Talk to me about tie rods and ends

[MrChris]

To continue the ongoing saga that is my 2...

I had 4 new tyres fitted today but it was not aligned because my tie rods/ends are too rusted and there's not enough thread (due to rust). God knows how the previous place that did my alignment did the fronts... I suspect they didn't.

So I need two new tie rods + ends. The ends seem easy enough to install but the inner tie road not so much... mainly because I've never done this job.

Anything I need to be aware of? Any good guides for the 2? I haven't found anything on the forum for inner tie rods.

Also open to recommendations on parts, Autodoc have Febi Bilstein bits coming to around £68 with gaiters on top. Anything else (brands) worth considering, or can I use cheaper parts e.g. Yaris parts?

Found this on eBay - worth a shot or better to go for something from a known brand?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265904513908?hash=item3de924e374:g:~0wAAOSwMkRevooJ&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4Aq1ozb21jB3pgCIpwnH5EkjB5hgqGzjqVHD1UkttrYEELOxKVzrAMqD3cVdLngf9gr0addB4XWQheZ3Wf6iwh3B%2FK8qwSRC1H1YQ05C5eDB%2BPbI2N7MfGyYf1bubfnmctfAgOBenwvGKjTrgAHJrtgf43AuGg0XpV7n3SKjdmPjpEbjQeQLVbUz9JcGu135ax1Eah15OkRoiuZNk7idkdnLe89y5aPMi4RD%2BxA2l0vGvwBQBjDuey3nPdiKQZ%2FBUeR%2BUPwfpVEa3rSVjpTYznt93XN%2FNLJhrvpfek5%2Fd8uZ%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6jemJWOYg

[MrChris]

Replying to myself here... but this WikiHow guide seems to make a lot of sense. Just need to know if there's anything specific for the 2.

https://www.wikihow.com/Replace-Tie-Rod-Ends

[Dev]

That guide seems straight forward.
 I have only removed the tie rod end but never replaced a tie rod on this car but have for a different car and it is was straight forward.

 The reason why I am posting is to advise you to only use OEM Toyota parts as they are of the highest quality that you cant get good aftermarket replacements that are equivalent in quality. Some of these parts have to be greased periodically and just dont have the tight tolerance and quality control as the OEM. I have seen a local member show me a set of Moog tie rods ends and I was not impressed and advised him to find a used set instead.
 What I generally would do is buy a used set from salvage to save money. The reason why Toyotas are reliable is primarily because of the attention to detail for joints and the engineering behind it.

[MrChris]

That guide seems straight forward.
 I have only removed the tie rod end but never replaced a tie rod on this car but have for a different car and it is was straight forward.

 The reason why I am posting is to advise you to only use OEM Toyota parts as they are of the highest quality that you cant get good aftermarket replacements that are equivalent in quality. Some of these parts have to be greased periodically and just dont have the tight tolerance and quality control as the OEM. I have seen a local member show me a set of Moog tie rods ends and I was not impressed and advised him to find a used set instead.
 What I generally would do is buy a used set from salvage to save money. The reason why Toyotas are reliable is primarily because of the attention to detail for joints and the engineering behind it.

Interesting... would it make sense to keep my existing tie rod ends? I think the ball joints themselves are fine so I could just clean up the threads and replace the tie rods only so I have good threads again?

[Dev]

Interesting... would it make sense to keep my existing tie rod ends? I think the ball joints themselves are fine so I could just clean up the threads and replace the tie rods only so I have good threads again?

It depends on the condition of the threads. If it's just to clean up some surface rust I think it would be fine but if you have to cut threads probably not worth it. 
 I have seen people refresh tie rods and ball joints when they don't need to be and its usually because they think they are a time based item that are problematic for other makes due to poor engineering but not for Toyotas where the joints can last two or three lifetimes as long as the boots are intact. There are many Toyota trucks that have traveled over a half a million miles on the same joints but it's usually the bushings that give out first as they are the wearable items.
 

   

[Joesson]

@MrChris
I have replaced tie rod ends on another car and can vouch that aftermarket products are not always of the best.
In one case the rubber boot was short lived and another the taper was incorrect.
I also found that the OE part was very competitively priced but the dealer was not open when the part was wanted. That was on a Ford.  it was a long time ago, when you had to travel to buy parts!
The guide seems comprehensive and refers to counting the turns to when removing the end so as to replace it in much the same place.
But, the guide also mentions that there can be a difference  in length of replacement and so I would be inclined to measure what you have before you start.
PS
More recently the front OE front wishbone ball joints  on my 2 were perfect but I could not get them off without damaging the boot so had to be replaced.

[Dev]

 The irony with OEM rear end links are they are good quality and can last but if they have to come off to install a sway bar or strut the hex nut gets rusted easily and rounds out which you will have to cut off and ruin a good part. Sometimes Toyota gets it wrong with the details as they could have added a simple nut instead of a hex.   



 

[Joesson]

The irony with OEM rear end links are they are good quality and can last but if they have to come off to install a sway bar or strut the hex nut gets rusted easily and rounds out which you will have to cut off and ruin a good part. Sometimes Toyota gets it wrong with the details as they could have added a simple nut instead of a hex.   



I agree, back and front drop/ end links ball joints were fine, as Dev mentions it is the nuts rust away.
But, in fairness to Mr T they did last 20 years.

[Dev]

Before owning a Honda there was a saying I read that said Honda builds engines, Toyota builds cars.
 After owning a Honda since new and working on it for its whole life before it was sold I understood it better. This is not to say Honda is a bad make but on the whole with suspension parts and other things not engine related Toyota does it better. The quality of parts do play a roll which I think Honda uses good parts but I think it's the engineering that is better with Toyota when it comes to reliability to make those parts last a long time. 

[MrChris]

So does anyone have any thoughts on the stuff from Autodoc e.g. Febi Bilstein or others? I'll speak to Toyota though my recent experience with their parts departments was not good at all.

[Carolyn]

See what Paul at TCB can do?  Best to phone.

[Bossworld]

It's a nice easy job on the MR2 because you don't have an engine in the way. Was able to salvage the inner tie rod on one side but had to replace the passenger side. I ended up using an adjustable spanner on mine rather than having to buy a tie rod removal kit.

Several years back now but I think it was just a case of having the front end up in the air and turning the steering wheel to give more access to the side I had to remove the inner for.

Bear in mind that different brands of tie rod ends are different lengths. Bit more detail in my readers ride thread around this post https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?msg=784987

Mapco were nice and cheap (circa £8) and of a similar length to what was already fitted to my car (presumably still the factory originals). But on one side, the securing clip on top of the rubber boot slipped within a year so had to replace that one.

[MrChris]

It's a nice easy job on the MR2 because you don't have an engine in the way. Was able to salvage the inner tie rod on one side but had to replace the passenger side. I ended up using an adjustable spanner on mine rather than having to buy a tie rod removal kit.

Several years back now but I think it was just a case of having the front end up in the air and turning the steering wheel to give more access to the side I had to remove the inner for.

Bear in mind that different brands of tie rod ends are different lengths. Bit more detail in my readers ride thread around this post https://www.mr2roc.org/index.php?msg=784987

Mapco were nice and cheap (circa £8) and of a similar length to what was already fitted to my car (presumably still the factory originals). But on one side, the securing clip on top of the rubber boot slipped within a year so had to replace that one.

Thanks for this. What sort of sized wrench is needed for the inner tie rod? Presumably it's easy to access it without need for a special tool.

[Bossworld]

Thanks for this. What sort of sized wrench is needed for the inner tie rod? Presumably it's easy to access it without need for a special tool.

I just used an adjustable spanner, I had nothing else large enough in the toolbox.  I broke it free via a tap on the end of the spanner, and then just judged the tightness doing it back up, without wanting to damage a (then) 14 year old steering rack.

It would appear Toyota give it as 83nm, or 62nm 'for use with SST' - from what I can see of the repair manual, the difference in torque is due to use of a crow's foot attachment on the torque wrench - I obviously didn't have one. Usual caveats apply but the car is still going strong 5 years after that post I linked to. This is the one I fitted - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006DHXRO0/ref=pe_3187911_189395841_TE_dp_1

For what it's worth - the SST mentioned is just an adjustable wrench that can also act as a crow's foot - https://toyota.service-solutions.com/en-US/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?Sku=09922-10010-01

I've never done inner tie rods on another car but I think the usual reason for the special inner rod kits is because you've got the engine in the way.

[bobbe]

I was in my local Toyota dealer today picking up some parts, and I asked about tie rod ends as I'll need two at some point, and probably also some inners as well

They would charge £70.72+vat for each end. Ouch

TCB have non-OEM parts at £9.70+vat - I'm not saying that the difference in quality can't be worth paying for OEM, but really, is it?

An alternative is amayama offering two OEM ends for a touch under £60 delivered to the UK, if you can wait a month for it

[MrChris]

I was in my local Toyota dealer today picking up some parts, and I asked about tie rod ends as I'll need two at some point, and probably also some inners as well

They would charge £70.72+vat for each end. Ouch

TCB have non-OEM parts at £9.70+vat - I'm not saying that the difference in quality can't be worth paying for OEM, but really, is it?

An alternative is amayama offering two OEM ends for a touch under £60 delivered to the UK, if you can wait a month for it

Yeah this was ultimately my thinking. Plus my local Toyota parts were rude/useless. So I went with Autodoc in the end: Febi Bilstein rods, TRW ends, 2 gaiters for around £60 delivered. Will probably keep the existing track rod ends in case the new ones blow up.

[MrChris]

It's a nice easy job on the MR2 because you don't have an engine in the way. Was able to salvage the inner tie rod on one side but had to replace the passenger side. I ended up using an adjustable spanner on mine rather than having to buy a tie rod removal kit.

Well.. no idea how you managed to do it with an adjustable spanner. Just cannot get mine up in the space available (tried on driver's side) with space left to get leverage on it.

I noticed there is a hole in the tie rod near the threads but couldn't work out what it was for..

Going to order one of these to make the job easier:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/CNWOOAIVE-Inner-Removal-Profile-Installation/dp/B096XVF45T

[mr2garageswindon]

If you haven't already... remove the spare wheel carrier and access from the top for the nearside one.
Offside is harder due to ABS above it.
Turn the steering to full lock out on the one you are doing, make easier.
That tool should be fine, I have a different one with a splined roller that grips the inner joint.

[MrChris]

If you haven't already... remove the spare wheel carrier and access from the top for the nearside one.
Offside is harder due to ABS above it.
Turn the steering to full lock out on the one you are doing, make easier.
That tool should be fine, I have a different one with a splined roller that grips the inner joint.

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't moved the wheel carrier. My new parts haven't arrived yet so I'll have another go when they do. I attempted to remove in the event I needed to order a tool etc... even though I may not 100% need it I'm sure it'll still be useful.

[Bossworld]

Well.. no idea how you managed to do it with an adjustable spanner. Just cannot get mine up in the space available (tried on driver's side) with space left to get leverage on it.

I noticed there is a hole in the tie rod near the threads but couldn't work out what it was for..

Going to order one of these to make the job easier:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/CNWOOAIVE-Inner-Removal-Profile-Installation/dp/B096XVF45T

Was just the cheap blue and silver one you see in the picture here (albeit attached to a TRE in the pic). I assumed you'd cleared a path from above and got the wheel on full lock? I was fairly accustomed to taking half the frunk area out (I redid power steering pipes, had to make new hard brake lines etc. so a well trodden path).

That SST I linked to further up is the one from the Toyota MR2 repair manual for removal/replacement of tie rods and you'll see it's nothing particularly fancy though quite thin in width, though in answer to your question in your opening post, it's plausible Toyota's reassembly instructions for the rack are with the entire rack off the car (which would be overkill in this situation).

If the offside is radically different then I apologise for getting your hopes up, as above I only changed the nearside inner rod but you've mentioned needing to do both.

[bobbe]

Yeah this was ultimately my thinking. Plus my local Toyota parts were rude/useless. So I went with Autodoc in the end: Febi Bilstein rods, TRW ends, 2 gaiters for around £60 delivered. Will probably keep the existing track rod ends in case the new ones blow up.

I suspect I'm going to go with Febi Bilstein inners and some new gaiters from Autodoc and Toyota ends from Amayama

It also needs the rear subframe replacing so I'll match up alignment as best I can and then get a full setup done afterwards

[MrChris]

Completed install of tie rods, ends and gaiters. The tool I mentioned works wonders and well worth the £12, even if access is relatively straightforward with the front bin taken out.