First off, a HUGE thanks to anyone who can make it to the bottom of the very long post!
s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
right where to start, i just bought a 2000 mk3 MR-S with 36,000 miles on the clock. and i took it for a test drive and it had a rattle that the guy told me was a heat sheild rattle (i thought it was the cat) but he said it was a heat sheild rattle. (the guy is a senior salesman for alfa romeo, i know this for fact! and he'd had the car for 2 years) So i ran it home all the way from scotland (dundee) i live near hull! and all the way back it was rattling about 3500 rpm. i got home and asked my stepdad (a mechanic) to have a look at the heatsheild and he had a look around and said that the rattle is coming from the back of the engine! (To describe the sound, it sounds exactly like a rickety diesel engine.) and it seems to be doing it more now! now im panacking, what could the rattle be? is the timing out? has anyone heard of this before or had it happen to them? its strange as theres sod all mileage on the car! PLEASE, PLEASE HELP! UPDATE: i have taken off the tensioner belt and the rattle is still there! took off some of the plugs clynder 1 and 2 and put a 8mm bit in the ht cable end, so the car would still run. and the rattle still there! it sounds like the rattle is coming directly from the top of the engine from cylinder 1 to be exact! this is rearly panicking me as ive only just bought it! i dont know if its using a lot of oil as i dare not drive it incase i do more damage! and if i need to drive it back to where it came from its got to last 400 miles!! JUST out of intrest how much will i be looking at for a new engine and where would i be able to get one from? thanks for any help that can be offerd. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
UPDATE: I Did about 400 miles back from scotland in it and i cant see any diffrence in oil level. i think the power is still there but i cant be sure as id never driven one before! (i was manily drivng back at 70 mph but did boot it some times s:) :) s:) and the pick up from 70-100 was impressive) and i was used to a mr2 rev 1 turbo!! the tapping is pretty loud and sounds like its coming from the cylinder 1 part of the engine! because the car is so low i could only get my arm under it and i was feeling about (D'oh! yeah right its hot!) and i put my hand on the sump and as the car reved to about 3500 rpm and the ratle started, i noticed i could feel the rattle on the sump! now even with my LIMITED experence with cars, i think theres no heat sheild around that area to be causing that is there? i spoke to one guy on the phone and he said a common problem with the early mr-s is that cylinder 1 could oval bore out and the piston could crack! causing it to sound rattley (more like a deisel engine to me) ALSO the guy who is picking me up for work has a 1.8 celica on a N plate and his sounds the same at about the same revs in 4th! but his is bearly noticeable! its quiet. I did buy the car private, but the guy told me he was a trader, and i even have the address of the place where he works! maybee i could use that to my advantage, i didnt sign anything to say sold as seen. And when i told him about the problem he says hes not intrested. am i fooked? thanks to all who could be arsed to read this. cheers. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
did you check teh precat thread as I advised?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but personally I wouldn't of bought a car with an unidentified rattle and gone by the word of the seller as to what it was. s:? :? s:? Found this link for you...question 12 is which applies to you.
m http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sh ... 38071.html (http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38071.html) m
Mind you having said that I bought mine from a trader and a problem occured after I bought it which I hadn't noticed on the test drive - ended up fixing it myself! s:? :? s:?
I think that you are barking up the wrong tree with going after him at work, they won't be interested as what he does outside and his dealing with selling his car has nothing to do with his work.
Maybe there is a owner in your area who you could meet up with and for them to have a look, fingers crossed for you that it is not serious. Good luck.
Hmmm. Now that there's a bit more story I'm not sure if its as simple as the famous Cat heatshield rattle that we discussed via PM s:? :? s:?
I wonder if a compression test across the four cylinders would help lead to a diagnosis and (hopefully) rule out something very nasty? (sorry, I'm no expert, but one of the other members might be able to confirm if this is worth doing...).
most definately worth doing
most serious engine related problems usually result in a knock, rattle or rumble that will increase / decrease with engine revs (big end, little end, main bearings top end problems etc). For something to happen at a particular rev point would suggest a balance problem causing vibration / rattle. Would an oval bore cause this? If it would then, given the kind of gap required, the oil loss / smokey exhaust would imho be certainly noticable.
Agree with the experts about the compression test
does the rattle sound metallic? or is it muffled in sound, if you can hear a mettalic rattle then its external of the block
Quote from: "kanujunkie"does the rattle sound metallic? or is it muffled in sound, if you can hear a mettalic rattle then its external of the block
sounds like your hitting the block with a hamer sound! like a diesel engine sound. but only as you go over from acceleration to deceleration, when stood or driving.
If it sounds like a diesel, then its a knock.
If it knocks at a certain point when you accelerate and then when you deccelerate then you need to rule out piston slap caused by bore wear.
Normally though this would tend to go away as the engine warms up and the components expand (and as said before, this would vary to some extent with engine revs, but not as much as with bearing problems).
Get peace of mind and do a compression test
Don't want to complicate this, but ther's loads of stuff on spyderchat about timing chain rattle.
Thanks for the posts guys, i couldnt stand it any longer and went for a steady drive, i noticed that the rattle/knock (or what ever where calling it) only appeares when i put the accelerator down about 2 inches anything over that and it comes back. when the cras warmed up its more noticeable as well it seams, you can hear it just slightly when its ticking over. illget a compression tase done and tell you what i find.
If it gets worse as it warms up then it is probably not piston slap due to bore wear. My money now would be on the timing chain.
I would be tempted to trust the garage here. Any good mechanic should be able to diagnose the source of the problem. You need somebody to recommend a good garage in your area.
Try a compression test, as a blown head gasket can surprisingly sound like a mechanical knock. I had a head gasket go on an astra and it didn't leak any water and no gunk in the oil. It did sound like a heavy knocking/ rattle though.
Quote from: "kingmodest"sounds like your hitting the block with a hamer sound! like a diesel engine sound. but only as you go over from acceleration to deceleration, when stood or driving.
As someone else said you should really get the car to an experienced mechanic - it's very, very difficult to diagnose noises over the internet..
But - a rattle on decelleration would normally point to little-end bearing failure.. that would, I think, be a first in a 1ZZ so I'd be more tempted to think big end bearing shells, a common failure point if you end up with a low oil level after pre-cat or oil control ring failure.
Of course, if it's not as bad as any of us are thinking it could be the old serpentien belt-tensioner failure, which is very common indeed (and most Toyota garages would know what you're talking about if you mention that to them - it's the little damper shaped thing, right hand side of the block) - tends to sound a bit diesely at idle and low-load.
Like I say - you really need someone who knows engines well to be there to physically listen to it, better still someone who knows 1ZZ and knows what their various death throes sound like..
Quote from: "markiii"did you check the precat thread as I advised?
Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "markiii"did you check the precat thread as I advised?
I did my friend, thanks. looking at it i dont think thats whats happened to my car! (im hoping) but as soon as i get the car sorted that is DEFINATLY on my list of things to do! smash out the pre-cats = have a happy and long life with your car. got it! s:D :D s:D
I'd check them anyway
if tehy are missing in action chances are they caused your issue
Quote from: "markiii"I'd check them anyway
if they are missing in action chances are they caused your issue
im hoping to get it into to my local toyota dealer today, and get them to look around it. hopefully they will be able to tell from the sound if theres a big prob or not. as its gonna cost me quite a bit i would of thought just to have someone take off the manifold to tell if the pre-cats have gone! s:( :( s:(
3 bolts hold teh manifold bottom to the cat
remove push the cat out pf teh way and look from underneath
from above remove 02 sensors and check via teh holes
Hey guess who is having the exact same problem and has no idea wtf it is... yes.. ME!
makes a fucking anoying drilling sound.. when you put your foot down about 2 inches.. and then it stops when you take it off.. it comes from the top of the engine.. its not the heatshield or anything its defo inside the top end of the engine.. i too am also going to a toyato garage to get it looked at..
Quote from: "Jamie"Hey guess who is having the exact same problem and has no idea wtf it is... yes.. ME!
makes a f*****g anoying drilling sound.. when you put your foot down about 2 inches.. and then it stops when you take it off.. it comes from the top of the engine.. its not the heatshield or anything its defo inside the top end of the engine.. i too am also going to a toyato garage to get it looked at..
Yep me too! When you taking it? You'll have to keep me posted on what they say because its going to be thw weekend before i can get mine in anywhere and would be good if i could get some idea as to the problem....and more importantly the costs s:? :? s:?
log onto spyderchat and search timing chain rattle in the maintenance forum
This will either make you feel better or worse
You got the link? SpyderChat wont serach for me, just keeps throwing a load of SQL errors
m http://spyderchat.com/phpBB2/search.php?mode=results (http://spyderchat.com/phpBB2/search.php?mode=results) m
search 'timing chain rattle'
check 'search all items'
forum = 'care maintenance and troubleshooting'
I'm too computer thick to get it closer than this
Right got it to the toyota dealership yesterday and they had a look round it, took it out for a drive and even got there top mechanic to look at at. after about an hour they scratched there arse's and siad they dont know whats wrong with it, and that it could be the timing chian, they would have to take the engine appart. There was something i ment to say in my previous posts and that was that the car when warmed up is ideling at about 200 rpm! its sat at the little mark near the 0 rpm (you know the one i mean!) could that have something to do with the timing chain? then asked the question is it an import? to which i replyed YES and was quickly told they couldnt work on it, and its impossible to get parts for! Now i hope they where lieing as i may very well need parts in the future! does anyone know where i can get parts for an import from? i may even need an engine at som point where do i get one of them? does it have to be an import engine?
repeat after me
talking
out
of
arse
other than a few minor things like ecu, bumpers e.t.c 99% of teh car is teh same worldwide, you need to find a more enligtened dealer
confirming what markiiiii says.
that is of course, unless toyota set up a completely new production line, using completely new components for all of it.
no wonder toyota are the biggest car makers in the world if they have a different production line for the same car, but a different spec for each national model.
id take it elsewhere.
E
If you say roughly where in the country you are from then somebody on here may be able to suggest an alternative garage.
(I think you said you drove it 400 mls from Scotland but I may be wrong)
whats your location kingmodest, post it up in your profile.
we maybe able to reccomend somewhere better
I thought they werent allowed by law to refuse to work on a Toyota if they are Toyota dealers? I would phone Toyota gb for clarification.
You "i have a Toyota MRS, my local dealer refuses to work on it, why?"
Them "which dealer sir? We will give them a sound spanking! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
For what it's worth, generally speaking, your service as a garage is an 'invitation to purchase'. As a garage, you can chose either to accept or reject your offer.
The argument with Toyota may well work though.
so would i be able (if needed)to drop a uk roadster engine in a mr-s import and off i go! also where would be a good place to buy a new engine (if i need one) from? thanks agian peeps, should have it to a garage soon and get the enige to bits (well take the top off and have a look at the timing chain) i dont think its the tensioner as the noise is still there when the belt is off! anyone any ideas about the ideling issue mentioned in my last post? could that have something to do with the timing? eg. if the belts slack could the ideling rpm drop down to what i described? thanks.. agian, and again and again and so forth! lol. i will have to post some pics of the car somewhere (but where?) you'll love it! if you like em moddified s:D :D s:D
if you use teh j-spec loom and ecu then it should be fine
theres one on ebay for £950 at the mo
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: WHAT! oh crap! i cannot afford that for a while if i need one then! s:( :( s:( boooo!
UPDATE.. We got the oil pan off and took a look, and its the big end! that diesel sound that i was hearing is the fooking big end! i dont yet know if the rod is buggerd, but will find out soon enough! Its a really nice car, ive just bought it and now im gonna have to put more money in! and ive no idea how much! s:cry: :cry: s:cry: i'll post a pic if possible (where do i do it anyway?) its got full top secret2 body kit, carbon fibre bonnet, carbon fibre air intakes, volk alloys (two colour) and Apexi adjustable suspension, finnished off with a custom respray in met orange. its v nice. lol.
Quote from: "sandstrain"For what it's worth, generally speaking, your service as a garage is an 'invitation to purchase'. As a garage, you can chose either to accept or reject your offer.
The argument with Toyota may well work though.
I doubt that very much...I bet their agreement to have a Toyota franchise doesn't allow them to be picky about which Toyota cars they will service, and which they won't s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
true Roger, but they are allowed to refuse to work on imports as their terms only cover UK/EU supplied cars
Quote from: "kingmodest"UPDATE.. We got the oil pan off and took a look, and its the big end! that diesel sound that i was hearing is the fooking big end! i dont yet know if the rod is buggerd, but will find out soon enough! Its a really nice car, ive just bought it and now I'm gonna have to put more money in! and ive no idea how much! s:cry: :cry: s:cry: i'll post a pic if possible (where do i do it anyway?) its got full top secret2 body kit, carbon fibre bonnet, carbon fibre air intakes, volk alloys (two colour) and adjustable suspension, finnished off with a custon respray in met orange. its v nice. lol.
Make sure they check the pre-cats as Markiii said.
Piece of ceramic from disintigrating cat blocks oilway to big end bearing and and it runs!
Or, high oil consumption and level let to get too low.
Make sure they find the cause.
Quote from: "roger"Quote from: "sandstrain"For what it's worth, generally speaking, your service as a garage is an 'invitation to purchase'. As a garage, you can chose either to accept or reject your offer.
The argument with Toyota may well work though.
I doubt that very much...I bet their agreement to have a Toyota franchise doesn't allow them to be picky about which Toyota cars they will service, and which they won't s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
At the end of the day, generally speaking, the seller accepts or rejects the offer from the buyer. This is fundamental in common law. So the Toyota garage can refuse to deal with a customers request. They would of course be liable to get into trouble with Toyota because, as you rightly say, they may be in breach of thier franchise agreement. But I think this is what I meant to say in the first place s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
MAD UPDATE: Right, i may even start a new thread covering all that weve found so far, to help people out who have the dreaded rattle! We thought it was the big end to start off with (after we thought it was timing chain that is!) and took off the oil pan and took out one of the shells (bearings, cylinder 1) and they where worn (fooked i think the described word was. seems it may have been run without oil at somepoint! dont know why that is? but think it was caught earliy!) so we got hold of a GOOD condition second hand one (from a friend) and tried it, the car ran alot quieter, and so the next night we decided to take the oil pan off, and start again we took all the bearings out and mic'd (micrometer, to check for wear and tear) up the crank and big end cylinders 1-3 as we couldnt get at 4! (i think) and it was all within spec! so we left that for the night so we could order some new bearings, and big end bolts, and oil filter while we was at it! the folowing night, (seeing as markii keep telling me to do it! BIG thanks to you mate!) we took out the pre-cats, theres 35,000miles on the car and they where in the same condition as the ones in the tutorial! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: just started to disintergrate, i swear another day running on them and it might of been bye bye engine, you could see the wear on them! in some parts they had even started to dip! SO glad there out! So, the job to day is to put all of the stuff back together! s:) :) s:) the pre-cats have to go back on and the bearings are to go back on. box it all together and ill report my findings back tonight or tomorrow. then depending if it gets fixed or not eg, stops the bloody tapping/knocking sound. i will open a new thread, saying something like "Does your car sound like a rickety diesel? why not look in side and see if this no nonsence practical is any good for you!" LOL.. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
well done on that,
also i recognise your car pic in your avatar, i saw it several times on fleabay, lovely example, speaking of which could you resize it, as when i load the page up i keep thiking your car is going to kill me as it leaps off the screen at me.