Modern progress

[Petrus]

Today had the ´74 DAF parked next to the resident female´s modern day SUV.
The latter is three times as heavy and they have about identical power/weight ratio.
Tyres 155R15 vs 255/55R18.
Both front engine RWD.

The oldie corners better, handles better and most importantly stops shorter. It even is about as economical with fuel because of the featherweight and narrower rubber.
Speaking of which, they do about as long with the tyres, thus the modern one pollutes with a lót more carcenogenic rubber particles.

The view on the world in the oldie is better too. Less glass surface but almost vertical and not low. Hardly any dead angle whereas the C-pillar of the SUV is a serious obstruction of the view.

The modern SUV has a significantly higher top speed but whether thát is better?
Also it´s tank-ness makes the driver feel less vulnerable. Again a doubtful point.

By Jove how much do we sacrifice in the name of progress; for ´comfort´ and the illusion of safety.

[1979scotte]

Today had the ´74 DAF parked next to the resident female´s modern day SUV.
The latter is three times as heavy and they have about identical power/weight ratio.
Tyres 155R15 vs 255/55R18.
Both front engine RWD.

The oldie corners better, handles better and most importantly stops shorter. It even is about as economical with fuel because of the featherweight and narrower rubber.
Speaking of which, they do about as long with the tyres, thus the modern one pollutes with a lót more carcenogenic rubber particles.

The view on the world in the oldie is better too. Less glass surface but almost vertical and not low. Hardly any dead angle whereas the C-pillar of the SUV is a serious obstruction of the view.

The modern SUV has a significantly higher top speed but whether thát is better?
Also it´s tank-ness makes the driver feel less vulnerable. Again a doubtful point.

By Jove how much do we sacrifice in the name of progress; for ´comfort´ and the illusion of safety.

Come on petrus even you can't argue about safety.
70s cars are death traps in comparison to modern cars.

[Petrus]

Come on petrus even you can't argue about safety.
70s cars are death traps in comparison to modern cars.

The perception of safety again; Peltzman. Not so safe for the rést of the world.

Point is Schott that ´safety´ goes beyond passive occupant protection.
There is the active safety; the nibleness, stopping distance.
And what about the kinetic energy on impact.

A cyclist, pedestrian, motorcyclist I feel safer in the company of a Seat Marbella than when a 2 tonne heavy, 2 meter wide SUV with larger dead angles and aninvulnerable driver is coming up.

[1979scotte]

Come on petrus even you can't argue about safety.
70s cars are death traps in comparison to modern cars.

The perception of safety again; Peltzman. Not so safe for the rést of the world.

Point is Schott that ´safety´ goes beyond passive occupant protection.
There is the active safety; the nibleness, stopping distance.
And what about the kinetic energy on impact.

A cyclist, pedestrian, motorcyclist I feel safer in the company of a Seat Marbella than when a 2 tonne heavy, 2 meter wide SUV with larger dead angles and aninvulnerable driver is coming up.

SUV aren't all cars.
The golf fiesta polo clio are probably the biggest selling cars in Europe.
Idiot drivers are idiot drivers no matter what decade or vehicle.

Next you'll be telling us seat belts make us all reckless.

[1979scotte]

BTW road deaths have consistently fallen in the UK since 1966 until say 2010 where there has been a bit of a plateau.
Obviously vastly improved medical care and driver training has played its part.

[Petrus]

Don´t forget better road design, guard rails, speed limits/control et al.

The point I am making Scott is that automotive progress does not result all thát great.

By all means compare a sixties Elan with a half century later Z4.
Fit modern tyres and seatbelts to the Elan ofcourse. Oh and electronic ignition.
Drive both a week about and tell me how much better a car the BMW is.
Ofcourse you are better off in a BMW when you crash it but I´d rather not crash in the fisrt place and I bet that the light, nible, short stopping Elan is pretty good at that.

Imo it is a bl@@dy marketing shame what we are being told/sold.
´We´ should not drive cars as if they are tanks but we should drive them like we are siting on a motorcycle; anticiating avoidance of an accident instead of feeling safe in case of a crash.

[tomaky]

Just because you dont want to crash doesnt mean Dorris Doesn't!

[1979scotte]

An elan is an automotive icon.
A Z4 is just meh.

An elan weighs 700kg.
A current elise 930kg earlier models were much less.

A BMW 3200cs from the 60s weighs around 1500kg very roughly.
A BMW Z4M coupe is also 1500kg roughly .

[Petrus]

Just because you dont want to crash doesnt mean Dorris Doesn't!

So you are told and gobble down hook ,line and sinker; wánt that a car is by law required to be a lardy crash tank and motorbikes? ... not.


By 2014 new cars are required to have backing up cameras and lane changing ´safety assistance´ so more people who should not be driving in the first place can drive ´safely´. Which then is foundation for your ´Doris´ argument.

We are being conned!
Seen that car commercial with a bint drinking coffee in the car and the car save that lovely young girl on the pedestrian crossing?
Like that is normal and that the car can deal with it.
Bl@@dy h###, such behaviour should be condemned; the bint banned from driving!!

The end game of the two pronged con is that we will be no-driving autonomous e-vehicles. But we will feel safe no?!

[1979scotte]

An elan is an automotive icon.
A Z4 is just meh.

An elan weighs 700kg.
A current elise 930kg earlier models were much less.

A BMW 3200cs from the 60s weighs around 1500kg very roughly.
A BMW Z4M coupe is also 1500kg roughly .

Edited

Even my diesel focus estate is lighter than a z4M

[tomaky]

Just because you dont want to crash doesnt mean Dorris Doesn't!

So you are told and gobble down hook ,line and sinker; wánt that a car is by law required to be a lardy crash tank and motorbikes? ... not.


By 2014 new cars are required to have backing up cameras and lane changing ´safety assistance´ so more people who should not be driving in the first place can drive ´safely´. Which then is foundation for your ´Doris´ argument.

We are being conned!
Seen that car commercial with a bint drinking coffee in the car and the car save that lovely young girl on the pedestrian crossing?
Like that is normal and that the car can deal with it.
Bl@@dy h###, such behaviour should be condemned; the bint banned from driving!!

The end game of the two pronged con is that we will be no-driving autonomous e-vehicles. But we will feel safe no?!

Are you any where near sane?

[Zxrob]

An elan is an automotive icon.
A Z4 is just meh.

I;ll second that, actually, third and fourth it

Rob

[tomaky]

Agree not sure many rate the the regards of sportscar. Had this conversation with Nath in his 3ltr. ITs more a gran tourer, the same way a F type is. They are just too heavy to be considered sports cars for me. Z4 is also too soft.

[1979scotte]

Agree not sure many rate the the regards of sportscar. Had this conversation with Nath in his 3ltr. ITs more a gran tourer, the same way a F type is. They are just too heavy to be considered sports cars for me. Z4 is also too soft.

An F type is far better than a Z4 even if it is heavier.

[tomaky]

It is, the point is they are both GT cars not sports cars.

[Zxrob]

Lets be honest, modern cars are great in many ways, safer, more reliable, mostly dont rust and lots more, they have imo opinion, become bland, stereotyped and at times fooking frustrating. Only this week whilst driving to work in my HRV, PING on the dash, tyre pressure warning, checked the pressures and they were fine, on numerous occasions when pulling on to my drive the bloody thing slams the brakes on just because there is a big edge there, perhaps I'm getting old but I'm more than capable of applying the brakes and checking tyre pressures myself

Rob

[Joesson]

Just because you dont want to crash doesnt mean Dorris Doesn't!

So you are told and gobble down hook ,line and sinker; wánt that a car is by law required to be a lardy crash tank and motorbikes? ... not.


By 2014 new cars are required to have backing up cameras and lane changing ´safety assistance´ so more people who should not be driving in the first place can drive ´safely´. Which then is foundation for your ´Doris´ argument.

We are being conned!
Seen that car commercial with a bint drinking coffee in the car and the car save that lovely young girl on the pedestrian crossing?
Like that is normal and that the car can deal with it.
Bl@@dy h###, such behaviour should be condemned; the bint banned from driving!!

The end game of the two pronged con is that we will be no-driving autonomous e-vehicles. But we will feel safe no?!

Are you any where near sane?

No, he's in Malaga, Spain.

[1979scotte]

Just because you dont want to crash doesnt mean Dorris Doesn't!

So you are told and gobble down hook ,line and sinker; wánt that a car is by law required to be a lardy crash tank and motorbikes? ... not.


By 2014 new cars are required to have backing up cameras and lane changing ´safety assistance´ so more people who should not be driving in the first place can drive ´safely´. Which then is foundation for your ´Doris´ argument.

We are being conned!
Seen that car commercial with a bint drinking coffee in the car and the car save that lovely young girl on the pedestrian crossing?
Like that is normal and that the car can deal with it.
Bl@@dy h###, such behaviour should be condemned; the bint banned from driving!!

The end game of the two pronged con is that we will be no-driving autonomous e-vehicles. But we will feel safe no?!

Are you any where near sane?

No, he's in Malaga, Spain.

What was your daily in the 60s Tony?
How does it compare to your current steed?

[scm2004red]

What was your daily in the 60s Tony?
How does it compare to your current steed?

It's interesting to compare.

In the 60's my daily drive was one of a succession of Rover P4 or P5, all weighed about 30cwt, performance was adequate for the day, fuel consumption was something I didn't care about, simple to maintain. Lots of dials on the dash told you if something wasn't right. Safety wise they were built like a tank, still remember a picture of a P4 that had T boned a Zephyr on a motorway, splitting the Ford in half, the p4 just had it's front wings bent back.

Nowadays the daily has far more performance than you will ever need in the UK, has far too many computer driven things to go wrong or tell you something has failed and mostly can't be fixed by the home mechanic.

Is that progress?

[Dev]

There are major improvements with safety in newer cars, its undeniable how big the difference is.

Reminiscing on older cars is nice as I think some of them are more beautiful but that is an illusion. There are only a handful of vintage cars that look amazing and the rest were very ugly and the build quality fit and finish is laughable by todays standards. These ugly cars have mostly been junked. 

Its all a mixed bag today as some newer cars are far more reliable and have less service intervals, and there are others like the newer German cars that have horrendous reliability issues and massive depreciation. 
If there was an end of the world Mad Max scenario I would want to be in an older Land Cruiser.

[Ardent]

On the personal safety front.

It would not seem too big an ask for the cyclists round my way to at least have reflectors fitted. We can work up from there to lights perhaps.
A high vis vest perhaps?

But no, it's left to the motorist to account for the cyclists own lack of care.

[shnazzle]

I'm firmly in the camp of responsibility for driving is being taken away by modern tech, allowing people to make mistakes and get away with driving behaviour they otherwise wouldn't.

But yeah, sure they are saving lives. Definitely. Cars are getting safer and stupid people are dying less because the car is rescuing them and others from their utter ineptitude. 

This is the society we live in. Responsibility is a bad word. "surely it's them, not me". "This can't happen to me". "I'm entitled to..."

[tomaky]

Possible a good way of wording it, alot of safety techs are to make up for the careless/lazy, dare I say it elderly drivers?

[Chilli Girl]

Sadly, they are not  always the elderly - my neighbours 20 yr old son had an old 06 reg Fiesta 1.0 litre and has just brought a 17 reg BRZ, drives like an absolute nutter, no experience of driving a rwd.  I hate to say this and I hope it doesn't happen but I can see him wrapping himself around a tree anytime soon.    Will he survive in a newer better safety BRZ opposed to a 15 yr old Fiesta with less safety  depends how big the tree is I suppose

[Alex Knight]

This thread is mental.

If you honestly think that cars aren't safer than they were in the 70s, you are also mental.

If you want to make a statement as such, share your source.

This kind of misinformation is quite a bad idea to propagate.

I will have to dismiss this as utter gibberish.