As Tom has requested a build thread to keep him up to date i thought we may as well put it in here for anyone else who is interested.
Tom's car suffered at the hands of the pre-facelift engine gremlins and has decided to go for a 1MZ V6 to up the power levels into something pretty special. So we have taken his car and started to strip everything that has to come out. The metal work has been cut and the new strengthening rear brace is starting to build in place.
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00085Copy.jpg)
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00084Copy.jpg)
Once all the metal work is finished the engine bay will be cleaned, primed and given a new coat of 202 to make it look the part.
Here's the engine of choice, fresh out of the Camry, awaiting a degrease, strip down and then paint and re-assembly.
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00087Copy.jpg)
It's a 1MZ-FE so should be 200bhp and 200lb/ft
Exhaust wise there's an F355 backbox for us to fit so it will sound the part s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Should hopefully be quite a quick build this one and i'll update as we go along.
Another Roadster turns to the dark side! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Hope it all goes smoothly Olie. Should sound lush with the Fezza box! s8) 8) s8)
what is the tuning potential of that engine?
I dont want to be a kill joy, but 200 BHP from a V6 sounds a bit low- may as well just 2ZZ it...although im sure you will enjoy the torque and sound
cant you get a more powerful engine in there??
You probably need to drive one to appreciate it to be honest. Its not just about headline horsepower figures, torque and the vast even spread of it with the V6 is where it is special. Yes you can get 190 bhp from a 2zz, but not much more torque than the stock 1zz, and there is always the sound of the 6 as well.
Tuning, yes, you can get more, superchargers are a possibility some time soon, but the V6 as it stands does a brilliant job.
Not the very fastest out there, some turbos are ultimately quicker, but what it does, it does with style.
Some people don't get it, fine by me. s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I've tried various Roadsters from stock to very modded and the V6 is my favourite incarnation.
This one will be a cracker. ( lets not start the old chestnut of 2zz vs turbo vs V6 on this build thread. s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Man, some bits looking a bit rustier than I would have hoped dude. Take it nothing's rotted through?
Brilliant to see some pics Olie, thanks a lot.
Quote from: "freak_in_cage"what is the tuning potential of that engine?
I dont want to be a kill joy, but 200 BHP from a V6 sounds a bit low- may as well just 2ZZ it...although Im sure you will enjoy the torque and sound
cant you get a more powerful engine in there??
The V6 in a Roadster is a complete joy to drive. The sound, the power delivery, beautiful. It's not something to judge purely on numbers.
2zz and V6 offer two very different drives, both work equally as nicely in the Roadster in their own way.
And THAT'S coming from a 3SGTE Roadster owner...
s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
2zz is 6k plus response. 190bhp max
1MZ is 2.5k plus response. 190bhp minimum
Whatever floats yer boat. Me? I like instant response and balance. Nothing beats hanging your arse out on demand. Nothing.
Tom, all just surface flakes, nowt worse than a mk2 that's been sat for 2 weeks. All will be glossy and solid soon. s:D :D s:D
Oh yes and a 320bhp 2GR is available but at £4k parts list.
TBH, the 1MZ is not the best route for future upgrading...the pistons/rings/rods are not made for boost, so you could only do a "mild" FI setup, without uprating said components.....hardly worth the effort....?
However, 200hp/200torques compared with the very modest 1ZZ stock outputs is a HUGE difference...and those figures are real EASY, too....
As Ollie says, the 1MZ strolls to 200hp, whereas the 2ZZ only just gets towards it at full chat....! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Now a 2GR.......!? s8) 8) s8)
Quite tempting, I have to say...... s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "Dyn-Evo"TBH, the 1MZ is not the best route for future upgrading...the pistons/rings/rods are not made for boost, so you could only do a "mild" FI setup, without uprating said components.....hardly worth the effort....?
Don't know if i would quite say that. 300/350bhp is about the limit for a standard 1MZ engine so plenty scope for a suitably sized Eaton SC. 300bhp per tonne is a nice figure to be playing with.
Yes if you want silly boost, there are other options. Either a fully built engine or start with a GE engine. But the weight of the 1MZ is it's biggest plus point. Car feels just like it did with the 1zz in there, you hardly notice until you start flexing your right toe.
These may be famous last words but isn't 200bhp/200lb/ft a fairly massive increase from stock already?
I had enough fun with 138bhp at my disposal, and the difference in cost wasn't too much higher than a 1zz replacement since the swap included stuff like the clutch swapped out too, and the exhaust/intake/shifter housing will all be replaced meaning the sale of those bits offsets the cost.
I don't want to get into big brake conversions, reliability risks with the 1mz's internals, big heavy wheels & tyres to handle silly power. At that stage I'd probably rather move on to Lotus/VX220 territory to be honest. Let's see how I get on with 'stock' 1MZ power and keep it as reliable as possible, I say .
Suppose that depends on what your definition of "mild" FI is....?
To me, mild is around 4-5psi?
To get 350hp out of a 1MZ, you're gonna be running 12-14psi especially out of an Eaton: maybe a twin-screw would be better, but you're gonna be needing decent intercooling.......
Bang for buck, for 300+ horses, I'd go 2GR every time...!
......then SC that..!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Tom: you won't be disappointed with the 1MZ, though...I guarantee that...! s:D :D s:D
fair enough if the torque and sound are big factors for you s:D :D s:D
how much heavier is the V6 that the 1zz? perhaps more importantly, how will the weight be distributed, and how does this affect its handling characteristics?
with its torque it should make the 6th gear a very useable gear too!
how many hours does it take to convert the roadster to a V6? compared to Turboing a 1zz and swapping for a 2zz?
i do like the idea of a very gentle turbo on a V6 so you can add an extra 40 BHP or so.......
unless perhaps, subjective as this is, the mr2s sweet spot is at 200?
can;t use teh 6 speed with teh V6
Quote from: "markiii"can;t use the 6 speed with the V6
We can you know, just not that one! EA62 will be along shortly for the gear freaks.
Normally takes 3/4weeks for a full swap but that includes stripping down and rebuilding the engine, all the bay prep work, making the custom parts etc etc.
Haven't had it weighed yet but will hopefully get it done soon. Handling characteristics really don't change with the 1MZ, it's a great package.
Quote from: "markiii"can;t use the 6 speed with the V6
pity.......
Quote from: "OlberJ"Quote from: "markiii"can;t use the 6 speed with the V6
We can you know, just not that one! EA62 will be along shortly for the gear freaks.
thats more like it s:D :D s:D A nice over drive gear with the torque of the V6 will mean lazy overtaking is possible s:D :D s:D
Lazy overtaking is already very, very possible.
70-120mph (closed circuit) is wayyyyyy to easy. s:D :D s:D
Yeh...don't understimate the torque of these engines (comparatively speaking).......
I basically drove all the way from Durham to Worthing in 5th gear........I kid you not!
Ok..once you get on the A1M/M1, which is about 1 mile from Woodsport, then its motorway all the way home......
But what Ollie says is true..! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Dyn-Evo, what wheels/tyres are you running? I'm currently on stock pre-facelift but have hopefully arranged to purchase a facelift set of wheels now, i'm hoping larger tread will keep the car stable with the extra torque going to the back wheels.
BK Racing 299's, 15" front / 16" rears, currently, with stock tyre stagger, but you have PM! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ace , Olie has kindly picked up a facelift set of wheels from a club
member more local to him. I'll probably get them refurbished and
then see about tyres. Toyo R1R? Seem quite expensive. I actually really like T1Rs with 1zz power but
will probably need something a bit more serious now.
It's a V6 not a Rocket Ship s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I think T1R's will be fine unless your planning on tracking it a lot. I always ran T1R's on my turbo '2 and that was making similar BHP. If your looking for something different the Kumho Ecsta KU31 XL is well thought of as a fast road tyre on vx220.org. And they are nicely priced too
Phil
Quote from: "Kool PT"Ace , Olie has kindly picked up a facelift set of wheels from a club
member more local to him. I'll probably get them refurbished and
then see about tyres. Toyo R1R? Seem quite expensive. I actually really like T1Rs with 1zz power but
will probably need something a bit more serious now.
Quote from: "evileye_xc"It's a V6 not a Rocket Ship s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I think T1R's will be fine unless your planning on tracking it a lot. I always ran T1R's on my turbo '2 and that was making similar BHP. If your looking for something different the Kumho Ecsta KU31 XL is well thought of as a fast road tyre on vx220.org. And they are nicely priced too
Phil
lol you're right, it's just going to be a big leap in performance since the stock 2 was the most powerful thing I've owned prior to this, and the gearbox to begin with will lack LSD. Thanks for the recommendation on the Kumhos, I'll check them out.
With the extra weight of the V6 possibly something with a stiffer sidewall? I had T1's on the turbo, lasted well, did two track days and they held up quite well. Still I won't be going back, going F1 asymmetric' s.
Quote from: "Ilogik"With the extra weight of the V6 possibly something with a stiffer sidewall? I had T1's on the turbo, lasted well, did two track days and they held up quite well. Still I won't be going back, going F1 asymmetric' s.
what do you mean by T1's?
T1S or T1R?
I'm not going to get down to Hamilton in time to pick up the car before this weekend when i'm off on holiday for a fortnight so Olie's hopefully going to be able to put a few miles on it and check for probs.
Gutted that I won't get to drive it for nearly 3 more weeks, but when I do it will be so sweet.
Worth noting to anyone following the thread is that the TRD 5 Speed Quick-Shifter, PPE cold air intake and Hayward & Scott twin exit exhaust will all be up for sale.
It's probably for the best Tom, means we can get it nicely bedded in. Also the wait means the 1st drive will be all the sweeter!
I will have pics and progress report for you 2moro night s:D :D s:D
ace! yeah, I couldn't have driven it in italy anyway (or...could I? s:) :) s:) nahhh) so it's not like i'll have to put up with another 2 weeks of driving round in 20+ degrees aberdeen in a f*cking hyundai hathback s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "OlberJ"(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00084Copy.jpg)
Just a quick question on the bar shown in the above photo. Is that bar installed or is it just resting there for photographic purposes? The reason I ask is because as shown it's not connected to anything structural on the chassis, and given that the box section linking the strut towers has been removed there needs to be something added to put the strength back in.
Hi Patrick,
not to worry, there is still more box section to be added which will tie in the struts, that's just the initial placement for the engine lid catch.
Cheers,
Olie
Quote from: "OlberJ"not to worry, there is still more box section to be added which will tie in the struts, that's just the initial placement for the engine lid catch.
Excellent, it makes more sense when you see what the finished product will look like:
(http://www.olbermotive.com/resources/BBJ1.jpg)
s:D :D s:D
Quite! While we are on the subject, i see in your original one you re-used the original cut-out box section and moved it back partially. Was that strengthened somehow on your own VM180 build or is that the reason you mentioned it here? On my own i considered re-using the original removed part but where it would have been rewelded it didn't feel very solid and there was too much of a gap.
This time it's slightly different again but allows the use of the standard catch et al (Cheers Paul!)
This is now seam sealed and has the lid catch attached :
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00107800x600.jpg)
Access panel cut and new angle frame has been built and cover plate added :
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00109800x600.jpg)
And the heart of the matter, all built back up. The cam covers etc are just placed on for the minute to keep any crap out, they will be fully detailed in Tom's colour scheme of choice. Silver inlet, red cam covers and red and black details. (Excuse the mess in the background, i'm in the process of moving everything about too)
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00108800x600.jpg)
2moro will consist of lots of painting parts. Should have the engine ready to go by the evening. Engine bay will be getting a fresh new coat of 202 black as the standard engine bay paint is piss thin!
As soon as the gearbox arrives that will be painted up, attached and we can get the thing hung. Plumb it, wire it and fit an exhaust, easy as that. s:D :D s:D
Hi Ollie,
Quote from: "OlberJ"Quite! While we are on the subject, i see in your original one you re-used the original cut-out box section and moved it back partially. Was that strengthened somehow on your own VM180 build or is that the reason you mentioned it here? On my own i considered re-using the original removed part but where it would have been rewelded it didn't feel very solid and there was too much of a gap.
Structurally it's fine. The only issue with re-using the original section is the extra time it takes to do it properly, and hence the extra cost. For the VM180 (and the Ferrari replicas we did afterwards) the OE look has been a requirement and so customers have been willing to pay the extra:
(http://www.roguemotorsport.com/images/misc/1mzinstall/06.jpg)
(http://www.roguemotorsport.com/images/misc/dna3sixty/engravedplenum.jpg)
For track and race cars where form is less important than function we use two sections of T45 roll cage tubing:
(http://www.roguemotorsport.com/images/misc/3srbeams.jpg)
This is a much simpler and cost effective solution. We don't need to worry about fitting the engine bay catch either since the lid is secured by bonnet pins.
olie a couple of questions, does the stock ecu from the camry expect 'super' or regular unleaded?
another one, how high does the 1mz rev to and is any adjustment needed for the rev meter?
cheers dude
Apologies for not updating the thread. Things have dragged in a fair bit, unfortunately been waiting for some parts which is holding things up.
The engine is all built up and looking spangly :
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC001161024x768.jpg)
Gearbox too :
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC001381024x768.jpg)
As soon as the clutch arrives (has to be special ordered from manufacturer as it's a hybrid) then the lot can go in the waiting bay and we can get this on the road!
Tom, the car runs fine on unleaded, it's a UK car the engine came from. You get better mileage from the Super unleaded but don't worry about being caught short.
Standard the engine revs to 6,600rpm. Which doesn't sound a lot on paper but does when it's right behind your head.
The rev counter works exactly as it should, the reason for this is that the dash runs on can bus, which is fed from the 1zz ECU, this stays with the conversion. We feed the V6 rev signal to the 1zz ECU and this feeds it to the dash so it reads 100% bob on. Unlike the Mk1/2 tacho boards which need modifying.
Hopefully get the final parts in to us in the next few days and progress will begin again in earnest.
Little update.
Decided today that the clearance from radiator to firewall was just too tight so rather than risk vibration transfer and knocking we dropped the engine back out and relieved the firewall a touch more. You need to get a good balance between clearance and the storage bins still being able to fit so it's always a little trial and error.
Engine is now back in for the last time. Couple of bits to arrive and we can get this one done and dusted. Poor Tom has been itching to drive this but the wait will be worth it.
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC001611024x768.jpg)
Fun and games with the MOT test man and engine swap testing at the minute. Should be sorted on Monday now though.
Quick shot of the twins :
(http://i477.photobucket.com/albums/rr136/f426young/Toms%20Mr2%20V6/DSC00183.jpg)
and a little vid of how she sounds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPMz51Q0XnQ
Do we have any update on this build, does Tom have his car back and if so any comments, how is it running.
**EDIT** No I don't, it is a similar one!
Hi, I now own this MR2.
Can anyone tell from the engine pics, what type of A/C compressor would fit. I'm told that the Camry has a few types.
I'm guessing you have a fair bit of work ahead of you. Glad its going to be rescued though. The Roadster one should fit with a bit of fettling to the mount bracket.
Quote from: "loadswine"I'm guessing you have a fair bit of work ahead of you
So far I have fitted new BC Coilovers, drop links, and am looking around for all 4 calipers and braided hoses. I want the AC working, which looks to be complete with the exception of the compressor, and the 2 hoses that should connect to it (been cut off). Other than that, there isn't much that looks like it requires attention.
Quote from: "loadswine"The Roadster one should fit with a bit of fettling to the mount bracket.
Fettling is something I'm competent at!
If you want a roady ac I got one with an old engine buy years ago that been kicking about for ages that your more than welcome to collect and have if you want it.