'00 track car

Started by AJRFulton, December 2, 2020, 16:48

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Alex Knight

I think you've fucked it.

There's an interesting thread here: https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/sleeving-2zz-engine-vs-the-alternative.44931/

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a whole brand new built short motor from Toyota. It'll be expensive, but it will absolutely last as long as you'll ever reasonably need it to.

1979scotte

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:05
Quote from: thetyrant on December 10, 2020, 15:43
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 15:17Cheaper getting a new block than fitting liners. Liners themselves are £500-600 and getting them fitted will be the same again. Can get a new block for a grand.

Sort of my fault as I took it to the back street beardy guy and requested that they give the head and block a skim and clean up. They've got the chemical baths and tools to do it properly. I never actually specified the type of engine it was, or not to hone it.

Speaking to them they say it was a glaze break rather than a hone, and the used an aluminium oxide ball type honing tool, but there is roughness now to the cylinder wall.

Indeed unless going booster no point in liners really and often doesnt get done right!

If they used any type of abrasive in cylinder the coating will be shot as its only microns thick, if its coarse feeling or looking its no good :(

it isn't bad, but there is a roughness - I would generally agree it is f*cked.

I'm starting to get depressed with this motorsport thing - I keep feeling I'm doing the right thing but always something goes wrong. My racing record of 14 events entered, 4 events finished plays testimony to that.

A stupid little thing has just cost me over a grand.

Modified motors mate they're trouble.
I feel your pain
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Carolyn

Nikasil can be reapplied. We used to do it on dirt bikes.
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SV-3

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AJRFulton

Any idea the sort of cost involved?

SV-3

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?
I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.
'03 Mk3 Chilli Red (Avon ZV7's: 26F/32R)
Sony WX-920BT
"Hardtop Cognoscenti"
"Stock Cubed"
"AirCon Aficionado"
"Keeper of the Beeper"
Ex '88 Mk1b White (Yokohama A539's: 26F/28R)
Jaguar (Avon ZZ5's: 31F/31R)
"Here we all are, rumours and old toffee abound." John Martyn

thetyrant

Quote from: SV-3 on December 10, 2020, 16:55
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?
I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.

Will be interesting to see what they quote, only experience ive had in past like this is 2 stroke motorbike cylinders but that was many many years ago!

Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D


AJRFulton

Getting a built engine isn't really a desirable option - literally just spent 2 grand on parts to rebuild.

SV-3

Quote from: SV-3 on December 10, 2020, 16:55
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 10, 2020, 16:37Any idea the sort of cost involved?
I just tried Poeton for a 'quote', unfortunately they finish for the day at 4:30pm.
Will give them a call in the morning.
There is a datasheet on their website and they have a dedicated 'motorsport' department.
Sorry for the delay in responding – had to deal with a domestic crisis!
Spoke with Poeton (Gloucester) on Friday afternoon.
Unfortunately, they have streamlined their "Apticote 2000" process such that it is only available for Aluminium items.
Interestingly though, they 'overplate' and then hone to achieve the finished dimension and to guarantee true 'roundness' of the liner bore.
I assume your machine shop were honing to match the Mahle pistons?
If so, how much of the original 'plating' have they actually removed? Paradoxically, the harder the liner surface, the softer the honing medium, so is this just a visual thing rather than loss of the 'plating'?
'03 Mk3 Chilli Red (Avon ZV7's: 26F/32R)
Sony WX-920BT
"Hardtop Cognoscenti"
"Stock Cubed"
"AirCon Aficionado"
"Keeper of the Beeper"
Ex '88 Mk1b White (Yokohama A539's: 26F/28R)
Jaguar (Avon ZZ5's: 31F/31R)
"Here we all are, rumours and old toffee abound." John Martyn

AJRFulton

It was a soft hone using 800 grade stone - still smooth to the touch but appears crosshatched rather than dull grey.

The cylinders are still within Toyota manual spec. 82 point something millimetres - I can't recall the exact number, but were checked with a bore gauge.

SV-3

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 15, 2020, 01:04It was a soft hone using 800 grade stone - still smooth to the touch but appears crosshatched rather than dull grey.

The cylinders are still within Toyota manual spec. 82 point something millimetres - I can't recall the exact number, but were checked with a bore gauge.
So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.
'03 Mk3 Chilli Red (Avon ZV7's: 26F/32R)
Sony WX-920BT
"Hardtop Cognoscenti"
"Stock Cubed"
"AirCon Aficionado"
"Keeper of the Beeper"
Ex '88 Mk1b White (Yokohama A539's: 26F/28R)
Jaguar (Avon ZZ5's: 31F/31R)
"Here we all are, rumours and old toffee abound." John Martyn

thetyrant

#37
Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

That is quite some assumption about the thicker plating etc!.... these bore coatings are generally only microns thick so any visible marks usually means its compromised, it may or may not be ok but its a lot of work to build an engine in the hope the bores are ok not going to wear out due to plating compromise.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.

Is pretty well known about the 2zz bore coating but of course not everybody is aware of the issues, its one of the reasons ive not gone 2zz in past as if the engine turns out to have bore wear its not a simple a s hone or rebore and pistons to suit like it is with 1zz.

The 1zz doesnt have the coating and has thin steel/iron liners instead which and can be honed/deglazed if everything else is good, ive done this on engine in my car and about to do it on the spare 1zz im building up, obviously bores need to be within spec to get away with doing this. You can i believe give it a slight overbore as well if marked beyond honing limits.
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

SV-3

Quote from: thetyrant on December 15, 2020, 14:33
Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28So, if the bores are still within tolerance and assuming that Toyota aimed for a 'thicker' plating
of 0.005"/0.127mm, then you're good to go?

That is quite some assumption about the thicker plating etc!.... these bore coatings are generally only microns thick so any visible marks usually means its compromised, it may or may not be ok but its a lot of work to build an engine in the hope the bores are ok not going to wear out due to plating compromise.

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 12:28What I find strange is that given all the posts about the 2zz there is 'no mention' until now of ceramic coating of the bores. It also begs the question: where does it officially state that the 1zz didn't receive the coating?
Just a thought.

Is pretty well known about the 2zz bore coating but of course not everybody is aware of the issues, its one of the reasons ive not gone 2zz in past as if the engine turns out to have bore wear its not a simple a s hone or rebore and pistons to suit like it is with 1zz.

The 1zz doesnt have the coating and has thin steel/iron liners instead which and can be honed/deglazed if everything else is good, ive done this on engine in my car and about to do it on the spare 1zz im building up, obviously bores need to be within spec to get away with doing this. You can i believe give it a slight overbore as well if marked beyond honing limits.
Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.
'03 Mk3 Chilli Red (Avon ZV7's: 26F/32R)
Sony WX-920BT
"Hardtop Cognoscenti"
"Stock Cubed"
"AirCon Aficionado"
"Keeper of the Beeper"
Ex '88 Mk1b White (Yokohama A539's: 26F/28R)
Jaguar (Avon ZZ5's: 31F/31R)
"Here we all are, rumours and old toffee abound." John Martyn

thetyrant

Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 14:47Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.

How is that not an assumption though ? you cant assume Toyota or anyone else did the same especially on a totally different piston engine rather than a rotary wankel ...also how do you know what thickness is left on OP bores and that plating isnt compromised ? remember this is an aluminum bore with a very thin ceramic coating to make it hard enough for pistons and rings to have serviceable life, any damage to coating and the pistons/rings will soon destroy the rest engine and probably head as well due to all the fine particles,  that is point i was getting at :D

Hopefully it can be repaired or at very least inspected by a company with the correct equipment to make the call :)

Also to add the 2zz isnt Nicasil coating its some kind of ceramic, whatever that means! :D
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

AJRFulton

Quote from: thetyrant on December 15, 2020, 16:14
Quote from: SV-3 on December 15, 2020, 14:47Not an assumption.
The Nikasil application on the Wankel engine was 200 microns thick for example.
Interestingly, Nikasil was developed by Mahle in conjunction with NSU and Daimler Benz.

How is that not an assumption though ? you cant assume Toyota or anyone else did the same especially on a totally different piston engine rather than a rotary wankel ...also how do you know what thickness is left on OP bores and that plating isnt compromised ? remember this is an aluminum bore with a very thin ceramic coating to make it hard enough for pistons and rings to have serviceable life, any damage to coating and the pistons/rings will soon destroy the rest engine and probably head as well due to all the fine particles,  that is point i was getting at :D

Hopefully it can be repaired or at very least inspected by a company with the correct equipment to make the call :)

Also to add the 2zz isnt Nicasil coating its some kind of ceramic, whatever that means! :D

Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

thetyrant

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D


AJRFulton

To give some contrast I put an old piston in the hole.

AJRFulton

On another note.... top ends just about completed.

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AJRFulton

Quote from: thetyrant on December 16, 2020, 11:31
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?

I won't name names, as its "off the record" advice and well maybe not something they want attributed to on a forum.

1 company who build engines and maybe known as a lotus and race engine specialist..... said it will be fine.

1 company who sell parts and build engines..... and both a Toyota and Lotus specialist said..... it will need sleeved.

thetyrant

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 17, 2020, 08:12
Quote from: thetyrant on December 16, 2020, 11:31
Quote from: AJRFulton on December 16, 2020, 11:00Depends on who I speak to, some are saying what has been done is absolutely fine, and - others are saying it is destroyed.

What I do know is the bore has almost no wear, it's well within spec on the bore gauge.

I would rather it was checked properly, but I don't know where would do that - certainly nearby.

Interesting, are the people who are saying its ok familiar with the 2zz engine and its coating on cylinders etc ?

Can you get pictures of how it looks now ?

I won't name names, as its "off the record" advice and well maybe not something they want attributed to on a forum.

1 company who build engines and maybe known as a lotus and race engine specialist..... said it will be fine.

1 company who sell parts and build engines..... and both a Toyota and Lotus specialist said..... it will need sleeved.

Thats fair enough, looking at the pictures i still think its a gamble so depends if your willing to take it, best case its perfect with no issues, next best case its ok but uses oil due to poor ring seal which i would say is most likley, worst case it destroys the bores, pistons and rest of engine if filled with swarf etc.

I doubt there are many if any places that would or could tell you for 100% certainty whats going to happen as its a specialised area and its unlikley that any pro shop would take the risk due to potential comeback, it maybe some places have a specific very mild hone they use in cases like these and run it a certain amount to keep material removal to a minimum but without them doing it its an unknown.

I would say buy another used 2zz and use that block if all inspects good, or take the risk on what you have but imo its not worth it but each to their own.

Good luck with it though and hopefully back out getting used in anger soon :D
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

AJRFulton

#47
Trouble is budget. I'm way over budget already for next season and just lost my job.

Not sure its sensible to spend another £600-800 on another engine - spend the time stripping it - and then there is the risk the block inside isn't great. Either way it will be the guts of a grand of spend by time it gets reconned.

I'm not keen on sleeving. Expensive and adds a layers of un-needed complexity.

thetyrant

Quote from: AJRFulton on December 17, 2020, 12:36Trouble is budget. I'm way over budget already for next season and just lost my job.

Not sure its sensible to spend another £600-800 on another engine - spend the time stripping it - and then there is the risk the block inside isn't great. Either way it will be the guts of a grand of spend by time it gets reconned.

I'm not keen on sleeving. Expensive and adds a layers of un-needed complexity.

Indeed its a tricky one!   i suppose you could build this one up and just keep a very close eye on oil consumption and filter the oil for particles when changed, if it starts to burn oil you know the rings havent sealed onto the bores but biggest risk is damaging the new pistons and the rebuilt head etc, any debris get into head and cam journals its toast.

Looking at this scored 2zz block on ebay your finish looks ok its just hard to say for sure - 2zz damaged block on ebay
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AJRFulton

Ended up sourcing another block, whilst planning on getting one sleeved, I'll build another engine after this one.

Reassemble time.