i have the chance of gettin a hold of the apexi power FC system
what good does this do if any?
does this increase my power?
cheers
possibly, depends on who's tuning it.
also depends on your mods.
bear in mind that as it replaces the ecu your odbII port will no longer work which means any warranty stuff will liekly be voided on teh engine.
ive got a apexi power intake kit
if my warranty will be void i think i'll just leave it
does it add any more power at all?
Quote from: "aarongr"does it add any more power at all?
If you get it dyno tuned by someone who a) knows how to tune a modern EFI car, and b) knows how to work the A'pexi gear then yes, you should yield more or less the same results as using any mappable ECU (Unichip, Dastek etc) on a fairly basic engine - IMHO the extra options of going with a full aftermarket ECU only come into play if you're turbocharging and/or radically altering the engine (bore/stroke, cams etc).
Trying to remember.. but doesn't the PowerFC need a 'Commander' module to fully program it?
im not sure thers on e sellin on e bay for £300 quid
i wasnt sure what good it would have done
it can add power Martin got 22bhp with a unichip and similar mods to yours.
the problem with a complete replacement is that while a dealer won't notice a piggyback, they will find it a little strange that your diagnostics port doesn't work :-) :-) :-)
It is easy to swap it out if you have to take the car in for service. All connectors are the same. If you want to check OBDII codes you can swap them. Unike a piggyback, there are no wiring changes. You can either use the FC Commander or the FC Datalogit to program.
FC Datalogit also gives you the ability to download/upload entire maps (to/from Power FC and to/from computer/internet), but requires a laptop in the car to do that. I suppose you could sit in your garage and program it with a desktop PC, but that would not work for datalogging as you drive. The FC Datalogit connects to a serial port (there may also be a USB version... I forget). There is a guy on SpyderChat (where I am mostly) with the username Kingspyder who has this setup with his turbo. The Datalogit is from a New Zealand company. They reverse-engineered a Power Excel or some such thing.
I have the Power FC with Commander and have not really tuned it. All I did was adjust the timing across the board for US 93 octane gas vs Japanese 100 octane (subtracting 3 degrees for all RPMs and loads). Well, I also changed my idle speed and rev limit.
I really can't say how much an improvement it is (my car is NA with intake, header, exhaust mods), but I am satisfied. Guessing: 8-10HP. Don't quote me, obviously. Just a guess.
Note: Power FC does not work with SMT. SMT requires a different ECM/ECU.
"This is the only real replacement ecu option for these cars."
So NOT true s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Aaron, also remember that you need to buy the Commander or Datalogit to be able to make it work with UK gas without knocking. The stock settings will most likely cause knock, so might not be a good idea to just plug it in.
Quote from: "Tem"Aaron, also remember...
Damn it's confusing with two Aaron's in the same thread s:D :D s:D
I've recently installed a wideband O2 sensor ( PLX device ) in my MR2 with PPE Header,PPE cat,PPEintake,TPS mufller and Power FC and Commander. I use Shell V-Power ( Optimax in England 99 RON) and i can say there is a lot of detonation with stock ing map and the inj maps are very,very rich. As Beanie said, it's necessary to take off until 3-4 degree of advance between 3200-6800 revs. With Power-FC it is possible to disable cloosed-loop operation so that long-term adjustment don't alter W.O.T mixture. Even though that, i am reading A/F ratio between 13-13.5 at part throttle and 10.5-11.00 at W.O.T with stock PFC maps and stock intake and 13.5/14 and 12.5/13 respectively with CAI intake. I don't know how i could change the basic maps that are hidden. Is it necessary to buy NZ-Logit software? Can i reduce injection values connected with air-flow measures?
Quote from: "aarongr"ive got a apexi power intake kit
if my warranty will be void i think i'll just leave it
does it add any more power at all?
your warranty is already void as far as the engine goes mate. Mr.T does not support a warranty on an engine with the Apexi intake fitted! s:x :x s:x
Quote from: "Maurizio"I don't know how i could change the basic maps that are hidden. Is it necessary to buy NZ-Logit software? Can i reduce injection values connected with air-flow measures?
I have
heard that you can change the base maps using the Datalogit... and this is the
only way you can. Send them email and verify.
I need to modify my airflow settings. There are around 6 airflow values (I think in Volts) and they are all preset to 100%. Kingspyder (on SC) told me recently that you can change these if you have a CAI. My car is running very rich at WOT. There is no telling what I'll get if I can get the A/F ratio right. My gut tells me there is more power to be had through tuning.
There are injector maps and even a VVT-i map, but I really don't know what to change in them. Someone said to leave the VVT-i map alone. I'll pretty much have to get a Datalogit to satisfy the inner nerd.
At part throttle A/F ratio is rich ( 13.5,13.8 ). I have reduced AirFlow % to 95% on all 6 instead of 100%. At WOT also is rich ( until A/F ratio 12). It is necessary to lean inj maps from 5000 to 6800 of a 1% point. Remember i have PPE header and intake...
What value should my O2 sensors read at WOT to indicate ideal A/F ratio? This is on the "etc" menu, sensor check (a number between .00 and .99 is the range I think).
Quote from: "Beanie"What value should my O2 sensors read at what to indicate ideal A/F ratio? This is on the "etc" menu, sensor check (a number between .00 and .99 is the range I think).
Under ETC menu, go to O2 volt readings. Indeed it's impossible to calibrate accurately A/F values with them . See these two diagrams :
http://www.plxdevices.com/M-Series_logging_productinfo.htm
When your narrowband O2 sensor read 0.92 volt, A/F ratio may be all values from 14:1 to 10:1 while the target is to reach 13:1-13.5:1 at W.O.T. that is possible only with a wideband sensor. However, if you disable cloosed loop in Function select under ETC menu, you can begin to adjust A/F ratio at light and part throttle playing with airflow %. The values should be about 0.5 v (=A/F 14.7) as near as possible.
Read this article, it's interesting: http://www.hondata.com/techwidebandtuning.html
Quote from: "Beanie"What value should my O2 sensors read at what to indicate ideal A/F ratio? This is on the "etc" menu, sensor check (a number between .00 and .99 is the range I think).
Well the reading your getting is a voltage, i assume the FC isn't altering these to a different reading so your looking for a min of 0.48 volts for Stoich, or 14.7 parts of air to 1 part of fuel. This is the ratio for the optimum burning of air and fuel, so any lower is lean, more is rich.
A table of voltages that relate to amount of air to fuel is
0.1 = 17.1
0.2 = 16.5
0.3 = 16.1
0.4 = 15.4
0.5 = 14.9
0.6 = 14.4
0.7 = 13.8
0.8 = 13.2
0.9 = 12.7
0.985 = 12.1
On a forced induction car on WOT the O2 should be about 0.88v so on a NA anywhere between 0.48v and 0.88 should be your range of testing.
Quote from: "kanujunkie"your warranty is already void as far as the engine goes mate. Mr.T does not support a warranty on an engine with the Apexi intake fitted! s:x :x s:x
Really?; I'm not aware of any engine warranty claim having been refused on the grounds of an Apexi (or any other) intake. On the contrary, I know at least one member who's had an engine replaced with an aftermarket intake fitted...
Quote from: "Maurizio"I've recently installed a wideband O2 sensor ( PLX device ) in my MR2 with PPE Header,PPE cat,PPEintake,TPS mufller and Power FC and Commander. I use Shell V-Power ( Optimax in England 99 RON) and i can say there is a lot of detonation with stock ing map and the inj maps are very,very rich. As Beanie said, it's necessary to take off until 3-4 degree of advance between 3200-6800 revs. With Power-FC it is possible to disable cloosed-loop operation so that long-term adjustment don't alter W.O.T mixture. Even though that, i am reading A/F ratio between 13-13.5 at part throttle and 10.5-11.00 at W.O.T with stock PFC maps and stock intake and 13.5/14 and 12.5/13 respectively with CAI intake. I don't know how i could change the basic maps that are hidden. Is it necessary to buy NZ-Logit software? Can i reduce injection values connected with air-flow measures?
Maurizio.
You can only change the base map with the Datalogit but you can adjust fuel with the inj map. I think that on the stock 1ZZ the inj map is enough to adjust the fuel. You can also adjust using the airflow setting but doing so will adjust all the map. I adjusts according to the AF voltage that is basically how much you open the throttle.
As you can see the PPE cai is working well compared to the stock airbox since you are getting more close to a good mixture than with the stock airbox s:) :) s:)
PS. Keep the 02 feedback on when you finish tuning s;) ;) s;)
I have modified all airFlow settings decreasing a 4% (96%vs 100%). Even though PFC stock maps are too rich from line 2 to 7 of load for all columns of revs. I have decreased values ( i.e. 99.2 vs 100 ). Now i'm jet rich at W.O.T ( 12.5-12.7) but i think to leave these values for now and part throttle readings are good also with closed loop disabled.
Ciao Maurizio
PS per CIN Sto ancora aspettando che il meccanico mi procuri gli uniball per la swaybar. Appena li ho te li mando. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Quote from: "pmdye"Quote from: "kanujunkie"your warranty is already void as far as the engine goes mate. Mr.T does not support a warranty on an engine with the Apexi intake fitted! s:x :x s:x
Really?; I'm not aware of any engine warranty claim having been refused on the grounds of an Apexi (or any other) intake. On the contrary, I know at least one member who's had an engine replaced with an aftermarket intake fitted...
Yeah i've spoke to my dealer about my A'pexi CAI and they have no problem with it, infact they were quite interested in it! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Big up to Hills of bishop's stortford Aaaaiiiii! (Ali-G impression s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
I am also interested in an A'pexi FC but where would do a good job of tuning it and getting into the 22bhp increase zone?!
Great information, guys. I'll have to experiment some. Too bad wideband O2 sensors and displays are so expensive.
Quote from: "Beanie"Great information, guys. I'll have to experiment some. Too bad wideband O2 sensors and displays are so expensive.
Less then a lighter flywheel, but more helpful s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "aarongr"i have the chance of gettin a hold of the apexi power FC system
what good does this do if any?
does this increase my power?
cheers
it changes ur timing, fuel map with more aggresive settings and it's fully programable. bare in mind if u get it from japan then u will have to readjust/retune all the timing parameters otherwise use 105RON fuel.
if tuned properly it will definitely increase ur hp numbers. good luck. s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "POLISI"if u get it from japan then u will have to readjust/retune all the timing parameters otherwise use 105RON fuel
They are all from Japan s;) ;) s;)
Doesn't really matter if a UK dealer buys is from Japan and you buy from UK. They basic values always seem to be for Japanese high octane fuel.
The only exception (that I know of) is w www.monkeywrenchracing.com (http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com) w They can atcually preprogram it for you.
yes Tem, thats what i mean.. s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "POLISI"yes Tem, thats what i mean.. s:) :) s:)
Ah, ok s8) 8) s8)
Is no one happy with the 2, naked the way she was born without the go faster stuff. Yes, ive got a induction kit new plugs etc but come on is it worth it for 20 - 25bhp. MMMM anyway where can I get a BIG TURBO. LOL
I am -- weeeeell, maybe I'll have lowering springs and a TTE zorst on the next one, but outside of that the car has more talent than I do, so I'm happy. (I'll probably get thrown out of the club now and have to start knitting or trainspotting or something s:? :? s:? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
maurizio, do you have a printout of your settings?
A comparison table between stock and altered would be great.
Anybody else has the mapping in paper?
be patient! I have to copy values from PFC maps on Excel sheets. Send me your email address.
Maurizio, thank you for the email!!!
It's looks very interesting.
The only problem is that my terminology is not that good!
What is WOT?
What is Knock (for an engine)?
Also the L01-L20, what is it?
I undestand RPMs on top.
I'm trying to get into the tables philosophy. How it works.
"What is WOT?"
Wide Open Throttle (when you floor the pedal)
"What is Knock (for an engine)?"
Knock is baaaad, m'kay? It kills your engine, here's the first hit from Google:
m http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/detonation/detonation.html (http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/detonation/detonation.html) m
"Also the L01-L20, what is it?"
It's load...depending on throttle position, speed (=drag), uphill/downhill, accelerating/cruising/decelerating.
Thanks Tem for your kind explanation. Xdesign: when PFC will arrive, you can understand better... number and abbreviation. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
OK!!! Thank you Tem!
Thank you Maurizio!
Back to the subject!!!
PFC is installed, and I now am in a totally different adventure!!!
I don't know what to change, I'm not sattisfied with the pre-programming (Matt did he's best I'm sure) and I'm thinking about buying the Datalogic, OR a wideband sensor!
What do you think I should do?
If I find someone to dyno tune it, do you think he will be able without a O2 sensor?
Maurizio, which model (O2 sensor) did you get?
How easy is it to install?
Quote from: "xdesign"I don't know what to change, I'm not sattisfied with the pre-programming (Matt did he's best I'm sure) and I'm thinking about buying the Datalogic, OR a wideband sensor!
The MWR pre-programmed map wasn't really useful for me either, maybe there's a difference between US/EU cars, cause ppl in US seem to like them.
QuoteIf I find someone to dyno tune it, do you think he will be able without a O2 sensor?
Dyno tuners usually have their own equipment for checking the mixture, so you probably won't need WBO2 if you let someone else tune it. It's not really useful without the Datalogit anyway, cause you wouldn't be able to log the values.
I see.
I just got a quote from someone who claims he can tune it.
200 Euro + 80-90 for the dynometer!!! LOL
They must be crazy!
Quote from: "xdesign"I see.
I just got a quote from someone who claims he can tune it.
200 Euro + 80-90 for the dynometer!!! LOL
They must be crazy!
If he actually tunes it for that price, go for it! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I'm afraid he means that he'll just tune it for full throttle though and perhaps driveable at other loads s:? :? s:? Full tuning can easily last several days and cost you few thousand euros...
You know, I have a sneaking suspicion that Matt doesn't even program them. I have not heard about one single person who has not had the same problem with CEL due to knock and maps being too rich at high RPM/load, whether they bought from MWR or somewhere else. It is easy to fix and he has a Datalogit, so I have to conclude that he just can't be bothered. Even if I'm wrong about the first part and he does in fact download his data to each and every one sold, he still can't be bothered to go back and change his map so customers won't have these problems.
Quote from: "Beanie"You know, I have a sneaking suspicion that Matt doesn't even program them. I have not heard about one single person who has not had the same problem with CEL due to knock and maps being too rich at high RPM/load, whether they bought from MWR or somewhere else. It is easy to fix and he has a Datalogit, so I have to conclude that he just can't be bothered. Even if I'm wrong about the first part and he does in fact download his data to each and every one sold, he still can't be bothered to go back and change his map so customers won't have these problems.
I bought my PFC from eBay and got the Datalogit from Matt. Got the map by email from Matt, so I'm pretty sure I have it s;) ;) s;) IIRC, the ignition table was the same that comes with PFC, fuel map was a bit richer (even the stock map was too rich for me) and the middle of VVT-i map was changed.
OK, so he does download a file to them, but they all have the same problems... too rich in some areas and too much advance in some areas. I just find it odd that these things have been reported by people who bought from elsewhere. A possible explanation is that he didn't change everything that was inherently wrong. I think he'd sell more if these problems were fixed up front. When I got mine (sold it yesterday... going 2ZZ), problems were unexpected and that irritated me, which is why I wrote up those how-to articles on spyderchat and socalspyders. If I had a laptop I would have uploaded by data and made it a download on socalspyder, but it's too late now. Maybe someone else with a Datalogit will do that.
That VVT-i thing you mentioned... there is definitely a change compared to stock. The changeover is smoother. Driving with stock ECU, it kind of loses some steam at midrange in addition to not having as much power throughout the whole range. I'm starting to adjust to stock and it isn't that bad, but I miss the PFC. Even with the need to modify the maps, PFC is a darned good product.
Just got home so I can compare these two (Matt vs PFC stock). IGN maps are identical. Small differences in IGT map, 1-2 degree decrease in upper revs/higher load area (decrease meaning less advance), 0-2 degree increase in lower revs/load.
Isn't IGT trailing igniton? That's what I assume anyway.
Also, changes in INJ map, making it richer all around. And changes all around VVT map, up to 10 degrees.
You're right PFC is great and I'd hate to live without it now that I'm used to it. I already had basic tune (fuel+advance) when I got the Datalogit from Matt and he threw the map in, which was superb value for $0 s8) 8) s8) Matt's VVT map is great, I haven't touched it, I just copied it into my existing tune. Matt's fuel map just didn't work at all for me, it was way too rich, like it was done with different injectors. And the knock I had went away by adjusting the IGN table, the changes in IGT didn't seem to affect knock at all.
Does anybody know what these two are on about s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I thought it should be IGT based on what someone else said, but it was IGN that I changed. My assumption was that it SHOULD have worked fine for some type of gas (higher octane than me), so I just subtracted 3 from every value. Later on I found that others (maurizio, for example) had fine-tuned it in timing and fuel, but it worked so well for me that I just left it alone and was waiting for Datalogit it do it. Like I said, no laptop, so I never got to it.
You are probably right about different injectors.
I'll be looking for 2ZZ map at some point. First I have to find a good engine and transmission. Depending on how much that will run I may hold off on PFC for it and use stock ECU.
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean, yes, IGT means Trailing.
Quote from: "roger"Does anybody know what these two are on about s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Not the same but i got my e-manage from Matt pre-programmed, then Daz got his which was meant to be pre-programmed but had no maps, then Perry got his and the maps were totally different.After adding my WB O2 i found that both mine and Perry's maps were about as much use as tits on fish. IMO not worth getting anything pre-programmed from him, if you want to have a reliable map.
For anyone with basic mods, who don't intend altering them a great deal, surely the capabilities of the PFC are overkill. It seems far more cost effective to go for something like a Dastek Unichip (I'm biased, I've got one on order!) and get it professionally tuned. I see so many posts where people are asking how to tune the PFC, it's evident that a fair few people (not all) don't know exactly what they're doing.
I must admit, I liked the idea of being able to alter the engine maps at will but if being totally honest with myself I probably wouldn't have the ability to do a PFC justice on my car.
Don't get me wrong I'm not slating the PFC but for some the appeal must be largely down to bling factor, I do realise that there are also people who know what they are doing and can extract some decent performance.
Quote from: "RUSTY"For anyone with basic mods, who don't intend altering them a great deal, surely the capabilities of the PFC are overkill. It seems far more cost effective to go for something like a Dastek Unichip and get it professionally tuned.
I used to think so...but then I saw the PFC in eBay for £300 or so s8) 8) s8)
Now that I have it, I'd buy it for the full price. Takakaira has it for $900, which includes the Commander. I think it's a steal with current exchange rates s8) 8) s8)
QuoteI see so many posts where people are asking how to tune the PFC, it's evident that a fair few people (not all) don't know exactly what they're doing.
I think that's because PFC allows you to tune it yourself, so obviously many are interested in it. If you could tune Unichip yourself, I'm sure we'd see similar posts about that. Heck, if you could tune the stock ECU, I'm sure this place would be crowded with questions about it s;) ;) s;) It's not hard at all, only issues I had with it were the few japanese menus...
QuoteDon't get me wrong I'm not slating the PFC but for some the appeal must be largely down to bling factor, I do realise that there are also people who know what they are doing and can extract some decent performance.
I don't know about that...it's pretty invisible, unless you leave the commander visible to attract thieves s:? :? s:? Normally you couldn't tell if anyone has it...but I know what you mean though, it's considered "The Best", so some probably get it just cause of that.
Personally, I got it cause I wanted to learn. I agree that Unichip (or any other chip) is a better choice, if you're staying N/A and get someone to tune it.
Yeah £300 is a good price - I'd have one for that!
Tem, can you send me your map in excel?
I think I'm gonna buy the Datalogic and then have it tuned as well!!!
That's gonna be around $1000 of course, so I'm gonna do it step by step. First datalogic/experiments then tuning if I have to.
Quote from: "xdesign"Tem, can you send me your map in excel?
Sure, just PM your email to me s8) 8) s8)
It's done for 98 octane and with Apexi intake, PPE header and custom pipe.
As with the dastek and all other tuning piggybacks/standalones, the Power FC HAS TO BE TUNED TO YOUR SPECIFIC CAR TO FUNCION AT ITS BEST AND PROVIDE MAX RELIABLE GAINS.
The MWR maps are great IMO. They should be used as a starting point when tuning. They are not tuned on your car so you should not assume that they are going to work fine on your car. Guys we are talking about a standalone engine management system here not some crappy fuel controller. One parameter wrong and the engine can be made to feel like a 1000cc 3 cylinder.
I have the MWR maps on my Power FC and I can tell you that on the 2ZZ-GE they work ok but are not perfect because there is knock in the midrange rpm. I can tell you though that the low end and the high end where really close to optimal when I began to tune mine. Remember that Matt has to tune the maps rich and conservative since these engines seem to behave really different one from the other for some reason. The maps cost $25(I got mine for free)so it is no big deal IMO.
I will buy the PFC for every car that I intend to tune. The thing is cheap for what it does. I really like my 208Whp N/A s:P :P s:P
208 WHP - not bad for 1.8l NA! Respect. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I agree with everything you say CIN. I do like the map Matt upoloaded, and I don't expect someone from across the globe to program the best map for me!!! I'm sure he did what he could.
As you say, it has to be programmed to the car itself and not a car.
That's what I'm planning to do, but it's expensive!
What mods do you have to gain so much power anyway?!
Quote from: "xdesign"What mods do you have to gain so much power anyway?!
He has a 2ZZ s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "xdesign"What mods do you have to gain so much power anyway?!
He has a 2ZZ s;) ;) s;)
Oh.... minor mod! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
with full race exhaust s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:P :P s:P
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "xdesign"Tem, can you send me your map in excel?
Sure, just PM your email to me s8) 8) s8)
It's done for 98 octane and with Apexi intake, PPE header and custom pipe.
Nothing yet Tem! s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Quote from: "xdesign"Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "xdesign"Tem, can you send me your map in excel?
Sure, just PM your email to me s8) 8) s8)
It's done for 98 octane and with Apexi intake, PPE header and custom pipe.
Nothing yet Tem! s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Hmmmm, I'll resend it tonight then s8) 8) s8)