'00 track car

Started by AJRFulton, December 2, 2020, 16:48

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AJRFulton

Since I was about 10, I wanted to do motorsport. However, a combination of life, time and money has always gotten in the way. Had always had some quick road cars (although still never owned a FWD car as my driver, always AWD or RWD), but never made the step onto the track.

Anyway, newly single and finally in a conventional job.... At the age of 35 I finally decided it was now or never. I sat my ARDS test and got looking for something. I was doing some work at Hinkley Point power station in the South West and this car appeared in the classified from Wiltshire. Went and seen it, liked it, bought it in 2018.

Spent winter 2018/19 giving the car a bit of a freshen up, got the panels resprayed so the car was all black.



how the car looked when I got it



back from the spray shop

So from there I did my first ever track day in February 2019, and entered Superlap Scotland Sprint series up here as a class F car (SLS works with power to weight ratio – all class F cars have roughly the same power to weight). First race weekend went well with the car finishing 3rd out of field of 16 cars – so was absolutely delighted with that for my first event (as I went in fearing finishing last)

Onto Croft and then this happened 3 laps into practicing:



free image hosting

Spun a bearing and that was Engine #1 ruined. The top end was still fine, but the block was pretty badly scored.

Anyway 2x other 2ZZ's went in just to get running – each with their own problems (head gasket, and bad knock). So I missed the next 5 rounds, and only got back running for rounds 7 and 8 (with my 4th engine).

After the debut season, I decided to get an engine built, well rather rebuilt using engine #4.



All went well, engine was making fantastic power across the range. Took it to Knockhill and was very happy with the initial performance during a track day. Car still needed set up, but the times were already matching my best – was confident I built a car that was going to be very competitive. Got the car set up, and on another track day it was surpassing my vmax from the previous year - but weather meant I couldn't do like for like comparisions.

Then Covid happened....... And the season got pushed back until August. So took the car out for a track night on the eve of the new season and..... this happened.




A valve had snapped on the stem, about 5mm below the collet and well, that was my newly built head and block wrecked.

So, off to the breakers to get another engine – found 1 cheaply with 140k on the clock, and it got me running for the final round of my 2nd season. However it isn't making power and is tired - my 6th engine.

So the plans for the winter.......

Currently have a big parcel on the way over from Monkeywrench racing with some important goodies, and few other parts on the way as well - so it's rebuild another engine.

Some attachments of the car until now.














1979scotte

Very unlucky indeed.
I can understand a couple of failures most 2zz have lived a hard life but what happened with the re built engine?
Was there no warranty?
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

AJRFulton

#2
Quote from: 1979scotte on December  2, 2020, 17:36Very unlucky indeed.
I can understand a couple of failures most 2zz have lived a hard life but what happened with the re built engine?
Was there no warranty?



Through my work I know people in metallurgy, so asked one of the guys to have a look at the failed valve. This wasn't a dropped valve in the classic sense, the actual stem had broken causing the valve to drop.

The verdict - metal fatigue failure on the valve stem brought on by a stress point, be that damage to the valve stem or a defect or an imperfection. Something had initiate the crack, probably at install or manufacture, and that had slowly progressed as the car ran until it failed. You can see it a bit in the above image, the crescent shaped ingress rings - which are typical of a stress fracture in metal



Car was ran in on a dyno, and no evidence of anything going wrong until a sudden and catastrophic failure.

Was a brand new Toyota OEM valve as well.

As for warranty, it's a race car. No evidence the builder got it wrong, and no chance Toyota are reimbursing you on a track car.

JB21

Rotten luck, fair play for keep going with it. I've had one 2zz failure and that was gutting, 5 failures though 😠

AJRFulton

Well the plus side of it is, I've became half decent at engine switches. Can get one done in about 4hrs now. Also have a lot of spare parts.

Roj

Jeezo, that is damn unlucky. I think most people would have thrown in the towel after the last one, good to see some determination to get it going well again.

Will be good to see it going full pelt up at KH next season.

AdamR28

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  2, 2020, 16:48

The money shot right there :D

That is some seriously bad luck with the engines - are any of the parts being carried over at all? Which sump are you using and are you checking the clearance between oil pickup and sump at each rebuild?

Hope you can get plenty of track miles in next year!

AJRFulton

#7
Quote from: AdamR28 on December  3, 2020, 09:29
Quote from: AJRFulton on December  2, 2020, 16:48

The money shot right there :D

That is some seriously bad luck with the engines - are any of the parts being carried over at all? Which sump are you using and are you checking the clearance between oil pickup and sump at each rebuild?

Hope you can get plenty of track miles in next year!

I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

What Santa is bringing is:

Carillo H Beam Rods
Mahle 12.3:1 Pistons
MWR flat face valves
MWR Springs and retainers
Ferrea Valve Locks
Knifed Crank Shaft
Full OEM gaskets
OEM Timing chain kit
Fully ARP studded

What is getting carried over from the old engine/box.

MWR Uprate Oil Pump
OEM Water Pump
OEM VVTi Sprocket
Stage 2 Piper Cams
Fidanza Aluminium Flywheel
OEM Coils
OEM injectors
Apexi FC ECU
As well as all the other peripheral bits.

Most of those parts have < 500 miles on them so....

Going to take one of the 3 heads I have and get an engineering shop to decide which is best and get them to give it a bit of a refurb. The block from the engine that had the head gasket blown is in very good condition and already been cleaned up - all well within the spec sheet data for cylinder bore.

Objective is to spend money to get an engine that is up to the rigours of racing. Not going for headline power, but engine response and durability.

Between the flywheel, crank and rods - it's about 6kg of saving over the stock engine on the bit that turns.

AJRFulton

Also had this failure which lead to getting a gearbox refurb.

One of the rivets in the clutch plate seemed to sheer, and that did quite a lot of damage. Gearbox was largely fine, except a hole punched though the bell housing. So needed welded up, so thought I may as well get it refurbed.

AdamR28

#9
Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 09:53I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

I did wonder what the photo of the oil cooler was showing - I very much doubt there is any airflow there, and I guess your test proves it. Unfortunately you are just lugging around extra weight, more potential failure points, and causing a drop in flow.

What oil temps are you seeing? How much clearance is there from bottom of sump to oil pickup?

I don't have direct experience with the Accusump (seems like a bit of a 'sticking plaster' to me) but I do know of people who have good success with them.

My experience with this sort of thing is that even if you have enough pressure, flow might be your issue as that does a significant part of the cooling...


Here's some of my 'base rules' gleaned from a few years of research and various failed (and race-winning!) engine builds. Apologies in advance if any of this is 'teaching you to suck eggs'!

- Oil pressure needs to be a minimum of 7psi per 1000rpm. More than this and you're wasting energy, less than this and you can run into trouble. In fact, more pressure adds extra heat to the oil as you're working it hard pushing it through all those galleries. For the 2ZZ in lift, I would want to see 50psi minimum climbing to 60psi at full chat. Idle pressure is largely inconsequential except for being an indicator of general engine clearances - 5psi is enough.

- The oil requirements for this size / rpm of engine will mean you need an absolute minimum of -8 (1/2") hose for the cooler, and that's if the runs are very short, and any connectors MUST be the swept type (https://www.thorite.co.uk/graphics_cache/b/a/30777-sp_jf049003cf-1-3-580.jpg). Longer runs I would go to -10.

- Any hoses are to be kept as short as possible to remove losses to both flow and pressure.

- Oil temp should sit steady, between 90'C and 120'C, depending on ambient. 130'C is ok for short periods with modern fully synth oils. Over 120'C, the internal parts of the engine will swell enough to start groaning against each other - losing power, creating even more heat, and speeding up wear.

- Keep it simple. More stuff = more weight, more chances of a leak and more chances of a pressure drop / loss. If a properly baffled and gated wet sump and no oil cooler, or the OE heat exchanger, does the job - stick with that.

- Throwing the kitchen sink at an engine is no guarantee of reliability - in fact I find OE parts are often better than aftermarket, providing you aren't asking the engine to do tons more RPM or make 30, 40, 50% more power than standard.

- Any machining should be done to OE spec tolerances, and use 'beardy blokes in a shed down a back lane' type machine shops, if you can find one. I've seen various 'race' engine builders do stuff slack as hell in order to 'make more power', only to have them look like a bag of spanners when opened up after only a season, or fail altogether much faster than this. Yes, you are using the engine hard, but providing temperatures are being kept within the right windows, this is only the usage the manufacturer intended and developed it for!

- Fit a brand new, OE oil pump every time - even if the cost seems horrendous.

- I agree that 'overbuilding' the engine and then keeping it to a safe (250-500rpm less than it 'could' spin at) rev limit is a good way to make it last. I have done that in the past with very good success - a few years of track days and sprinting from 130bhp/litre C20XE with nothing other than oil changes required. It was built to rev to 8500 but I kept the limiter at 8k.

As I said, sorry if any of that is already obvious, but hopefully there may be something there that makes you go 'ah-ha!' and can prevent another lost engine.


That clutch failure is properly weird. Maybe you should call the car Christine!

AJRFulton

#10
Quote from: AdamR28 on December  3, 2020, 15:35
Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 09:53I use the Elise Parts sump, as well as an Accusump with 25PSI discharge valve - so guaranteed 25 PSI oil pressure or I get a bright light on (as the accusump discharges) - that only happens when the engine has just came off track and is idling, pressure drops to about 15-20 PSI - Typical track pressure is 35-50 when up to speed. Oil cooler in there as well, although sceptical of the overall effectiveness of this. Noticing no difference to the temperature (oil temp reading from both sump and the inlet of the sandwich plate) from before. I even moved the sump sensor over to the outlet of the sandwich plate so taking a reading pre and post cooler - and both read the same number.

I did wonder what the photo of the oil cooler was showing - I very much doubt there is any airflow there, and I guess your test proves it. Unfortunately you are just lugging around extra weight, more potential failure points, and causing a drop in flow.

What oil temps are you seeing? How much clearance is there from bottom of sump to oil pickup?

I don't have direct experience with the Accusump (seems like a bit of a 'sticking plaster' to me) but I do know of people who have good success with them.

My experience with this sort of thing is that even if you have enough pressure, flow might be your issue as that does a significant part of the cooling...


Here's some of my 'base rules' gleaned from a few years of research and various failed (and race-winning!) engine builds. Apologies in advance if any of this is 'teaching you to suck eggs'!

- Oil pressure needs to be a minimum of 7psi per 1000rpm. More than this and you're wasting energy, less than this and you can run into trouble. In fact, more pressure adds extra heat to the oil as you're working it hard pushing it through all those galleries. For the 2ZZ in lift, I would want to see 50psi minimum climbing to 60psi at full chat. Idle pressure is largely inconsequential except for being an indicator of general engine clearances - 5psi is enough.

- The oil requirements for this size / rpm of engine will mean you need an absolute minimum of -8 (1/2") hose for the cooler, and that's if the runs are very short, and any connectors MUST be the swept type (https://www.thorite.co.uk/graphics_cache/b/a/30777-sp_jf049003cf-1-3-580.jpg). Longer runs I would go to -10.

- Any hoses are to be kept as short as possible to remove losses to both flow and pressure.

- Oil temp should sit steady, between 90'C and 120'C, depending on ambient. 130'C is ok for short periods with modern fully synth oils. Over 120'C, the internal parts of the engine will swell enough to start groaning against each other - losing power, creating even more heat, and speeding up wear.

- Keep it simple. More stuff = more weight, more chances of a leak and more chances of a pressure drop / loss. If a properly baffled and gated wet sump and no oil cooler, or the OE heat exchanger, does the job - stick with that.

- Throwing the kitchen sink at an engine is no guarantee of reliability - in fact I find OE parts are often better than aftermarket, providing you aren't asking the engine to do tons more RPM or make 30, 40, 50% more power than standard.

- Any machining should be done to OE spec tolerances, and use 'beardy blokes in a shed down a back lane' type machine shops, if you can find one. I've seen various 'race' engine builders do stuff slack as hell in order to 'make more power', only to have them look like a bag of spanners when opened up after only a season, or fail altogether much faster than this. Yes, you are using the engine hard, but providing temperatures are being kept within the right windows, this is only the usage the manufacturer intended and developed it for!

- Fit a brand new, OE oil pump every time - even if the cost seems horrendous.

- I agree that 'overbuilding' the engine and then keeping it to a safe (250-500rpm less than it 'could' spin at) rev limit is a good way to make it last. I have done that in the past with very good success - a few years of track days and sprinting from 130bhp/litre C20XE with nothing other than oil changes required. It was built to rev to 8500 but I kept the limiter at 8k.

As I said, sorry if any of that is already obvious, but hopefully there may be something there that makes you go 'ah-ha!' and can prevent another lost engine.


That clutch failure is properly weird. Maybe you should call the car Christine!

The strangest thing about the clutch failure was it just happened. I was sitting at low revs having a cooling lap trying to find space to go for a hot lap and bang..... I would have expected that type of failure - if it was going to happen - during a downshift at race speed.

Oil cooler is actually a kit for the car, came with the little bracket and everything - it's on the air duct, it does get some flow as the scoops are enlarged, but I'm still wary of it. On a longer stint I see 110*c but rarely much above that. Always using Millers NT+ as well. It's all -10 hoses, and short as possible in the main system - lack of space means the accusump has to be in the front, but the valve is right at the sandwich plate - so the hose is under pressure at all times. The accusump is a bit of a sticking plaster solution, I agree, but going full dry sump is expensive and I'm not even sure there is enough room to do it. The accusump guarantees I am getting some oil pressure within about 0.5 secs, should anything go wrong or the pressure drop suddenly for whatever reason. The discharge gives about 6-7 seconds of guaranteed 30 PSI oil supply - but it's enough time to notice the light and do something about it. It's also useful for pre-oiling the engine prior to starting. The whole system weighs about 5.5kg plus an extra 2 litres of oil.

The plan with this engine, is I'm limited with how much power I can make with the series I race in being power to weight ratio. So the theory is cut the very top part of the lift and limit the engine to about 175-176 bhp, whilst significantly improving the responsiveness with lightening the turny bit, and flattening the torque curve a bit with the cams, and running slightly higher compression - again should give a bit more torque.

I like using OE stuff, but the 2 big failures I've had have been an OE Valve and OE bearing. The OE oil pump is known for gear failure=s hence why I've went for the MWR option - I am loathed to change a part for new that has maybe only done 300 miles, of which 150 were running in on a dyno.

Absolutely agree 100% on keeping everything to within OE spec with machining. Minimal machining hopefully required, but I've got a good machine shop I use - they aren't motorsport and I use them for 2 reasons

1) the word motorsport on a company name seems to add a 50% premium for the same service. Granted there are times when you need the motorsport garage.
2) I know and trust them.

JB21

I'm ruining the Elise parts sump and it actually holds 5.7L of oil so pick up should never be an issue. My first engine even ran with <4L of oil with the EP sump before it went pop (Rogue didn't space the dipstick properly on the build) so anything over 5L and you are absolutely fine even on slicks.

I don't run a cooler or have an oil temp gauge but I just keep stints to around 10-15 minutes at a time to try and reduce overheating.


AdamR28

All in hand then - top banana! New engine should be bob on all being well.

AJRFulton

I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

JB21

Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 19:11I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

I rebuilt the top end of mine mate and its a piece if piss, first time opening an engine for me and its still going strong 8 track days later. Regarding the VVT sprocket you can just pull the cams out and whip the sprocket off that way. It sits in a grove If I remember correctly so can't really fit it incorrectly.

I used this set of youtube clips for guidance.


AJRFulton

#15
Quote from: JB21 on December  3, 2020, 19:30
Quote from: AJRFulton on December  3, 2020, 19:11I'll keep the thread up to date with the strip down and clean up.

Going to tackle the bottom end rebuild myself, but will probably give the top end to somebody to set up properly.

One question I have and always wondered.

The VVT Sprocket, can this be unlocked by taking the front cover off and pulling the pin - and reassembling unlocked. Then attaching to the cams unlocked that way.

As opposed to faffing about with air lines trying to unlock it?

I rebuilt the top end of mine mate and its a piece if piddle, first time opening an engine for me and its still going strong 8 track days later. Regarding the VVT sprocket you can just pull the cams out and whip the sprocket off that way. It sits in a grove If I remember correctly so can't really fit it incorrectly.

I used this set of youtube clips for guidance.


I'm switching cams though, the Piper cams don't have a sprocket on them just now.

Useful video though, thanks

AJRFulton



A parcel came today.

Just waiting on the rods and crank

AJRFulton

So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

thetyrant

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 14:55So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

Thats that block fit for scrap then as your right cant touch bores on 2zz :(  you could get liners fitted which is pricey job  though!
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

1979scotte

Nikasil coating can't be reapplied then?

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

AJRFulton

Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 14:59
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 14:55So put the head and block into the machine shop for a refurbishment. Never actually told them what the engine was as I didn't think.

I've got the block back and they've honed the cylinders, which as far as I understand is something you do in nearly all car engines including the 1ZZ, but NOT the 2ZZ due to its ceramic coating (which just looks like glazed metal).

Thats that block fit for scrap then as your right cant touch bores on 2zz :(  you could get liners fitted which is pricey job  though!

Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

thetyrant

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 10, 2020, 15:09Nikasil coating can't be reapplied then?



It can on 2 stroke motorbike barrels but imagine it would be a mission on a 2zz block but you never know.
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

thetyrant

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

thetyrant

Somebody like this should be able to sort it but what cost who knows... https://poetonaptec.co.uk/our-services/
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

AJRFulton

Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 15:43
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(

it isn't bad, but there is a roughness - I would generally agree it is f*cked.

I'm starting to get depressed with this motorsport thing - I keep feeling I'm doing the right thing but always something goes wrong. My racing record of 14 events entered, 4 events finished plays testimony to that.

A stupid little thing has just cost me over a grand.