New Owner......engine issues.....what next?

[Daytona]

Would love to have had my first post in New Member's but for the first time in 30+ years of bikes and cars I have purchased a car with what appears a terminal issue.

2000 plate MR2 MK3 circa 60K on the clock, no corrosion, drives well. Purchased privately.

Drove home, tapping noise at constant revs on motorway circa 2000-3000rpm thought heatshield or pulley etc. Above or below the tapping goes away. Driven car 30miles since getting her home, if revs held constant on hill etc at circa 2000rpm a knocking/tapping.

Had car a matter of days now, had a full service, plugs, filters, fully synth oil thinking the issue would be picked up.....it was. Oil in car for 1K, from service docs; clean except for the 'grit' pieces of what I now presume are the precat in the oil! Seem grey and white-ish in colour.

SO...presume pre-cats have disintegrated or are doing so and being injested by the engine, no smoke from car, minimal/no apparent oil usage; car has decent performance and pick-up idle etc...just the diesel-ish knock when revved at idle at 2-3000rpm from the drivers side of the engine in the upper block area. Did notice Lamda was replaced 400miles ago after fault warning.

Options

Cry and regret buying such a car, criminal that this problem was not sorted by Toyota for all Owner's.

1) Sell car as Spares and Repair has MOT until mid next year for £1400? (not sure of amount to ask) few minor dinks but has a new mohair soft top, decent alloys etc it's a good example aesthetically.

2) Get a 2005/6 engine for circa £600 and get it fitted (cost to fit?); 2 month warranty?

3) Get an earlier engine for circa £300 and get it fitted? 2 month warranty

4) Laugh, get the precats removed/new manifold. new oil and filter and just drive it until the thing expires. 1000miles a year max usage would have been the idea.

What should I do, for minimal ££ outlay for a reliable car? or just cut losses and out it? or a different opinion or option on repair etc.

[Gaz mr-s]

I haven't personally done it, but the pre-cats can be inspected via the O2 sensor holes.

[Daytona]

I haven't personally done it, but the pre-cats can be inspected via the O2 sensor holes.

Yes was thinking of taking a look, but I already know from what I have felt and seen in the oil that was dropped that the cat has disintegrated/is breaking down.....so I am taking it that the knock/tap is as a result of this and possible damage to bores, bearings etc. Mechanic said what's the point of removing head to have a look etc more money when the cats are on balance of probability goosed....pieces in oil, lamda issues and now a tap/knock at 2000rpm. So I guess I am starting from the premis my car has precat failure.....and cost effective recification, with best chance of no more such issues.

[Joesson]

Yes was thinking of taking a look, but I already know from what I have felt and seen in the oil that was dropped that the cat has disintegrated/is breaking down.....so I am taking it that the knock/tap is as a result of this and possible damage to bores, bearings etc. Mechanic said what's the point of removing head to have a look etc more money when the cats are on balance of probability goosed....pieces in oil, lamda issues and now a tap/knock at 2000rpm. So I guess I am starting from the premis my car has precat failure.....and cost effective recification, with best chance of no more such issues.

Hello and welcome and sorry to see something  that has not been written on here for some time.
Your description of the particles is what I remember from when I de catted my car more than ten years ago.
To check that is the problem it is not necessary to remove the cylinder head but only to remove the O2 sensors, poking through the exhaust manifold.
The precats will appear as a regular honeycomb, or not!

What to do if that is the case will likely now follow with suggestions from other Members.

Your #4 suggestion would be at minimum cost and on the  basis that  it's broken anyway you would then either fall in or out of love with the cars other attributes.
My car has run fine for 10+ years ( not many miles) with a decatted  OE manifold ,

[Carolyn]

So sorry to hear of the problem with your car.

You obviously been exposed to the popular pre-cat story (which is often wide of the mark!)

Rather than assume the pre-cats are at fault (a much overrated problem), may I suggest removing the O2 sensors (as others have suggested) from the manifold and inspecting the pre-cat matrix.  If it has eroded it will be clear to see.  If your top end was eating pre-cat matrix I'd expect the engine to blowing smoke and going though oil at a decent clip. So that's your first investigation.

Forget about taking the head off with the engine in the car.   I did it once- never again!!

If the matrix looks intact:

What you have does sound like rod end knocking, probably on #1 cylinder, as that's the first one to go when the oil pick-up sucks air.  The previous owner could have got very enthusiastic round a long right-hand bend while the oil level was low. A spun rod bearing or two is the result. That will result in white metal from the bearing shells in your sump oil., which could be what you are seeing.

Before doing an engine swap (a used engine will always be a bit of a gamble) which will cost at least £1200 all in, (with new clutch and other bits that are better changed when the engine is out)  you might want to drop the sump (tedious as they are pretty much glued on but I've done it a few times) and inspect the rod bearings.  If it's one or two spun bearings, there's an even chance you can clean the white metal off the crank with fine wet & dry, and put new shells in.

Personally I would always do a mild rebuild on any engine I was putting in, 'cos collecting on a two month warranty on just the engine without being covered for the work, ain't a great proposition.

Most 2005/2006 engines still have inadequate oil control holes in the pistons.  Only the very last few 2006 cars had properly modified pistons, so even a 2006 engine can be an oil burner if it hasn't has regular oil changes throughout its life.

If you get an engine from J-Spec it will probably be a good one, but you can't eliminate all risk.

I doubt you'd get more than £600 for a car with a bead engine, I'm afraid.

[Daytona]

Just been out to get some milk and investigate while driving....noise is a ticking/loud clicking (not banging) which I can keep constantly happening by keeping the throttle with hardly any input again at circa 3000rpm...trimming throttle input keeps it happening so round long corners it makes the noise but stops as the accelerator is depressed harder or releases. Performance is fine seems louder when engine hotter....at idle blipping the throttle quickly and releasing there is a momentary clack or chirp...

Gunmed up/vvt-i issue?

Need a Toyota specialist I guess to have a look/listen.

[Ardent]

Or another owner in your area.

This engine appears in multiple vehicles.
Nothing particularly special about it.

A competent mechanic is all you need.

[Call the midlife!]

Have you checked the flexis for holes? Sometimes a small hole in the flexi can make a rattling sound until the revs and pressure build up.

[Iain]

Does it make the noise at idle? Dont worry about o2 sensor being replaced, thats common. Precat faliure isnt in my experience.

[Carolyn]

Could even be a worn out chain tensioner, going by your latest description of symptoms.  It's oil pressure operated and the oil pressure drops (especially at low RPM) as the engine warms up.

Your profile tells me you're in the South East. I'm in Northants.  I'd be happy to have a look at it, if you can get it here?

It's almost impossible to diagnose these things at distance.

We do have a good professional member @mr2garageswindon who might be your best bet for someone who knows his way round the 1ZZ engine.  You might contact him.?

[Alex Knight]

Everything is pure speculation until you post a video documenting the noise.

Doing so will save everyone a lot of time guessing, and give a much more accurate internet diagnosis.

[Joesson]

@Daytona
Carolyn's offer/ suggestion.

[Daytona]

Could even be a worn out chain tensioner, going by your latest description of symptoms.  It's oil pressure operated and the oil pressure drops (especially at low RPM) as the engine warms up.

Your profile tells me you're in the South East. I'm in Northants.  I'd be happy to have a look at it, if you can get it here?

It's almost impossible to diagnose these things at distance.

We do have a good professional member @mr2garageswindon who might be your best bet for someone who knows his way round the 1ZZ engine.  You might contact him.?

Thank you and other's for help and advice, I am having another look today, will get a video of the noise if I can (it's loud enough) and post. Appreciate the help

[Daytona]

Video of my engine....end of vid when revved gives a good idea of clattering.

Seems to come from top of the engine middle of the block, but could be right hand side too....had another mechanic listen to it, said 'top end'; will go to a chap nearby advertised as Toyota specialist.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJCg6IqWRMA

[Daytona]

Found these videos that seem to match my issue the plastic intake manifold which is the same as fitted to the mr2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuE1G_MNVSk


http://gorup-sinkovec.net/diy/rattling-noise-in-toyota-corolla-intake-manifold-solved/

[Smithy]

Hi all. I've started to experience the same issue Daytona reports. Under load in any gear my car sounds like a tractor. Once I stake my foot off and cruise at a constant speed/ reve it goes. I will try and get a video tomorrow.

[mr2garageswindon]

I have done that manifold fix on a 2003 corolla 1.4.. Nice and easy.. on a corolla.
I can't see there being enough room to get a drill in the space to do it.
While it is possible to remove an intake manifold in situ I would very much advise against it as it is over a 7 hour job and much hassle.
It may be possible from underneath with a small side drill but my MR2 is buried at the back of the workshop at the mo so can't check for you. 

[Alex Knight]

Here's a very useful video:

[Ardent]

Well done that man.

[Carolyn]

I've removed the inlet manifold with the engine in the car.  Fiddly job, but very do-able, I found. Little nimble fingers help.

There's a couple of bolts low down on one end that have to be accessed from under the car. 

I have a couple of spares if anyone wants one for the cost of P&P

[Joesson]

Here's a very useful video:

Thank you Alex, that's one job I do hope that never needs doing on my car!

[Daytona]

Update: I have yet to have a definitive diagnosis on the engine, but any type of knocking/tapping is not a good sign especially in the 1ZZ from reading multiple posts etc.

I am not going to start taking off the cam cover/lifting the head, oil pan etc as I have no room (other cars!) to undertake a protracted job nor pay for an investigation/rebuild....the Car is in very good condition inside and out wheels etc; with a new 12 month old mohair roof and little if any corrosion to chassis/floor pan etc and a long MoT...just paid to PDR the whole car and she has come up looking mint.

So...having got some quotes from completely bonkers £££'s (£4K+) to a very realisitic circa £1K; I am getting an engine swop next week with a 2006/36K mile engine and new clutch, decat/manifold, hopefully I can then relax and enjoy the car when she comes back out again next Spring.....not been a pleasant start to ownership but hopefully upwards from here!

[shnazzle]

Not a pleasant way to start at all but nonetheless I'm very pleased you're sticking with it with an engine swap (which is rather easily done).

Look forward to you have many trouble-free motoring miles

[Daytona]

Picked up the car last night and drove the 270 odd miles back home in the Monsoon like conditions. The 2006, 36K mile engine feels good far better than the POS that I had purchased in the car, better pick up, performance, less engine noise etc. Have learnt a lesson from this purchase.

Very happy (despite shelling out), so much so this morning I treated myself/the car to the last pair of OE Toyota Mats from eBay.....wash later and in the garage until March/April next year.