V6 force vs nimbleness

[1979scotte]

A (don't know how I got it!!) 1MZ V6 with a Rotrex supercharger, coil-overs and adjustable rear arms. With matt brace and FL front under brace.

Beejeezus, thát will have some torque!!!
Is that gear all entered in the MoT tech specs?

Looking forward to that ´one day´!

We live in the UK just tell your insurance company and thats it.
None of this silly euro red tape. 😜

[Petrus]

A (don't know how I got it!!) 1MZ V6 with a Rotrex supercharger, coil-overs and adjustable rear arms. With matt brace and FL front under brace.

Beejeezus, thát will have some torque!!!
Is that gear all entered in the MoT tech specs?

Looking forward to that ´one day´!

We live in the UK just tell your insurance company and thats it.
None of this silly euro red tape. 😜

Was ´afraid´ of that.
I´d consider buying it with the mods entered in the vehicle specs. and vetted by the UK MoT. That is the loop hole for registration here. Well, till 31 Dec. 24.00 hours...

[1979scotte]

A (don't know how I got it!!) 1MZ V6 with a Rotrex supercharger, coil-overs and adjustable rear arms. With matt brace and FL front under brace.

Beejeezus, thát will have some torque!!!
Is that gear all entered in the MoT tech specs?

Looking forward to that ´one day´!

We live in the UK just tell your insurance company and thats it.
None of this silly euro red tape. 😜

Was ´afraid´ of that.
I´d consider buying it with the mods entered in the vehicle specs. and vetted by the UK MoT. That is the loop hole for registration here. Well, till 31 Dec. 24.00 hours...

Passes mot every year and you can just send off the for to the DVLA to tell them the engine has been changed by a qualified competent person.

[Ardent]

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[Ardent]

I reckon old @Marc got it right with the 2AR idea.. bit more grunt but comparable weight..

Lost track. Is that still work in progress or job done now?

[1979scotte]

I reckon old @Marc got it right with the 2AR idea.. bit more grunt but comparable weight..

Lost track. Is that still work in progress or job done now?

The more I look at it the more I'm not so sure about it.
Its sort of a half way house between 1zz and 1mz. It adds more weight than you would think too if wiki motors is to be believed.
Obviously if you could get your hands on the 8ar factory turbo engine that's a different kettle of ferrets.

[Topdownman]

Getting a bit off topic here but it seems to me that engine swops only work when there is a suitable donor engine that is readily available and cheap.

The engines that have been going into 2s are seemingly neither of those now in the uk.

Just had a look for Camrys, the cheapest was £2195 for a 2002! Lexus rx300 was £1995 (surprisingly cheaper) which is far too much to my mind. I am sure its much different in the states though.

[ChrisGB]

This doés raises the véry interesting question; ´what happens if the Toyota V6 is dropped in the MR2 Roadster?´

What does it do for performance; in both power/speed and nimbleness/weight?
What does it do to the spirited driving; changing direction, balance, braking, etc.?

Well, I've been there and done it. I started with the stock face lift car which I drove for many miles, which was then fitted with a coilover kit (4Kg front / 6Kg rear spring rates), a full suite of Corky chassis bracing, then went turbo with around 235bhp and lb/ft at the crank, then engine and gearbox swap to a race tuned 2GR-FE and E153 gearbox, 300bhp/260lb/ft measured at the wheels, first with Toyota viscous differential, then later, Quaife ATB differential. I've also driven a few other roadsters.

Regarding weight differences, it all depends on where the weight is. A few examples of how different things affect the handling:

Bigger, heavier wheels and tyres make the car feel more planted, but also less agile, not less able to change direction, but somehow the car feels heavier footed, doesn't glide across the surface like the stock car does, doesn't respond to small inputs as well when the car is up on its toes, loses it's delicacy.

When I had the turbo setup, I had Pete at PTR Exhausts fab me up a cat back system that weighed 3.2Kg using thin wall tube and a carbon silencer. Removing the exhaust weight from high up and behind the axle line made the car seem more easy to settle at the rear end after turn in, subtle but different.

The V6 swap added a lot of weight, but in the same place as the previous engine. The differences in handling where not quite what I expected. Expectation was that it would be a handful. It had a short wheel base, no electronic traction control, no stability program. Truth is, it felt remarkably like the standard (well, braced and coilovered) car. Heavy trail braking into corners, no problem if you wanted to play that game. Delicacy and feedback through and coming out of corners, all present and correct, but with a lot more traction. Near limit adjustability, easier than the stock setup with more progressive transition into oversteer and a wider operating range of slip angle (not drift mind you) at sane speeds too. High speed stability (and it could go to high speeds very easily) rock solid well past the end of the speedo. Acceleration, comfortably under 4 seconds to 60mph with an easy going 1500rpm launch. Midrange acceleration, generally as much as you wanted any time you wanted it.

Subjectively, the extra acceleration and the V6 noise where really enjoyable. The extra punch, being so controllable, meant the car was the consummate B road toy. You could push traction as hard as you could push cornering, adding an extra dimension of challenge. Of course, one needed to be switched on if you where to go pressing the right hand pedal all the way down, and in the wet on R888R tyres, spinning up the rears in 3rd or 4th happened if the surface was not good, so you had to pay attention. The arrival of the Quaife ATB really helped with traction, but it was still very much a pay attention car. I would say that it was the most enjoyable car I have ever driven down a B road, permagrin (rictus at times) was guaranteed.

What was lost in the pursuit of the performance? Well, not any aspect of the handling, that's for sure. If pressed to summarise, I would say that handling retained the standard car's delicacy and added further options for interaction and predictability.  NVH took a major hit with solid engine mounts, but much of the control and feel improvements over the stock car, I think, stemmed from having the engine's mass controlled by the dampers instead of bouncing about in the engine bay on soft rubber blocks. Fuel economy, lets not mention that. Oh, and money, a lot of money. Worth every penny and my only regret was selling it.

[1979scotte]

Personally, I'd prefer V6 3.0 vs either TTE turbo or 2zz swap due to the increased low end torque. I never go over 5k rpm in my car, so wouldn't benefit from 2zz in the first place, I'm always either low or mid range, plus V6 is lauded as much more reliable and bulletproof engine (read too many 2zzs explode). IIRC the weight difference is 50kg due to having to fabricate and weld additional supports in the engine bay.

Sadly doing this in my country is impossible, would need to buy an already modded example (with V5C updated for the swap) and no motors dealer in UK I've seen has ever been selling an engine-swaped MR2.

You're not the first person who's said that they don't use the full rev range of the 1zz.
I find this quite strange as it means you aren't using the engine to its full potential.
A V6 or a turbo would be good for you all that mid range torque means reving it out isn't necessary on a tte turbo could even be considered a waste of time.

[Petrus]

Thanks a lót Chris.

I have gone lightweight wheels and it is what you describe with heavier ones but inverse. Definitely noticeable.

Yes, the OEM muffler is a heavy lump and easy to shed 10 kg on it. As it sits high and behínd!! the rear axle the effect ´weighs´ more that the 10 kilos. Removing the 10 kilo is both 10 liko less at the rear but has the effect of 1 more at the front. Ok, still only 10 resp 1 kg but it doés affect the balance. It is a bit like a few kilo only on the rear luggage carrier on a bicycle. You cannot feel it going up or down a slope but you wíll when changing direction.

Your observation on needing to be turned ON with the increased V6 torque has two sides; much more thrill and fun, as much narrower safety margin. I do miss torque about daily here with the steep inclines all over the place  but am pleased with the docile power of the 1ZZ several times more daily. I have the Torsen type OEM lsd and very happy with that even with the mild 1ZZ ´power´.

@1979scotte I do use the rev range. Not all the time ofcourse as most of the time you don´t gás it but several times daily yes. The no-muffler being so loud keeps me a bit more sane ;-) as I definitely rev/trash it more on OEM exhaust.

[1979scotte]

Thanks a lót Chris.

I have gone lightweight wheels and it is what you describe with heavier ones but inverse. Definitely noticeable.

Yes, the OEM muffler is a heavy lump and easy to shed 10 kg on it. As it sits high and behínd!! the rear axle the effect ´weighs´ more that the 10 kilos. Removing the 10 kilo is both 10 liko less at the rear but has the effect of 1 more at the front. Ok, still only 10 resp 1 kg but it doés affect the balance. It is a bit like a few kilo only on the rear luggage carrier on a bicycle. You cannot feel it going up or down a slope but you wíll when changing direction.

Your observation on needing to be turned ON with the increased V6 torque has two sides; much more thrill and fun, as much narrower safety margin. I do miss torque about daily here with the steep inclines all over the place  but am pleased with the docile power of the 1ZZ several times more daily. I have the Torsen type OEM lsd and very happy with that even with the mild 1ZZ ´power´.

@1979scotte I do use the rev range. Not all the time ofcourse as most of the time you don´t gás it but several times daily yes. The no-muffler being so loud keeps me a bit more sane ;-) as I definitely rev/trash it more on OEM exhaust.

I wasn't referring to you it was mr2noob.

You aren't the centre of the universe you know 🤪

[Petrus]

I wasn't referring to you it was mr2noob.

You aren't the centre of the universe you know 🤪

I did not think you were...
Just thought to add that loud pipes save revs too apart from lives.

[1979scotte]

You're not the first person who's said that they don't use the full rev range of the 1zz.
I find this quite strange as it means you aren't using the engine to its full potential.
A V6 or a turbo would be good for you all that mid range torque means reving it out isn't necessary on a tte turbo could even be considered a waste of time.

The fault for that lies with my father who would always start yelling when i was a young driver if i went into higher RPM that he believed was necessary (aka over 3k rpm). So, even though I've been driving a long time and he almost never drives with me (he's too uncomfortable in the 2) it's like I have him on my shoulder screaming in my ear. xD

Plus, it's a 15 year old engine that's already drinking oil and when I rev it REALLY likes drinking fuel. xD

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

[Petrus]

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

Remember the Lotus 907 engine? It was dubbed  "The Torqueless Wonder".

[1979scotte]

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

Remember the Lotus 907 engine? It was dubbed  "The Torqueless Wonder".

No had to Google it.
Not that old.

[Petrus]

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

Remember the Lotus 907 engine? It was dubbed  "The Torqueless Wonder".

No had to Google it.
Not that old.

Made in an updated guise til  ´99.

[Joesson]

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

Remember the Lotus 907 engine? It was dubbed  "The Torqueless Wonder".

No had to Google it.
Not that old.

I am! But still needed to DuckDuck it.
Not usually a problem with a turbo diesel as is my daily and at £20 pa road tax that doesn't even warrant SORN!

[Topdownman]

Dont buy a 2zz or a k20 thats all i can say.

If I was rich enough to afford a K20 swap I might go instead for getting a whole S2000 next to my MR2 instead. xD

Would you be allowed to add a torque amp electric supercharger to your car?

[Petrus]

Would you be allowed to add a torque amp electric supercharger to your car?

That is functionally almost like Nitrous Oxide.

[Topdownman]

Still waiting to see some reviews about the torque amp but wasnt sure if this was a mod you can do in Europe?

It seems to offer a lot of benefits so I am hoping the driving experience is a good one and that it is a real alternative to the traditional turbo.

[Petrus]

Still waiting to see some reviews about the torque amp but wasnt sure if this was a mod you can do in Europe?

Not legally no.
Not without having it homologated which is véry complicated and not cheap.

It seems to offer a lot of benefits so I am hoping the driving experience is a good one and that it is a real alternative to the traditional turbo.

No, not an alternative for turbo/supercharger/rotrex AT ALL. As I wrote, only an alternative for Nox.

[1979scotte]

Still waiting to see some reviews about the torque amp but wasnt sure if this was a mod you can do in Europe?

Not legally no.
Not without having it homologated which is véry complicated and not cheap.

It seems to offer a lot of benefits so I am hoping the driving experience is a good one and that it is a real alternative to the traditional turbo.

No, not an alternative for turbo/supercharger/rotrex AT ALL. As I wrote, only an alternative for Nox.

Is that because the power boost will be short lived?
Can the battery only power it for a few seconds?

[Petrus]

Is that because the power boost will be short lived?
Can the battery only power it for a few seconds?

That ánd it is not a contiuously ´on´ system. You need to swithc it to throttle and an on/off swith with only very limited gradual power boost.

[1979scotte]

Is that because the power boost will be short lived?
Can the battery only power it for a few seconds?

That ánd it is not a contiuously ´on´ system. You need to swithc it to throttle and an on/off swith with only very limited gradual power boost.

I'm sure its the future.
With a standalone ecu it could work really well.

[Petrus]

I'm sure its the future.
With a standalone ecu it could work really well.

I would say wait for that future to arrive.
The idea is tops. It ´just´ needs variable input from the tps.

It must also be noted that it either needs a by pass or ´robs´ power when not it use.

Still some glitches to be solved.

Till then imo a mechanical supercharger is the simplest, a turbo the most efficient and Nox the most hilarious.