'00 track car

[Alex Knight]

I can hear it struggling too. You can tell something is amiss.

Properly committed minimum apex speed though - chapeau.

Likewise on the heel/toe downshifts. Smooths out the braking sooo much, and reduces the chance of locking the back axle under hard braking with high RPM downshifts.

[AJRFulton]

You can hear it proper stuttering at high RPM's. Car looks great out on track though.

No rev matching on downshifts?

I can toe and heel, but not heel and toe if you get me. Unfortunately one of the before mentioned football injuries was a broken right ankle and my ankle doesn't really bend to the 10pm position when strapped in as I cant flex my hip. I've never really found a non clumsy fix, other than turning the brake bias more to front.

Doing it the wrong way around (foot in 2pm position), is fine on road and.... I sort of mastered it on road driving but..... on track - different gravy - I can't get hard braking right. Hard to regulate the pressure on the brake and get it right maybe 1 time in 5.

[JB21]

You can hear it proper stuttering at high RPM's. Car looks great out on track though.

No rev matching on downshifts?

I can toe and heel, but not heel and toe if you get me. Unfortunately one of the before mentioned football injuries was a broken right ankle and my ankle doesn't really bend to the 10pm position when strapped in as I cant flex my hip. I've never really found a non clumsy fix, other than turning the brake bias more to front.

Doing it the wrong way around (foot in 2pm position), is fine on road and.... I sort of mastered it on road driving but..... on track - different gravy - I can't get hard braking right. Hard to regulate the pressure on the brake and get it right maybe 1 time in 5.

TBH mate its not the easiest for me with the mr2 pedal set up. I find the brake pedal to low. Piece of piss on the road, but with the pedal mashed on track its a big swing over with the ankle. Every other car I've not had an issue.

I'm gonna try and tighten the throttle cable so I don't need as much as a stamp on the throttle to blip it.

[AJRFulton]

Tbh, I only find being unable to do it a bigger problem in the wet, in the dry the MR layout is stable enough.

As said I tend to run my brake bias 4 or 5 clicks forward from where optimal probably is.

[AJRFulton]

Starting to consider my options.

Has anyone used either of the following.

Future motorsports CSS block
ECUmaster black

[1979scotte]

Starting to consider my options.

Has anyone used either of the following.

Future motorsports CSS block
ECUmaster black

Plenty have used the ECUMASTER black we even used to get a discount for 1zz and 2zz. I've got the classic and it runs my supercharged V6 fine.

[AJRFulton]

I just want to weigh up my options with costing how to continue with motorsport.

Just now they are

1) Totally strip and rebuild the power train and electrics - doing as much as I can myself but getting professional help to build and install the bits I can't
2) Totally strip and install a K20 or similar
3) Sell/Break and buy/build something else.

All options I think will require about £3-5k of input cash.

Very hard to put a value on the car as well, it's niche, not road legal, etc.

[Alex Knight]

Have you not considered the option I suggested above?

[AJRFulton]

Have you not considered the option I suggested above?

I've already did that with Engine #4 from a known donor car (117k), admittedly not a car I owned, but a car from a trusted source that was written off (rear ended) and I was quick to jump on it when I found that out as the Celica was kept immaculate.

Unfortunately, the engine spun a bearing, although it did complete a track day and a round of motorsport before succumbing at Knockhill. Engine ran well until it happened (I run both Elise parts sump and an accusump (25psi electric switch) with Millers NT+ 5W40, and an oil cooler - I think I've did all practicable to prevent it).

Problem with the 2ZZ is even a newer one is 15yrs old now - older ones are 20yrs+ - it's a big ask to do 20-30 minutes at 100% full beans during a race.

That engine eventually was rebuilt, and breaking it down a lot of waxy oil deposits in interior - it had clearly went long durations at some point in time between oil changes. That is sort of the problem with engines of that age, a lot is luck. It was an OEM valve failing that lead to its ultimate demise.

[AJRFulton]

First bit of time I've had to unload the car and van since the Croft disaster. Flew back home yesterday, and have 2 days to get the engine apart and inspect it before going back to work for a month. Been a hectic schedule lately working away from home - 13hr shifts, 13 on 1 off then 11 on 3 off - so very time limited until the new year. Got xmas and new year off, then off to South Africa for 100 days with work, so only have about 20 days to work on the car until next Summer.

Cars off the trailer and in the garage, hoping to break my personal best and drop the engine, from the first bolt removal from the bumper to engine on the ground, in under 90 minutes - its doable but taking 30 mins off my best.

Get it on the engine stand tomorrow and broken apart.

[AJRFulton]

My 90 minutes went out the window as I've ended up in the pub..... but......

Found a lot of burnt oil deposits in 1 & 2 exhaust, but none in 3 & 4.

I was expecting to find issues in 3 as that is where the injector failed, where the leakdown test is showing problems, and where the inspection cam is showing scoring.

The other 3 cylinders appeared fine on the leakdown and inspection cam. But oil in 2 cylinders... that looks very head gaskety.

[AJRFulton]

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A bit longer than intended, hangover, pub, etc

But engine out... Will get head off tomorrow before flying back to work

[AJRFulton]

A lot of oil on the pistons

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[AJRFulton]

Been thinking a lot about what's went wrong today.

The leak down test was fine (both TDC and BDC) on 1,2 and 4, but only good TDC on 3. Tested both hot and cold with same result.

Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders. Scoring can easily be felt by finger, never mind nail. Running Mahle 82mm pistons, which should be drop in for OEM block. Rings required no filing, fitted perfectly out of the box (new pistons, new rings, new block)

All cylinders with significant quantities of fresh oil them

Inlet manifold with significant quantity of fresh oil in it

Exhaust manifold 1 and 2 with greasy burnt oil deposits. 3 and 4 are dry.

Valve seals appear fine (no oil on valves)

Head gasket appears fine

Ideas?

[JB21]

Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

[Joesson]

@AJRFulton said: Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders.

Do the cylinder bore score marks relate to the piston ring gaps, maybe there is a manufacturing burr on the end of the rings?

[AJRFulton]

@AJRFulton said: Scoring on all 4 cylinders at 3 o clock and 9 o clock positions - near identical on all cylinders.

Do the cylinder bore score marks relate to the piston ring gaps, maybe there is a manufacturing burr on the end of the rings?

They won't. The ring gaps were set at about 120^ to each other, so can't be at 180^ intervals

[AJRFulton]

Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

[mr2garageswindon]

What oil pressure are you seeing while on track? Did all the engines you have got thru used the same sump? 

[JB21]

Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

Sounds like you may not have worn down the high spots of the rings and bore walls with the initial bed in procedure, if there was no burrs that needed removing which really does sound like a plausible explanation given the identical scoring.

Did you fill/prime the oil filter before fitting? Once the engine is filled with oil, its a good idea to remove the spark plugs and fuel rail plug, then cycle a few 5s cranks off the starter motor, for pressure but also so oil is circulated around the dry engine before firing. Not saying this has caused the issue but its good practice.

What oil grade was used? You'd need a thin oil, better with the OE spec 5w 30 as all the tolerances will be factory spec and nice and tight.

What initial bed in procedure did you run the engine at before the rolling road? Did you run a high idle to remove slack from the valve train? Did you keep a close eye on temperatures on the initial run in period? Overheating can ruin a new engine as tolerances are already tight, and extra heat even marginally can tighten these tolerances further leading to increased wear.

Also what was the dyno bed-in procedure. Did they smoothly vary the RPM's, building up slowly to higher RPM's, but with periods of coasting in-between for cooling, then short WOT runs in high gears to build max pressure to seat the rings?

[AJRFulton]

Presume a gentle bed in of the new engine was undertaken, as well as priming the oil system before firing?

Engine was rolling road run in - around 200 miles.

Accusump always gives me 20psi of oil pressure as soon as ignition is on.

Sounds like you may not have worn down the high spots of the rings and bore walls with the initial bed in procedure, if there was no burrs that needed removing which really does sound like a plausible explanation given the identical scoring.

Did you fill/prime the oil filter before fitting? Once the engine is filled with oil, its a good idea to remove the spark plugs and fuel rail plug, then cycle a few 5s cranks off the starter motor, for pressure but also so oil is circulated around the dry engine before firing. Not saying this has caused the issue but its good practice.

What oil grade was used? You'd need a thin oil, better with the OE spec 5w 30 as all the tolerances will be factory spec and nice and tight.

What initial bed in procedure did you run the engine at before the rolling road? Did you run a high idle to remove slack from the valve train? Did you keep a close eye on temperatures on the initial run in period? Overheating can ruin a new engine as tolerances are already tight, and extra heat even marginally can tighten these tolerances further leading to increased wear.

Also what was the dyno bed-in procedure. Did they smoothly vary the RPM's, building up slowly to higher RPM's, but with periods of coasting in-between for cooling, then short WOT runs in high gears to build max pressure to seat the rings?

Oil filter was primed, oil pump was primed. Engine was given a few short bursts with crank sensor off until pressure was seen. Accusump was then discharged prior to first firing - pre-oiling the engine with 20psi of oil pressure. Lack of oil isn't something I'm concerned about.

Run in with Miller's Running In Mineral oil - 5w30.

The engine had very little running prior to run in. It was fired up and allowed to idle for a few minutes then checked for leaks. Then car was loaded onto a trailer and taken to Dyno. Drove onto trailer, and drove off trailer and reversed into Dyno.

I didn't watch all of the Dyno run in as it took 3hrs - I had a MS Teams job interview during the process, so missed an hour of it.

Oil and water temperature would be monitored on the software and gauges - I know and trust the tuner (a jap specialist). The run in procedure sounds more or less what you are saying, even checking valve clearances prior to running.

After run in, oil was changed to NT+ 5W40 and car tuned on dyno. The car then did 20 laps at a track day and had another oil change - so system flushed.

The running in oil had a little metallic shimmer, and was filtered through a gauze on disposal for debris check. The 2nd oil change had no shimmer or debris. The oil removed when engine was removed had no shimmer or debris. The sumps been off - no debris there.

[Beachbum957]

A suggestion.  Pull the pistons and measure the skirts.  Most forged pistons tend to grow a bit in size as they warm up, and too much load before they have stabilized can damage the skirts, or cause scoring. 

Years ago, I learned that lesson very expensively when a tuner did a hard dyno pull on a highly modified motorcycle race engine after the pistons had cooled between runs.  The next time the engine was run hard one piston seized at high RPM, with massive damage.  A post mortem and inspection by another top engine builder revealed light scoring in the cylinders still intact, and the piston skirts had partially collapsed.  The resulting excessive clearance eventually led to the failure

[AJRFulton]

A suggestion.  Pull the pistons and measure the skirts.  Most forged pistons tend to grow a bit in size as they warm up, and too much load before they have stabilized can damage the skirts, or cause scoring. 

Years ago, I learned that lesson very expensively when a tuner did a hard dyno pull on a highly modified motorcycle race engine after the pistons had cooled between runs.  The next time the engine was run hard one piston seized at high RPM, with massive damage.  A post mortem and inspection by another top engine builder revealed light scoring in the cylinders still intact, and the piston skirts had partially collapsed.  The resulting excessive clearance eventually led to the failure

The blocks fucked anyway, so will be fully dismantled.

I don't really have a window to do this for 8wks though as I'm working away from home. The 2 times I'm home before mid November - I've things on 😔

[AJRFulton]

Highlights of one of the series I do.

Not in it much as car broke early doors, and well... in practice I sort of was off track a lot!

Although apparantly I'm the international man of mystery.

[AJRFulton]

Decided what I am going to do.

I'm going to get a company called Future Motorsports to put in the Cylinder Support System and Sleeve a block - then (given my lack of time) get the short block professionally rebuilt using new or refurbished parts.

I've had the head tested and everything seems absolutely fine with it - although wary about skimming it for a 3rd time. However I do have a spare head that has never been skimmed. May be an idea to get that remachined and transfer the bits from the old head over.

Given it has always been near new OEM parts that have failed - I'm ditching OEM injectors, seals and coils, keeping only OEM Timing gear, Solenoids and VVT Sprocket on the head.

Still undecided on what options to go for.