V6 force vs nimbleness

[Petrus]

Performance and sports cars are surprisingly tricky concepts.

For some, no doubt spoon fed by moto journalism, performance is speed and horse power.
For some a sports car needs to be foremostly nimble and fit for spirited driving.

The MR2 Roadster´s image has rather suffered from the former as Toyota never succeeded in properly selling the latter which was the design team´s thing.

Lotus illustrated the issue when they developed the Elise from a 120 hp propelled 750 kg go-kart with license plate to 400 hp, 1450 kg supercars, using the Toyota 2GR-FE V6 as power plant.

Now, Toyota never went that way, not even a single step. They never even dropped in the 2ZZ as that would stray from the principle, stating that more power would demand more mods like chassis reinforcement and and better brakes, meaning more weight etcetera, leading down an unwanted path.
The seemingly never ending forum quest for chassis bracing and TTE adding braces to even their very modest turbo power boost seem to proove the design team leader´s point.

This doés raises the véry interesting question; ´what happens if the Toyota V6 is dropped in the MR2 Roadster?´

What does it do for performance; in both power/speed and nimbleness/weight?
What does it do to the spirited driving; changing direction, balance, braking, etc.?

[1979scotte]

I really honestly don't think you loose anything from a handling point of view.
Currently driving a stock 1zz roadster with meister r and after market arb. It doesn't feel any nibbler to me.
Not that I claim to be the greatest driver or the most knowledgeable.

[JB21]

The extra weight at the rear will inevitably make it more snappy at the limit. Pretty sure it could be set up to manage though. Wider tyres, camber, aero etc..

I'd love to drive a 1zz, 2zz and v6 all with similar chassis mods back to back on track to see how they fair. I'd bet the 2zz would be the best compromise between the 3 as it still holds the stock weight distribution and kerb weight but with more hp and revs.

[Petrus]

I really honestly don't think you loose anything from a handling point of view.
Currently driving a stock 1zz roadster with meister r and after market arb. It doesn't feel any nibbler to me.
Not that I claim to be the greatest driver or the most knowledgeable.

There is very véry little comparative info out there. No measured weights I could find either.

I dó know, measured some differences resulting from taking 130-135 kilos óff. The difference in turning in and braking response is surprising. Especially the latter really surprised me.
I get a yearly reminder when I revert partly back for MoT ispection.

Comments that a 2ZZ needs extra bracing more than the 1ZZ are rife so the extra V6 torque/hp must have more effect on the chassis. I (sofar) only read comments on the effect of the extra torque on the (smooth) rate of progress of the car.

[cptspaulding]

They never even dropped in the 2ZZ as that would stray from the principle, stating that more power would demand more mods like chassis reinforcement and and better brakes

I thought it was a gentleman's agreement with Lotus that precluded using the 2zz in the MR2.

[1979scotte]

My car when it was just a V6 was corner weighted at 1070kg.
A FL AC HT car isn't much lighter.

[Petrus]

The extra weight at the rear will inevitably make it more snappy at the limit. Pretty sure it could be set up to manage though. Wider tyres, camber, aero etc..

I'd love to drive a 1zz, 2zz and v6 all with similar chassis mods back to back on track to see how they fair. I'd bet the 2zz would be the best compromise between the 3 as it still holds the stock weight distribution and jerb weight but with more hp and revs.

The ´track´ bit being the catch here. I bet that on most tracks the V6 would éasily have the legs of the 2ZZ.
Track comparisons are very misleading. See the track orientated shock/springs/ride height on real world roads.

Real life is different. The véry close shave I had this morning p.e. would have been a swiped front corner in OEM trim and that is just shed weight.
I feel confident about this as I part reverted back to OEM for MoT on Friday and than re-modded Saturday. I would nót have slowed down/ swerved enough in Friday´s trim.

[Petrus]

They never even dropped in the 2ZZ as that would stray from the principle, stating that more power would demand more mods like chassis reinforcement and and better brakes

I thought it was a gentleman's agreement with Lotus that precluded using the 2zz in the MR2.

Possible but imo Toyota would ony have agreed to that if they had no other plan anyway. The number of engines sold to Lotus is marginal in the light of how many Toyota produces.
The statements from the head engineer are very specific about the power.

[Petrus]

My car when it was just a V6 was corner weighted at 1070kg.
A FL AC HT car isn't much lighter.

Thanks!!!

My pfl is registered as 1060 kg on the vehicle tech docs. That is official weight with full tank, tools/spare wheel, no driver.

[JB21]

The extra weight at the rear will inevitably make it more snappy at the limit. Pretty sure it could be set up to manage though. Wider tyres, camber, aero etc..

I'd love to drive a 1zz, 2zz and v6 all with similar chassis mods back to back on track to see how they fair. I'd bet the 2zz would be the best compromise between the 3 as it still holds the stock weight distribution and jerb weight but with more hp and revs.

The ´track´ bit being the catch here. I bet that on most tracks the V6 would éasily have the legs of the 2ZZ.
Track comparisons are very misleading. See the track orientated shock/springs/ride height on real world roads.

Real life is different. The véry close shave I had this morning p.e. would have been a swiped front corner in OEM trim and that is just shed weight.
I feel confident about this as I part reverted back to OEM for MoT on Friday and than re-modded Saturday. I would nót have slowed down/ swerved enough in Friday´s trim.

I just meant on track as in taking the car to and beyond the limit to gauge a real understanding of the differences.

On the road the differences would be minimal as scott says.

Also never said the 2zz would be quicker, but the best compromise in keeping the stock underpinnings.

[1979scotte]

The extra weight at the rear will inevitably make it more snappy at the limit. Pretty sure it could be set up to manage though. Wider tyres, camber, aero etc..

I'd love to drive a 1zz, 2zz and v6 all with similar chassis mods back to back on track to see how they fair. I'd bet the 2zz would be the best compromise between the 3 as it still holds the stock weight distribution and kerb weight but with more hp and revs.

Dont really want to get into the whole which engine is better debate again. We all have our favourite.

Its well known I'm not a 2zz fan and think a mild 1zz turbo is far superior.
Also I'm not a track guy so 10 10ths on the limit handling isn't an issue to me.
On the sort of roads I drive my V6 feels less skittish than the TF I'm currently driving but this could be down to tyres alignment etc.
The best MR2 I've been in was @ChrisGB 2gr.
Followed by @KRAMSNEHPETS 2zz rotrex.
If I was to do it all over again I'd try to be happy like @Ardent with a tte turbo and fresh stock suspension.

[1979scotte]

My car when it was just a V6 was corner weighted at 1070kg.
A FL AC HT car isn't much lighter.

Thanks!!!

My pfl is registered as 1060 kg on the vehicle tech docs. That is official weight with full tank, tools/spare wheel, no driver.

This was with half tank and spare wheel but no tools or jack I don't think.

[AdamR28]

For me, less weight wins every time, everywhere. Then you don't need as much power.

I think consumerism is responsible for us being made to want more, faster, bigger, 'better' - and not just when it comes to cars..

[Topdownman]

I havent driven a stock car for 5 yrs so cant really remember the driving sensations but when I got the car back I didnt notice any difference in handling etc as that was a concern.

I just looked up the weight of the engines on-line which shows 135 kg for the 1ZZ and 158 kg for the 1MZ.

I thought it was a lot more so I am pleased!

As Scott says, dont want to get into a debate about which is best but I would just say that if you want to go V6, I dont think that a loss of handling or nimbleness would be a con in my view.

[Petrus]

This was with half tank and spare wheel but no tools or jack I don't think.

1070 is a véry good weight and more so with half a tank load plus stape.
The 2GR is an extremely light package.

[Petrus]

For me, less weight wins every time, everywhere. Then you don't need as much power.

I think consumerism is responsible for us being made to want more, faster, bigger, 'better' - and not just when it comes to cars..

I have my own idea where it went/goes wrong concerning cars and that is motor journalists basically writing what pays the bills and the manufacturers want bigger = beter because more expensive = more revenue.
Take Lotus again. Look at the new price of the original Elise and look at the current crop; what will net them more?

As to the MR2 I´d lóve to be able to shed some more weight but now stuck and big bills items. Behind those on the list is the TRD supercharger kit.
That said, a lightened car with a 2GR... That is an áwsome lot of smooth engine extra for surprisingly little weight penealty. Ok, add some braces. Maybe ditch the rag top and bolt down the hard top with Snelbaards brackets.

[1979scotte]

I havent driven a stock car for 5 yrs so cant really remember the driving sensations but when I got the car back I didnt notice any difference in handling etc as that was a concern.

I just looked up the weight of the engines on-line which shows 135 kg for the 1ZZ and 158 kg for the 1MZ.

I thought it was a lot more so I am pleased!

As Scott says, dont want to get into a debate about which is best but I would just say that if you want to go V6, I dont think that a loss of handling or nimbleness would be a con in my view.

Dont forget you've  got an S54 box same as me and thats a bit heavier than a C series box.

[1979scotte]

I havent driven a stock car for 5 yrs so cant really remember the driving sensations but when I got the car back I didnt notice any difference in handling etc as that was a concern.

I just looked up the weight of the engines on-line which shows 135 kg for the 1ZZ and 158 kg for the 1MZ.

I thought it was a lot more so I am pleased!

As Scott says, dont want to get into a debate about which is best but I would just say that if you want to go V6, I dont think that a loss of handling or nimbleness would be a con in my view.

Dont forget you've  got an S54 box same as me and thats a bit heavier than a C series box.

This was with half tank and spare wheel but no tools or jack I don't think.

1070 is a véry good weight and more so with half a tank load plus stape.
The 2GR is an extremely light package.

Mine is 1mz 2gr is a bit heavier but has 70 more bhp and 50 more ftlb. The 3mz is my favourite but you don't get them in the UK.

[1979scotte]

1zzfe - 224 lbs (dry)
2zzge - 253 lbs (dry)
3sgte - 421 lbs


V6
1mzfe non vvti, 348lb
1mzfe w/ vvti, 346 lb
3mzfe, 351 lb
3vzfe 469 lb
2grfe, 359 lb

Here are some engine weights.
Guess the iron block motors.

The 2gr is only 11lbs heavier than my 1mz.
Please remember this is not the complete picture you need a gearbox swap too.
And with a 2gr most people go for an E153 and thats a beast of a box.

[jvanzyl]

I reckon old @Marc got it right with the 2AR idea.. bit more grunt but comparable weight..

[1979scotte]

I reckon old @Marc got it right with the 2AR idea.. bit more grunt but comparable weight..

Its toquey I'll give it that

[Carolyn]

I have, on the premises:

a stock PFL 1zz JDM with low ratio gearbox and LSD.  It has fresh standard shocks an springs. (Edit: Plus under bracing and strut bracing.)

A stock PFL 1zz supercharged with stock suspension. With Mattbrace

A (don't know how I got it!!) 1MZ V6 with a Rotrex supercharger, coil-overs and adjustable rear arms. With matt brace and FL front under brace.

At some point I might just drive them all, back-to-back on the same day and I'll report the comparisons.

At least it won't be guesswork and opinions without the evidence.

[Joesson]

That's a 3 car play off , perhaps this sums it up:
Some caution advised as Anglo Saxon language used:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZAe2o83w9k

[Topdownman]

A Carolyn grouptest!

Sounds like a plan to answer the original question.

It seems quite hard to confirm the actual weights of the engines and gearboxes on line as just been having a look at this again. One source quotes the 1ZZ dry weight as 102 kgs (2ZZ 115kgs) so presumably the 135kg I quoted above was the engine and gearbox combined so that would be 33kgs for the std gearbox?

This probably means that the 158kgs includes the std auto 1MZ gearbox so that doesnt help much if so!

All I could find on the weight of the S54 was some guy in the states putting one on his bathroom scales at 84.5 llbs (38.3 kgs)!

So about 5kg more in the gearbox but no answer on the 1MZ engine alone weight sadly.

Will wait for C's findings!

[Petrus]

A (don't know how I got it!!) 1MZ V6 with a Rotrex supercharger, coil-overs and adjustable rear arms. With matt brace and FL front under brace.

Beejeezus, thát will have some torque!!!
Is that gear all entered in the MoT tech specs?

Looking forward to that ´one day´!