Hi to All
Well I finally got my hands on the Silver 53 plate MR2 tonight and have been in it as much as I can. Wet or at best patchy roads all over mean that I have not really had the opportunity to really get it going yet.
Cornering wise, so far I have been trying the following technique:
Brake before turn in and just feather brakes off as turn in starts so as not to make the nose go light and incur understeer. Get car running up toward the apex and start squeezing gas on. This makes the back start to push wide and it is then a matter of letting steering lock unwind as the apex is passed and just letting the car come back to straight line. It seems to take on a fair bit of slip angle, but it also seems easy to balance it front rear so that cornering is achieved with almost no steering. Does this sound about right for these cars? I will do a handling day soon as I can. I need somewhere I can push this technique until the back unsticks to see what happens.
One question on the ride quality. The car seems well planted and stable at speed, but coming down a stretch of concrete dual carriageway at around 80 earlier on, the front of the car seemed to be rythmically bobbing. Speeding up or slowing down seemed to cure it. Is this normal behaviour caused by there being no engine mass up front?
So far I am loving this car.
Chris
glad to hear you're enjoying it! s:D :D s:D
I remember reading somewhere that the '2 does suffer from quite an unstable patch aerodynamically at higher speeds, and that it settles down once you accelerate through it, but I thought it was higher than 80, more like 105-115?
'course, i could quite possibly be completely wrong. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Hi to All
One question on the ride quality. The car seems well planted and stable at speed, but coming down a stretch of concrete dual carriageway at around 80 earlier on, the front of the car seemed to be rythmically bobbing. Speeding up or slowing down seemed to cure it. Is this normal behaviour caused by there being no engine mass up front?
Chris
Mine does that - the bobbing on concrete sections. It is the expansion gaps.
Very slippy roads around here, I managed to do a 180 turn virtually in the cars length with a timely prod of the accelerator (empty and greasy tesco car park) - lots of fun to be had!
BTW - you seem very concerned about your cornering technique. What car are you used to?
If you are nervous, my advice is wait for it to dry and find some big empty roundabouts where you can slowly build up speed and experiment. It won't bite unless you really provoke it or do something abruptly.
Quote from: "jamesr1"glad to hear you're enjoying it! s:D :D s:D
I remember reading somewhere that the '2 does suffer from quite an unstable patch aerodynamically at higher speeds, and that it settles down once you accelerate through it, but I thought it was higher than 80, more like 105-115?
'course, i could quite possibly be completely wrong. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Hi
The bobbing seems to be road surface related and occurs when the slabs forming the concrete surface ore not level. The suspension seems to oscillate at one particular frequency and it would seem that at one particular speed, this is exacerbated to resonance. Only happened on about half a mile of road.
Chris
ahh, i get you now! not sure what to suggest as i'm not the most mechanically minded guy in the village...!
you could always try adding a little extra weight to the front, small bag of sand in with the spare for example, see if this makes a difference, I know it helps balance the car better with regards to cornering, but i'm not sure if it would be significant enough in this instance though.
Quote from: "jamesr1"you could always try adding a little extra weight to the front, small bag of sand in with the spare for example, see if this makes a difference, I know it helps balance the car better with regards to cornering, but i'm not sure if it would be significant enough in this instance though.
ChrisGB: I've had great success by shifting weight into the front, and you don't need much to notice a difference. Have a root in the bin behind the driver's seat and there should be a few heavy trinkets you can lob in the front for starters.
Know what you mean about the concrete section - the bit they're replacing on the M6 feels very uncertain at a particular speed. Just slow down a tad (or speed up!!)
In any case, the talkback that you get from the car does take some getting used to, but after a while you'll be glad of it - its a proper driving experience s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Congrats on your new car - good choice s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Cornering sounds about right, feathering the brakes will keep weight moving forward and increase front grip.
The diff is great fun. On country roads it reminds me I'm not turning sharply enough and makes the car turn in sharper resulting in me winding off lock as I apply more power. Always makes me smile that.
It also makes the car feel like the back is going to break away even though it isn't. In fact, you really have to provoke the car in the dry to get it to slide.
As already said, move what you can to front. The jack should go in the front as a minimum.
Quote from: "mrsmr2"Cornering sounds about right, feathering the brakes will keep weight moving forward and increase front grip.
The diff is great fun. On country roads it reminds me I'm not turning sharply enough and makes the car turn in sharper resulting in me winding off lock as I apply more power. Always makes me smile that.
It also makes the car feel like the back is going to break away even though it isn't. In fact, you really have to provoke the car in the dry to get it to slide.
As already said, move what you can to front. The jack should go in the front as a minimum.
Hi
Been practicing on dry roads today and am quite amazed at just how hard you can push these cars without it showing any signs of getting out of shape. I know what you mean about the feelig the back is going round, but that applies to most RWD cars to some extent. It is just that with the engine in the back, the feeling was not "natural" until I got used to it. As with many good RWD cars, the best way to use this is keep the throttle open and use the weight transfer to ones advantage.
Best stunt so far, a smallish B road with a left / right / left / right onto a straight. Power on hard all the way through with the light front end just going where it was pointed. Huge exit speed onto the straight. Bliss.
Chris
im very pleased that you are gettin maximum enjoyment from the car.
now i dont want to sound like your parents (and i have no knowledge of your standard of driving, but......
BE CAREFUL.....
i would hate to see you post that it had gone pete tong and your 2 is now a different shape to when you bought it.
it is a beast of a car though, and i cant stop smiling every time i get in it.
3 months and 4500 miles under my belt. its joy joy joy all the way. even my mam likes the roof down !!!!
just a shame i cant get my grandad in it, or should i say he could get in but would have to stay there
happy motorin s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "enid_b"I'm very pleased that you are gettin maximum enjoyment from the car.
now i dont want to sound like your parents (and i have no knowledge of your standard of driving, but......
BE CAREFUL.....
i would hate to see you post that it had gone pete tong and your 2 is now a different shape to when you bought it.
it is a beast of a car though, and i cant stop smiling every time i get in it.
3 months and 4500 miles under my belt. its joy joy joy all the way. even my mam likes the roof down !!!!
just a shame i cant get my grandad in it, or should i say he could get in but would have to stay there
happy motorin s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Hi
It is to find just where the limits are and what happens just over them that I need to book the handling course. I have had the back get twitchy on a dry roundabout earlier today. The car sort of let go a bit at the back, so I just let the wheel slip a bit of lock off and eased a little bit of power off. More of a little shimmy than a slide. Did not even deviate from the intended line, but more exciting than I wanted it to be. The long travel throttle helps here for sure. It is in the wet that I am being extra careful. Will probably do a skid pan day in it as well.
Top down motoring is nice, but I need to develop a collection of baseball caps for all weathers. Currently have winter weight one (nice on 105 mile stints yesterday evening) but need one to stop me bonce burning on hotter days.
Every mile under the wheels makes me grin even more s:D :D s:D
Chris
PS moved the toolkit to the spare wheel bay. Seems to make a very small difference, but it is dry today anyway. I may well remove the spare and fit some dense ballast at the front in its place and a can of tyre repair gel. This will free up some space.
Sounds like we have a new enthusiast in our midst.
Good luck and be careful whilst you learn the car. By the way, somebody above used a term I'm unfamiliar with, to whit:
Quotei would hate to see you post that it had gone pete tong
This rhyming slang, yes? Meaning "wrong," I gather. Anybody have the etymology?
Pete Tong was a Radio 1 DJ many moons ago (actually, he might still be.. I'm not sure - I don't listen to dance music as a rule)..
But I'm not entirely sure why it came to mean "wrong".
*cracks topic whip* s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "southerneditor"Sounds like we have a new enthusiast in our midst.
Good luck and be careful whilst you learn the car. By the way, somebody above used a term I'm unfamiliar with, to whit:
Quotei would hate to see you post that it had gone pete tong
This rhyming slang, yes? Meaning "wrong," I gather. Anybody have the etymology?
And if it goes too Pete Tong you are cattle trucked.
Am learning it bit by bit on familiar roads, but just got back from a thrash down some of Essex finest B roads to see how we would cope with the unexpected. I think I have now found the maximum rate of turn, which is quicker than anything I have driven thus far by a long way.
Getting into a corner too fast and braking during turn in (done intentionally just to see what happens, I would not drive it like this into corners) seems to get the back feeling really threatening but makes turn in absolutely instant and it is still accurate. Obviously over doing it will end in disaster, but I continue to be amazed at what the car will do. This means that unless you are being a complete plum regarding entry speed, the thing should be pretty safe.
I reckon that in the dry, you would be pushed to lose the back end under moderate to full power in most reasonable conditions. More threat comes from under planning the corners if I understand the cars dynamics correctly. The thing I am now trying to get my head around is high speed curves. The car seems to be really planted in the faster corners, but I am having trouble reading how much more grip I have to play with. The car was jsut starting to pull a little against the steering wheel in one 60mph corner earlier and I guess this is where it is telling me not to extract the urine. Understeer was just starting to counter the throttle steered line. I need to get that handling course in ASAP.
What is most scary about it is the speed you can carry out of corners. In a straight line, it is not as quick as my other cars, but down the lanes, the speed exiting the corners is much higher than either of them can manage, so I end up getting to the next corner more quickly. This means that I have to concentrate while driving it, and this is why I bought the car. Job done then.
One confirmed enthusiast created in two days. Got to work for 5 days from tomorrow, but will do my best to sneak in more drives in the evenings this week.
Chris
The thing to remember is that if the back starts getting jiggy you need to be quick - so if your pusing hard, have your wits about you and be ready to take action. Also if you power through higher speed bends without getting the car turned in you can get understeer - just need to give the steering a quick, almost imperceptible, scandinavian flick and or maybe a little lift of the throttle to get the front biting in. You can also quell a bit of the understeer by dropping the front tyre pressures by a PSI. Biggest difference that can be made to the amount of feedback you get on grip is by changing tyres - don't know what you're running but RE040s aren't especially communicative - Toyo Proxes T1R are better. Yoko Advan Neovas are awesome if you've got 15" / 16" front rear wheel sizes '03 onwards s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "RUSTY"Toyo Proxes T1R are better
Agreed (in that changing pressures makes a bigger difference), the T1-Rs go from being awful (on standard pressures) to good (by adding 2 psi).
Can't wait to kill my T1-Rs.
How are the sidewalls on the Neovas? Soft like the T1-Rs or firmer like the RE040s?
Quote from: "RUSTY"The thing to remember is that if the back starts getting jiggy you need to be quick - so if your pusing hard, have your wits about you and be ready to take action. Also if you power through higher speed bends without getting the car turned in you can get understeer - just need to give the steering a quick, almost imperceptible, scandinavian flick and or maybe a little lift of the throttle to get the front biting in. You can also quell a bit of the understeer by dropping the front tyre pressures by a PSI. Biggest difference that can be made to the amount of feedback you get on grip is by changing tyres - don't know what you're running but RE040s aren't especially communicative - Toyo Proxes T1R are better. Yoko Advan Neovas are awesome if you've got 15" / 16" front rear wheel sizes '03 onwards s:) :) s:)
Hi Rusty
I dont generally drive to the limits on the road, but have pushed it a bit where appropriate to guage the behaviour. Certainly, when doing these little tests, I have my wits about me as I know how bad it can go and it feels like it could go bad very quickly.
The "Sacnadanavian flick" is similar to what I found works well. What I tried is just tugging the wheel a small amount quickly to nudge it back onto line. Seems to work really well and does not upset the car.
I like the direct way it responds at the moment. It is on the Bridgestone RE040 on 15/16 inch 03 car. They are coming up for replacement soon. How are the Yokos in the wet and how do they comapre to the OE Yokos?
Today saw a spare 10 mins so I fixed the soft top "ears" (did wonder why there were bits sticking up at the corners when the top was down). Just having a drink then off out for some more "practice".
Chris
The stock Yokos are meant to be very good in the dry and poor in the wet. They seem to hold up to track days well - Ninjinski's were in better condition after 2 track days than my T1-Rs were after one.
They probably hold up a bit better than the RE040s as well.
I'm interested in the Neovas as well but my next tyre must have a firm sidewall so keen to hear about them as well.
The Neovas are as stiff as the OE Bridgestones with the added advantage of excellent and predictable grip in wet and dry. When you're pushing on a bit, the tyres break away in a very linear fashion and provide a large amount of feedback. It has the effect of "slowing everything down" because you know exactly what is going on. Not as twitchy as the OE's.
Regarding the T1s, these have softer sidewalls than stock and when I went to a track day at Elvington some of the guys had sidewall melting issues even after increasing the pressures. Not sure if th newer T1Rs are any stiffer.
Advan Neovas cost me about £400 for a set of 4 from Lotus Elise Parts - but then you still have to pay to have them fitted.
Hmmm, I ran T1-R's at Anglesey recently on 34 / 28 pressures (nitrogen filled) and I thought the sidewalls were fine - they were brand spanking new too, and the wear on them considering the large tread blocks was surprisingly good I thought.
Quote from: "Slacey"Hmmm, I ran T1-R's at Anglesey recently on 34 / 28 pressures (nitrogen filled) and I thought the sidewalls were fine - they were brand spanking new too, and the wear on them considering the large tread blocks was surprisingly good I thought.
My T1-R's outside edges looked worse after Elvington in September and 6k miles than my RE040s did after two track days and 16k miles. They look even worse now after Brunters. I was running at 6-8 psi over standard.
I wonder if running lowered suspension helps (I'm assuming you're lowered).
Positive points are that running 2psi over standard on the road has made the car feel more like it used to e.g. direct steering with none of slop but at the expense of increased understeer at the front. I can't remember if the RE040s understeered as much but I doubt it.
I also get the light feeling at the front occasionally which is diconcerting. Not sure if that is due to me trashing the tread but it has been commented on before for T1-Rs.
Roll on the Neovas.
Hi
I am running 15/16 inch stock rims. Do they do Neovas in either the correct or near enough sizes? I like the stiffness and immediacy of the RE040s, but not the wet driving properties. Just got in from driving home in the wet and found them to feel realy vague on wet surfaces. Leaned on them a bit and they seemed OK if comletely lacking in feel, but not confident enough to push harder. The Neovas sound ideal.
Chris
they only do Neovas in 195/50/15 and 225/45/16
so you have to have the wheels you do forthem to fit.
well worth it IMHO they are the best tyres I've ever had
Hi
Thanks for the info. In a little more detail, how do the Neovas compare to the Bridgestone RE040 in terms of respnse and feedback? I am guessing they are a hard sidewall tyre like the old 008s?
And where can I get a good deal on them?
Chris
Quote from: "RUSTY"The Neovas are as stiff as the OE Bridgestones with the added advantage of excellent and predictable grip in wet and dry. When you're pushing on a bit, the tyres break away in a very linear fashion and provide a large amount of feedback. It has the effect of "slowing everything down" because you know exactly what is going on. Not as twitchy as the OE's.
Regarding the T1s, these have softer sidewalls than stock and when I went to a track day at Elvington some of the guys had sidewall melting issues even after increasing the pressures. Not sure if th newer T1Rs are any stiffer.
Advan Neovas cost me about £400 for a set of 4 from Lotus Elise Parts - but then you still have to pay to have them fitted.
Chris, not being funny but what else do you want to know! It's all above s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "RUSTY"Quote from: "RUSTY"The Neovas are as stiff as the OE Bridgestones with the added advantage of excellent and predictable grip in wet and dry. When you're pushing on a bit, the tyres break away in a very linear fashion and provide a large amount of feedback. It has the effect of "slowing everything down" because you know exactly what is going on. Not as twitchy as the OE's.
Regarding the T1s, these have softer sidewalls than stock and when I went to a track day at Elvington some of the guys had sidewall melting issues even after increasing the pressures. Not sure if th newer T1Rs are any stiffer.
Advan Neovas cost me about £400 for a set of 4 from Lotus Elise Parts - but then you still have to pay to have them fitted.
Chris, not being funny but what else do you want to know! It's all above s:) :) s:)
Sorry, brain fade!
Chris
Hey, no worries s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Chris"BTW - you seem very concerned about your cornering technique. What car are you used to?
If you are nervous, my advice is wait for it to dry and find some big empty roundabouts where you can slowly build up speed and experiment. It won't bite unless you really provoke it or do something abruptly.
Hi Chris
I suspect part of my paranoia stems from occasionally driving an old MkII turbo that was a bit lairy and a friends UK spec MkII that was really unstable in lift off oversteer terms. This is the first mid engined car I have owned. Previously had the ususal boring FWD stuff and a coule of quick RWD cars, currently a modified V6 Omega that is pretty easy to drift and previously a 24V senator that was oversteer mayhem. Both have the weight up front, so were easier to unstick at the back.
I have now covered around 400 miles and have sussed a few things out. First up, I was being what I thought was delicate with the car but could not get it to feel settled in corners, particularly the transition from turn in to fully settled cornering. Where I suspect I was going wrong was that I was being a little too forceful with the steering wheel and not forceful enough to load the rear with the throttle. I have started trusting it now and find I can use throttle and steering (now very lightly gripped and communicating wonderfully the state of the front tyres grip levels) to put the weight anywhere I want it. Corner speeds are up some more and exit speeds better still. Also sussed braking while steering. Apply the brakes slowly enough and the weight just loads up the fronts and moves to the outside of the corner without the worrying pitching at the back I experienced when trying it before. From there, more pedal pressure just wipes speed off with no drama. More stable than the Omega or the Fabia under these conditions.
I still dont rush it in the wet. The 040s are completely numb when the road is wet. I am not too keen to get it sideways. With the front engined RWD stuff I have owned before, a bit of opposite lock sorted it out easily. I am being cautious because of where the engine is. I get the feeling the rate of rotation is going to be very high once the back lets go.
Generally, after a week of driving it when I can, I am seriously getting to grips with the handling and balance. The car is exceeding my expectations by some way, being really addictive and totally involving to drive to a greater degree than I was expecting. Thursday evening was when the penny dropped.
Gently with the steering and work the throttle more to transfer weight fore and aft to set the effectiveness of the steering. The thought that went through my mind it is reminded me of how a motorbike feels, needing to lose a bit of power to get the transition sometimes. I started treating it thus and it works a treat.
Had my first "great motoring moment" in this car on Thursday evening. Coming back from a drive around the Essex / Suffolk border area around midnight, where I had finally sussed the handling and was getting it nicely together, just passing Notley on the bypass, the car flowing through the roundabouts to perfection, the engine singing merrily away behind me, roof down and moonlight and fragrant May evening air pouring into the cabin. What a great feeling.
Chris
Quote from: "RUSTY"The Neovas are as stiff as the OE Bridgestones with the added advantage of excellent and predictable grip in wet and dry. When you're pushing on a bit, the tyres break away in a very linear fashion and provide a large amount of feedback. It has the effect of "slowing everything down" because you know exactly what is going on. Not as twitchy as the OE's.
Regarding the T1s, these have softer sidewalls than stock and when I went to a track day at Elvington some of the guys had sidewall melting issues even after increasing the pressures. Not sure if th newer T1Rs are any stiffer.
Advan Neovas cost me about £400 for a set of 4 from Lotus Elise Parts - but then you still have to pay to have them fitted.
Hi
For clarification, are we talking about the AD07 Neovas (the one with the solid wavy cenre ribs) or the earlier ones with the Assymetric V on the outer edges?
Chris
These:
http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=228
Quotereminded me of how a motorbike feels, needing to lose a bit of power to get the transition sometimes. I started treating it thus and it works a treat.
I like that - spot on s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "RUSTY"These:
http://www.eliseparts.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=228
Hi
Thanks for the info. Two last questions on these. What are the load / speed index for these tyres and how do they compare to the OE Bridgestone 040 for tyre noise?
Thanks again.
Chris
Z and no real difference.
Quote from: "RUSTY"Z and no real difference.
Thanks for that. Load index?
Chris
Sorry, I was incorrect with Z. The load / speed rating is 89W s:wink: :wink: s:wink: