Modern progress

[tomaky]

agree Chilli we all have to learn, i resent the 18/19 old i was, risk didn't appear in my mind. The only reason i threw elderly in there was because after the WALL crash i had to attend a driving awareness course. The average age of 20 people bar 4 under 30s would have been approx 70

[1979scotte]

Possible a good way of wording it, alot of safety techs are to make up for the careless/lazy, dare I say it elderly drivers?

Let's get this right.
The under 25s are the most dangerous on the roads fact.

The problem with the elderly and we will all be like this when older is that they still think they are as good behind the wheel at 72 as they were at 42 and most aren't. My mum is bloody awful these days and my dad isn't too bad but he does drive a 2 ton land rover it basically drives itself.


Men are statically more dangerous than women. We all know this.

And I don't know this for a fact but parents who routinely drive with their kids seem more dangerous to me especially if there are more kids than adults. The things they do on the move are unreal. Just pull over ffs.

[1979scotte]

agree Chilli we all have to learn, i resent the 18/19 old i was, risk didn't appear in my mind. The only reason i threw elderly in there was because after the WALL crash i had to attend a driving awareness course. The average age of 20 people bar 4 under 30s would have been approx 70

Because most of the youngsters weren't offered courses because their offences were to severe.

Edit
I've been on courses.
None had elderly or young drivers on them.
 

[scm2004red]

I think people have drifted off track a bit on this thread, it isn't a debate about whether older/younger drivers are better/worse than others, but whether cars have progressed in comfort or safety.

Things should be put into perspective, speeds on the roads have increased considerably since the 60's. Motorways were fairly limited, fewer dual carriageways, fewer cars.

In the mid 60's I was driving weekly from Southampton to Liverpool. This involved a cross country journey from Southampton via Andover, crossing the site of M4 construction about Marlborough (the M4 was only complete westwards until about Newbury) up through Stow in the Wold to pick up the start of the M5 at about Tewkesbury/Worcester. Up the M5 until it finished at Frankley, then a tortuous route through Wolverhampton, Stoke to pick up the M6 at it's beginning at about Keele (the Midland Links motorways were still very much work in progress). Luckily the M6 went on up to about Preston so I could come off onto The East Lancs Road into Liverpool, probably about the only bit on non motorway dual carriageway on the route. This took about 5 and a half hours from memory on a late Sunday, more on a Friday night.

Vehicles have improved because of the road improvements and speed increases. Accidents in the 60's were at comparatively low speeds, and mainly fender benders, now Motorway travel has increased speeds and the consequences of damage, People want more comfort on long distance travel than you got in a Morris Marina, and regrettably, people need proximity warnings, lane change and service indicators etc.

But I still prefer the driving comfort of the old Rover 3 litre coupe I had when all you hear was the clock ticking at 70mph, the only driver assist was power steering, no a/c no warning lights except charging and main beam. A different era!

[1979scotte]

I think people have drifted off track a bit on this thread, it isn't a debate about whether older/younger drivers are better/worse than others, but whether cars have progressed in comfort or safety.

Things should be put into perspective, speeds on the roads have increased considerably since the 60's. Motorways were fairly limited, fewer dual carriageways, fewer cars.

In the mid 60's I was driving weekly from Southampton to Liverpool. This involved a cross country journey from Southampton via Andover, crossing the site of M4 construction about Marlborough (the M4 was only complete westwards until about Newbury) up through Stow in the Wold to pick up the start of the M5 at about Tewkesbury/Worcester. Up the M5 until it finished at Frankley, then a tortuous route through Wolverhampton, Stoke to pick up the M6 at it's beginning at about Keele (the Midland Links motorways were still very much work in progress). Luckily the M6 went on up to about Preston so I could come off onto The East Lancs Road into Liverpool, probably about the only bit on non motorway dual carriageway on the route. This took about 5 and a half hours from memory on a late Sunday, more on a Friday night.

Vehicles have improved because of the road improvements and speed increases. Accidents in the 60's were at comparatively low speeds, and mainly fender benders, now Motorway travel has increased speeds and the consequences of damage, People want more comfort on long distance travel than you got in a Morris Marina, and regrettably, people need proximity warnings, lane change and service indicators etc.

But I still prefer the driving comfort of the old Rover 3 litre coupe I had when all you hear was the clock ticking at 70mph, the only driver assist was power steering, no a/c no warning lights except charging and main beam. A different era!

Rover P5 weren't exactly lightweight though somewhere around 1600kg.
A modern C43 AMG can be 1735kg. And its 4wd with all the added safety that brings.

[1979scotte]

Also I'm only 42 so don't know what it was like in the 60s but people 100% drive slower on the motorway now than they did in the 90s. Speed cameras have really brought it under control.
My mother thought nothing of doing 100 mph + with me in her XR3I cabriolet on the way to Dover because we were late for the boat.
And she got caught 😳.
Also drink driving has massively decreased in my lifetime. Most people don't drive to the pub anymore. They all did when I was a kid. And designated drivers didn't exist.

If you guys want to go back to driving 600kg mini coopers be my guest. I'm sure they're fun to drive but you'd be toast if someone in a P5 hit you. God forbid something like a 450 SEL 6.9 rear ended you a 2 ton car. FYI a modern S63 AMG starts off about the same weight. Wonder which one is safer?

[shnazzle]

Any of these cars are only as safe as the monkeys driving them. 
They're inanimate objects.

[1979scotte]

Any of these cars are only as safe as the monkeys driving them.
They're inanimate objects.

But cars now are safer.
Even if you say current range rovers are 1000kg heavier than they were in the 70s. They still stop and handle better.
Yes if they hit cyclists, bikers or pedestrians they do more damage but they are less likely to do so.
And in regards to Peltzman I learnt to drive with seat belts and ABS so I don't see how I take more risks. Older people maybe as they were introduced after they learnt to drive.

[shnazzle]

Guns are safer now than they were as well, but they're still killing machines. When used correctly 

That's how I was introduced to cars. My dad called them killing machines when I was a kid. He loved driving as well.

[1979scotte]

Guns are safer now than they were as well, but they're still killing machines. When used correctly

That's how I was introduced to cars. My dad called them killing machines when I was a kid. He loved driving as well.

Guns aren't safer they are designed to kill.
Cars are designed for transport but can be used as a weapon.
My pants are designed to keep my bits in place but once I've worn them they can be deadly.

[shnazzle]

Guns are safer now than they were as well, but they're still killing machines. When used correctly

That's how I was introduced to cars. My dad called them killing machines when I was a kid. He loved driving as well.

Guns aren't safer they are designed to kill.
Cars are designed for transport but can be used as a weapon.
My pants are designed to keep my bits in place but once I've worn them they can be deadly.

Guns are definitely safer. Better trigger mechanisms, safety locks, etc. Less likely to go off on you by accident. 

Same as cars really. Introduced modern tech to help prevent incidents through mishandling. 
Adds a buffer for error/stupidity.

[Petrus]

Are you any where near sane?

Übercool that your attempt to insult is not even in correct British ;-)

[Carolyn]

My take on the modern car:

It is designed to keep the occupants safe.  It accomplishes this by making the car more bulky to allow for more structural compression in a collision, making the headlights brighter so the driver can see more, making the car taller to give a more 'commanding' driving position, adding as many driver aids as possible, so it brakes for you, parks for you, and tells you when you're likely to bump into something.

All very fine for those inside.  For those outside the car, they now are faced with a heavier lump driven by someone who requires minimal skills to drive it, and who is so cocooned as to be paying a lot less attention to basic driving than is desirable.  Its headlights blind those in other vehicles, or those on foot.  A pedestrian struck by one of these taller beasts is more likely to suffer upper body injuries and the massive tyres are very noisy to those outside the car (that would be pedestrians).

Clarkson once quipped "The best safety device would be a six-inch spike in the middle of the steering wheel - then you'd pay proper attention".

In short: It's a vehicle perfectly designed for our modern self-centred society. "I'm alright, Jack, screw you".

[1979scotte]

My take on the modern car:

It is designed to keep the occupants safe.  It accomplishes this by making the car more bulky to allow for more structural compression in a collision, making the headlights brighter so the driver can see more, making the car taller to give a more 'commanding' driving position, adding as many driver aids as possible, so it brakes for you, parks for you, and tells you when you're likely to bump into something.

All very fine for those inside.  For those outside the car, they now are faced with a heavier lump driven by someone who requires minimal skills to drive it, and who is so cocooned as to be paying a lot less attention to basic driving than is desirable.  Its headlights blind those in other vehicles, or those on foot.  A pedestrian struck by one of these taller beasts is more likely to suffer upper body injuries and the massive tyres are very noisy to those outside the car (that would be pedestrians).

Clarkson once quipped "The best safety device would be a six-inch spike in the middle of the steering wheel - then you'd pay proper attention".

In short: It's a vehicle perfectly designed for our modern self-centred society. "I'm alright, Jack, screw you".

We all agree that more driver training is vitally important.

Bikers need more training too.

Same as cyclists.

And as pedestrians we need to pay more attention too.

Let's remember that modern cars are now tested for pedestrian safety.
And soon when there are no engines there won't need to be 200kg of metal under the bonnet.

[Petrus]

It's interesting to compare.
...
Is that progress?

Be careful. Your sanity might be questioned in incorrect British next :-)

I find it hilarious and insightful how many are challenged réading too.

On the other hand I find it highly worrying that even on a forum about a small sports car cabrio the hazards of modern lardy tanks is difficult to acknowledge.
Ask yourself: When on a roundabout with your Spyder, how do you feel when a 90ties Suzuki Alto vs a 2 ton modern BMW SUV approaches entering your path rather briskly.

As to the Elan and Z4 it is not about one being an icon and the other not.
Point is that there is over half a century of technological development between the two.
Even on the OVERALL safety front the progress is a jóke: Put the 60ties icon on equivalent modern rubber and it outbrakes the modern counterpart. Is thát safer? Same thing the dent it makes upon impact or is that not a safety thing?

All in all driver´s safety awareness is not improved by modern inhabitant safety perception.

[Petrus]

My take on the modern car:

It is designed to keep the occupants safe.  It accomplishes this by making the car more bulky to allow for more structural compression in a collision, making the headlights brighter so the driver can see more, making the car taller to give a more 'commanding' driving position, adding as many driver aids as possible, so it brakes for you, parks for you, and tells you when you're likely to bump into something.

All very fine for those inside.  For those outside the car, they now are faced with a heavier lump driven by someone who requires minimal skills to drive it, and who is so cocooned as to be paying a lot less attention to basic driving than is desirable.  Its headlights blind those in other vehicles, or those on foot.  A pedestrian struck by one of these taller beasts is more likely to suffer upper body injuries and the massive tyres are very noisy to those outside the car (that would be pedestrians).

Clarkson once quipped "The best safety device would be a six-inch spike in the middle of the steering wheel - then you'd pay proper attention".

In short: It's a vehicle perfectly designed for our modern self-centred society. "I'm alright, Jack, screw you".

Exactly.

Clarkson nicked that quote btw. ;-)

[1979scotte]

Guns are safer now than they were as well, but they're still killing machines. When used correctly

That's how I was introduced to cars. My dad called them killing machines when I was a kid. He loved driving as well.

Guns aren't safer they are designed to kill.
Cars are designed for transport but can be used as a weapon.
My pants are designed to keep my bits in place but once I've worn them they can be deadly.

Guns are definitely safer. Better trigger mechanisms, safety locks, etc. Less likely to go off on you by accident.

Same as cars really. Introduced modern tech to help prevent incidents through mishandling.
Adds a buffer for error/stupidity.

It's hardly mishandling if a pedestrian walks out in front of you with no warning and the cars I  built radar reacts faster than humanly possible.

We are all guilty of doing stupid things humans are fallible even Petrus.
We've all driven cars in a manner in which we shouldn't and cut corners on maintenance I know I have and I know you have too.

[1979scotte]

It's interesting to compare.
...
Is that progress?

Be careful. Your sanity might be questioned in incorrect British next :-)

I find it hilarious and insightful how many are challenged réading too.

On the other hand I find it highly worrying that even on a forum about a small sports car cabrio the hazards of modern lardy tanks is difficult to acknowledge.
Ask yourself: When on a roundabout with your Spyder, how do you feel when a 90ties Suzuki Alto vs a 2 ton modern BMW SUV approaches entering your path rather briskly.

As to the Elan and Z4 it is not about one being an icon and the other not.
Point is that there is over half a century of technological development between the two.
Even on the OVERALL safety front the progress is a jóke: Put the 60ties icon on equivalent modern rubber and it outbrakes the modern counterpart. Is thát safer? Same thing the dent it makes upon impact or is that not a safety thing?

All in all driver´s safety awareness is not improved by modern inhabitant safety perception.

Petrus you yet again miss the point the modern equivalent of an elan is an elise not a Z4. An elan on modern rubber doesn't out brake or handle an elise.

[1979scotte]

Are you any where near sane?

Übercool that your attempt to insult is not even in correct British ;-)

Perhaps he is dyslexic?
Although I accept his comment made me laugh its not really pertinent.

[Petrus]

Any of these cars are only as safe as the monkeys driving them.
They're inanimate objects.

And when those monkeys feel invulnerable they become quite dangerous. The more so the heavier and bigger the car they drive.
The perfect storm really: Bigger/heavier makes the feel safer, drive less careful in a potentially more damaging vehicle.
Progess indeed.

Technical progress could make the sixties lighweight with good view and great feelback réally safer. Take the Renault R4, add safety belts and soft shell dash, make it in modern steels/plastics differentiated for their respective jobs, propelled by direct injection 500 cc twin.
Do nót add electric central everything.
40 happy but very frugal horses would be enough for the at móst 600 kg practical and fun to drive nimble car.
But no, that would not net enough money: The same margin on a 3, 4 times more expensive car is 3, 4 times more profit. For the industry and for the State.

[1979scotte]

It's what the majority want @Petrus
That what happens in democracy.

Modern cars are still safer when compared like for like.

[Ardent]

We all agree that more driver training is vitally important.

Same as cyclists.

And as pedestrians we need to pay more attention too.

Cyclists. Like not riding through red lights.
Pedestrians. So many are plugged in with ear buds or headphones, straight off the kerb to cross a junction, no so much as a look over the shoulder. Completely oblivious.
Lightweight atom or G wagon. It will be the drivers fault.

[1979scotte]

We all agree that more driver training is vitally important.

Same as cyclists.

And as pedestrians we need to pay more attention too.

Cyclists. Like not riding through red lights.
Pedestrians. So many are plugged in with ear buds or headphones, straight off the kerb to cross a junction, no so much as a look over the shoulder. Completely oblivious.
Lightweight atom or G wagon. It will be the drivers fault.

Imagine the mess an Atom would make 😳

[Petrus]

Back to modern ´safe´ cars:
When on a sunny Sunday drive in your Spyder, would you rather be T-boned by a sixties Renault R4 utility vehicle of by a funny named modern lardy equivalent one weiging at least double?
Do add the likelyhood/difference of the driver paying atention and the speed differential he/she would probably be driving at.
Thát is all safety too. Píng!

So, where is the progress thére?

[1979scotte]

Back to modern ´safe´ cars:
When on a sunny Sunday drive in your Spyder, would you rather be T-boned by a sixties Renault R4 utility vehicle of by a funny named modern lardy equivalent one weiging at least double?
Do add the likelyhood/difference of the driver paying atention and the speed differential he/she would probably be driving at.
Thát is all safety too. Píng!

So, where is the progress thére?

Thr driving in Spain is much worse than here so you a probably right to be worried.