I bought my roadster 3 months ago, and have had an amazing blast over the summer, and still learning it capabilities in the dry, pushing a little bit more and more each time on (empty) roads that I know, til i found the limit, learning all about what it means to drive a RWD car, and it's been amazing, I love my car so very much. I'm a thrills kinda guy, and I'm a VERY easily bored person by nature, to the point of torture-by-boredom sometimes! But I havent got anything remotely near bored since buying and while driving this little beauty. I imagine over time I will be looking for a little more acceleration but hey, that's what the new turbo's for right??!
So today is the 1st time I've driven it in the wet, and oh deary me, none of what you lot have warned is false, and consequently, in wet conditions I will only be found driving like a complete and utter pussy, nay a granny, nay a granny-pussy!! I love my '2 too much to do other wise. I remember after reading all these driving-in-wet tips/warnings, and someone said "yeah but don't have too much respect for it", to this I say pish and bollox, unless you're an experienced rally driver, or on a private road, have the respect.
BTW I'm only talking about bends here, straight roads, fine, same as any other car in the wet, but roundabouts-et-al, whole 'nother ball game!
For those couple of guys freshly bought their 2's, do be very careful in the wet, and don't let it put you off the car, cos on dry roads, it is amazing fun, not to mention all the other good stuff that comes with it
I've personally never had any problems in the wet, but I'm known for my curses round here, so I have probably just knackered myself! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "Stevo"For those couple of guys freshly bought their 2's, do be very careful in the wet
Noooo, don't do that, do the exact opposite!
Go find a parking lot or something with plenty of space and throw the car around till you lose it. At least you'll know what happens and when...
Then do it again...and again...till you don't lose it anymore s:) :) s:) That's when the fun starts...I'm pretty much drifting all the time when it gets wet, cause it's just so dman fun s8) 8) s8)
Over here there are very few unmolested car parks around. Now they put kerbs, trees, lamposts and the like all over them.... to stop max muppets and more dubious characters from getting up to all sorts of trouble in their cars.
And even if you did find one, I wouldn't be surprised if either you were filmed on CCTV, and then later visited by the plod, or someone called them while you were spinning around.
Yeah, "normal" parking lots are full of stuff over here as well. But there are bigger lots without any obstacles in nearby industrial areas, which are deserted after 6pm...no one really cares about a quick spin in there.
Book yourself into a driver training day like some of us here have done - that way you can find the limits of the car on a nice open airfield, and then get shown how to control the car at the same time! s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Book yourself into a driver training day like some of us here have done - that way you can find the limits of the car on a nice open airfield, and then get shown how to control the car at the same time! s:D :D s:D
Well yeah, there's definitely that, a great idea, but then I'd never take it to the public roads myself, unless someone could guarantee I had empty roads and no curbs/ditches to deal with.
But hey, that's just me!
Quote from: "Stevo"but then I'd never take it to the public roads myself
sorry, what do you mean by that - i dont understand?
Quote from: "Stevo"learning it capabilities in the dry, pushing a little bit more and more each time on (empty) roads that I know, til i found the limit, learning all about what it means to drive a RWD car,
Quotekrisclarkuk wrote:
Book yourself into a driver training day like some of us here have done - that way you can find the limits of the car on a nice open airfield, and then get shown how to control the car at the same time!
QuoteWell yeah, there's definitely that, a great idea, but then I'd never take it to the public roads myself, unless someone could guarantee I had empty roads and no curbs/ditches to deal with.
But hey, that's just me!
I "THINK" that's what he meant[/quote]
on i see!
still think its going to be worth every penny of this driver training day. s:D :D s:D
Put in basic terms (I hope) - yep, agree, driver training day good, but for me, on public wet roads with other cars about, I wont be trying find the limits I can push on twists/turns. And even after a training day i wouldn't be attempting to see if I could pull off that move I learnt on the training day out on the "public wet roads with other cars about".
Hey look, I'm 31 tomorrow, meaning "well into my thirties", I can feel this thing called responsibility creeping all over me like a rash....why even soon I might agree to marriage & kids with the missus!!
So yeah, in summary - whatever, forget I even spoke/wrote
Quote from: "Stevo"Put in basic terms (I hope) - yep, agree, driver training day good, but for me, on public wet roads with other cars about, I wont be trying find the limits I can push on twists/turns. And even after a training day i wouldn't be attempting to see if I could pull off that move I learnt on the training day out on the "public wet roads with other cars about".
Ahh, but i wont either - remember, i caused £1400 worth of damage to my car going less than 30! i didnt expect the car to do what it did, and maybe with a little bit of training in the handling of a rear wheel drive car i 'may' have been able to make it less painfull on the wallet. It was in the wet, i was not driving fast or aggressivly, it just steped out and bam!!!
I dont think the idea of the course is to see how much faster you can make yourself on a public road, more how to make you drive safer on a public road with your car.
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"It was in the wet, i was not driving fast or aggressivly, it just steped out and bam!!!
You wasn't driving fast, fair enough, but you must've been driving
too fast for that particular situation, even if too fast was 15mph (or whatever it was).
If it takes a course for you to suss out these things then fair enough.
Alternatively you can just (to quote my initial post) be careful in the wet!
Naa, in fairness, I have no idea as to the nature of the course, but you know, dont mean to wind you up KC and all that, but can't leave it alone!
I think there was desiel on the road, which as you will know, you cant see... so when i came off the roundabout the car just went bye-bye... tell me you could have got out of that situation.
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"tell me you could have got out of that situation.
I could've gotten... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Seriously, no idea...I've lost the ass on wet and dry roads. You gotta act pretty damn fast to catch it on MR2, but so far I've managed to do it.
It's like...with normal fwd car things go like:
1, 2, 3, losing traction, 4, 5, still sliding...sowhat...just slow down a bit
And a normal rwd:
1, 2, 3, losing traction, 4, put down the mobile, better fix it now, before it spins
And a normal mid-engined:
1, 2, 3, still lots of grip, 4, 5, stil gripping, 6, 7, stiiiil...shit, it just spun...
Quote from: "Tem"I could've gotten... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Seriously, no idea...I've lost the ass on wet and dry roads. You gotta act pretty damn fast to catch it on MR2, but so far I've managed to do it.
It's like...with normal fwd car things go like:
1, 2, 3, losing traction, 4, 5, still sliding...sowhat...just slow down a bit
And a normal rwd:
1, 2, 3, losing traction, 4, put down the mobile, better fix it now, before it spins
And a normal mid-engined:
1, 2, 3, still lots of grip, 4, 5, stil gripping, 6, 7, stiiiil...shit, it just spun...
Well put Tem. The type of tyres you've got on will make a big difference to how much time you have to catch it. I very nearly had a very nasty moment in the wet on the original Yokos but with the Toyos it's
much easy to detect when the rear starts to slip and therefore much easier to catch it.
--H--
exactly - there's that nail getting hit again... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
If there's anything that I can learn at northweald around the 6/7 point to help realise what's about to happen, then i'll be happy!
i'm guessing blatting around with music blaring doesn't help you 'hear the road' (well i know what i mean s:!: :!: s:!: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ) either!!
Just to add my 2p....
I don't think its just about speed... technique comes into it as well. I'm not talking about learning techniques to drive faster in the winter... I'm with Steve there and will take it steady regardless. But poor technique can unbalance the car, and maybe some people will skid when driving at a speed that is plenty slow enough for others. So I'm hoping the course will improve my technique such that "driving slow enough for the conditions" isn't then spoilt by me doing something silly!
Secondly, I guess there's always the unexpected... e.g. driving plenty slow enough for a corner, and then a dog runs out, or another car swerves. In those situations, "slow enough for the conditions" might not be "slow enough for evasive action". Of course, you could take this to the extreme and say that we should all be driving slow enough that we'll never be in danger of skidding whatever happens. Maybe. I'm not convinced I'm that clever, so I'm hoping the course will help if I've not foreseen the unexpected.
And thirdly, it should be a blast! Despite being old, and having the responsility of wife, kids, dog and mortgage... it should still be great fun chucking the car about in a safe environment, and meeting some of the guys from the forum.
Ooops, that turned into a bit of an essay!... sorry!
Quote from: "Hardcore"The type of tyres you've got on will make a big difference to how much time you have to catch it
Absolutely right.
There's far more to it than this but: Grippier tyres are generally more snappy and less grippy tyres tend to give a little more warning before they let go. Finding a tyre that has both decent levels of grip and progression is what you're after. But that again is complicated by what you plan to do with the car... Grip is not always good.
Righty, I've charged up the video camera and am going to Anglesey tonight. I'll endeavour to get some fottage of slideage (I usually CBA but I'll see what I can do). Much to the detriment of my really quite shafted Yokonova's but all in the interests of science you understand s:) :) s:)
Post soon. Will be interesting to see that.........
Will do. Generally CBA with in-car fottage but I'll see if I can't angle it so you can see what I'm doing.
Anglesey is perfect for this as you've got a high speed first corner (70+ double apex) which can be entertaining on the limit followed by a 90 degree right that you can trail brake into. After this is the most frustrating bit of the circuit in a Mr2, an uphill section that's niether 2nd or 3rd gear. You sound like you're going faster in 2nd but on a test day I've done there I found 3rd is slightly quicker. Then you've got a left right flick which is great fun and then a short drag up to one of the sharpest hairpins you'll find on a uk circuit. That's an issue in itself as the 2 hasn't really got the grunt to kick the backend round on power so you have to find alternative means... Finally a left-right-left (on the power from the second corner on) back onto the main straight.
It's a very short lap, just over a mile and I get around it in 57.5 in the Mr2 (test day, not a track day). 55 is about average for an Elise, 53 for a cooking one with LSS or Nitrons and sticky rubber. Elise-R's are under 50 and Caterfields are in the 48's IIRC. Quickest thing around there out of the people I know was an Cat R500 at 46.something! Now we have a couple of Radical SR3's in our midst I expect that one to fall. Puts it all into perspective really.
I'll do a few proper laps then a few gooning ones. Proper laps are *really* boring to watch because on camera they seem really slow.
Sounds wicked!!! I REALLY need to take the '2 toa track day. Really do......can't wait for your post. ANY footage is good footage. I love that kind of stuff. Sure a lot of others on here do too!!
That gives me an idea...
I'll post something over in events in a second...
Interesting fottage on the cam'. Torrential rain all morning made for VERY interesting conditions (standing water, little streams accross the circuit) to the point that the track war closed for 1/2 hr to clear it down a bit at one point.
Never let it be said you stop learning at trackdays also. I've been doing them for 5-6 years now and I learnt more about wet weather driving in one morning than all the time up to this point. Put it this way, up to now I've done 6 trackdays with the Mr2 and only spun it once. Today I fell off a grand total of 5 times. This doesn't normally happen to me s:oops: :oops: s:oops: By the end of the morning I was sooooooo much better it was untrue. I blame MrT who put faaaar too much pressure in the tyres resulting in much understeerage. 26 front and 32 rear seems pretty spot on for the Novas.
Anyhow one good thing about wet trackdays is almost zero tyrewear and the fact that as you're not hammering it you can stay out a looooooong time and not knacker yourself or the car. Cue 45 minute sessions! s:D :D s:D
I was kinda worried I wouldn't get some dry laps in to show you the ciruit but it dryed up nicely after lunch so I went out and drove properly for a bit.
All in all a VERY good day. Car is a little muddy however... s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Fottage to follow after I've had a well deserved hot bath.
Righty then, got some of the dry stuff up from tape 2. Not the greatest fottage in the world and the lines seem a bit odd because of the angle of the camera... Anyhow, enjoy!
Wet fottage to follow, CBA last night as I was absolutely knackered. At work at the mo so I'll probably get around to it this evening.
Anyhow, the earlage: http://www.bookatrack.com/-pg?1963
Quite impressive how quickly that Exige went past, what a noise! JDM spec Honda K20A in that puppy, LSD, nitrons, sticky tyres. Very sweet.
Edit: They're Quicktime mov's BTW. Gonna re-encode them tonight as something else methinks, prolly MPEG-4 or something.
downloading now......
watching now......
NICE! s:D :D s:D (YOU DRIVE LIKE A NUTTER! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: ) Love the way you just flick the back end out - class! s:D :D s:D
Makes me want to do a track day even more now! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Blimey, quite sideways there. Looks like you know what you're doing (numptys like me would just end up facing the wrong way on the grass). And FWIW I think you kept up with that Exige quite nicely.
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"NICE! s:D :D s:D (YOU DRIVE LIKE A NUTTER! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: ) Love the way you just flick the back end out - class! s:D :D s:D
Makes me want to do a track day even more now! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Why thank you *bows*. Only on track though, only on track s:) :) s:)
Anglesey 2004, I shall be making it so when Jonny gets back and reads his e-mails.
Quote from: "phil4"Looks like you know what you're doing
Thanks! But it's just practise and as I've said, I still get it wrong every now and then. I'll post a montage of the spins later for your amusement s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Just started downloading the small 5.82Mb video by modem & will come back tomorrow when it is finished to pass comment s:!: :!: s:!: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
I'll try and make them smaller tonight, I just took the defaults from quicktime last night for speed.
Don't change them on my account.......I should move to a house in a Broad Band area s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
First vid was superb with some top driving. Now doing the elise biggy file while i go outside for an hour or 2.
TBH I've been reading up on MPEG-4 and I should either be able to double the res for the same filesize or half the size of them. Only downside is that I think you'll need the very latest Quicktime to play them so that could be an even bigger download s:( :( s:( As I only went to broadband myself recently I still feel for the modem-bound out there.
Well moving house is the only way i will get broad band for the next few years. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Have now got all 3 files downloaded & they are quality.
Respect s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Could someone convert them to .mpg or .avi...?
Only just got home, will try and sort them out tomorrow.
Our car in wet is so fun :p
Since i have been on a track day on a karting track that i have a better feeling of the car.
The reason for that was because it was a very slow track and some corners were wet.
That section of the track was the most fun to drive, lots of traction loss on the rear wheels and i had the oportunity to learn how to drift the car.
This learning helps a lot when you have a dangerous situation on a public road.
So people that don't know how to control the car when the rear gets loose do your self a favor and go for some parking lot and practice, or get some driving lessons.
Or else you will have a visit to the toyota shop for something repairs some day...
I think everyone knows that driving a RWD like ours with the mid engine setup is diferent than a FWD or even a RWD with a engine on the front.
By the time I've finished this the others should be at the same URL. Basically more of the same but slower (the wet laps) and to give you an idea of just how slippy it was in the morning (not to mention how easy it is to run out of talent in those conditions) there's a spinnage reel also.
enjoy.
PS> I will sort out a smaller format when I CBA.
Blimey, it looked like you knew what you were doingin the first 2 vids... very impressed... then the third one.... damn, you didnt get on with that one corner did you! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I would have probably spin in the pits in those conditions s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Finnally i some videos of someone that pushes the car to the limit s8) 8) s8)
Nice driving s:) :) s:)
What mods do you have on the car???
Suspension, tires, engine???
Whe in portugal have only 2 tracks and very few trackdays by year.
But whe have another places to have fun, like karting tracks and roundabouts ( i think that's the way it's write).
I'm speaking about those big circles where there is room for 3 or 4 cars side by side and only one trafic direction.
Those are the best public road place to learn how to drift the car!!
It was fantastically slippy at that point but the worst part was that parts of the circuit were drying so you'd have grip then suddenly none whatsoever as you can tell on a couple of the spins where it just snaps with no warning. /excuse 22 s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Seemed only honest to post some spinnage as well.
Mods to the car: None really. It's got a TRD panel filter that makes it sound a little nicer but does nothing else, it's on Yokohama Advan Neova LTS tyres (Lotus Elise road/track tyres) which are awesome and it has Land Rover rubber mats s;) ;) s;)
nothing on suspension?
Not even a front strut ?
I suggest you to spend some pounds on 2 things.
TTE springs (or another brand) = much stiffer suspension and less roll.
Lampka motorsport full suspension bars kit.
This is something that could cost you around 750€ + install.
With this setup you will have much more front grip.
I'm with that mod's right now, and the car is completly diferent to drive.
Much less oversteer and you can start drifts only by acelerator.
On tight long corners where our car like's to do oversteer and you have to play with height transfer to make the corner.
Now i'm doing that corners much faster and if i push really hard, i will start to get understeer s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
The car is much easier to control now.
I have a friend that installed another thing: 15mm spacers on the rear wheels, and he told me that the car is much easier to control with that mod.
I will check these out Solo! Just haven't been at home as yet this weekend and work won't run the software cos we are on Unix. But looking forward to it!!!
s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "MadMigMR2"nothing on suspension?
Not even a front strut ?
Nope. Boggo is the way forward, it's my road car and I already spend faaaaar to much money on my track car as it is.
QuoteI suggest you to spend some pounds on 2 things. TTE springs (or another brand) = much stiffer suspension and less roll. Lampka motorsport full suspension bars kit. This is something that could cost you around 750€ + install.
TBH I find the ride quite stiff enough and the handling is fine. The only reason (for me) to consider shorter springs would be purely cosmetic.
QuoteWith this setup you will have much more front grip.
I'm with that mod's right now, and the car is completly diferent to drive.
Much less oversteer and you can start drifts only by acelerator.
Hmmm. More front end grip would generally equal more oversteer not less. Only starting drifts by using the accelerator? That doesn't make sense.
Cheap mod/experiment for you, drop the pressure in the front tyres (softening the front) and you'll find much better turn in (more front end grip) coupled to a much livelier rear with the harder backs. The car with factory pressures has a tendency to understeer which is when the front pushes on, nice and safe for Joe Public but hardly entertaining. Certainly on the Novas the car benefits greatly from a dropping in pressures all round but, as I say, moreso at the front.
QuoteOn tight long corners where our car like's to do oversteer and you have to play with height transfer to make the corner.
Now i'm doing that corners much faster and if i push really hard, i will start to get understeer s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Hmmm, not something I want really. Some people like this trait, personally I don't see the point, may as well buy an FWD Integra Type-R if that's your thing, they're better at it.
QuoteThe car is much easier to control now.
It's a doddle anyway. I haven't driven a more forgiving RWD car in my life other than a live axle Caterham.
QuoteI have a friend that installed another thing: 15mm spacers on the rear wheels, and he told me that the car is much easier to control with that mod.
Messing with offsets is generally not a good idea. Good way to shorten the life of your wheel bearings. 15mm is quite a lot of extra offset. If you must do this use proper machined ali spacers made specfically for the hub that's on your car. The cheap generic ones are a *really* bad idea. Basically if they cost him £20 a pair or less they're cheapy ones. Expect to pay £60+ for a set of proper machined ones. You'll also need to fit longer wheel studs (a real PITA) otherwise you end up holding your wheel on with 15mm less thread.
EDIT: FWIW this is a proper spacer http://www.bookatrack.com/-PG?juansolo&363&4370&640 You'll notice that it has the lip in the centre for the wheel to rest on, similarly it has one at the back so the spacer is perfectly central as is the wheel. The holes are also in the right places and not the long cutout, one size fits all, stylie. I have to use them to get around the calipers as I run 13" wheels and those calipers are massive. Total overkill really, don't even need to use vented disks as they don't get hot because it's essentially open wheeled at the front. It came with them on, it stops like hitting a brick wall so why change it*?
*Ok, to reduce unsprung wieght but it's a lot of arseing about and where do you draw the line? Billet calipers, ali belled floating drilled/shaved disks, ally hubs, ali uprights... By the time you've done all that you've spent in the region of £600 and then some. Will it be better? no doubt. Is it worth the expense/hassle? not really when the brakes on there are rediculously good.
Sorry it's one of my bugbears, I do tend to go on a bit about it... s:oops: :oops: s:oops: If it works, leave it alone. If it breaks, within reason replace it with an uprated item.
I see that i have to make a visit to england to show you the advantages s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I loved the car stock, It has a very unique handling, but this mods i told you only improves the handling even more.
With the lower springs you will gain maybe +10km/h on curves.
Maybee i didn't explain well, you can drift the car more easy and you can finish the drifts better.
What hapened to you on the track when you lost control, wouldn't happen if you had the springs and suspension bars.
When you loose control for on side and then the car suddenly gets grip and goes to the other side faster than you can control it, this effect will be more controlable with the mods i told you.
I'm not so wild driver has you, but i like to put the car sideways and with this mods i noticed a much bigger control.
Point taken but:
QuoteWhat hapened to you on the track when you lost control, wouldn't happen if you had the springs and suspension bars.
When you loose control for on side and then the car suddenly gets grip and goes to the other side faster than you can control it, this effect will be more controlable with the mods i told you
Nope the reason I span was a sudden loss of talent rather than anything wrong with the handling of the car. I can tell you exactly what I did wrong in every situation there to cause it. FWIW I did about 100 laps that day and that spin reel was all the spinnage that happened.
Also you must bear in mind that the fottage does not do justice to how slick the track was and just how much standing water there was. Grip was very variable thoughout the circuit. Suspension cannot work miracles and there is a limit to grip no matter what setup your car has. For example the Mr2 was lapping everything on the circuit in the wet, eating caterfields for breakfast. Yet after lunch, when it dryed up it was one of the slower cars out there. Bearing in mind that there is little set up better for track use than a Caterfield it blows the set up theory out of the water.
Just had chance to check out your vids from Anglesey. DEFINATELY put me down for a day there! Looks like a lovely little track! And nice hooning mate! I really, really need to do a track day. never actually done one in my car, but done a little single seater stuff at bBHrands Hatch, as well as a Toyota day there to try out the '2 at launch, as well as a few laps in a (pretty dull) Audi TT and then also in a 111S at Hethel and I have been hooked every since! I REALLY really need to get to a track............
Roll on April (ish)...........
Cheers for that Solo! s:D :D s:D
It's a cracking circuit. Plenty of runoff everywhere apart from the hairpin, where in the conditions at the weekend, I wasn't taking any chances. I believe it did claim an over enthusiastic Elise, though there was little damage.
Back to the moddage, I think I should clarify where I'm coming from as on re-reading my above replies they do seem a little harsh.
I have a slightly different attitude to most people here when it comes to modding cars. It's not that I'm right or they are, it's just a differing opinion. Personally I'm of the belief that the best performance mod you can do to a car is to uprate the driver. The beauty of this is that it's not money you never get back as with most car mods and you can take it to any car you own.
I'm not saying that you're not changing or improving your cars for the better as you more than likely are, just that I'm not particulaly bothered about being that much quicker than anyone or anything else. It's quite quick enough for me and IMO very well set up out of the box. If there was anything fundamentally wrong with it I would sort it (like the tyres which are simply not up to track use).
It does help that I do have another car that I *do* modify rediculously heavily so I do understand where you're coming from. But the nature of that car requires very high levels of maintenance anyhow. It goes with the territory and mostly I enjoy it. I tend to see the Mr2 as the complete opposite of that though. A car I can simply get in and drive and not have to worry about it. That's all.
Hope that makes it a little clearer where I'm coming from.
Agreed Solo. Driver is most important. Improve that and there are serious advantages. Tiff Needel in a standard car would still probably whipp the arse of most of us in a modded car or not!
Roll on Anglesey!!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "juansolo"It's a cracking circuit. Plenty of runoff everywhere apart from the hairpin, where in the conditions at the weekend, I wasn't taking any chances. I believe it did claim an over enthusiastic Elise, though there was little damage.
Back to the moddage, I think I should clarify where I'm coming from as on re-reading my above replies they do seem a little harsh.
I have a slightly different attitude to most people here when it comes to modding cars. It's not that I'm right or they are, it's just a differing opinion. Personally I'm of the belief that the best performance mod you can do to a car is to uprate the driver. The beauty of this is that it's not money you never get back as with most car mods and you can take it to any car you own.
I'm not saying that you're not changing or improving your cars for the better as you more than likely are, just that I'm not particulaly bothered about being that much quicker than anyone or anything else. It's quite quick enough for me and IMO very well set up out of the box. If there was anything fundamentally wrong with it I would sort it (like the tyres which are simply not up to track use).
It does help that I do have another car that I *do* modify rediculously heavily so I do understand where you're coming from. But the nature of that car requires very high levels of maintenance anyhow. It goes with the territory and mostly I enjoy it. I tend to see the Mr2 as the complete opposite of that though. A car I can simply get in and drive and not have to worry about it. That's all.
Hope that makes it a little clearer where I'm coming from.
Yes it does!!!
It's simple has this.
How many MR2 owners know how to drift?
Portugal is a small place with very few MR2.
But the funny thing is that the persons that i know that own a MR2, are aware that this is a FUN car and that the rear end likes to play (even more in wet)
But from all the mr2 owners i know, only 4 persons know how to play with the car and do some cool drifts without loosing control of the car.
The first experience i had on the passenger side on a MR2 was with a owner of one of the first MR2 that come to Portugal.
He bought is Car in August 2000 and i only met him in April 2001 when i bought my MR2.
He is a really good driver and know how to play with the MR2, the same way you do.
That small trip on the passenger side included 4 fast and crazy drifts in 2 roundabout where the only thing i saw was the center of the roundabout and a big lateral g pressure.
I'm far to do that on my car.
I prefer wet conditions to have some fun.
And with the gt300 install and larger wheels and offset 0, the amount of extra grip i will have will be more dificult to drift the car, but i will manage that s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I'm thinking on install a extra water deposit that sends water to the rear tires when i want to have fun s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (JUST KIDING)
I will try to find my videos from the karting track day i had and post here
This morning driving to work and minding my own business. Stopped at some lights on a major road, three lanes across. It was raining, I accelerated off the line and moved over to the outside lane as I have done many times- back end flipped out and I span 360 in front of all of the other rush hour traffic and came to a stop (facing forward again) up against the kerb!!!! Intitial shock turned to embarrassment when I realised no major damage done.
It was a complete miracle that I didn't hit anybody/thing and will only need my wheels realigned - body work was untouched fortunately however, the front left alloy has been scraped on the rim.
The worst thing is that this happened well within legal limits for the road and also within driving cababilities that I thought I had. Until you spin your Mr'2 you can't really appreciate just how easy it is to do - and the conditions only have to be slightly wet. Please, please, please take it easy as you may not get off as luckily as I did.
I'm gonna be driving like my dad for the next few months....
The road was wet, went around a roundabout have seriously damaged the 2. The whole drivers side is shagged and the rear axle is. A cheaper car would probably have been a write-off, and it yet may be so but am awaiting the decision s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Seriously pissed-off at the moment, more at my own inability to control it.
BUT PLEASE TAKE HEED OF THE COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD! I DIDN'T!
see (people that had a dig at me)... its not just me that lost the back end of my car at low speeds....!
Sorry to hear that Jag. Wet weather and lots of damaged '2. Be careful.
Yep it's becoming common. Last night I took a very sharp 90 degree bend (on a road called Winding Hill s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ) at just under my normal (dry surface) speed for that bend.
But the car wanted to go straight on and had a mind of it's own, I managed to stop the slide and correct it in time but the surfaces are very greasy out there where the leaves have been sitting.
I've got to get rid of these Yoko's and slow down of course. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
Fingers crossed it wont happen to me, I need all the advice I can take to avoid this pitfall
Quote from: "elfin"does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
nope s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "elfin"does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
nope s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
I agree with kris. Best bet is just go slower and be smoother.
And then do a driver training course so you know what to do when it all goes wrong.
Quote from: "elfin"does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
Actually...if you're around the grip limit on a curve, lifting the throttle is one of the best ways to spin...
Absolutely cacking myself driving home just then, heavy rain and a bit windy. I think reading these horror stories makes you even more self conscience of spinning out under these conditions
Quote from: "elfin"heavy rain and a bit windy.
Yup, it's evil weather out there.
Hi Guys new to your forum, but thought I'd stick my two penneth in s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I've not even got my two yet, it arrives in 3 weeks, but I have just offloaded a 320BHP Sti Impreza, and I can honestly say the most important piece of handling advice is.....
Slow in fast out! Even in a rear wheel drive turning on the throttle if you go in fast and your back end moves out, you may be in control but what about the bus full of old age pensioners on the other side of the road coming the opposite way.
Unless your on a track or you've just been caught by diesel/ice on the road its just not worth it. The other thing of course is some of you guys have LSD's on your cars which makes another huge alteration to the character of your traction, and produces another set of rules to power in turns.
If you really want to drive a rear wheeler properly go to a rally school, someone like Phil Price, and listen to what they say about handling a rear wheeler, its scary s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
As I said just my two penneth s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
p.s. Love some of the informative threads on the site, and you all seem to be really helpful people.
Quote from: "adair69"The other thing of course is some of you guys have LSD's on your cars which makes another huge alteration to the character of your traction, and produces another set of rules to power in turns.
What sort of difference/rules? I just drive slowly, would appreciate any advice.
LSD's are very cool thouroughbred diffs. If you look at scoobynet you'll find a number of latter day Sti owners going backwards into hedges because they altered the handling characteristic of the subaru so much, from the classic they were used to.
If you go into an island (or roundabout depends on where you live s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) and you were to drive spiritedly around, the LSD is putting power to the outside wheel effectively driving you into the corner. Imagine changing gear (yes lots did this) and suddenly the power no longer is being channelled out to those wheels s:o :o s:o because the LSD is only doing its job under load, then the power traction and whole set up of the car is unbalanced. In these 4 wheel drives a characteristic was a S shaped move on the road, and in more extreme cases a backwards ride into the hedge. The LSD helps the car to remain tighter and disperse the power to where its required, but only while you put power to the wheels s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
p.s. This does not mean you should keep the peddle down hard on corners, it just means if you make sudden throttle moves, as woth any car it will be .... err unsettled s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Since the MR2 can be difficult to handle in the wet, why don't toyota fit Vehicle stabilty control etc to the manual version of the MR2? (if that does actually help the handling of the SMT in the wet)
Quote from: "Steve"Since the MR2 can be difficult to handle in the wet, why don't toyota fit Vehicle stabilty control etc to the manual version of the MR2? (if that does actually help the handling of the SMT in the wet)
I'm guessing the VSC is only fitted to the SMT beacuse you don't have manual control of the clutch, making it more difficult to control the car once the slide starts - certainly having owned both SMT variants the VSC has stopped me getting in a mess on a number of occasions.
There is one down-side however - when I get back in a pre '03 SMT (ie. mph's tubby SMT) I have a habit of forgetting the VSC isn't there and combined with the turbo I'm quite impressed Martin still has a car s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "elfin"does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
Fingers crossed it wont happen to me, I need all the advice I can take to avoid this pitfall
Probably stating the obvious here, but for cornering in wet / slippery conditions I always aim to get get my speed sorted before entering the corner ( brakes / gear ), try to keep the speed constant through the corner and don't apply any hard throttle until the wheels are straight again. Not very exciting, but safe ( so far ).
Ally.
Quote from: "elfin"does it matter on how heavy-footed you are with the throttle to make it spin out?
Heavy-footed and car control do not go together. The sooner you start unlearning being heavy footed the more you'll get out the car. A trip to North Weald sounds in order s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "adair69"The other thing of course is some of you guys have LSD's on your cars...
All Roadsters have LSD as standard - Toyota never bothered shouting about it on the originals for some reason.
Quote from: "SteveJ"There is one down-side however - when I get back in a pre '03 SMT (ie. mph's tubby SMT) I have a habit of forgetting the VSC isn't there and combined with the turbo I'm quite impressed Martin still has a car s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
IRTA you're lucky I still let you drive it s:!: :!: s:!:
Quote from: "mph"All Roadsters have LSD as standard - Toyota never bothered shouting about it on the originals for some reason.
That's true for european models, but some japanese imports might not have it.
(and none in US, some of them read this board as well s;) ;) s;) )
Quote from: "SteveJ"I'm guessing the VSC is only fitted to the SMT beacuse you don't have manual control of the clutch, making it more difficult to control the car once the slide starts - certainly having owned both SMT variants the VSC has stopped me getting in a mess on a number of occasions.
I have proved my TC light works by being a smart on the throttle on a friends gravel drive, but how do I know the VSC has kicked in? Does another disco light come on in the instrument binnacle?
Just curious - I haven't seen a light, perhaps I'm not trying hard enough s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Slow In Fast Out is generally the safest way to drive quick on the road. It's also the quickest way to get a lower powered car around a circuit.
Safe because it lessens the chance of you going in too fast and ploughing straight on with a armful of lock doing sweet FA (understeer). This is usually followed by the panic lift on the throttle which causes the weight of the car to move forward over the front wheels, which in turn causes them to grip and the rear to lighten. Hello snap oversteer as the rear trys to overtake the front.
Quick because if you're concentrating on getting your line right you can balance the car and get the power down earlier giving a higher exit speed.
Going slow and powering out of the corner almost eliminates any chance of understeer.
Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
The LSD fitted to the Mr2 is a Torsen style affair IIRC. Same as you get on some models of MX-5. It's actually a torque biasing diff. If you want to be very afraid there is a big section on differentials on howstuffworks.com including the Torsen white paper (serious brain ache after reading that one!).
Basically it comes down to this: A torque biasing diff is a mechanical device that, as long as there is drive and both wheels have some form of resisitance, works by sending torque to the wheel that has the most grip. It does this to a ratio, usually of around 5:1. Therefore you can send 5 times the torque to an outside wheel under cornering. Beyond this threshold the diff goes 'open' but usually by this time both wheels are spinning anyhow.
They do not work however if there is no resistance on the wheels i.e. one wheel is in the air or on an incredibly slippy surface like ice where the threshold is passed almost instantly.
Torque biasing diffs are superb on road cars as they are silent in operation and reletively maintenance free.
Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
My feet are too small to do this.
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
not if your on about north weald you won't.
Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
not if your on about north weald you won't.
I thought it was one of the things on the confirmation email... i may be mistaken then.... still want to know what it is! s:D :D s:D
<edit> never mind, had it answered by another member (thanks mate) s:D :D s:D </edit>
I beleive heel/toeing and dancing the pedals is part of day 2 that Martin has done.
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
Heel and toeing.
As you are approaching a corner under braking you should be going down through the gears. If you are braking hard that weight shift to the front is once again causing problems at the back. Simply slotting a lower gear and lifting the throttle will cause the rear wheels to brake as the torque from the engine comes in hard as the revs rise to match the speed the car is travelling.
The lighter the car and the bigger/torquier the engine, the more exagerated the effect. For example, do this in my Westie and it's like applying the handbrake momentarily on every down change. The effect in the Mr2 is less so but under heavy braking it's there all the same.
To combat this, as you are braking and changing down, you blip the throttle to bring the revs up to match the speed in the gear you are going to, then release the clutch. This should make the change reletively smooth. But it does mean you need to use all three pedals at the same time.
Now this only comes with practise. It's best to just practise rev matching on down changes as you drive around every day. This will get you used to blipping the throttle the right amount. Then as you gain in confidence introduce braking. This is not really something to learn at track speeds and is easier if you just do it until it becomes second nature.
Now the technique:
Firstly, always get your braking done in a straight line (until you get very handy at least). By the time you arrive at a corner you should be at the right entry speed, balancing the throttle with the car settled.
On the brakes with the toes of your foot, turn your foot so the side of your heel can actuate the throttle, press the clutch in with your left foot, change down and blip the throttle with your right as you are releasing the clutch. All the time maintaining a constant braking pressure with you toes.
It's harder than you think as initially you'll brake too hard as you're used to braking with your heel on the floor. Again, it takes practise.
You'll also find that your footware helps also. Some trainers with a nice thin sole like Hi-Tec Squash or plimsoles. Something that you have plenty of feel through.
It's a ball ache and takes ages to master (I'm still a bit rough in the Mr2, ok in the Westie though as it's much easier to do in that) but oh so rewarding when you get it right. It's frightening how much smoother and therefore faster it'll make you.
Nicely said, Solo.
Personally I find it really difficult in the '2 being so tall, and having big feet s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yes, beautifully explained.
Of course, the coward's way out is to pay out the extra 500 squid and get an SMT. (Hey, if it's good enough in the F1 paddock, amongst other places, then it's good enough for me).
A bit of learning required to get smooth changes, but no 'pedal ballet' s:) :) s:)
Pictures say a 1000 words... Here is Hyla Breese, BTCC driver, Lotus Autobel Challenge driver and regular instructor for BaT (amongst other things) piloting a standard Elise. Amazing footage with Picture in Picture showing what his feet are doing. Bit big mind
http://www.bookatrack.com/-PFjsl197815941?jsl&1978&15941&video/x-msvideo
Also I've re-encoded my fottage at Anglesey as MPEG-4. You'll probably need the latest version of Quicktime or MediaPlayer or the like, but they're much higher quality and frame rate and if anything, a slightly smaller filesize. Still not very modem friendly though I'm afraid s:( :( s:(
Another person making it look a doddle.
great -couldnt view it! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Quote from: "juansolo"Also, learn to heel and toe as this also stops the rear of the car becoming unsettled under braking.
Im going to be learning this on this training day im doing... but i aint got a clue what it is! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Whats it all about then?
not if your on about north weald you won't.
I thought it was one of the things on the confirmation email... i may be mistaken then.... still want to know what it is! s:D :D s:D
<edit> never mind, had it answered by another member (thanks mate) s:D :D s:D </edit>
I guess you're talking about this quote:
QuoteYou will learn techniques such as the use of the controls, smooth acceleration, modulated braking, rotational steering, cornering, balancing the car on the throttle, the use of trail braking, trail lifting, understeer, oversteer, lift off oversteer, gear changing, heal and toe, skid control, spin avoidance and control techniques.
Not that I want to worry you, but if you learn one thing out of that list in a day you'll have had a good day. You'll begin on many of those topics on the first day but you won't be very good at them. It's both very depressing and very rewarding, first realising how bad a driver you really are, and then how much you can learn in a day (and after, realising how much *more* there is to learn after that).
Quote from: "juansolo"This is usually followed by the panic lift on the throttle which causes the weight of the car to move forward over the front wheels, which in turn causes them to grip and the rear to lighten. Hello snap oversteer as the rear trys to overtake the front.
What's
snap oversteer anyway?
If I come too fast to a corner (usually on purpose) and lift the throttle, the rear will get lose, but it's far from snapping. You just need a lil counter steering to slide through the corner. I feel safe doing it on 2-lane roads (obviously only on corners that I can see fully) and never had a feeling it would snap anywhere.
Solo, Hyla Breese is the geezer who took me round the Hethel track when I went to Lotus a few months back. A really nice guy. Austrailian isn't he? He was laughing a joking with me and very encouraging and said I did really really well and by the time I had got things going, wasn't THAT far off as fast as he was going........(although I did think he might have said that a LITTLE tongue in cheek, although I did think I was going quite fast..........). A top bloke, a top instructor and a top driver. Shame he couldn't get any more sponsorship for the BTCC.
Yup, that's the guy. Shame the engines in his BTCC car proved less than reliable s:( :( s:(
Anyone that can't play the Hyla vid that has a Mac, I have a MOV frontend (about 1MB) that if you run that with the AVI in the same directory, it'll run fine. Otherwise all I can recommend is that you have the latest versions of you favorite player. I'm a Mac type so can't really help out with what to use on the PC. FWIW MPlayer on the Mac works standalone with AVI's. But it runs perfectly with Quicktime 6.4, download the 3IVX plugin (small) and run the .mov that I can mail to you.
It is worth it.
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "juansolo"This is usually followed by the panic lift on the throttle which causes the weight of the car to move forward over the front wheels, which in turn causes them to grip and the rear to lighten. Hello snap oversteer as the rear trys to overtake the front.
What's snap oversteer anyway?
If I come too fast to a corner (usually on purpose) and lift the throttle, the rear will get lose, but it's far from snapping. You just need a lil counter steering to slide through the corner. I feel safe doing it on 2-lane roads (obviously only on corners that I can see fully) and never had a feeling it would snap anywhere.
That is lift off oversteer. Snap oversteer (which I've probably just made up) is a more violent, unplanned, version that is more difficult to catch. I suppose it's like 'over correcting'. There is no such expression as that either, basically it's 'running out of talent' as you put too much lock on when trying to correct a slide causing it to whip back the other way. See: tankslapper. Which is actually a biker expression for something entirely different (see when a biker gets out of shape and all becomes clear) though is used in car circles to mean when you slide one way, run out of talent, then the other, then the other usually getting more and more out of shape as you go along. As soon as it's gone more than twice it's best to stamp on the brake and clutch and bring yourself to a halt as quickly as possible rather than end up in a tirewall or, if on the road, an oncoming truck.
Confusing ain't it.
There were good examples of this talent loss in that spin reel that I did. Unfortunately I couldn't be arsed to re-edit them all together to re-encode them as .mp4's...
QuoteHeel and toeing.
As you are approaching a corner under braking you should be going down through the gears....
Excellent advice Juan, I've tried this method (safely) but the driving position doesnt cater well for tall-ish people with wide feet s:oops: :oops: s:oops: .
It was ages ago, but one owner from SC had a few home movies of him heel-toeing with the left half of his foot on the brake and blipping the throttle with the right half (same foot) s:D :D s:D
Just had a look at that vid from Solo. That is the guy!!! he is bloody brilliant. And a nice guy with it!!! God, he made that look easy. But what a car too................... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "elfin"but one owner from SC had a few home movies of him heel-toeing with the left half of his foot on the brake and blipping the throttle with the right half (same foot) s:D :D s:D
I have to do it like that in the Westfield as the pedals are too close together. Have to drive it in pixie boots as well. It really wasn't designed for someone who's 5'11" and 16st!