Correct me if i'm wrong, which I really hope i'm not, but if you're cars burning oil, then surely it wouldn't turn the end of the actual exhaust white, would it??!?!
Someone please reassure me here! I've just spent about £200 on the car, new key, new naughty black and silver number plates, a patch on the roof where it had worn through from the inside, and general other little TLC items as well as a damn good clean inside and out and then, to top it all off, i'm out for a drive not more than 20 minutes ago, enjoying the fruits of my labour, and getting plenty of admiring glances, when I pull off a roundabout straight onto a dual carriageway, and decide to put my foot down, halfway through 2nd (so prob about 4500-5000revs?) and I see a load of white smoke in the rearview! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I Immediately clutch in, up to 3rd and slowly, very slowly, drive to a mates house nearby. It looks fine when stood still, ticking over, apart from the exhaust 'pipe' itself being white! s:? :? s:? so he stands there and watches me drive down the road 50metres, to make sure I wasn't imagining it and lo and behold, a small-medium amount of white smoke (or whatever it is) comin out the exhaust...
now, neither of us are mechanics by any means of the word, but we always thought that when a car was burning oil, it smelt of oil and the exhaust itself didn't turn white???
Please help?
I'm (kind of) hoping it's the main cat gone, would this cause this? if it's precat related, then surely it'd be oil, which wouldn't turn the exhaust white, and I can't see it being actual precat material itself as surely it'd get caught up in the main cat??
HELP!?!?!?!
Pre-cat material can (and does) pass the main cat, so it's a possibility. Best way is to hold a black hanky close to the exhaust while someone revs the engine: The particles should stick to the hanky and let you have a closer look.
Any other troubles? Lack of oil? Lack of power?
I'd say it was down to something else probably if this is your first 'symptom', so I wouldn't start panicking just yet bud. Do check the pre-cats, though.
Does the exhaust tip look like this? m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... ght=precat (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4644&highlight=precat) m
i'm going to go out and take a closer look at the exhaust in a sec. If you've read the thread titled 'Acceleration' then you'll see i was noticing a bit of a flat spot at about 4500 a couple of weeks ago, so cleaned the MAF and reset the ECU, but that didn't seem to make much difference.
The thing thats kinda worrying me now, although I may just be being paranoid, is that I've also said that i've noticed a slight drop in overall power (more towards the top rev range) this last couple of months, but i'd just put that down to the hotter weather, and perhaps I was just getting a bit more used to the car or something, of course, now this has happened tonight I'm thinking along totally different lines!!!
I'm kinda up S*** creek, it's my only car, I don't live on a major public transport route, and there's nothing even approaching a direct public transport route to work, i've at least gotta drive to work tomorrow to arrange some time off, other than that, I guess it's best to get it into MrT for that precat gutting I posted about the other day? and then hope for the best?
Quote from: "MRMike"Does the exhaust tip look like this? m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... ght=precat (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4644&highlight=precat) m
not quite, mine looks like it's got a much much finer white powder all round the inside than that, that looks like quite visible little lumps or grains. Much finer powdery appearance in my case...
If i recall correctly, blue smoke indicates oil burning and black smoke is down to fuel mixture so neither of those.
I think white smoke indicates coolant getting burnt, so worst case scenario would be head gasket, not precat. I'd be surprised though, I don't think anybodys had that occur yet?
Richie.
Mine's had that...and I thought mine was a gasket as well..
m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... ike+precat (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2806&highlight=mrmike+precat) m
I've been trying to find a picture that I took of mine when it had precat damage. And the inside of the exhaust tip had a fine powder, not disimilar to chalk.
Have you checked your precats yet?
no, not checked. was meant to be getting gutted in a week or two as per my other thread re: dealership gutting prices...
I guess it's pretty conclusive that it's gonna be the precats that're coming out the rear. Will just have to hope for the best, as spending £2k on a new engine or whatever would seriously screw my plans up at the moment.
just as an aside, i've just been searching and read that there should be a constant vacuum on the fuel tank, mine has only ever made a slight hissing sound when i've opened it once or twice, quite literally, what could be the reason for this? and is it likely to cause any issues?
Quote from: "jamesr1"no, not checked. was meant to be getting gutted in a week or two as per my other thread re: dealership gutting prices...
I guess it's pretty conclusive that it's gonna be the precats that're coming out the rear. Will just have to hope for the best, as spending £2k on a new engine or whatever would seriously screw my plans up at the moment.
just as an aside, i've just been searching and read that there should be a constant vacuum on the fuel tank, mine has only ever made a slight hissing sound when i've opened it once or twice, quite literally, what could be the reason for this? and is it likely to cause any issues?
if it does turn out to be your precats, you may get toyota fixing it out of goodwill - they did this for me as my car was 5 yrs and a week old when the claim went in. This was done regardless of my extended warranty, but on the basis that I had a full service history. No harm in finding out I guess?
Hope you get your issues solved,
Riche.
hmm, problem with that is that yes i've got a full service history, but no, it's not Toyota...
I'll definately be getting in touch with ToyoGB to find out what they have to say about it, but i'm not holding my breath! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
But, in the meantime, the cars going in the garage tomorrow to have any remaining trace of precat removed. I've ordered another main cat off Adam, hopefully it'll arrive in time to have that fitted at the same time. s:) :) s:)
But here's the question, if it doesn't arrive in time, would I be ok to get the car put back together with the existing (possibly partially blocked) main cat, and drive for a couple of days? or could this cause damage to the engine? I realise if it's partially blocked (which is more than likely) then it'll affect performance due to the excessive back pressure, and Adam advises me that it may cause an issue with overheating, but apart from that, If i'm taking it steady, and avoiding crawling traffic etc, do you think it'd be ok for a couple of days?? surely precat material thats blocking it can't make it's way all the way back up the exhaust from there?!?
I'd say that if you think you've caught it before any damage has occured then it would be much better to pay £100-200 in tax fares than risk damage - for the sake of a few days!
Yep, I'd go along with that - if the precat has gone, and its gone south, best not to take any avoidable risks.
Why not be creative and hire a van for a week - then you can do all those big shopping trips and runs to the tip s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm sure Adam'll come through for you if he possibly can. But there's a J-Spec Cat idling in my garage if you really need a temp fix (for a week or two s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
thank you, I very much appreciate the offer! s:D :D s:D but I've paid Adam already, and he said he was shipping it out on a 24hr DHL shipment, so there's no reason to believe it won't arrive either tomorrow or Thursday (he wasn't sure if he'd missed the cut off for todays collection)... thanks for the offer though!
If it doesn't arrive tomorrow then yes, I think i'll make alternative arrangements for thurs & fri...
I've asked the garage to call me when they've got the manifold off, so I can see the state of the precats, before they do anything else, so I guess i'll have confirmation that it really is them that caused the white powder sometime tomorrow, hopefully around lunchtime so I don't have to get up too early! (booked the day off to recover from the stress of it all!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
Has the oil consumption increased at all? Have you had a look at the state of the oil on the dip-stick? IIRC when the oil turns milky that indicates water in the oil, i.e. a dodgy head gasket maybe. Once, when I was a teenager (a long time ago), I put too much oil in my Mk2 Escort and it just chucked it out of the exhaust pipe in the form of thick white smoke much like you described, didn't do any lasting damage though, except to my street cred.
Ahhhh the days before Cats. Life was so much easier then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Symptoms in James' case all seem to be pointing towards precat breakdown and Main Cat blockage Leeber, but yes its always worth keeping a routine eye on oil (and coolant) levels. They can tell you so much.
Head gasket failures in our membership have been very very rare (IIRC biggun had a scare recently - not sure what came of that). The 1-zz holds itself together well - even when boosted s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I've read through this again and I'm not wholly convinced that its precats. It's still very possible, but i'm more inclined to think that it's something else.
IMO if it were precats, I would expect to see other symptoms such as a loss of power due to blocked cat or some oil consumption or blue smoke.
The only real symptom I can see from reading through this is that james gets white smoke when he puts his foot down. I still think this is related to coolant getting burnt somehow (eg cylinder head gasket failure)
James, to help diagnosis, are you able to find out the following:
1) The current condition of the precats (preferably top and bottom if possible),
2)Is there any sludge in you're coolant tank?
3) If you remove the oil cap, is there any gunky crap on the inside of it?
4) is there any symptoms at all that I've missed when looking through the above?
Thanks,
Richie.
Quote from: "Richie"4) is there any symptoms at all that I've missed when looking through the above?
Loss of power half way through this thread (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=144657)
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "Richie"4) is there any symptoms at all that I've missed when looking through the above?
Loss of power half way through this thread (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=144657)
Ahh that explains it then - I got the idea I was missing something when reading through everybody elses responses.
Thanks Spit.
NP. My first thought was water/coolant too.
The TTET guys have had a white smoke condensation issue before now, but without the loss of power s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Lets see what the precat inspection shows up. Back to you james......
Quote from: "spit"NP. My first thought was water/coolant too.
The TTET guys have had a white smoke condensation issue before now, but without the loss of power s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Lets see what the precat inspection shows up. Back to you james......
Pure white condensation, no flakes or white spots though!
indeed, it doesn't seem to be smoke at all, it seemed to be almost like a powder, as the inside of the exhaust seemed to be coated in what looked like chalky white powder.
The car is currently in the garage, was meant to have had the manifold off today and then call me so I can see the state of the precats but the muppet who was working on it forgot to wear any eye protection and got some crap in one of em whilst under it. He ended up having to go to casualty as they couldn't clean it out properly, which pretty much ended the work on it for today, as they're really busy. pretty much dented my confidence a bit as well, but there we go...!
Not too worried about the delay, the CAT from Adam didn't arrive today, so they couldn't have put it all back together today anyway. Will have to wait and see what happens tomorrow...
TBH this just sounds as though the engine is running lean - as anyone who has been around cars for long enough to have owned one with a carb (yes - engines havent always been injected!) will know that when adjusting the fuel mixture, you aimed to get a slight chalky appearance to the exhaust after a long run. This indictated you were getting the best fuel economy as their was no unburnt fuel in the exhaust. The downside to this was you didnt have a hope of passing an MOT as the emissions would be way out of spec, along with a higher risk of burning out a valve.
I would be concentrating on the O2 sensors first of all, and then the MAF.
You have had an emissions test done havent you?
seriously??!? I had no idea that running lean could cause a sort of white powdery exhaust?!
As I mentioned earlier though, i hardly ever seem to have much of a vacuum in the tank, could this be related? Also, due to circumstances beyond my control (the ex! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ) I've run down to the petrol light, and then some, before being able to fill up this last two times, i don't suppose some crap could have got pulled through and be blocking something?
right, the garage are having serious issues getting the manifold heatshield nuts off. s:( :( s:( apparently they've tried everything they can, but they're just too rusted/corroded and fused and stuff, they ain't budging. What they're going to do is take a grinder to em to remove em, then drill and retap. s:? :? s:?
I think my confidence level in this whole thing getting sorted ok is dropping as quickly as I expect my oil level will when it does get put back together again! s:( :( s:(
And, just to make life even more interesting, got a phone call from Adams brother today, to be told 2 days after I paid for the replacement main cat that he miscounted stock and they don't actually have the one he sold me! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Now, I've checked local scrapyards etc and no joy, so, what my local garage are suggesting is cutting my existing cat in half around the middle, removing all the contents then welding it back together again. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Obviously this will completely fail an MOT, which he sort of winked and nodded at! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: but I take it that it'll run ok until I can get a replacement cat sorted out?? (also, are the main cats stainless as well? would they have any problems welding it?)
Your advice as always is very much appreciated! (apart from "should've taken it to MrT!")
cheers
James
Crikey s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
James, my previous offer still stands pending Adam coming through for you if its of any use over the interim.
I've also got a spare heatshield, two manifolds (and even an exhaust!) if your garage manage to completely gung-ho the whole affair. Tempted to come and sort it for you myself s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Stu has a brand new cat for sale at the moment.
sitting in my garage
I'm pm'd him but, brand new?!? he's gonna want a fair bit for it I imagine?
Quote from: "jamesr1"I'm pm'd him but, brand new?!? he's gonna want a fair bit for it I imagine?
just spotted this cat & backbox for £50 on ebay:
m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 4653451770 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4653451770) m
Good luck,
Richie.
cheers for that, but I've got the car back now and think i'll wait for either Adam to get hold of one, or for one of my local breakers to get me one...
Interestingly enough, it was my left hand precat that went, I know that's been mentioned on a couple of other threads, not sure of the significance though. I completely forgot to take photos as well, sorry! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Upending the main cat also produced a load of precat material that had ended up there. With me not being able to get hold of a permanent main cat replacement in time though (thanks for the offer though Spit, much appreciated! s:) :) s:) ), and needing the car back on the road, the garage have done a bit of a cowboy job with my current main cat, and basically removed all the contents of it. Needless to say I appreciate I'm now technically MOT-less, but it'll keep me going for a week or two til I get a replacement. (It does sound like a tractor though, which certainly ain't good!! definate motivation to get a replacement cat!!! s:( :( s:( )
It doesn't seem to have lost any power though, which I guess is the main thing. I'll just have to keep a very[/b] close eye on the oil level... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I'm not sure if it'll make any difference, but what I'm also planning on doing, in light of what rollazuka (was that his username?!? s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ) said on the other precat thread, is to have an oil & filter change halfway in between services as well, to try and prevent these oil drain holes (or whatever they are!) getting clogged up, if indeed they haven't already. I can't see anything else I could do to try and prevent that happening other than getting a modified short block assembly and piston/rod set, which I'm certainly not keen on forking out for s:? :? s:?
Needless to say I'll be writing to Toyota UK regarding their £18k sports cars that don't even last 6yrs/80k miles, although I doubt I'll get anywhere... always good to let off steam though i suppose. I'll keep ya posted on whether I start losing horses and / or copious amounts of oil! s:? :? s:?
Good luck with writing to Toyota GB and let us know what (if any) reply you get. As i've mentioned in the other precat thread my oil consumption is pretty high but its been like that since February and the important thing is that it has not got any worse. I am now in the habit of checking the oil daily.
hmmm, not good. Just been out for my first real drive since getting it back.
Now, this may just be due to the total lack of any sort of Cat, but when i've been engine braking/decelerating for a bit (eg. down a hill) and then give it some gas, I'm getting a suspiciously blue-white puff of smoke out the back.
Is this as bad a sign as I think it is, or is this 'normal' for a car with no cat? what do you think?
Glad you've got it back now mate, s:D :D s:D
As for the smoke, i'm not sure (someone will know) but you've technically got no smoke filtration at all now with no cats of any sort, so what comes out your exhast manifold is whats gunna come out the end of your exhast pipe.
Keep a eye on your oil though, i have to put a small amount in every month now, it drops from full to 3/4, so its not really that bad. (did that make sense?)
Is there any loss in power at all now?
Quote from: "jamesr1"hmmm, not good. Just been out for my first real drive since getting it back.
Now, this may just be due to the total lack of any sort of Cat, but when i've been engine braking/decelerating for a bit (eg. down a hill) and then give it some gas, I'm getting a suspiciously blue-white puff of smoke out the back.
Is this as bad a sign as I think it is, or is this 'normal' for a car with no cat? what do you think?
Not sure if this will help ease your mind, but being an old fart s:oops: :oops: s:oops: running pre cat engines - much prefer them, there could be two trains of thought:
1. When you have messed about with the exhaust system to the extent you have then there could be a residue of oil in the back box plus what ever's left in the old cat. When you "exhaust" or use "engine braking" this tends to scavenge to system - basically drawing the hot gases back into the system/head which causes what ever has been sucked back to burn and produce smoke
2. Or it could be using oil which is either coming from the bores or the valve guides. Much the same principal as above except it's drawing from the engine.
The question is, the next time you drive the car is it still smoking? if so is it getting worse or less - if its the latter then it could be down to point one.
The reason I suggest point 1 is when I had my exhaust fitted by Blue flame it took a while for the car to stop smoking due to the oils used to manufacture the exhaust still being present.
Hope this helps a little - good luck
Rob
yeah, that's the way i'm thinking (and hoping) it's going to go. The smoking does seem to be getting slightly less each time I drive the car; I've been trying to put some miles on it with the current exhaust setup so that I can find out exactly whether it is burnin loads of oil or not, as once I get a cat back on there then all traces of smoke will disappear.
I'm happy to report that it's not lost any power. Indeed, it seems quite a lot free-er (spelling!?!) and a bit more lively than it has done for months!! s:D :D s:D
I'm guessing that this is because my main cat was gradually getting blocked by all the crap that was falling out of the manifold. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
I've not really had a car that's burnt much oil before, but a good friend who's always had old cars (most of which have burnt a lot of oil! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) such as Escort RS turbo's and stuff, tells me that it certainly doesn't smell as if it's burning oil.
The thing that led me to wonder whether it was anything to do with the welding on the cat was that the smell kinda reminds me of the soldering flux that my brother used to use when he was learnin to be an electronics engineer, i don't know if they use anything like this during welding...
You can get a lot of bizarre smells and smoke when you're running in after reassembly. Residues, oxides, jointing compound, even greasy paw prints from handling etc etc.
Unsurprising good news that you're revving more free now. Even on a car without precat issues, taking them out makes a noticeable difference.
From what you've said, I'd be cautiously upbeat about the state of your engine. In any case its good to get into the practice of checking your fluids regularly ..... and now you have no excuse s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Keep us posted.
Right, well, after having kept a close eye on the oil this last week, since it happened, I can say that it's used slightly over 1 litre since last saturday, thats about 1ltr to 300 miles s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
so, am i pretty safe in assuming that my engine really is toast!?!?
obviously i'll be keeping an equally close eye on it this next week, but if I get the same result again then I think that it's pretty conclusive and I need to start looking for an engine.
Anyone disagree??
Hurrumph s:cry: :cry: s:cry: Thats a fair drop of oil james. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
sorry, no i totally agree, good luck James
I thought mine was bad at 600 miles per Litre. As i've said in another thread mines not getting any worse so i'm topping up and monitoring until i can get it in the workshop in the winter time.
If for some reason it does deteriorate any further it will go in sooner. Not sure whether to go the shortblock route or just source another 2nd hand engine.
Good luck with getting it sorted anyway James!
got the mileage slightly wrong, it's 1Litre to about 400miles, not 300, but still... too much oil. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
I've sourced a cat, which i've already arranged to have fitted next saturday, and I'll be trying to get it in the garage tomorrow for an engine flush and oil & filter change, in case it's that possibility that rollazuka mentioned re: the oil return holes getting clogged up... (is that what they were called!?)
I think I can also get the oil analysed for free as well through a friend, although this is more out of curiosity as i'm not technical enough to be able to interpret the results properly. And I may also be able to get my engine compression tested for free as well, but again, at this stage I think that'd just be to satisfy curiosity as well.
I'll be measuring the mileage a lot more accurately this week to make sure I'm not wrong enough to make a difference (which is pretty unlikely! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ), although I'm pretty convinced this is gonna end with me trying to source an engine.
I'm guessing that since I haven't seen a drop in performance yet, and as long as I keep replacing the oil it's burning and not let it run dry, then it should keep going for a good few weeks? I'm just gutted that i've got an engine that seems to be performing fine, but is burning this much oil! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Your consumption does seem very high, although it may well be accelerated if you've got tired old oil and gloop in there. (I've had occasions with this engine where I've been due a change and used a litre in 600 miles - after flush and change it holds steady again).
Also, make sure you measure on the same level at the same oil temperature each time to get a good read. Some do it hot, others cold and settled (when its easier to read the stick!)
In any case, a flush and oil/filter change will set you onto a decent playing field for more informed monitoring of the consumption (sorry, I lost track and thought you'd already done this s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ).
I'm still quietly upbeat for you, but I've taken my pills today s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It was serviced about 3700 miles ago, so I wouldn't have thought the oil would be that bad, although it has started getting darker in colour...
going to phone the garage now to see if they can fit it in tomorrow morning for the flush etc.
Soz about the bad news mate
Did it use any oil before the pre cat failure?
What type of oil has it got in it? ie 10w-40, maybe putting thicker stuff in ie 10w-50 or 15w-60 would slow the consumption, but get somone on here to confirm that idea first.
thanks for that, but it's kind of a moot point now. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Just come out of tescos at 8.30pm this evening, started the car and saw a puff of smoke, and it felt very 'lumpy'. Not good thought I. better take it VERY steady going home thought I. s:? :? s:?
pulled out of tescos onto the dual carriageway, into third at about 2500rpm, got slowly to about 3000rpm then all hell let loose. no strange sounds or anything, but LOADS AND LOADS of white smoke. absolutely EVERYWHERE!!! s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:? :? s:? s:( :( s:(
Seriously, i've never seen so much smoke come out of a car! Looking in my rearview mirror I couldn't see past the back of my car. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Just a shame there was an MX5 directly behind me with his roof down!! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
So, I've just got home about 45mins ago, took me 2.5hrs to get recovered. the lamb joint that was in the oven is charcoal!! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
what confused me though, is that I always thought oil was meant to burn with quite a noticeable blue-ish colour to it?? but from what I can remember this smoke was white, not really any blue in it at all that i remember/noticed...
Is there any coolant left?
I looked at that as I was stood waiting for the recovery people.
It was at the minimum mark on the bottle. (it is the one just inside the engine bay on the left hand side isn't it!?!? s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
Yes thats the coolant reservoir.
Gutted for you matey. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: Is there a plan?
well, the chap from the garage came out whilst the recovery bloke was unloading it, as he lives next to the garage. He seems to think it's too early to write the engine off, and wants to have a look at it tomorrow if he can fit it in.
can't see it working out myself.
Adam had a 10,000 mile engine for £1000, i know another chap who's got a 38,000 mile engine available for £600...
get teh 10000 miler
Yep. there was a time when strip and replace was more cost-effective than shoving a new block in, but those days are gone. Go for low mileage.
Be good to get a diagnosis from your garage but not worth having them spend hours on a strip-down. Let me know what they say though - I could make use of an engine rebuild project for the autumn s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
£1000 for a 10K miler sound like a good deal.
Sorry to hear of your further troubles. White smoke is normally coolant related, is'nt it? - I remember the head gasket going on an old car and lots of white smoke.
Mines going in for a full engine flush and oil change on Tuesday - the first oil change since i had the precats removed. Whether it will cut the oil consumption or not i have no idea. Worth a try though.
Let us know if you get a diagnosis on your blown engine. Good luck.
White smoke was always clasically headgasket, yep.. but it's not the only thing that comes out white s;) ;) s;)
If oil is burnt in the cylinders it's usually blue - but modern synthetics (in my experience - don't ask!) burn very nearly white with just a hue of blue..
If oil ends up in the exhaust side (without going through the cylinders) - effectively just being 'boiled' it comes out white. Unlikely the case in our cars (unless turboed) though.
I had a car that went tits up with loads of white smoke pouring out the back totally filling the road! When I stripped it down it turned out it'd melted a hole in two of the pistons!!!
Sorry for your bad luck mate.
I seem to remember loads of white smoke pouring out of one tailpipe on my old Scimitar GTE, accompanied by a very loud knock from the engine.
It turned out that the seals had failed on the vacuum servo, and the engine was trying to run on brake fluid!
ISTRC watching out for blue smoke as a bad sign when buying a second hand turbo car
Quote from: "jamesr1"well, the chap from the garage came out whilst the recovery bloke was unloading it, as he lives next to the garage. He seems to think it's too early to write the engine off, and wants to have a look at it tomorrow if he can fit it in.
can't see it working out myself.
Adam had a 10,000 mile engine for £1000, i know another chap who's got a 38,000 mile engine available for £600...
That was actually 11,364 km. The engine has been run up, inspected and is clear from any failures. It does come with a warranty and we can provide a fitting service although we'll need the car for 2 days.
Adam
Km?!? so that'd only be about 6500 miles? that could well have tipped the balance. After much head scratching and finance analysing i went with the other one, but if I'd known it was even lower mileage (or kilometreage!? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ), as well as had extensive testing, I probably would've looked into how much it'd cost to get the car down to you... s:( :( s:(
How much would the fitting be just in case things don't work out? Also, any ideas how i'd get the car to you? (it's most definately not driveable at the mo!)
Right, well, I got the car back this evening. s:D :D s:D
Was very very nervous & apprehensive to be honest, especially after the guy says "yeah, that engine you got seems ok, it ran like sh** when we first started it, but after some new plugs and 15mins it doesn't seem too bad. There's a slight rattle at the top end but that could be the timing chain"! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
But anyway, I've taken it for a nice slow warm-up for a good few miles, then slowly opened her up a bit... well, the performance is certainly there! s:D :D s:D
either my old engine was losing power for some time, gradually, so that I didn't really register it, or it could be that i've been driving crappy 1.2L courtesy cars for a week, but my car now feels really quite noticeably quicker! s:D :D s:D
With regards to the rattle that the guy mentioned, it's not at the top end at all, it's at about 3k revs, and I think it's a heatshield. It certainly sounds like something rattling with resonance. The engine sounds slightly 'tappety' when idling, but only slightly, and I could just be being overly sensitive...
The only real issue I've got is that it threw a CEL after a few miles, and then seemed slightly less eager over 4000rpm, from previous experience after the accident last year, and from stuff I've read here, I'm guessing it's an O2 sensor. I suppose something was gonna pop after major surgery like an engine swap, so as long as it's that i'm not too worried. I'll reset the ECU tomorrow by way of disconnecting the battery and see how it goes. If it keeps coming back on and I can't find someone on here to read the code s:wink: :wink: s:wink: then I guess it's a trip to MrT to pay for it to be read...
Oh, and the passenger window doesn't work!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: but seeing as I appear to have come through this with an approximate total cost of about £1.3k (so far), which includes the engine, I can tolerate a couple of minor issues getting it settled down again.
Great to have you back so soon s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Whats happened to the old engine??
3k resonance rattle is a classic heatshield symptom (probably the one under the Cat).
Quote from: "jamesr1"Oh, and the passenger window doesn't work!!!
Just a stab in the dark, but you may have unwittingly joined the "DOH!" Club s:wink: :wink: s:wink: We've all done it, and those that haven't are liars! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
(See
Here for info) (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8645)
Quote from: "spit"Just a stab in the dark, but you may have unwittingly joined the "DOH!" Club s:wink: :wink: s:wink: We've all done it, and those that haven't are liars! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
hahaha!!! i'd completely forgotten about that!!!! I did know, and as soon as I read your post, i remembered, i'll check tomorrow. I've had a couple of glasses of wine tonight and as much as i'd like to know, knowing my luck, i'd be sat there testing it and a copper would pull up and do me for being 'drunk in charge...'!!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I'll check it tomorrow and let you know. And yeah, re: the 3k rpm rattle, that's exactly what I thought, it had a really bad one when I bought it and that was at almost the same rev point... here's hoping! *raises another glass of vino!* s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
**EDIT** Oh yeah, the old engine, currently sat on the garage's floor pending a decision I think. What would you suggest?? I'm in half a mind just to say they can have it if they can use it?!? wouldn't really be sure what to do with it myself... (of course, I'm open to offers!?! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Well I hope it's all sorted now James and it hasn't put you off 2s too much.
Let's hope it's just the passenger window switch and a heatshield, then you'll be all s:D :D s:D
yup, it was the window switch!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Reset the ecu to clear the CEL, and cleaned the MAF again while I was at it, as well as givin it a damd good clean! The CEL came back on after about 15miles though unfortunately, and again it seemed a little flat above about 4000rpm...
It took a lot longer for the light to come on than I was expecting though. I'll probably reset it again tomorrow and if it comes back on again, which I'm expecting, then it'll have to wait til I can meet up with SteveJ who kindly offered to read the code for me s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "jamesr1"With regards to the rattle that the guy mentioned, it's not at the top end at all, it's at about 3k revs...
Hmmm, I would understand the 'top end' bit to be a reference to the location within the engine, not the rev range.
My guess would be that he was talking about this:
QuoteThe engine sounds slightly 'tappety' when idling...
i'd considered that possibility, but it's only at a very narrow point in the rev range, namely somewhere between 2300-3000rpm depending on gear/roadspeed, which makes me think It's not the actual engine itself...
but then, I'm not exaclty renowned for my mechanical prowess!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
It's not apparent at standstill if the engine is taken to that rev level, but then, neither was the cat rattle that it had when I bought the '2, that was only present when moving/under load as well.
I'm meeting up with SteveJ tomorrow night, and some chap from Alfreton (sorry, can't remember your username! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), so i'll get em to have a listen then, we're meeting at a motorway services but I'm sure there'll be enough room in the car park to get the noise going. Better hope it's a big car park though, or we'll get dizzy going in circles!!
HI
Quoteand some chap from Alfreton (sorry, can't remember your username!
That'll be me then s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
ah, there you are! hello!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
well, after we all met up I'm a little more concerned about the state of my replacement engine! (thanks to Steve & Phil for putting my mind at rest! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
It would appear that I have quite a serious hesitance and long flat spot, the cause of which we're a little unsure. Plug gaps have been checked, I have NGK coppers and the gaps were set to 1mm, now set to 1.1 as per spec. I've now put a full tank of shell and some redex in it, as recommended, so we'll have to see if it's dirty injectors or something, failing that Steve suggested I start looking at replacing something called coil packs, sounds expensive to me! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:? :? s:?
Oh, and the worst bit, the rattle!!! it's looking like it's not a heatshield rattle after all, none of us could figure out what it was, or where it was coming from, but it has developed into more of a rapid clicking instead of rattling, and seems to be linked to the throttle being in a certain position instead of being at a certain RPM. It seems to be when the throttle is about 3/4 inch down. There is quite a bit of play in the throttle cable, but that's all taken up in the first 1/4-1/2 inch, although don't see how that could cause it.
It sounds like it's coming from the top of the engine bay, instead of under the car, which worries me. greatly. car is going to a different garage first thing saturday morning to see what they think, and possibly to another one saturday afternoon for a 2nd opinion depending on what the 1st say.
I think it's safe to say that if this engine turns out to have 'issues' then I'm going to have to sell the car for whatever I can get for it. Even if I could get the money back for the engine, there ain't no way I can afford to pay whatever extra another engine would be + the extra fitting. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
The ONLY[/b] thread of hope i'm hanging onto at the moment is that when I go round a fairly sharp left hand bend/turn, with the throttle at that position, it sounds exactly like a heatshield rattle momentarily...
any thoughts people? s:( :( s:(
I'm pretty much out of ideas I'm afraid. The throttle cable linkage to the Throttle body is adjustable to take up the slack, and it should be tightly locked down on the mounting plate and not jiggling about.
The only loud clicking I've had at the top end before was more of a clanking where the camshaft bearings had been temporarily starved of oil (a few of us have had this, but it soon rectifies and doesn't seem to incur lasting damage).
Belt tensioner is another hot favourite that can rattle but I know nothing more about it than that s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whilst heatshields are still in your mind, check the manifold ones (front and rear). The side mounting bolts hold the two together and the shield holes can corrode to effectively make the rear shield loose. Its hard to spot sometimes.
Unless anyone else has any nuggets, I guess we'll have to wait until the weekend to see what the mechanics say. But please get back to us rather than selling up immediately. There's always a way through these things.
Best o' luck
Ste
Well, I've just got back from a different garage, apparently the noise is coming from my little end, whatever that is. He said I may get away with replacing the bearings if I do it very soon, but he couldn't guarantee it. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
He said that it's a little beyond something that they'd fix themselves so couldn't really give me a quote, but recommended a garage nearby that apparently do a lot of engine work and are apparently very good at it. They were shut by the time I got there though, I'll have to try and get some time off work on monday. I'll be asking them what they think first without mentioning what the other garage have said, see what they think. the guy I saw today said that it should keep running for a while if I keep it well stocked with oil and take it very steady, but he said if I want to try and repair the engine then I should do it quickly. Although yesterday and today the noise has definately got a bit worse. Although occasionally it still sounds VERY much like a heatshield, and too 'external' to be coming from the inside of the engine, but hey, I'm no mechanic.
At this moment in time, without getting a loan out, I could throw another £700-ish at it (on a credit card), but in all honesty I doubt that it'd be enough to fix it, what do you think?
I'm seriously considering trying to part-ex it at a 'car supermarket' and playing dumb "I think it's a heatshield rattle mate, it's had a few of em while I've had it"...
(oh, and with regards to the guy that sold me the engine, not only did I leave my phone in a taxi last night, but I also can't find the email that had his number & address on. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: )
well, i found the details for the place I got the engine off. (and I also got my phone back thanks to a very honest taxi driver!)
however, even if they offer me my money back on the engine, I still can't really afford to add another few hundred to it to get a properly tested/guaranteed engine as well as the labour costs to swap them. so, what do I do? do I apply for a loan in order to sort it, or do I do the "resistor across the o2 sensor" trick to clear the CEL and then try and shift it in part-ex for something? (although i'm a tad worried that they'd see the performance issue as well as the rattle and run a mile)
anyone have a rough idea as to how much it'd cost to sort out a 'little end' failure?!?
a couple of questions
what oil are you running? what filter or induction kit? and if you had to pick left or right which side is teh rattle coming from
Quote from: "markiii"a couple of questions
what oil are you running? what filter or induction kit? and if you had to pick left or right which side is the rattle coming from
Oil is 10W40 dont know the brand (did suggest he might like to try somethng a bit thicker). There has been no oil usage or loss since the engine was instaled.
Stock intake.
The rattle sounds to be top end of the engine bay, and in the center of the car (but my dodgy hearing wasnt helping with locating it s:( :( s:( ) It sounds a very metallic rattle and only occurs on medium load throttle. When there is no load or full load the noise doesnt occur.
Given the way the engine bogged when opening the throttle, my first reaction was vac leak, but we couldnt find anything obvious and we werent throwing a 'too weak' CEL - only the all too common P0141
Now that the plugs have been checked, I am leaning back towards a loose inlet manifold, but we couldnt get at it to check s:( :( s:(
Any other ideas?
well...
* A new pair of shorts for a scorcher of a weekend - £15
* Food for a relaxing sunday evening BBQ with mates - £20
* Finding out a friend knows a lot more about engines than you realised - priceless!!
we got talking, as you do, and he said 'that sounds strange, it doesn't seem to add up, come on, start her up, let me listen'. Within about 30 seconds he said that there's no way it's the little end, "sounds just like a hydraulic lifter" he says. After some more explanation in laymans terms as to what that is, he says it sounds exactly like at least one of my lifters, or cam followers, has gone 'spongy' or soft, and is knocking, hence the clicking/rattling sound. He said that this would also affect performance, hence the hesitation and flatness that I've been having.
He couldn't say how much it'd be to get sorted cos he doesn't know how much parts are for the '2, but it turns out that he knows the garage I picked out of the hat yesterday and says he wouldn't touch them with someone elses bargepole! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: trust me to pick em, bloody typical!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: On a brighter note though, he did say that the garage this dodgy chap recommended to me are very very good, and that his work regularly deal with them, so thats where I'm off to tomorrow in my lunch hour (as originally planned anyway)
does this sound reasonable? Anyone got any ideas how much I ought to be expecting to have to pay? If it is that, then am I best of trying to demand the cost of the work, from the breakers where I got the engine from? and lastly, are cam followers something that's likely to still be intact on my old engine, that could just be transferred across?
as always, thanks for the advice, very very much appreciated!! s:) :) s:)
hhmm teh tappets on teh 2 are notorious;y noisy so could just be that
Quote from: "markiii"hhmm the tappets on the 2 are notorious;y noisy so could just be that
True.. they're noisy because they're
not hydraulic.. In fact, ours are shimless solid lifters - so they're notoriously noisy because it's impossible to adjust them for zero lash (which is, in effect, what a hydraulic tappet does).
A popular conversion for the 3S-GTE (which uses shim under- or over-bucket, depending on year) is, in fact, to convert to 1Z shimless solid lifters.
It
is possible that the clearances on one are off - but if so, why? That would indicate lifter or cam wear, which would indicate oil starvation to the top end at some point IMHO...
oil starvation? so basically what you're saying is that the whether it's the little end, or the lifters, the engine is still pretty much screwed?
I'm still going to go to this garage at lunch as I feel I need to have a diagnosis from someone with a good reputation who's looked and listened to the engine, to add some weight to my kicking off with the breakers.
It's looking more and more like it's going to be a resistor across the O2 sensor to clear the CEL and an attempted part-ex/swap at a car supermarket or something, unless the breakers either offer to cover the cost of the engine swap (and I can find another engine for about £600-800), or offer to repair the engine (but from the sounds of what you've said, it may be cheaper to source another engine); Neither of which I can afford myself...