Now for the ol' razzle shnazzle

[MrChris]

I'd wash them thoroughly with petrol.  Yes petrol - get all the old dry grease out and force in plenty of fresh grease.  you don't want the bearings sloppy.  If, by 'pretty bad- you mean tight, then clean and re-grease will be fine.  If you mean loads of play - they're done.

Well they were tight when I first tried to move them, then I pumped some WD-40 in and they started spinning. Thinking I might get away with them.

[shnazzle]

Is it wise to use 5kg springs on front and back? There's usually a 2kg differencr between the two.

Unless the rears are bad, in which case just replace both rears with 5kg,which should be OK. 

[MrChris]

Is it wise to use 5kg springs on front and back? There's usually a 2kg differencr between the two.

Unless the rears are bad, in which case just replace both rears with 5kg,which should be OK.

Sorry not sure what you mean? The idea is to replace both fronts with 5kg ones that AJR is sending and leave the rears for now as they should be fine.

[shnazzle]

Sorry not sure what you mean? The idea is to replace both fronts with 5kg ones that AJR is sending and leave the rears for now as they should be fine.

Ah OK sorry. 
Cool. Bit stiffer but ultimately what the struts were made for 

[MrChris]

Small update: put some new rear pads on which also let me wind in the pistons and then out one full turn. Ready for rebleed and another hand brake adjustment.

@Carolyn  i got my wires crossed regarding the top mounts, i was describing some kind of race below the top mount. The top mount bearing itself was fairly stuck as it happens so used your technique of using petrol and i also threw in some plusgas for good measure. Its moving much mote freely now. I will try and clean it some more after I've cooled down then pump some grease in.

Hopefully the springs will be with me tomorrow and I'll have a fresh ticket this week.

[MrChris]

Two packages have arrived since last update, the springs from @AJRFulton and a pack of odds from @shnazzle - thank you both!

The springs are on, the car is almost ready for its MOT retest tomorrow. But I'll be damned if I can get the handbrake set....

- The driver side wheel with handbrake on seems okay. It doesn't budge when I try to move the wheel.
- The passenger side (which I thought was the better side) does not hold - i.e. I can move the wheel with my hands.

I have used all the tricks on the forum. The cables are moving. The handbrake works... a bit. If I adjust too much then the brakes drag. If I let off the adjustment, the passenger side moves... arg!

[Joesson]

@Mr Chris
Did you reset the caliper pistons?

[shnazzle]

Two packages have arrived since last update, the springs from @AJRFulton and a pack of odds from @shnazzle - thank you both!

The springs are on, the car is almost ready for its MOT retest tomorrow. But I'll be damned if I can get the handbrake set....

- The driver side wheel with handbrake on seems okay. It doesn't budge when I try to move the wheel.
- The passenger side (which I thought was the better side) does not hold - i.e. I can move the wheel with my hands.

I have used all the tricks on the forum. The cables are moving. The handbrake works... a bit. If I adjust too much then the brakes drag. If I let off the adjustment, the passenger side moves... arg!

Makes me wonder. The handbrake worked surprisingly well before I left it sitting over winter with the handbrake on. So that suggests the cables aren't stretched (beyond serviceable use anyway).

If the cables are moving, that then suggests the mechanisms on the calipers have seized.
One of the last things I did was free them up with Plusgas until I could move the lever arms with my hands. That was a few days before it went to you.
Which then leaves the pistons themselves and/or the slider pins. I haven't done anything with them. They needed replacing soon. I cleaned them up with some fine sand paper and re-lubed them when I last did the brakes, but they were pitted.
As a final attempt I would
- hand brake Off. Make sure front wheels are on wheel blocks and passenger rear lifted.
- take the caliper off the carrier completely (don't need to disconnect brake line again).
- If you have to hammer it off, you know what the issue is! If not, check the slider pins for easy movement and add ceratec
- take the pads out and check that they refit easily into the clips. If not, remove clips and use small file to file the notches flat so that the clips sit nicely and the pads just drop in without resistance.
- and lastly, wind the piston out, apply grease, wind in, wind out, grease, wind in. Fit pads and caliper.
- turn on engine, make sure hand brake is still off
- press brake a good few times until it feels solid
- hold brake
- pull handbrake.

Sounds like a lot but should be doable in about 30-45min

[MrChris]

Stuff

Thanks, I did just drive it down the road to try and bed in the brakes a bit. The calipers are brand new and they were wound fully in and then out one full turn, they also have new pads. The mechanisms seem fine to me.

The car is holding better than it did after doing some adjustment... I'm taking some spanners with me to the MOT station... fingers crossed.

[MrChris]

Well bugger. It failed on the handbrake. Everything else is fine. The failure was "Parking brake efficiency less than 50% of the required value".

I've attached the brake test report. It's actually worse than the previous one where I achieved 12% efficiency (vs 8% now) and 55kgf (left) and 73kgf (right) on the other test. The brakes themselves seem fine and well balanced (unless I'm not reading the report properly). So I'm starting to think it's now time for new cables afterall... 

Edit: so I've worked out through MATHS and GOOGLE that the target (or minimum) efficiency is 16% which is 16% of the vehicle's weight which is 1060kg. So my target is 169.6kgf. Still think it may be time for new cables though. Had a look at them again and the right one (which is the better one) moves way more than the left one...

You cannot view this attachment.

[mr2garageswindon]

I see 120 kg ish per side on a handbrake working correctly when moting mr2s.
It is VITALLY IMPORTANT that the nipples on the back of the pad goes into the slot on the piston.
I would check that 1st or it will never be much good.
The levers on the calipers (cable attaches to) Must rest against the stop pin when handbrake released.
If either of these are not correct it will forever be crap.

Easy to check no parts required.
ps I never have had to wind the piston back out to meet the pad. Wind all the way in, make sure nipple in hole, pump the brakes hard, then set the handbrake cable bingo sorted.

[MrChris]

I see 120 kg ish per side on a handbrake working correctly when moting mr2s.
It is VITALLY IMPORTANT that the nipples on the back of the pad goes into the slot on the piston.
I would check that 1st or it will never be much good.
The levers on the calipers (cable attaches to) Must rest against the stop pin when handbrake released.
If either of these are not correct it will forever be crap.

Easy to check no parts required.
ps I never have had to wind the piston back out to meet the pad. Wind all the way in, make sure nipple in hole, pump the brakes hard, then set the handbrake cable bingo sorted.

Thanks for the insight, really useful. 120kgf per side - it's what dreams are made of 

I'll give all of this a go before getting the new cables!

[Ardent]

I see 120 kg ish per side on a handbrake working correctly when moting mr2s.
It is VITALLY IMPORTANT that the nipples on the back of the pad goes into the slot on the piston.
I would check that 1st or it will never be much good.
The levers on the calipers (cable attaches to) Must rest against the stop pin when handbrake released.
If either of these are not correct it will forever be crap.

Easy to check no parts required.
ps I never have had to wind the piston back out to meet the pad. Wind all the way in, make sure nipple in hole, pump the brakes hard, then set the handbrake cable bingo sorted.

Would you mind just clarifying something for me?
"The levers on the calipers (cable attaches to) Must rest against the stop pin when handbrake released."
As in, the crank arms must be on the stop pins prior to taking up the slack and then applying the adjustment.
As once the slack is taken up and adjustment applied to obtain 5-8 clicks the crank arms will no longer be returning to the stop pins.
Or,
Pump the brakes, set the cable (5-8 clicks) and still the crank arms should rest on the stops when released?

[mr2garageswindon]

The crank arms must rest on the pins after cable adjustment.
1 loosen off hb cable.
2 wind back pistons make sure nipple aligns with piston cut out. (You can do 1 at a time)
3 pump the brakes hard
4 adjust the cable allowing a small amount of free play before it actually pulls cable. (Check crank arms on pins still)
5 Test hand brake.
6 Smug feeling its fixed, cuppa and MOT re test.

[AJRFulton]

Glad the springs arrived ok bud. Glad somebody is getting use of them - been sat on a shelf for 4yrs

Hopefully the ride is fine with them.

[MrChris]

The crank arms must rest on the pins after cable adjustment.
1 loosen off hb cable.
2 wind back pistons make sure nipple aligns with piston cut out. (You can do 1 at a time)
3 pump the brakes hard
4 adjust the cable allowing a small amount of free play before it actually pulls cable. (Check crank arms on pins still)
5 Test hand brake.
6 Smug feeling its fixed, cuppa and MOT re test.

Thanks for the point by point - I've used it to check everything.

1) Cable was loosened
2) My nipples are aligned (!)
3) Pumped
4) Adjusted
5) Hand brake is still next to useless

I've repeated the steps several times. I've even adjusted the cable to it's absolute maximum and it still doesn't hold. I went to a steep hill round the corner and  the only way I can get the handbrake to hold the car is to pull on it with both hands and my bodyweight behind it. When using normally, the cables do move... but so does the car. This can only mean one thing? Stretched cables? Any other ideas? Such a shame as the rest of the car is golden.

[Call the midlife!]

I can't be bothered looking back through the thread, what are the calipers and pistons/piston seals like?
If you can get someone to work the handbrake lever for you while you watch the pistons you should see movement, just bear in mind we're talking about a few mm not half an inch.
If the cables are properly adjusted and working the levers on the calipers then it points to the internals not driving the pistons out to me.

[MrChris]

I can't be bothered looking back through the thread, what are the calipers and pistons/piston seals like?
If you can get someone to work the handbrake lever for you while you watch the pistons you should see movement, just bear in mind we're talking about a few mm not half an inch.
If the cables are properly adjusted and working the levers on the calipers then it points to the internals not driving the pistons out to me.

The calipers and their corresponding pistons/seals are new. These ones in fact:
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ridex/16147532

I'd be very shocked if these weren't working, which is why I'm now thinking the handbrake cables are stretched.

[shnazzle]

Is there any difference between pulling the handbrake whilst braking and just pulling the handbrake? 

[Joesson]

The calipers and their corresponding pistons/seals are new. These ones in fact:
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/ridex/16147532

I'd be very shocked if these weren't working, which is why I'm now thinking the handbrake cables are stretched.

Your complete process seems to be what I did although my calipers were from another source.
The new caliper pistons, as supplied , were screwed right in and backed off to position the caliper cut out with the pad , I checked this to be sure.
The pumping bit I believe is also very important as this moves the piston and pad towards the disc for the correct starting position.
From that position I then adjusted the cable length from inside the car to give six clicks to hard on.
This was checked by trying to rotate the locked wheels by hand.

I have read on here that replacing cables has cured a poor handbrake but have not been able to understand why that can be the case other than if only one cable is stretched.
If both cables stretch to the same degree then it should make no difference to the braking operation as the adjustment, as checked by the angularity of the cable link bar, is equal for each side.

[MrChris]

Is there any difference between pulling the handbrake whilst braking and just pulling the handbrake?

What am I looking for?

I've left it alone for now as I've had some other bits to do. Will try and get to it later.

I have read on here that replacing cables has cured a poor handbrake but have not been able to understand why that can be the case other than if only one cable is stretched.
If both cables stretch to the same degree then it should make no difference to the braking operation as the adjustment, as checked by the angularity of the cable link bar, is equal for each side.

Hmm well the cables do not pull equally, to start with they do, but as I adjust more and more the bar gets more sideways. Though I've read and seen YouTube videos that suggest this isn't necessarily a problem as long as the cables move.

This is an absolute dark art it seems to get these working. Even if one cable is stretched and the other isn't, shouldn't there be reasonable braking performance still?

[fawtytoo]

Hmm well the cables do not pull equally, to start with they do, but as I adjust more and more the bar gets more sideways.

A garage replaced my nearside cable, but the cable didn't last long (non OEM) and went stiff. The result was exactly what you describe. Both cables have now been replaced (OEM in my case), and pull on equally.

I also had new discs as the offside disc was corroded therefore affected handbrake efficiency. If one side doesn't hold, the other may not make up for it, or work either.

[Joesson]

@MrChris said:

Hmm well the cables do not pull equally, to start with they do, but as I adjust more and more the bar gets more sideways. Though I've read and seen YouTube videos that suggest this isn't necessarily a problem as long as the cables move.

This is an absolute dark art it seems to get these working. Even if one cable is stretched and the other isn't, shouldn't there be reasonable braking performance still?


To my thinking if when you adjust the cables one moves more than the other that must mean that there is more resistance to movement on the side that is moving less?

My understanding is that the cables are coated, with Teflon I believe, this should mean that lubrication is unnecessary, but these cables are around twenty years old.
Lubricating, to help free them up has been spoken of on here, and maybe that could help, unless you've already done that.
My thoughts are based on what I've read on here about the problem, the How Too on here and my recent own experience- When I expected the worst but didn't find it.

Changing the cables seems to be something not to undertake unless you have exhausted other possibilities, but when you do something and it doesn't work, and you try again several times, there has to be a point at which enough is enough.

[MrChris]

Changing the cables seems to be something not to undertake unless you have exhausted other possibilities, but when you do something and it doesn't work, and you try again several times, there has to be a point at which enough is enough.

Agreed, think I'm there!

As for cables, some places do not have the facelift cables in stock. Are all after market cables really that bad? There's a selection on Autodoc for example from a few manufacturers.

[Joesson]

Agreed, think I'm there!

As for cables, some places do not have the facelift cables in stock. Are all after market cables really that bad? There's a selection on Autodoc for example from a few manufacturers.

I do not know, but I find it difficult to understand why another brand of cable should be very different to a Toyota branded cable.
I believe I'm correct in saying that Toyota do not make steel cable, coat it and put it into an outer casing, that will be done by another company, maybe one that also supplies Autodoc, who do have a good selection of parts for our cars. Only downside is their delivery time, but it is what is is and I worked around it.
Not so different to the tale of our Oxygen sensors.
When I first had my 2, before I was a Member on here, I asked  a motor engineering relative about replacing a dud.
Only buy branded sensors was his advice, and he favoured Bosch products and they can be replaced individually.
Since that conversation I have bought, on two separate occasions, two NGK sensors. I have those and an OE Denso in my car. No problems.

PS
Iirc TCB an affiliate on the Forum offers the best price for Toyota brake cables tel:01579 20383879