I've only had my car a month or so and to cut a long story short, it's fallen victim to the precat problem. It was at my local dealership yesterday for a proper diagnosis and the mechanic said it was the recognised "oval cylinder" problem. The car is unfortunately 7 years and 6 months old, so is not covered by the extended warranty.
I've tried calling Toyota GB and pleading my case, that the car isn't high mileage with 75k on the clock and has a full dealer history. The woman basically gave an outright "no". Does anyone know who it is best to call to try and get some help on this from Toyota. I'm facing a huge bill to fix a manufacturing/design problem with an engine they have built just because the car is a few months too old, despite the reasonable mileage and service history I mentioned.
If Toyota can't help me then I will have to rag the thing until it goes pop to claim on the warranty I have with the car.
I would hope that you are joking when you suggest ragging it until it dies, this could put you and road users in danger s:shock: :shock: s:shock: .
Why can't you claim on the warranty now - surely it covers engine failure?
sorry nothing to do with your engine failure but I can see a Cappuccino in your avatar!
back on subject sorry to hear of another one going the way of the ovalness s:( :( s:(
Liz, yes, I wouldn't really do that. However, the warranty (like most on used cars) is ridiculously specific, and will only cover the car if it experiences a "stoppage of function", and not if you have driven the car under the knowledge that it's got a problem. Eg, I'm ballsed.
Germy; the Cappuccino is my other car (which I'm currently selling). That photo was from the Furball 5000 earlier this year.
TBH, I cant see Toyota changing their minds - they are currently offering a 7 year warranty voluntarily - they have no obligation whatsoever to do this.
They have to draw the line somwehere, because if they make an exception for you, then someone else will expect them to honour it for another couple of months and so on until they are replacing engines in cars that are 10+ years old. This would almost certainly result in the 7 year good-will gesture being withdrawn.
Quote from: "SteveJ"TBH, I cant see Toyota changing their minds - they are currently offering a 7 year warranty voluntarily - they have no obligation whatsoever to do this.
They have to draw the line somwehere, because if they make an exception for you, then someone else will expect them to honour it for another couple of months and so on until they are replacing engines in cars that are 10+ years old. This would almost certainly result in the 7 year good-will gesture being withdrawn.
From my point of view I've bought a car and am facing a very large repair bill because of a design flaw in the engine.
However, I completely understand what you're saying and how it must be for Toyota, and don't think that I will be able to get anywhere with them, but you can't blame me for trying.
Where did you buy it from? if it was from a garage I would go back straight away and let them know as I don't think the car will have just gone overnight. Was it sold to you like this.
TBH I think more and more people are going to be buying cars like this as people will be trading them in as they know that the oil levels are dropping quickly and it will go at some point.
If you bought privately not sure what if any recourse you will have but it's possibly worth a try? small claims court etc?
Good luck.
PS what are the symptoms you have at the moment?
I bought it from a used car dealer (non-Toyota) so I do have that as a further plan of action. When I bought the car last month, it drove beautifully, everything sounded and went exactly as it should. Over the past 10 days or so it's just gone drastically downhill very quickly, oil consumption has suddenly gone up, the engine has been sounding worse and worse like it's battering itself to death, and I have a loss of power, especially at 4k+ (when the VVTi comes in?)
It has been diagnosed as the "oval cylinder" problem by my local dealer and I'm not driving it at the moment, not that I was any more than I absolutely had to before.
Is it possible the problem was lying dormant if the previous owner had only driven the car very gently? I have some mechanical sympathy, let the engine warm up properly before giving it too many revs, never redline engines etc, but I do drive enthusiastically on occasion. That's the only explanation I can think of myself for it coming on so quickly.
Problem was already there, thats why it was traded in.
Go back to the dealer now, explain all and tell him you are rejecting the car as unfit for purpose.
nelix, if I were to do that, what would be the best way to approach it with them, and how would I proceed if they didn't agree to take it back which I expect they would initially?
Gather all the info you can about the precat problems/oval rings.
Ask the toyota garage if they would be willing to put a report in writing for you stating that the fault must have been there when you bought the car- long shot but ask
1. Benice at first.
2. Play a bit harder, murmur about talking to your soliciter friend to see where you stand.
3. Hardball, threaten with trading standards and follow through, personally i would also hang around outside at busy periods with a placarc saying "previous customer who is unhappy, garage refuses to help" or something a little harsher.
Nelix, thank you! I really appreciate the advice.
I have checked out my legal standing and I should have a good chance of getting a refund or repair under the Sale of Goods Act. My local Toyota dealership (RRG Stockport) are behind me too, the service guy I've been talking to about it (who also diagnosed the problem on the car) has been very helpful. He's putting together an estimate for the work required for me to present to the dealer that sold me the car.
I'm going to the dealer to talk it out on Sunday. I'll give them a call tomorrow or Saturday to let them know the situation.
Good luck mate.
I bought my first 2 in May, from on local used car dealer. Cut a long story short pretty much the same problems as you.
I bought it with a warranty. Took it back to the dealers, was pleasent with them. I left the 2 with them, got a courtisy off them. The warranty people took a look at it. I never new about pre cat issues at this time, wasn't a member on here.
After about a month of been vv nice and extremly patient. The dealer told me the conclusion was engine falure and the warranty company was not prepared to replace the engine.
Got a full refund from the dealer. He even admitted the car must've had the problem when he bought it.
Get straight down to the garage and see what they say. I know I was probably vv lucky. Most dealers work on word of mouth, and some of them are pretty decent.
Cheers jonny5 s:) :) s:) It's good to know some people do have an easy (relatively speaking) time getting the car sorted in this situation. Let's hope I have a similar experience!
Hello all, I am very interested in this thread as I have just bought an MR2 Roadie and now have the engine light on. I have had it check by local MOT centre and he told me lambda is likely but looking at the engine I see 2 sensors what must be pre cat and 1 in the pipe which is after cat?
my car is November 2001 60,100 but has only 16 and 20k toyota services could I get the work done on the 7 year warranty then?
darbiz s:? :? s:?
Or do I go down the removal of the pre cat strategy??? I need help s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
You need to find out exactly what the code(s) is first, as it might be something as simple as an O2 sensor needing replacing. Pre-cat death is pretty rare still despite the glut of posts we've seen here recently, so unless you have failure-specific issues with the car (as detailed in the Pre-Cat sticky at the top of this forum) then I wouldn't worry about it yet.
Still, all the more reason to gut your pre-cats now, eh? s;) ;) s;)
Thanks for that fast reply s:) :) s:) I feel a little better now... He did say CO2 to me but I will get it checked again. The gutting of the pre Cats is this just a case of removing the sensorsand plugging the holes with screw heads??? as the price has varied wildly on the forum??? £40 to £150 that is some margin s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Have a read of the sticky, it explains exactly what to do, but suffice it to say it's a bit more work than just taking the O2 sensors out. s;) ;) s;)
Tbh it's an easy enough job to DIY provided you don't mind swearing a bit! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Thanks Ekona s:D :D s:D I can do the swearing no problem... I will up date my profile later on and get some pickies on too...
I'll read on s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "darbiz"my car is November 2001 60,100 but has only 16 and 20k toyota services could I get the work done on the 7 year warranty then?
darbiz s:? :? s:?
I would guess that Toyota would want to see a full dealership service history to stand a chance of getting a new engine on a six year old car. If your not loosing power at higher revs or drinking oil then I wouldn't worry yourself over a dead engine to be honest s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
darbiz, I hope you get your problem sorted out, whatever it is. Keep us updated s:) :) s:)
I finally spoke to the independent dealer I bought the car from today. They were really helpful and said not to worry, they'll help me out and get everything sorted. I'm ringing back tomorrow to speak to the actual guy I bought the car from, so good news so far s:) :) s:)
Glad to hear that the dealer sounds to be doing the right thing - good luck s:) :) s:)
I too have suffered the oval rpiston rings engine failure. Unfortunately the car (which I bought new) is just over 7 years old and has done 116000 miles. I had had in earlier (before the 7 year limit) to the dealer (RRG Salford) and was effectively palmed off. It was only when the engine seemd to be drinking even more oil and i read about the piston ring thing and asked them about this that they conceeded there was an extended warranty but that I was not covered as 1) over 7 years by 2 days and 2/ over 100000 miles. I take the earlier points about seeing it from Toyotas point of view but basically I would expected a car that has been serviced regularly to last more that 116000 miles ( I have a 30 year old vw which has been round the clock and never needed an engine rebuild). Essentially this is a design fault and i feel a bit agrieved about it.
As the warrantly is of no use to me, would people recommend getting the engine rebult or getting a reconditioned engine. I should probably replace the main cat and decat the manifold - do these have to be done in any specific order and could anyone recommend anywhere to get it done - I'm now trying to avoid mainstream Toyota dealers as I feel a bit shafted.
I would also recommend anyone with a MR2 coming up to 7 yeatrs old to measure the oil consumption and if high really push at the dealership about hte extended warranty - they will probably deny any knowledge at first so keep trying.
Sorry about the rant but if anyone has any advice about the best way to preceed and where (eg Silverstone Performance) it would be appreciated
Quote from: "fergusreid12"I take the earlier points about seeing it from Toyotas point of view but basically I would expected a car that has been serviced regularly to last more that 116000 miles ( I have a 30 year old vw which has been round the clock and never needed an engine rebuild). Essentially this is a design fault and i feel a bit agrieved about it.
I know exactly how you feel, but from what I got out of their customer relations team on the phone, if you car is outside the 7 years and the mileage limit (which I thought was 112000 or so for some reason) then they won't do anything to help you out with it.
From the estimate I got from Toyota for the work, getting a reliable independent garage to fit a reconditioned engine would be the cheaper option. Maybe the time for a 2ZZ swap if you're that way inclined (forcefully making every cloud have a silver lining) s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Quote from: "darbiz"my car is November 2001 60,100 but has only 16 and 20k toyota services could I get the work done on the 7 year warranty then?
darbiz s:? :? s:?
I would guess that Toyota would want to see a full dealership service history to stand a chance of getting a new engine on a six year old car. If your not loosing power at higher revs or drinking oil then I wouldn't worry yourself over a dead engine to be honest s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Just a reminder that I got my 40,000 mile, 6 year old engine fixed under the goodwill warranty with only 50% service history - not all of which was done at Toyota.
However, before they would agree to pay for the work I did have to give them the go ahead to start work so they could investigate inside the engine for "signs of damage caused by lack of servicing", the service guy assured me that even the slightest sign of oval pistons and the work would be covered under the warranty. I (and they) was confident enough that it was the piston problem so I gave them the go ahead although it could have cost me a lot if it hadn't been the piston issue s:!: :!: s:!:
Darbiz - until you get the code it's impossible to say but I'd hazard a guess that you have the legendary O2 sensor problem which really is nothing to worry about. Oh, get the pre-cats out, you don't need them and it's much better to do it manually than have them desintegrate by themselves like mine did! Keep checking the oil level and whip it into MrT if it looks to be excessive - they should do a free oil consumption test if you're really concerned.
Jaik - good luck with the dealership, hope everything goes your way.
Fergus - I know how you feel and it sucks. I got lucky in the end but thought I was screwed until I found out about the warranty. Before that I was considering getting a reconditioned engine which would have cost about £900 for a low mileage off an '04 plate (Plus fitting costs which i didn't get round to pricing up). Or go down the 2zz route if you can afford it and the hike in insurance!
Well, I spoke to the dealer and they told me to try the warranty issuer, who have (as I expected) said that it probably wouldn't be covered as it's down to "engine wear and tear" whereas I'm only covered for "sudden failure". I also have to agree to pay for an engine strip-down to confirm the problem in case it's not something that's covered.
Back to the dealer I think!
Just a quick thought so I could be wrong. If the Warranty doesn't cover it because it isn't classed as "Sudden Failure" and you've only had the car a month or so then that obviously means it wasn't in good working order when you bought it. So you should be able to reject it s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?:
One way or the other either the warranty covers it or the dealer has to accept it wasn't fit for sale or whatever the technical term is. You could have a lengthy battle on your hands but don't back down. It's unreasonable to be expected to pay for such repairs when you've only had the car for such a short time - someone's either tried to shaft you already (dealership) or is trying to shaft you now (warranty)...
Stay strong and keep us posted...
Good point, and thanks for the words of support s:) :) s:)
Hey guys, I'm a newbie and just wanted to thank everybody for the fantastic help you have been! I apologize if this is the wrong place for my post -seemed the right thread. BTW lived in Oxford for 4 years, great place.
I'm in CT, USA, have an 01 MR2, bought at 80k. Engine was replaced at 68k due to a "broken bolt". Anyway, having been informed, it was likely the pre-cat + exhaust recycling problem.
I love the car, besides some rainwater that accumulated in the rear boxes, which went away after cleaning the drain behind the plastic side air-inlets (next time I'll snap off the lower plastic spoke of the 3 there..that should keep it clean).
I checked the precats via the O2 sensor inlets (snapped off 1 bolt of the remaining 3 of the heat shield...even after liquied wrench and warming up.. s:( :( s:( ..btw is it OK to just leave the heat shield off and be able to enjoy the manifold's view s:?: :?: s:?: ). They looked absolutely perfect. I get 34 mpg at 65-70 mph highway commute, no oil loss to speak off (yet...). Two O2 sensors (1 pre 1 post) have been replaced thus far.
So, I a ordered an pre-cat-less st steel manifold to replace the original precats on Ebay ($150). This way I can sell the car with both, or swap should unlikely DMV (MOT) issues arise.
BTW I also asked an MR2 outsider yet knowledgable american friend what he thought I should do, here's what he said.
"
I guess you have to ask yourself if you want to keep the car for awhile. If so, it might be worth rectifying (i.e., gutting the pre-cat) if it is a common failure, and contributed to the very early engine failure you experienced. From what I've read, the mod seems straightforward.
But as you indicated, working on this area of an engine, the exhaust header, etc., can be a pain in the ass because the heat cooks all of the fittings, gaskets, nuts and bolts, sometimes making them more difficult to remove or causing them to break when stressed. I can remember back when I was in high school, I took the exhaust manifold off my Triumph so I could pull the cylinder head for repair. The manifold came off only after a couple of the retaining bolts sheared their heads: the remaining shanks of the bolts were frozen to the head, likely due to heat. Of course this was an old English car and probably there was no anti-seize compound used when the bolts were originally installed. However, more recently I can remember much frustration and cursing on my part while it took an inordinately long amount of time to remove a stuck (even with anti-seize lubricant) O2 sensor from the cat on my Audi.
As to whether or not you should do it yourself depends, I'd say, on how comfortable you are at turning a wrench on your car. The $130 will buy you (cool) tools that you can use again; But I would not buy this stuff if I weren't comfortable doing maintenance and repairs myself. If you are comfortable with it, I'd say do it. In theory, the procedure for pulling the header is straightforward, but caveats may apply. Aside from the baking effect of the heat, space may be tight. I don't know how an MR2 engine compares to German motors in this regard.
But if you are not surely comfortable, I'd recommend you find a shop that'll do it. But many shops might shy away from this as you'd be asking them to alter the emission control system, which might be illegal for a shop in CT to do (but I don't know for sure).
Also, I could be wrong on this, but I have a hunch that gutting the pre-cats will alter the emission levels even when the engine is warm. It would seem that they would function as catalysts regardless of engine temperature, as the exhaust always flows through the pre-cats. I don't know how sensitive CT's emissions standards are, but one might not be able to get away with this in California where emissions are held to very strict limits.
"
Useful reply I thought. So I'm going ahead and swap the precats for something shiny s:D :D s:D
Best, and keep up the good work.
Welcome jv. 3 or 4 of us around the Oxford area. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Whilst your mate is right to question the emissions, I reckon all I can do is confirm what you already seem to have picked up, that the pre-cats are only there for start up, and in no way affect UK requirements.
Quote from: "jverhagen"BTW lived in Oxford for 4 years, great place.
I'm in CT, USA, have an 01 MR2, bought at 80k.
So if i'm reading this correctly and you are now in California with your car then you may need to keep the precats in as this one of the states with strict emissions laws.
Worth checking with our American cousins on SpyderChat (http://www.spyderchat.com)
HTH
Steve
Thanks guys!
Glad to hear the main cat will suffice during 99% of my trips..environment and all. Yet it's already a very fuel-efficient car compared to the monsters I see on the roads here (10-15 mpg SUVs etc). Somehow I hope the gassprices double here to reach UK levels.
I don't know what the CA tests comprise of, but here in CT you drive it warm into a commercial shop who than test it s:P :P s:P
BTW: it appears my Mazda 626 also has a precat near the engine and also does the exhaust recycling. Yet, based on 626.net there are no issues with failing engines (instead, it's poor automatic transmissions -mine is OK). Would this imply that it's kind of this "setup" that allows the failure, yet that the MR2s have particularly "fragile" precats s:?: :?: s:?: How common is this precat-recylcing setup across the board?
Quote from: "Jigwar"So if i'm reading this correctly and you are now in California with your car
Steve
Doh. Usual fingers working before brain in gear.
Okay here's the latest...
I spoke to the dealer who sold me the car today and explained the situation with the warranty company. I said something along the lines of if it's not covered by the warranty, then you'll need to get it sorted out for me. They're being very nice about it so far and said they'd be able to get it sorted. I have emailed over scanned copies of Toyota's report on the problem and the estimate they gave me for the repair work required. I made sure the guy preparing the estimate included everything that would be done were it under warranty; if it's getting repaired then it needs to be done properly.
The salesman I've been speaking to, who sold me the car, is going to talk to his manager about the case along with the documents I've emailed over to him and call me back tomorrow. At least I'm getting somewhere now.
Sounds like you bought from a dealership that values his reputation at more than £2.5k.
Good work so far...
Looks that way yep s:) :) s:) The guy is speaking to his manager today and calling me back; they've got a couple of hours left to get back to me today like they said they would.
The garage are coming with a recovery truck to pick up the car today and are doing the repairs. I didn't even have to raise my voice at them and they offered to cover it all, so a big success!
Thanks for everyone's advice and support!
Result! Make sure they replace the main cat as well or the new engine will be toast as well.
Quote from: "nelix"Result! Make sure they replace the main cat as well or the new engine will be toast as well.
+1
Make sure you get the work checked out though to be sure it's done properly.
I'll be doing both of those!
Nice 1 Jaik.
Glad everythings getting sorted for you. Hopefully you'll be up and running pretty soon.
I had a phonecall from my salesman today. They've stripped the engine down, confirmed the problem is what Toyota said and started getting the parts replaced (all work as advised by Toyota in their quote).
Great news, but his manager wants me to pay a third towards the £3000 it is costing them as their "specialists" say the problem is due to "neglect". I have said I'm not happy with this and am waiting to speak to them againt tomorrow.
If I don't agree to pay the £1000 they want and they kick up a fuss, what is my legal standpoint? I've not agreed to pay anything (nor do I think I should) and they have started the work.
You've not had it very long, tell them they either fix it as per the SOGA or you reject the car under the same Act. Simple as.
there is no way neglect can be a factor in teh time you've had it.
Thanks guys, those were my thoughts. The next step will be to just stand my ground on not paying anything towards the repairs and see what they say I suppose.
Well, I've stood firm on not paying anything towards the repairs. When I told the salesman that I wouldn't be paying anything, he said he'd speak to his manager and get back to me. He didn't get back to me for a couple of days, so I rang them up just now and we're basically in the same situation.
I've told him I'm going to be looking at exactly where I stand legally and getting back to them. More hassle than I need at the moment but what can you do?
If they're going to be like that, then reject the car. Take it back to them, give them the keys, ask for a bit of paper that says they're not going to perform the work on the engine, and then leave. If they refuse to give you your money back, then start legal proceedings to reclaim it.
They've already got the car and have done most of the work (which was started before they even mentioned me paying a contribution towards the costs).
I've read up all I can find on the SOGA and related bits and pieces (eg. Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) so I know what my rights are. I'm waiting for the manager to call me back so I can speak with him directly rather than fannying around going through the salesman.
I'll have a proper discussion with him and see if I can get anywhere and if not, like you say Ekona, it's legal time s:( :( s:(
On a side note, their company logo is in complete breach of copyright of a large nationwide retailer. It's a complete rip-off of one of their sub-brands. I'm not going to mention that for the moment, but if they continue to dig their heels in, I may tip off the retailer in question.
Job done then: Write them a letter saying you're rejecting the car as is your statutory right, and give them 14 days to give you your money back.
Oh, and you can't let that last line go without giving details! Pics! Examples! Hints! s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "Ekona"Oh, and you can't let that last line go without giving details! Pics! Examples! Hints! s:D :D s:D
I'll drop you a PM, don't really want to post it publicly yet s;) ;) s;)
Well, they're REALLY digging their heels in and it looks like I'm going to end up paying them £1000 towards the repairs. Despite it going against the grain, it's going to be cheaper than the legal fees to fight my case, which is what it's come to. I don't have the money, the time or low-enough blood pressure to have a legal battle on my hands.
I'll be sure to affect their business as much as I can by letting people know the situation they've put me in. So everyone, DO NOT give any business to Boss Performance of Radcliffe, Manchester.
If I do give in and pay them the money, is it worth letting Trading Standards know the situation or is that a waste of time?
I'd let them know know tbh, and see if they can lever some pressure on them.
Agreed, let Trading Standards know now, before you pay or agree to pay any money. It certainly isn't your fault so don't pay.
A legal battle can be stressful but that's what people like the manager of the garage and the warranty companies depend on so they can take advantage of people like us. I bought mine private with no warranty, that was the risk I took and got away fortunately. As they've already accepted that the problem is related to the known piston issue then they've acknowledged that the car was faulty when you bought it, you have a good case.
Hold in there... it'll be worth it.
Absolutely with the others here - contact trading standards now, they may even offer good advice.
Trading standards can shake up businesses who behave like this as even if they take no immediate action - the business is marked and monitored from then onwards. I've found when I involved them in a case for me, the business became much more amenable to negotiation straight away. They were p'd off that I did what I did, but i'm not one to be polite and be rolled over when they're taking money off me and not delivering what I paid for in the first place.
Get TS into the game and be firm with the manager - or even owner of the business (going to the owner directly really shakes them up), it doesn't necessarily mean a legal case, that's what TS are there for in these events. Don't show your anger, just leave as an underlying threat, they're intimidating you - play the same card yourself.
Good luck.
Also if you used credit of any kind in the purchase, then the lender may be able to advise, but i'd say that is a last resort.