Stock pfl versus mine

Started by Petrus, April 19, 2023, 22:50

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Petrus

Saw a pfl of the same model year as mine for sale in the region. Totally stock, even the same color!

So called to go for a test drive with it as a comparison.
Tuesday morning drove thereabouts in mine.
As if to emphasize the crux; the weight difference, it was fitted with the hard top. Took it for a spin over the twisty bits in the mountains.
Went back home in mine.
As ceteris paribus back to back as it comes: After - before - after.

To add sóme measure of measuring had the performance app of my phone. Not of hard absolute value of course but the accellerometer does gives on arder of difference.

Ok, obviously the same car but the compound effect of the mods on mine is striking.
I would not say mine is bétter because the choice by Toyota to make the fl a bit more ´user friendly´ still, underlines that the majority of drivers prefers more stablity and less oversteer.
First impression was bit shocking because hopping straight in out of mine, I did not give it enough stick  :-[
The stock model is delightfully balanced and although responsive, very forgivingly so. Same thing the throttle response; direct but soft.
Overall it was like driving a very sweet sporty sedan compared to mine. The pleasantly soft suspension dealt with everything at the price of modest roll.

Mine is a lót stiffer, firmer, agressive on the throttle, can be called twitchy so rapidly it responds to all steering input.
So no, mine is definitely nót a bétter car.

Breaking it a bit down:
The added bracing on mine translates to much less road conformation; less comfortably adjusting to the undulations of the road. The same but reverse can be said about stabilty of course. Mine is as much more like on rails.
The effect on ´scuttle shake´ is about evening out. The stock one moving just that bit more versus mine ´jarring´ more.
That latter brings me to the suspension. Mine is on Sportivo kit and whitelines which is firmer which translates to less roll, better stability but more directly transferred road surface imperfections.
I should also mention that the stock springs have a front / rear rate relation of 100% / 150% whereas the Sportivos are apart from being stiffer 100% / 200% making the rear suspension respond to directional changes set in by the front that much quicker too.

I found the oem power steering éver so comfortable when manouvering through the village but it deminishess the feed back from the road, about the traction availeble, in equal measure.

Performance wise:
The brakes on mine are as much directer and effective as can be expected with >15% less weight.
On accelleration the difference was the largest of all. Less weight. lightweight flywheel ánd improved breathing plus the MAF mod make the car almost agressively on the throttle in comparison.
The efforts I put into allowing the thing to breathe has paid off higher up the rev scale even more. Mine simply keeps going undeminished whereas the stock engine has increasingly more effort to rise in revs.
The accelerometer confirmed the above. Still the max difference being around 25% surprised me. Logical; less weight x freed up horses, but still rather a lot.

The stock car had oem cloth seats versus mine hard buckets. That no doubt affects the seat of the pants feeling of mine so the accelerometer was a useful confirmation.

Bottom line; what a difference the weight makes? ALL the difference! Mine is éver so much more direct and responsive; so much more MR2 because less MR2.
The caveat being that most drivers will find mine an uncomfortable, nervous twitchy thing trying to kill ye. Ok, ok, within the scope of it still beng a relatively forgiving mid engined car.
The stock car is simply a véry well set up sporty car that is very forgiving in every aspect everywhere. Can´t fault that. No sir. So I don´t. As a well balanced runabout package it is just right.

It also convinced me that I am on the right thing for mé. The soft top is coming out too.

Ardent


puma2

 :) :) that is some input on that.
thankyou for time on that 1 :)  :)

Petrus

One thing I did not mention was the foor clutch versius the electro-hydraulic on mine. This because it is not the crux of the comparison; de compound effect of the mods.
It took me no time at all to adjust because the other family wheels have a foot clutch.

Operating the foot clutch means exerting force with you leg means an opposity force meaning bracing your body meaning almost automatically steering wheel too.
I réally like that the smt means you sit independently.

Réally hilly meant quite a bit of shifting into/out of corners and also uphill from standstill. I always use the handbrake, with the smt too, and even though experience makes me better than average the electronics are faultless whereas I am not.

Never mind the perceived sportyness or reliability issues, the smt allows you to driver better. Yes bétter, because it elimnates the forces of the clutch operation. No matter whom say what, the foot bone ís connected to you nthe hand bone so clutch operations means you need to avoid egffect on steering. With the smt it is simly point and squirt; concentrate on steering only.
 

JB21

Cant even imagine how a standard ZZW30 would feel compared to mine, I'd hazard a guess at totally underwhelming.

Petrus

Quote from: JB21 on April 20, 2023, 11:05Cant even imagine how a standard ZZW30 would feel compared to mine, I'd hazard a guess at totally underwhelming.

I could not imagine either  ;)   hence it being high on my whish list  :))
Seriously, it is ever so enlightning.
I did not find it underwhelming at all actually.
If anything, in the light of this car being so sensitive to even slight changes, the nigh perfect average real world user balance the factory achieved from the starting blocks is impressive.
Having now the back to back ceteris paribus comparative experience, I am even more negatively critical of the automotive journalist of the day moaning about the car needing more power. It most definitely does not for the target user. For a mid engined consumer oriented car it is a nimble yet forgiving as possible.
Over here it is beyond reasonable expectations as there simply are very few about but in your UK back garden, I say make a bit of effort and dríve a few.
Imo the base car is só good that whatever anyone does to it short of @AdamR28 lightness  ;) , V6/Honda turbo or stupidly large wheels, it remains a good package.



Joesson

Quote from: Petrus on April 20, 2023, 09:40One thing I did not mention was the foor clutch versius the electro-hydraulic on mine. This because it is not the crux of the comparison; de compound effect of the mods.
It took me no time at all to adjust because the other family wheels have a foot clutch.

Operating the foot clutch means exerting force with you leg means an opposity force meaning bracing your body meaning almost automatically steering wheel too.
I réally like that the smt means you sit independently.

Réally hilly meant quite a bit of shifting into/out of corners and also uphill from standstill. I always use the handbrake, with the smt too, and even though experience makes me better than average the electronics are faultless whereas I am not.

Never mind the perceived sportyness or reliability issues, the smt allows you to driver better. Yes bétter, because it elimnates the forces of the clutch operation. No matter whom say what, the foot bone ís connected to you nthe hand bone so clutch operations means you need to avoid egffect on steering. With the smt it is simly point and squirt; concentrate on steering only.
 

IF F1 is the pinnacle of motoring then we can take note that a "foot clutch" has not featured in an F1 car for some time, likely for a reason not too dissimilar to Petrus's thoughts.

Petrus

#7
Quote from: Joesson on April 20, 2023, 16:36IF F1 is the pinnacle of motoring then we can take note that a "foot clutch" has not featured in an F1 car for some time, likely for a reason not too dissimilar to Petrus's thoughts.


Píng  ;)
Same thing wrc.

but, but, it may be better, quicker, safer but it fééls less sporting  :))

I agree to some extend so do use the stick to shift. Best of two worlds imo.

But, nothing to do with the stock vs mods so left it out of the comparison.
The crux of the comparison being largely the adding of lightness.
Summed up THÁT retains the basics of the car with thís difference that everything is quicker, more direct, more responsive. The effect being more and earlier feedback making the car appear more nervous but in reality adding safety margin.

Dev

People like what they like or what they are use to. I found the SMT transmission to be significantly slower than manual but I do like the quick downshifts.

We have come a long way from early SMT and now auto or semi auto transmissions today are more efficient and quicker with cars that are faster than they have ever been. On paper there is no denying the advantage but despite all of its faults the manual transmission is still preferred by many and making a comeback.
This is because of the analog mechanical connection to the driver which is fulfilling not just for driving fast but everything in between.
 



Petrus

Quote from: Dev on April 20, 2023, 17:59People like what they like or what they are use to. I found the SMT transmission to be significantly slower than manual but I do like the quick downshifts.

No discussing taste/preference. Because of the nice downshifts and the elimination of action = -reaction by/on the driver I find it ever so much easier and enjoyable though the mountain twisties.
The action has markedly sped up after fitting the lightweight flywheel btw.  Again though thát not being a comparative element. The way the whole car responds to changes in revs is and that is more of a difference than the few kilos it saves suggests untill you factor in the revs and gear multiplication factor. Even though I was aware of the mathematics, the effect on the car still surprised me.

Dev

#10
Quote from: Petrus on April 20, 2023, 18:09No discussing taste/preference. Because of the nice downshifts and the elimination of action = -reaction by/on the driver I find it ever so much easier and enjoyable though the mountain twisties.
The action has markedly sped up after fitting the lightweight flywheel btw.  Again though thát not being a comparative element. The way the whole car responds to changes in revs is and that is more of a difference than the few kilos it saves suggests untill you factor in the revs and gear multiplication factor. Even though I was aware of the mathematics, the effect on the car still surprised me.

 We are clearly on different paths.  It is because the manual transmission is not as smooth is the reason why I like it more because it is rewarding when I get it right as a stab the brakes. It is the mastery of the machine being the commander is same reason why I like no traction control because it is analog and engaging. Cars are faster than they ever been so for road driving I like a challenge but at slower speeds so I feel the thrill of my actions.




Petrus

#11
Quote from: Dev on April 20, 2023, 18:19We are clearly on different paths.  It is because the manual transmission is not as smooth is the reason why I like it more because it is rewarding when I get it right as a stab the brakes. It is the mastery of the machine being the commander is same reason why I like no traction control. Cars are faster than they ever were so if you are road driving I like a challenge but at slower speeds so I feel the thrill of my actions. 


Yes we are on different tracks.
For me the MR2 is about the way I can enjoy stringing the local roads through the mountains together. The smt  supports that.
For the rewarding shift feeling I have the 84 year old Nimbus. It even has a neutral between 2nd and 3rd to allow for (réal) double clutching on the down shift with a loaded chair  :))
But, again, all NOT part of the stock vs mods comparison.

Zxrob

#12
interesting write up @Petrus

I would however wager that a good % of folk keep them as standard and are quite happy with them, every car can be improved, even the top of the range sports cars. The MR2 has a wonderful base chassis that can be seriously improved, they are a lovely little fun car, good to start with, mega when transformed

Rob
Adventure before dementia 😁

Petrus

Why the ´however´ Rob?
I thought I clearly wrote that the stock car is spot on. Twice. At least.

mr2garageswindon

Only issue I found driving SMT cars is reversing into a parking space on a slope.. bit more.. bit more.. Bang oops.
Same as semi auto trucks onto a loading bay on a slope.

Dev

#15
Quote from: Zxrob on April 20, 2023, 21:39interesting write up @Petrus

I would however wager that a good % of folk keep them as standard and are quite happy with them, every car can be improved, even the top of the range sports cars. The MR2 has a wonderful base chassis that can be seriously improved, they are a lovely little fun car, good to start with, mega when transformed

Rob

That is very true, every car can be improved as we see in the specialty subcompact models. Just add suspension, engine and fancy badging. With normal commuter  cars being as fast as they are it seems pointless. Why would I want a souped up factory car.

 What is truly unique about our platform compared to others of the same genre is we were dumbed down from the factory. Its still a great car but when you add some minor changes the results are exponential. When you do the same thing with  a factory car that is advertised for high performance there is only diminishing returns because they are already maxed out with better components particularly tires.

 It was considered blasphemy if you tried to make comparisons to these greater cars like the lotus but there was a magazine that did some minor modifications with adding a turbo and some light suspension work and was able to match the lotus and exceed it in some areas. 
 
 It's not to say that one car is still superior to the other but if there was one thing that the MRS proved is paper performance is not what makes a car special. It is how it makes you feel when driving it.

Petrus

#16
Quote from: mr2garageswindon on April 21, 2023, 12:25Only issue I found driving SMT cars is reversing into a parking space on a slope.. bit more.. bit more.. Bang oops.
Same as semi auto trucks onto a loading bay on a slope.

I would call that user issue.

Just use two feet like you would with a foot clutch. The left one on the brake. You can drive ever so much smoother on the twisties too. Proper ralley style. I think Rob Slotemaker in his DAF Maraton Variomatic in the Monte Carlo put it under the attention of motoring journalist and there is some stunning footage (literally) of Colin Mcrae on youtube.
Again though, not the subject  ;)

SuperArt

I can say hand on heart that the level of money and time sunk into my cars is not proportional to the level of enjoyment I get out of owning and driving.

Not only does added power etc not make significant difference to performance (high 5s to 60mph is nothing these days) but I don't feel any happier than when the car was stock.
It's a good car from the factory, anything else we do is just a game of diminishing returns.
Best regards,
Arthur
Essex - "Always happy to meet up for a weekend drive"
Making demented squirrel noises since 2014
TTE "Turbo Dodo" - https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?msg=797148
TTE Turbo "Friday" - https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?topic=73711.0

Petrus

#18
Quote from: SuperArt on April 22, 2023, 13:52It's a good car from the factory, anything else we do is just a game of diminishing returns.

Well yes and no.

Deleting bits is largely for free and less MR2 returns more MR2  ;)
Same thing de-restricting intake and exhaust. Can be done at a shoestring for notable returns.
Another example is modest bracing.

The factory was very much limited by rules and regulations for homologation.
We have some more leeway in periodic inspections so we dó have space for improvement without shooting ourselves more in the foot elsewhere.

Little investmenst, larger returns. Just stay within the original design brief and don´t be greedy.

As observed earlier I would só like to compare with a TTE Turbo or 2ZZ swap.  Both are outside of the original design brief btw. Not imo; Tagashi Nakagawa said so.

Ardent

#19
Quote from: Petrus on April 22, 2023, 16:24Little investmenst, larger returns. Just stay within the original design brief and don´t be greedy.

Like that.
If only there was of a love child of Sabine and De Kikker. All the OEM (creature comfort) full fat mass and torque vs anorexic OEM.

I will not be tampering with Sabine.
But, I do wonder what a shredded TTE would be like in comparison.

Petrus

#20
Quote from: Ardent on April 22, 2023, 23:29Like that.
If only there was of a love child of Sabine and De Kikker. All the OEM (creature comfort) full fat mass and torque vs anorexic OEM.

Yes Ardent, if only.. I am not going there anymore nów but would have loved to fit a TRD supercharger with its mild overblow to the lightened car.

QuoteBut, I do wonder what a shredded TTE would be like in comparison.


You´re welcome to try rip the dotted center lines with mine and share your experience  about the difference with me.

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