Fuel consumption - E10?

[Mikeymead]

Over the last couple of years having had a van that I use daily which has an average MPG display I have noticed that the average fuel consumption will go down by about 2 MPG over the winter period and again increase as the weather warms up. Due to the van having a DPF and the fact that it is used over relatively short runs and very little motorway driving I tend to use BP ultimate diesel so can't really comment on E10 (I don't even recommend it to customers to use in their mowers). The point I'm getting to in my round about way is that an other factor to bear in mind is that engines probably run slightly richer in colder weather and fuel companies change the formula of fuel for winter use which I gather is slightly less efficient that the summer fuel but is more volatile to allow combustion at lower temperatures.       

[Ardent]

@Mikeymead

I have to agree with your observations, with the proviso that historically, that would have been with E5.
With E10 will it be more pronounced? I can see it already.

[McMr2]

Over the last couple of years having had a van that I use daily which has an average MPG display I have noticed that the average fuel consumption will go down by about 2 MPG over the winter period and again increase as the weather warms up. Due to the van having a DPF and the fact that it is used over relatively short runs and very little motorway driving I tend to use BP ultimate diesel so can't really comment on E10 (I don't even recommend it to customers to use in their mowers). The point I'm getting to in my round about way is that an other factor to bear in mind is that engines probably run slightly richer in colder weather and fuel companies change the formula of fuel for winter use which I gather is slightly less efficient that the summer fuel but is more volatile to allow combustion at lower temperatures.       

That was one of my original points - have observed increased consumption in winters past but it seems more pronounced. Entirely unscientific, granted, but not many other factors have changed.

[Beachbum957]

Here are some prices today at a local large independent convenience store chain station near us in US dollars and US gallons. The octanes (second column) are US spec.  This station carries Top Tier fuel which has extra additives, but is common in our area.  Some other stations are less, but not by much.  Our state has one of the highest gas taxes in the US, so most other states are less.

E10 87  $3.63  (regular - used by nearly all cars)
E10 89  $3.93  (plus)
E10 93  $4.43  (supreme - most supreme is 91 octane)
E15 87  $3.38
E85 105 $2.98
Ethanol Free 90 $4.45
Auto Diesel $3.95

The conversion today from dollars per gallon to pence per liter is listed  as 1 to 19.8, so (I think I have this right)

E10 87 - 71.8p / litre
E10 93 - 87.7p / litre
Ethanol free - 88.1p / litre

Prices change a lot, even day to day, so this is just today

[Beachbum957]

Tracking fuel consumption can drive you nuts, as every station may have a slightly different automatic cut off at the nozzle, plus as noted, weather makes a difference as well as differences in summer fuel and winter fuel.  Driving the same roads, getting fuel from the same station, our mileage will vary 1-2 mpg per fill up on every car.  We just track it to capture any significant changes.

But here is a curious one.  Years ago, we regularly drove up and down the Eastern US in the same vehicle (a mid size van), taking the same roads, and only stopping for fuel.  The trips were normally about 1,000 miles in length each way.  We regularly got 1-2 mpg better (about 5%) going north to south, than from south to north! It wasn't elevation change as that wasn't much.  It wasn't speed as we used cruise control and ran the same speeds.  The only conclusion was a difference in prevailing winds.  The prevailing winds in the US are east to west, and going south, we always went slightly westward.  This was somewhat confirmed when weather systems changed the wind directions, and the MPG was about the same in both directions, which would be the normal expectation.

Similarly, we just did a 500 mile trip this past weekend that was south to northeast, and then back southwest another 500 miles on the same roads with similar traffic.  The mileage each way was different by over 1 mpg.  We just noted the difference, not which way was better.

We also have 2 MRS (Spyders in the US).  They are set up similarly and are driven on mostly the same roads.  The 2002 regularly averages 32-34 mpg, and a 2003 regularly is 31 to 32 mpg.

After tracking fuel mileage 100's of thousands of miles on dozens of vehicles, our conclusion is it takes a very long time to find an average that is representative, and each tank can easily vary 1-2 mpg or more.  We still track it mostly just for curiosity.

[Joesson]

@Beachbum957 said:
"We also have 2 MRS (Spyders in the US).  They are set up similarly and are driven on mostly the same roads.  The 2002 regularly averages 32-34 mpg, and a 2003 regularly is 31 to 32 mpg"

Remember that the PFL <2003 is a lighter car than the FL 2003>.

[Ardent]

@Beachbum957

Thanks for the numbers and conversions.
88.1p a litre ethanol free and we are paying  143p for e10.
Off to sit under the stairs in the dark and weep.

Maybe different  RON ratings as well.
EU spec is generally 95
US spec seems much lower.
Is that where the diff ecu's come in. Plus the j spec is diff again.

[Beachbum957]

Remember that the PFL <2003 is a lighter car than the FL 2003>.

There isn't much difference in the US models.  The biggest difference was the weight of a 6 speed transmission compared to a 5 speed. Both of our cars are running manual 6 speed transmissions, have the same wheels and tires, and even the same small "bicycle" spare tire. But our 2002 has a lot of extra bracing added and the 2003 does not, so in our case, our 2002 may actually weight slightly more than our 2003.

[Beachbum957]

EU, Japan, and Australia octanes are RON (research octane number), while US numbers are derived from an average of RON and MON (motor octane number), so a 95 RON in the UK is similar to 91 octane in the US. 

The calculation for US octane is (R+M)/2. and the numbers typically are 8 to 10 numbers different.  So a 91 RON would be about 83 MON or 87 octane in the US, which is the most common "regular" gas used by most cars.

The ECM's are different depending on the market, but how they vary seems to be a hidden secret.

Sorry about your fuel prices.  US car owners constantly complain about gas prices, until they go to another country!

[Joesson]

Remember that the PFL <2003 is a lighter car than the FL 2003>.

There isn't much difference in the US models.  The biggest difference was the weight of a 6 speed transmission compared to a 5 speed. Both of our cars are running manual 6 speed transmissions, have the same wheels and tires, and even the same small "bicycle" spare tire. But our 2002 has a lot of extra bracing added and the 2003 does not, so in our case, our 2002 may actually weight slightly more than our 2003.

OE, UK, PFL is lighter than the FL because of the transmission and the extra bracing on the FL, so an incorrect assumption on my part.

[Petrus]

All F1 engine manufacturers have meanwhile confirmed that the new E10 reduces performance; less power, less range.

[Petrus]

Cleaning the fuel system of my Husaberg. The gum is proving near impossible to clean from the fuel tap gauze. Had the taps soaking in a bowl with gasoline and.... it evaporated within 24 hrs!! Mind, it is cold here and 60% humidity.
Will get some agressive industrial degreaser. Should break down any residu, fingers crossed.
Not amused with modern gas.

[TheTigerUK]

I always use Shell V-Power ULD now at £1.639 per L, filled up this morning 34.22 Ltr @ £56.09

I tend to ave late 30s MPG.

[Petrus]

Not amused with modern gas.
Pay more, get less.

[Chilli Girl]

I always use Shell V-Power ULD now at £1.639 per L, filled up this morning 34.22 Ltr @ £56.09

I tend to ave late 30s MPG.

Hi John, I paid exactly that price last night down here - I only managed half a tank at that price.  Thought, I'd see how Sapphire gets on with that for now but I don't think I'll be filling her up full at those prices.  I may just put half and half in next visit.

[TheTigerUK]

I always use Shell V-Power ULD now at £1.639 per L, filled up this morning 34.22 Ltr @ £56.09

I tend to ave late 30s MPG.

Hi John, I paid exactly that price last night down here - I only managed half a tank at that price.  Thought, I'd see how Sapphire gets on with that for now but I don't think I'll be filling her up full at those prices.  I may just put half and half in next visit.

I can't see me doing a full fill very often Jane, I sold a watch so I had a little extra cash in my pocket normally I put £20 in but I thought with a full fill I can check the MPG more accurately each time I fill.

[shnazzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU

The sources aren't 100% kosher but it's still interesting and generally the guy doesn't spout too much sh*te, so it's interesting

[105e]

Saw that a couple of days ago,  actually watched it till the end...

[McMr2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-yDKeya4SU

The sources aren't 100% kosher but it's still interesting and generally the guy doesn't spout too much sh*te, so it's interesting

Have seen this guy's videos in the past, he talks sense and seems to know his stuff.

[Petrus]

Ethanol used sold as for the environment has always primarily been about less dependence from oil.

Same thing we see now as an important reason to nót dampen the shockingly rapid fuel price rises. For western gvts it is a win-win-win: A politically cost free income generating incentive for the consumers to reduce the use.

[A7DUO]

What I am also interested in (now UK E10 introduction is a few months down the line) is: are there any examples of parts on the trusty VVTi 1.8 suffering yet as a consequence of the 'miracle' bio fuel (other thank water retention over time, which is a given in storage).  I'm thinking fuel lines, injector seals things like that.  Early days I guess, and as far as Toyota is concerned generally I take it they have said technically we can run it? (because I don't really trust the DVLA E10 compatibility tool at all - I consider that a random number generator really as it gives not detail or supporting evidence).  A couple of vehicles I owned up until the middle of last year weren't compatible at all (mid1990s Suzuki and 90's K-series Rover block in a Caterham) - so I was pleased to hear Toyotas and Honda's post y2k should be 'safe' if filled up with the new stuff in comparison - but in reality, I really don't know how true this is long-term.  Time will tell I am sure.

[Chilli Girl]

Welcome by the way. My '99 CB500 will remain on E5 and that was also backed up by my bike mechanic too

[A7DUO]

Yes quite right too for bikes - even my 2017 Ducati Supersport has to stay on E5 (in fact all Ducatis do really) - I guess its not to bad for bikes for 'fair weather riders' like me, as I don't do that many miles on them.  My little 125 Honda Monkey summer commuter is fine on E10 though as thats a 2018 and Honda have been geared-up for E10 for a while now, especially on their 125's & 250s, and thanks for the welcome - what a great little forum 

[Ardent]

Been covered on here a few times.
 As you say too early to tell.
Will it run on e10? Yes.
Optimally? No.

[Zxrob]

Yes quite right too for bikes - even my 2017 Ducati Supersport has to stay on E5 (in fact all Ducatis do really) - I guess its not to bad for bikes for 'fair weather riders' like me, as I don't do that many miles on them.  My little 125 Honda Monkey summer commuter is fine on E10 though as thats a 2018 and Honda have been geared-up for E10 for a while now, especially on their 125's & 250s, and thanks for the welcome - what a great little forum 

My 2005 zx6r has to stay on E5, 2007 onwards are ok for E10 according to Kawasaki

Rob