Sway bars, anti roll bars

[Petrus]

I know what they do, I understand how to tune them.
The question is how the little Spyder responds specífically.

Also the Sportivo kit goes to 23 front and 17 rear wheras Whiteline offer 22 front and 18 rear. Regardless of their respective stiffness, the diameter has the ´same´ relative effect; thicker is stiffer.

Overall experience with the anti roll bars tells me that I might want a slightly stiffer one at the rear as I like a bit looser réar end.
However, I do not want to assume that Toyata plays it safe with the TRD set up with OEM balance on the side of understeer.
Thís I why I turn to the first hand experience here.
How does the little Spyder respond to sway bar tuning?

Here a very informative thread from the forum, but I always want to know more, sorry...
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=67387.25

[Petrus]

A perspective:
The diameters of the various available options.
They are afaik all soled bars so comparable.
It must be noted thet the stiffness increases with the square of the diameter increase.

                        Front/rear
Stock bars are  20/15mm       100/100
TRD Sportivo   23/17mm       175/165
Cusco               22/18mm       150/180-260 (the front is not adjustable and relatively soft because of a longer arm)
Whiteline         22/18mm        146 - 175/ 165 - 207 - 257 - 316
Intrax               25/22mm        244/463
Addco             25.4/22.2mm   261/481

May do the delta in stiffness later, now enjoying a cold vermouth and hot erotic writing from Antequera gf 

Added the stiffness as an index number with stock as 100. The numbers do not reflect most being adjustable; thus being set to a bit softer/harder than the index number.
The numbers are surprising really.
The crux with ARBs is their balance, their stiffness relative to eachother. 
It seems that the TRD set is aiming at the stock balance; just a bit less body roll.
The others are increasingly towards úndersteer! Bar Cusco which goes to oversteer.

To add to the weirdness, the Spirit MR-S was set up with a stock front bar and a Cusco rear which is supposed to be very stiff (not found the diameters yet). This is going for óversteer and that is what Asano san says.

Found Cusco bars. The Spirit car thus has 100 front - 260 rear. Totally the opposite way to most settings.

[Petrus]

Oh and one footnote.
A 4 hole adjustment really is an 8 way adjustable bar.
There is no need to move a hole at both sides at the same time; it is perfectly ok to go one hole at óne   side only. Thus you have an intermediate setting at your disposal.

[Nvy]

A perspective:
The diameters of the various available options.
They are afaik all soled bars so comparable.
It must be noted thet the stiffness increases with the square of the diameter increase.

Stock bars are 15/20mm       100/100
TRD Sportivo   17/23mm       165/175
Cusco               18/22             150/180-260 (the front is not adjustable and relatively soft because of a longer arm)
Whiteline         18/22mm       207/146
Intrax               22/25mm        463/244
Addco             22.2/25.4mm   481/261

May do the delta in stiffness later, now enjoying a cold vermouth and hot erotic writing from Antequera gf 

Added the stiffness as an index number with stock as 100. The numbers do not reflect most being adjustable; thus being set to a bit softer/harder than the index number.
The numbers are surprising really.
The crux with ARBs is their balance, their stiffness relative to eachother. 
It seems that the TRD set is aiming at the stock balance; just a bit less body roll.
The others are increasingly towards úndersteer! Bar Cusco which goes to oversteer.

To add to the weirdness, the Spirit MR-S was set up with a stock front bar and a Cusco rear which is supposed to be very stiff (not found the diameters yet). This is going for óversteer and that is what Asano san says.

Found Cusco bars. The Spirit car thus has 100 front - 260 rear. Totally the opposite way to most settings.

Its not weird at all, they want to rotate the car with their foot and are prepared to catch it at all times. That way they can steer faster. I have watched one of their videos and the guy was facing the wall in 50% of the cases and steered the car with his foot. They have wider tires too, like 255 or something.

[Petrus]

Its not weird at all, they want to rotate the car with their foot and are prepared to catch it at all times.

I get that for Touge as on the mountain tracks here oversteer is something you can catch/modulate but understeer ... not.

They have wider tires too, like 255 or something.

Wider rubber indeed changes the balance. The FL´s slightly wider rear illustrates that in being a bit more understeered.

Btw, my car is equiped with lsd so will not loose traction with one wheel losing it.

[Dev]

 Just answering the PM you sent me about the Whiteline sway bar. 

 The front is 2 position adjustable and the rear is 4 position adjustable. You want more adjustability for the rear because that is the most sensitive. 

 Before any of this people get sway bars for the wrong reasons. The purpose of the sway bars is for coarse adjustability for other variables you cant easily compensate for and to make a car tolerable for the street by being able to use softer springs for comfort or for a less then ideal road surfaces. A stiff car is not good for handling or comfort but a necessary evil which makes sway bars a good compromise solution.

The execution of using sway bars is dependent on the spring rates of your dampers and the tires as a whole system. Just throwing sway bars to the mix without taking into consideration your other mods can make things worse. If you want to get sway bars get the ones that have the most amount of adjustability to tune it. 

The Sportivo bars were tuned as a complete system with the struts. You can use separate components in the system and improve on it but going outside of what the engineers intended will require some trial and error and that is why adjustability is key. 

[Petrus]

The Sportivo bars were tuned as a complete system with the struts. You can use separate components in the system and improve on it but going outside of what the engineers intended will require some trial and error and that is why adjustability is key. 

Thanks Dev.

This is why I decided nót mounting stiffer ones, in effect upsetting the stock set up.

Now I am going to Sportivo dampers/springs I think I should reconsider the sway bars as those were part of the balanced kit and yes, best the ones adjustable closest to the TRD set up.

[ralf321]

Hello,

does anybody know the thickness of the TTE (=Eibach) ARBs ?

BR
Ralf

[Petrus]

Hello,

does anybody know the thickness of the TTE (=Eibach) ARBs ?

BR
Ralf

22 and 17, both three settings.

Here the TüV approval 2004:
http://www.mr2-tech.de/wbb2/index.php/Attachment/234-TTE-Stabilisatoren-AM27914-MR2-pdf/

Would be great if they were still for sale.... Eibach does not offer them either.

[ralf321]

Hello Petrus,

they (Eibach) would still produce them, you only have to order 20 sets.
Price would be around €390.-/ set. I once tried to organize a GB here in Germany, but could not get enough people to order them.

BR
Ralf

[Petrus]

Buenas Ralf.
The TTE/Eibach is basically covered by Whiteline with the latter having an extra adjustment at the rear.

Both the TTE and the Sportivo bars were thus sold under the Toyota banner. TRD USA sold the TTE ones as TRD bars in the States. The reason being the three way adjustment whereas the Sportivo bars have none.

[Petrus]

The rain is costing me money. With the bridge in the garage swamped, I can´t do anything to my car but as I was prepared to, had the itch and thus pushed the button on a set of Whiteline sway bars. Delivery 5-6 weeks (cheapskate shipping option) so plenty of time to get the Sportivo shocks mounted and get accustomed to them.

[tets]

I ordered a set of Whiteline's in the middle of September and they are not due until the end of November over here - not in a massive rush as I have plenty other things i'm doing but looking forward to testing them.

[Petrus]

I ordered a set of Whiteline's in the middle of September and they are not due until the end of November over here - not in a massive rush as I have plenty other things i'm doing but looking forward to testing them.

Fingers crossed the eta I have will be met then.
Not in a great hurry either as I am a great believer of getting accustomed to changes before moving on to the next.

The problem with receiving them late in the year is that testing circumstances will be iffy. Over here most of the year is sunny, like 300 days/year, and warm tarmac.

Looking forward to your experiences with them.

[tets]

I ordered a set of Whiteline's in the middle of September and they are not due until the end of November over here - not in a massive rush as I have plenty other things i'm doing but looking forward to testing them.

Fingers crossed the eta I have will be met then.
Not in a great hurry either as I am a great believer of getting accustomed to changes before moving on to the next.

The problem with receiving them late in the year is that testing circumstances will be iffy. Over here most of the year is sunny, like 300 days/year, and warm tarmac.

Looking forward to your experiences with them.

you may have seen a few of the lads at a twisty little circuit called 3 Sisters over here - I'm a member of a motor club that runs events there and I can hire it for testing for £90 per hour or £300 for a half day. Plus I need to have a cold wet set up as well as a dry warm set up so will serve a purpose whatever the weather

[Petrus]

you may have seen a few of the lads at a twisty little circuit called 3 Sisters over here - I'm a member of a motor club that runs events there and I can hire it for testing for £90 per hour or £300 for a half day. Plus I need to have a cold wet set up as well as a dry warm set up so will serve a purpose whatever the weather

Is your´s equiped with lsd?

[AdamR28]

I ordered a set of Whiteline's in the middle of September and they are not due until the end of November over here - not in a massive rush as I have plenty other things i'm doing but looking forward to testing them.

Where did you order from? Mine came next day weirdly, just a few weeks ago.

I'd be up for some 3 Sisters action if you need numbers to make a half day / hour viable.

[tets]

you may have seen a few of the lads at a twisty little circuit called 3 Sisters over here - I'm a member of a motor club that runs events there and I can hire it for testing for £90 per hour or £300 for a half day. Plus I need to have a cold wet set up as well as a dry warm set up so will serve a purpose whatever the weather

Is your´s equiped with lsd?

It is yes - I also have a JDM "special" LSD box on the floor to go in at sometime

[tets]

I ordered a set of Whiteline's in the middle of September and they are not due until the end of November over here - not in a massive rush as I have plenty other things i'm doing but looking forward to testing them.

Where did you order from? Mine came next day weirdly, just a few weeks ago.

I'd be up for some 3 Sisters action if you need numbers to make a half day / hour viable.

I ordered them from Whiteline UK up in Scotland. It did say they were waiting stock when I ordered but no rush - plus I wanted contact to try and get there printing work!!

3 sisters is a club price for exclusive test days so I can pretty much go when I want as long as they have the marshals, medics etc on site

I was wondering if they'd rent the track for an exclusive day but you have to have the MSUK license and overalls etc for the above so they are insured by MSUK as far as I understand it - otherwise it's got to be one of the organised track days that have their own insurance unfortunately

[AdamR28]

Haha, nice idea!

Things have changed a bit since I last went for a test session then... rocked up, popped £60 cash in someone hand, they said they'd give me a shout in an hour when my time was up. That was it!

[tets]

I think they still do that type of thing but the club one is unlimited track on and off when you want. Out for a few timed laps, in change settings and out again!

[tatieu]

I have Cusco sway bars.
The rear is at 260% and my car is very balanced.
For the Spirit's MRS, all of the setup is specific like the dampers, the offset wheels...
All is important at this level.

But I was very curious to try more strenght for the sway bars for trackdays like Intrax or Addco.
But the price is expensive just for trying...

[Petrus]

I have Cusco sway bars.
The rear is at 260% and my car is very balanced.
For the Spirit's MRS, all of the setup is specific like the dampers, the offset wheels...
All is important at this level.

But I was very curious to try more strenght for the sway bars for trackdays like Intrax or Addco.
But the price is expensive just for trying...

Depending on the angle of the linking rods you could try make a clamp adding an extra hole further inside.

Btw. it baffles me that you have the rear at 260% like Asano san and find the car balanced whereas many prefer one sófter than the front, even delete it at the rear!
That shoúld on comparable tyres be oversteer versus understeer, both on opposite sides of the almost neutral OEM bar setting.

I am getting really curious to try.  Will have to wait a ´bit´ though :-(

[tets]

It's been a while for me but when I was rallying I always set my cars up for oversteer. I'm really interested in how the MR2 will respond as I prefer catching the back than the front. If I can get it to turn in I'm of the opinion I can deal with the rear.
This has been with front and four wheel drive but the only engine over the back wheels car i've ever had was a 911 road car but I did used to drive that with the back end swinging

Guess it's just what you're comfortable with as a driver as to how you set it up

[Petrus]

It's been a while for me but when I was rallying I always set my cars up for oversteer. I'm really interested in how the MR2 will respond as I prefer catching the back than the front. If I can get it to turn in I'm of the opinion I can deal with the rear.
This has been with front and four wheel drive but the only engine over the back wheels car i've ever had was a 911 road car but I did used to drive that with the back end swinging

Guess it's just what you're comfortable with as a driver as to how you set it up

As I wrote above, I am more comfortable without understeer but regardless I find the spread in sway bar stiffness front and rear unbelievable.
I can get the reach of stíffness but not thát stiff ut front with a lot less rear versus the reverse. Intrax/Adco are réally understeered whereas Cusco is as much over steered and Spirit ups that with the OEM up front. Thát wide a spread I don´t get.
The Spirit car nmay have wider rubber but it maintains the tyre stagger; 225 front, 245/255 rear so the sway bar balance is still as per OEM tyres.

Anyway, looking forward to play with it myself.