Audiophile Headunit

Started by Dev, March 12, 2021, 16:46

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Dev

  I finally found a unit that fills about 70% of what I need. I have been a car stereo enthusiast for a very long time and the trends are getting worse which I will explain below.
 
 Car audio in the last 15 years has basically gone towards infotainment and less emphasis on sound quality. All of the major brands have traded quality hardware for dazzling displays, phone bluetooth integration, gimmick sound shaping features, navigation and other things but have moved away from the most important focus which is sound quality.

Another aspect that is equally important is  simple ergonomics. A proper head unit is suppose to have dials and switches designed to be felt so you keep your eyes on the road. It should have solid tactile buttons and a display that is not too bright so its not distracting in the cockpit creating glare to the driver.

 Anyway sometimes these newer head units have some hidden features for audiophiles at a good price. Not all brands and not all models but once in a blue moon it happens. This incorporates some of the newer audio tech from 2004 before they mostly vanished.

 Here is the unit Im getting to replace an Alpine that also had hidden features but cannot play most of my 24bit Flac files that I have collected.  The newer Alpine and Pioneer have moved away from sound enthusiasts but make no mistake JVC/Kenwood don't really care either its just that it shows up as a fluke by some adventurous engineer that is probably an audiophile that understands but eventually will be replaced by someone who will take out the good stuff to save money.

  JVC KW-M855BW

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 JVC models are almost the same as Kenwood since they are the same company now so you will find the same features in their reference line
 
 The features that are important to me are.
  1. 24bit -96khz wav and Flac suport
  2. 3 way mode so I can tri amp my components and subwoofer
  3. 5 volt pre-outs that use audiophile capacitors and robust power supply.
  4. 13 band EQ is better than nothing but I wish it had a parametric EQ. This is a big mistake but I can deal with it.
  5. Active network crossovers. These eliminate the passive crossovers in the doors. I can custom tailer the right frequency response and attenuate each speaker.
  6. Time alignment. This can delay each component so the music reaches your ears at the same time from all the speakers. This is great for imaging which is a big problem in most car audio systems.

  If set up the right way the music sounds like you are immersed in it.  This is important because it will beat out any kind of noise cancelation technology and you do not need to crank up the music loudly to enjoy it. Everything is vibrant and thumping.

  Here is what I wish manufactures would do.
  1. Dead head meaning no amplifier in the head unit, only pre-outs
  2. Isolated copper chassis
  3. High volt low impedance pre-outs in the range of 8volts. This makes a big difference.
  4. tactile volume dial.
  5. Parametric EQ.
  6. Build quality

 Sony actually decided to build one for audiophiles but it failed badly. Most everything had to be done by a phone app that was pathetic. No parametric EQ especially for the money. It does have LDAC and can play DSD files which is impressive. The nice big volume knob is a nice feature and so are the looks and build quality but unfortunately it was bench tested to be not that great for the money even though they used audio grade components. For the price it fell short of what Sony was trying to achieve.

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  I thought I would share just incase anyone was interested in sound quality and what is out there that is rarely discussed anymore which is not so much about navigation and other things that dominate the landscape. Most will be happy with something that is a little bit better than the factory unit which is fine also.

Bossworld

Pioneer DEH-P77MP was always held in high regard for sound quality (and appearance in general). Don't suppose it'd support the uncompressed formats but echo your points about how the tech has moved on. Most of the cheaper units still have displays like 1980s calculators

Dev

Quote from: Bossworld on March 12, 2021, 18:42Pioneer DEH-P77MP was always held in high regard for sound quality (and appearance in general). Don't suppose it'd support the uncompressed formats but echo your points about how the tech has moved on. Most of the cheaper units still have displays like 1980s calculators

 I am a fan of  Pioneer PRS line and would have considered them even though a deck I owned in 2007 (Eclipse) was better. The two PRS decks they make are quality and have parametric EQs and active networks. The problem is they keep them around and haven't make any improvements to them which is sad. Audiophiles no longer use CDs or MP3s. Everything is Flac and it will be like that for a long time.
 
 It looks like I have to ride on the backs of what sells as far as mass production garbage to get what I want in hidden features since it brings down the cost.

 I do like the large segmented displays of the vintage decks. At least you could read them and they still look like a professional product.


 


Dev

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I was able to do a subjective bench test with the new unit I received Friday. I do not have an oscilloscope but its not necessary as it has been done on a Kenwood unit by someone on Youtube that has the same guts which has shown to not clip until 5.2 volts which slightly beyond full volume which means that I have to set my gains at full volume unlike previous head units.

 My subjective test consisted of just hearing it though the preamp outputs and comparing it to my Shanling M5s portable high resolution player  which is reference for some of the best sound quality on the market.

 What I found was very good but not as good as my M5s but that is to be expected since the DA converter and op amps in the Shanling are superior. The JVC held together very well to my satisfaction which is saying a lot, which means its not veiled as I thought it might be considering most of the head units today sound terrible. 

 It did well and I am happy but to get that extra it costs so much more. I would say this might be equal to or better than the Pioneer PRS but it plays high resolution files and decodes them correctly to gain the benefit. I suspect it does use high grade capacitors and op amps.   

 Now the bad.
 1. The unit feels cheap but that is to be expected. All of what they are making these days is cheap from all manufactures so no surprises.

 2. The UI is terrible. They could could have cleaned it up making the filing system better. It seems like it was designed by a someone that doesn't understand the benefits of a clean interface and is more about flash.

3.  The sound effect improvements like loudness and presence add distortion and color to the signal. Also there is a technology they employ called K2 which is suppose to restore or improve upon 16bit files to sound like high resolution but it fails by again coloring the sound. Its best to turn off all this stuff and do all of your tuning with the EQ and crossover points.

4. The crossover and EQ are nice but what a disappointment as it only goes down to a 12db slope. There is no 6db slope and I read somewhere it was disappointing for others and it was thought that they did this so idiots that don't know what they are doing wouldn't blow their speakers. I have to suffer because of stupid people.  The EQ is not parametric which I can get around but I did not know it was 1DB increments which are too much. I will have to see what can be done otherwise I will have to get a standalone DSP.

I have to say out of all the disappointment the Apple car play works great.

 This unit will be a stop gap until they finally make a real audiophile unit. I am hopeful  with the way they are going they just might do this sometime in the future otherwise I will need to just buy a good source unit that plays high resolution files with a digital out to a DSP that does what I need.

 If you like features and SQ this unit will be good but I would advise using amps to get the best out of it.

Dev

#4
The new unit is installed and it sounds good. Not the best right now because I am in the tuning phase. I set up the crossover points by ear and I already know the digital delay numbers so I just plugged them in. Thankfully I have a spectrum analyzer which I found a very offensive peak at 63hz which I was able to fix with the eq and taming my gains. The graphics EQ is just too course but I was able to smooth out a few things. Its getting better and surprisingly its mostly closer to being flat which is nice.

The JVC unit sounds alright but when you play 24bit high resolution files its amazing. It seems like they made sure to design the set to bring out the best with high resolution files compared to my previous Alpine.

  I did a bench test for the Alpine to compare.
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 The sound signatures are miles apart. Alpine tends to have more upper midrange and high emphasis to give you the illusion of more clarity. It sounds good but lacks thickness in the mid base which is where the JVC/Kenwood seem be better at.   

 I will use this for two seasons or when they come with something better. The touch screen is completely useless  if you wear sunglasses and without a volume knob is horrendous. Its very hard to change folders and locate music unless you are at a stop light. 
 I would avoid nav units for driving as they are just not located in an ideal place. Maybe one of the floating screens to bring it closer to eye level. 

 

1979scotte

Fair play to you mate I simply couldn't not be bothered to put in the time effort and energy. Not on a roadster.
Maybe in my own listening room if I still had one but not a car.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Dev

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 26, 2021, 22:25Fair play to you mate I simply couldn't not be bothered to put in the time effort and energy. Not on a roadster.
Maybe in my own listening room if I still had one but not a car.

 It is a hobby and that effort is part of the joy. Some people pay through the nose for factory premium sound, this is not much different except I save money doing it myself. The factory systems are also tuned but they often charge more than the system is worth. I can often times do better with less. That is why I didn't want the premium factory Mark Levinson system in my other car. 

I make that investment in my Roadster so I can listen to music when I drive than at home when there is so much more mass media as a distraction.  On a nice country road there is nothing more enjoyable than driving and listening. If it's tuned right it can actually be an immersive blissful experience eliminating road noise and all the creeks and rattles from aged body panels.

vx220

I think the biggest difference with the Pioneer PRS head units is the independent left and right EQ.

I've had the 80prs and the 99rs in my MR2, time alignment and active crossovers only get you so far. The L/R EQ really solidified the centre image.

I would take an L/R EQ over a parametric EQ any day. Not sure any Pioneer head units have PEQ, but I've been out of the head unit game since getting the 99rs!

Also, while -6db slopes are popular in home audio, 4th order (-24db) appear to be most useful in car, minimal phase change at the crossover and increased power handling

Dev

#8
Quote from: vx220 on March 29, 2021, 09:57I think the biggest difference with the Pioneer PRS head units is the independent left and right EQ.

I've had the 80prs and the 99rs in my MR2, time alignment and active crossovers only get you so far. The L/R EQ really solidified the centre image.

I would take an L/R EQ over a parametric EQ any day. Not sure any Pioneer head units have PEQ, but I've been out of the head unit game since getting the 99rs!

Also, while -6db slopes are popular in home audio, 4th order (-24db) appear to be most useful in car, minimal phase change at the crossover and increased power handling

Very nice deck. I played around with the 80 PRS and heard it. The ability to have L/R EQ is a bonus especially over other units that didn't have it or even many of the current stand alone DSPs.

 Most of all the Pioneer decks except the 80 PRS which they still sell does not have the PEQ. Actually almost all decks these days do not have PEQ except for the top of the line flagship Kenwood and JVC that just came out this year. The problem with those decks is they are 10" floating screens which I think is just too big for our cars and will get in the way of the stick shift.

 I have adjusted for very tight imaging using the time alignment. I can get the vocals to be presented in a tight box over the middle of the dash and the music around you where you cant pinpoint the sound coming from the components in the doors. 

  The only reason why I did not purchase the 80 PRS is primarily because most of my collection is in Flac now and much of it 24bit audio which the unit doesn't play. If they were to have upgraded the PRS line I would have bought it in a heart beat.
 I now have bigger issues that I have to solve which I will describe below but it is nice that I found someone that's also into the hobby of good sound for this little car.




Dev

I have become extremely frustrated with this deck for two aspects. I cannot tame the 64hz peak using the EQ and the controls are just about useless. I come to realize that touch screens are not good unless they are at eye level. When you want to change a track you have to look at the screen while driving which is dangerous.

The deck has very tiny volume control buttons which are impossible to find and use as both fit the width of my finger. Take a look at this horrible design. Who ever engineered this should be fired.

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 The problem with the 64 hz was always there when I upgraded my subwoofer to an Alpine self powered sub. The problem with it is its a sealed 8" subwoofer which I thought would be great for tight bass but it is problematic because it thumps sharply and it overshadows lower bass extension. The solution is simple and that is to sell it off and go back to what I originally had with is the Kenwood Woox. The Woox technology is very nice for balanced sub response down to 35hz. I picked up a used one on EBay. 

 As to the biggest problem with the ergonomics I found a solution out of hell.

 I ordered this.
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 This is all new to me as far as the new decks that can now integrate factory steering wheel controls to aftermarket decks. 
 It requires another unit that talks to the controller but it should work and I can program the buttons just the way I like them. Volume, track change, folder change, mute and so on.
 I will be pulling out the deck once more and on the bench for the programing and thankfully there is a way out of touch screen hell. 


Dev

I finished programing last night and its going back in today. This involves two units. The PAC SWI-RC-1 which is a steering wheel control translator. You need to set the dip switches for the kind of car and the brand of the head unit. Since we don't have steering wheel controls that set of dip switches is turned off and the other set dip number 2 was turned on to indicate JVC.  Instructions were poor but I was able to wire it up with the other unit which is the bluetooth box for the aftermarket steering wheel add on. 

I followed the directions for the programing and it works well. The steering wheel add on is well built that it doesn't move or get in the way and the bluetooth has very good range. 

My only complaint is with JVC as their engineers made the volume only up constantly until vol +15 and then you have to keep pressing the volume buttons for each increment until +40. Reducing volume works just fine.

  Most modern aftermarket head units since around 2012 have steering wheel integration and if you have one I highly recommend doing this modification to add steering wheel controls.

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Dev


 Woox sub is here. This bass technology is amazing consisting of one 5 1/2" dual coil 2 ohm sub with a 6" passive radiator. It moves fast but at the same time radiates lows. It sounds like it did before and it is the primary reason for its snappy response.  Its best appreciated when you play the Police with Stuart Coplands off beat drumming.

 The Alpine subwoofer was larger and heavier but its bass quality was not very good bleeding into the mid bass drivers where as this is a complement to where the crossover points meet. 
 The Woox subwoofer is lighter and smaller as well just not as loud which is just fine as long as it sounds nice.

Dev

Not too bad. If I had a parametric EQ it would have been better but I will take it. What surprised me this time with the tuning is I was able to do most of it by ear when setting the crossover points. I finished up what I could with the graphics EQ but it was very limiting. Maybe next time they will have a head unit with a digital out that plays high resolution into a dSP amp that way there is no need for RCA connectors.

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vx220

Which Alpine sub do I need to avoid if I'm coming back to MR2 ownership?

In my last MR2, I put 2 KFCSW11 active subs back to back under the void near the steering column, worked very well

1979scotte

Quote from: vx220 on April  7, 2021, 09:19Which Alpine sub do I need to avoid if I'm coming back to MR2 ownership?

In my last MR2, I put 2 KFCSW11 active subs back to back under the void near the steering column, worked very well

@Petrus

Don't cry but that's 6kg of weight with on added power 🤯
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Petrus

Quote from: 1979scotte on April  7, 2021, 10:17
Quote from: vx220 on April  7, 2021, 09:19Which Alpine sub do I need to avoid if I'm coming back to MR2 ownership?

In my last MR2, I put 2 KFCSW11 active subs back to back under the void near the steering column, worked very well

@Petrus

Don't cry but that's 6kg of weight with on added power 🤯

Horses for courses Scotte.
In the US they are going 17 even 18" wheels in 8, 9J.
At least at thís side of the Atlantic we do not maintain that added weight adds roadholding ....

Dev

#16
Quote from: vx220 on April  7, 2021, 09:19Which Alpine sub do I need to avoid if I'm coming back to MR2 ownership?

In my last MR2, I put 2 KFCSW11 active subs back to back under the void near the steering column, worked very well

 Avoid the Alpine PWE-S8. This sub peaks at 64hz and has almost no lower range. I thought maybe it was my placement in the passenger foot well or some other reason but as I was reading some reviews a few days ago I found out its not just I, it seems that others are complaining about the lack of low end although you can feel it more than you hear it.

 I like sound quality subs where you don't hear the sub as a separate unit or feel it. 98% of subwoofers today including high end factory systems are about boominess which ruins imaging and mid bass response. A subwoofer should be a complement to low end extension not the main course.

Most people never get to hear what fast mid bass response sounds like unless it is a live small concert. In some ways a cars system gives you that with small speakers that can move the drivers to near max excursion which is something you cant exactly do in your home without disturbing others.



Dev

#17
 I make no apologies for having a subwoofer that weighs 3.5kgs. The entire system is very light weight including the amp which is just a little over 1KG but puts out 90x4 RMS that feeds my hungry components with low distortion and a SNR of 109 dB.
 I could just go on a diet and easily make up for it.

There is a big difference with what I have done compared to others that have added big subwoofers, rear speakers and heavy amps. Thats not I.  The reason why people have to add rear speakers and big subs is their system is not properly tuned so they keep adding to fill the void. If you tune a system right it will sound better with much more authority but most of all less weight.

vx220

Thank you. Do you have a link to a build thread for your stereo?

Dev

Quote from: vx220 on April  8, 2021, 07:25Thank you. Do you have a link to a build thread for your stereo?

  I don't have a build thread per-say.  This was an ongoing build for the last 17 years since I removed the factory radio and since then I have gone though a few configurations along with way.

 I can give you a brief summery on what was done.

  I used the existing  OEM speaker wire in the doors for the tweeters and run separate thicker gauge speaker wire though the doors for the mid bass driver. This is so I can bi-amp my components for the 3 way network configuration. The components I run are made by Kurt Muller and company hand assembled in Germany. They are very good for rock music and jazz where they are responsive and the tweeters are aluminum dome and well controlled. Because I do not use passive crossovers the tweeter is now rated at 8 ohms reducing the efficiency a lot however there is an increase in the damping control and this works well since I have plenty of power to drive them.

 I use to have two separate amps for the components behind the seats but have switched to a light weight four channel British amplifier called the Vibe Lightbox that I installed in the frunk. It is a class GH design that is micro controlled and has been very reliable but most of all its extremely light weight. It has clean power that is very efficient with great with transient response so there is no need for a big battery or alternator.

 The subwoofer is back to the Kenwood Woox. Its small but what I like about is the bass remote controller has the crossover circuitry and if you remove it the sub is essentially full range which is better because it is now controlled by the head units DSP crossovers in the digital domain. The Alpine wasn't and its the same with many other amped sub combos where you had to max out the crossover points on the sub which is not ideal because electronic crossovers are not pure.  Going active has a major increase in power and sound quality.

 I used spray deadener on the door panels and on the inside of the door. I did not use sound deadener material because it weighs more. This is to reduce any reflections from the back of the speakers so it doesn't create distortion from the door panels vibrating and to cancel opposing waves which will cause a hole in the frequency response.

Apart from that its a very simple 3 way set up that is light weight. Most all of what makes it sound good is the tuning. I found that if you delay the driver side components by 2ms and the passenger side components by 1ms it has the greatest effect with imaging and bass response. What happens is bass hits first reaching your ears at the same time the components fire which keeps everything in phase and makes it seem like mid bass from the doors are powerful and the subwoofer as a separate source is non existent. After that I do some crossover adjustments using my ears and the RTA and then I use the EQ and RTA to clean it up.

 I hope that is enough information to give you some ideas for your next build. 


 


vx220


Dev

Subwoofer goes pop. It still works but it's a dual coil driver and either one of the amps or the coils has shorted. It was my own doing buying a used 20 year old subwoofer.
 New one is on the way and it should be better with a smaller foot print. It also gives me the ability to boost 50hz if I have to.
Although my system is tuned flat I think its time for a Harmon curve.

 

Dev

New subwoofer installed. This little subwoofer has got very good reviews for its bass output.
It's so small but it outputs like a 10" sub. It's not woozy bass its tight clean bass that is good for rock music.
It appears the passenger footwell is the sweet spot for bass output.  In the past I used the rear storage area and it was terrible for the quality of bass.

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shnazzle

Quote from: Dev on May 10, 2023, 14:30New subwoofer installed. This little subwoofer has got very good reviews for its bass output.
It's so small but it outputs like a 10" sub. It's not woozy bass its tight clean bass that is good for rock music.
It appears the passenger footwell is the sweet spot for bass output.  In the past I used the rear storage area and it was terrible for the quality of bass.

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Very cute thing.
I absolutely loved my USW10 in the footwell. The bass was immense. I still use the same woofer in my Airtrek but it doesn't sound anywhwere near as in the 2

I tried it in the mr2 bins and also behind the passenger seat against the wall and it sounded crap
...neutiquam erro.

Dev

The bins sounds distorted. Probably best for a ported enclosure for deep bass without any bass notes. Too much weight also.
 Many people that compete in car audio found that the footwell works the best in terms of clean bass output.
 I do not know what magic JBL/Infinity did but this thing thumps. I had the Infinity version on the side of the footwell where you see the velcro and it has been good even with my last subwoofers I had but having it against the firewall as I positioned it now raised the db a good bit and filled in some bass voids.
 I was afraid that a passenger will find it difficult to sit but there is plenty of leg room because its small.

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