Just got back from having 40k service, with MOT which failed on emissions, my fault of course for not having a proper air filter or exhaust s:roll: :roll: s:roll: , cost me £282.00 (did have coolant and brake fluid done), they also proudly told me that they have "given" me a litre of oil for topping up between services, then charged me for it, and it wasn't in the car when I looked when I got home. s:evil: :evil: s:evil: They have so p'd me off today that I will probably never darken their sh!tty dealership again. Took car in at 0900, asked for it to be done asap, went back as passing at 1600, ready at 17.15 they told me, back on time for that, finally left at 18.10, I could go on but I think I may have a coronary I was so annoyed, and don't even start me on the salesman who told me that the '2 has got a secondary alarm which sounds the hooter s:?: :?: s:?: Well not mine....rant over s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Quote from: "Liz"Just got back from having 40k service, with MOT which failed on emissions, my fault of course for not having a proper air filter or exhaust s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
It did pass though - right?
Nope. My CO readings are too high on Fast idle reading 0.40% vol and 2nd fast idle 0.48% vol, I thought that they may of tried to sort it out, but no, just blamed my mods!
Sorry topic drift s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
<admin> Topic split due to drift </admin>
Sorry s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Quote from: "Liz"Nope. My CO readings are too high on Fast idle reading 0.40% vol and 2nd fast idle 0.48% vol, I thought that they may of tried to sort it out, but no, just blamed my mods!
Sorry topic drift s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Sorry SteveJ s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Surely it's just a screwdriver job to sort the emissions???
Quote from: "Liz"Nope. My CO readings are too high on Fast idle reading 0.40% vol and 2nd fast idle 0.48% vol, I thought that they may of tried to sort it out, but no, just blamed my mods!
Sorry topic drift s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Absolute BOLLOCKS! There I've said it!
The airfilter and the backbox will NOT have caused you to fail the MOT by such a wide margin.
2 things to check :-
1) Clean the MAF - this will help quite a bit, because if it is dirty, the engine will be getting more air than it thinks, so it will be running lean
2) Check the O2's for contamination / failure. The O2's do degrade over time (in particular if they are running hot due to under-fueling - see point 1 above). They are also prone to contamination from Lead and Silicon in fuel. Proving it's the O2's that are causing the problem is going to be difficult and also costly to fix - I believe MrT want something like £170 each for them, and there are 2 that will need to be replaced.
If neither of the above fix it, get a Dastek UniChip, and get Millway to create an MOT map for you - that should fix it. Should also get an extra 21bhp with a performance map too (assuming the same gains as Martin got pre-turbo).
Quote from: "Roadblade"Surely it's just a screwdriver job to sort the emissions???
If the car had a carburettor and no ECU - yep it would be.
See my previous post for possible causes.
Sam took out my MAF for me when he came over to borrow my airbox and it wasn't dirty, are the O2 sensors a warranty item? only got a few days left on Mr T warranty!
Quote from: "Liz"Sam took out my MAF for me when he came over to borrow my airbox and it wasn't dirty, are the O2 sensors a warranty item? only got a few days left on Mr T warranty!
The MAF doesn't look dirty until you clean it - believe me if you havent cleaned it since you bought the car, it IS dirty.
O2's are going to be difficult. Because you failed the MOT whilst under warranty, the dealer
HAS to fix it - make their life HELL until they do so s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
PS. I would put the stock air box in for the warranty work - that way they can't blame the a'Pexi
Quote from: "SteveJ"O2's are going to be difficult. Because you failed the MOT whilst under warranty, the dealer HAS to fix it - make their life HELL until they do so s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
That I like s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
My warranty is out in Sept - Looks like MOT is August then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "SteveJ"The MAF doesn't look dirty until you clean it - believe me if you havent cleaned it since you bought the car, it IS dirty.
What he said! s8) 8) s8)
Just cleaned mine and it looked ok before, but after cleaning it looked like new. And I don't even have 20k miles yet...
Anyone bringing a screwdriver tomorrow??
I am tempted to put the stock airbox on - get one of those pipe things that Mark is doing and sell the Apexi.
im sure we will have enogth time to put the air box back on !
shame tho as i agree with steve as the A'exi wont effect the emmitions
Same problem a couple of us have had. High emmisions, turned out to be the O2 sensors. If you don't get them covered under warranty then DO NOT buy from Mr T. They can be bought for about £35 IIRC.
I have got to call them today about a few matters relating to service, I shall ask them to check the O2 sensors before the warranty runs out!
Quote from: "SteveJ"Quote from: "Liz"Nope. My CO readings are too high on Fast idle reading 0.40% vol and 2nd fast idle 0.48% vol, I thought that they may of tried to sort it out, but no, just blamed my mods!
Sorry topic drift s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Absolute BOLLOCKS! There I've said it!
Possibly a little un-P.C. but it cannot be denied the man speaks sense...
You can add whatever intake and exhaust arrangement you like to the car, and it will compensate accordingly. To do this it measures the airflow into the engine, and the oxygen content of the gasses out, and alters the mount of fuel and ignition timing to bring the oxygen reading within a specified range. At this range the car will pass all emmisions tests with ease.
Therefore the
only thing that will cause a deviation in the emmisions will be a "false" reading from one of these two points. As the primary concern on all modern cars is the O2 content of the exhaust gasses (O2 is very simple to measure, and the amont of 02 present is direcly proportional to the efficiecy of the fuel burning in your engine) that would be my first place to look... (I knew that all these years of learning combustion control systems would come in handy one day...)
I managed to get one of the O2's out at the Treasure Hunt (the right hand one), and it seemed to have a strange pink colour to it - all of the sensors I've looked at previously have either been white (OK) or black (engine too rich) so I'm not sure what to make of pink s:? :? s:?
The left hand O2 refused to budge, and I didn't fancy having to explain to Liz why she couldn't drive the car if it sheared off, so discretion was the order of the day with that one - let MrT fix it s:) :) s:)
I would have been interested to get the left-hand one out, as out of 4 cars that I have looked at recently, the left-hand pre-cat on 3 of them has been showing signs of the surface breaking up (the right hand pre-cat has been fine on all of them) - the worst one was jonboy's, and he is now reporting consuming all of his oil in about 1500 miles. Conicidence? I think NOT!
Thanks for the advice, I am going to Mr T tomorrow armed with this, not going to take any sh!t off of them about mods etc, Grants post was very informative and will be quoted!
I shall add that to my list of - the oil that they "gave" me and then charged me for was not in the car.
Steve J when looking at my O2 sensors saw that my coolant was empty - despite being changed the previous day
Lights behind my heater control are still out, despite them being on the job sheet to be done
Only thing they done right was changing the shock over, must say that it is driving alot better now.
Hopefully I will keep my dignity and not lose my rag, but if I don't get any satisfaction I am going to speak to the service manager and get answers as to exactly what they play at when you take the car in there, considering it was taken in at 0900 and was not ready until 18.10 despite me being told that it would be ready asap.
Let you know how I get on! If you don't hear from me means that I got arrested for public order and will need bailing out!
Quote from: "SteveJ"I managed to get one of the O2's out at the Treasure Hunt (the right hand one), and it seemed to have a strange pink colour to it - all of the sensors I've looked at previously have either been white (OK) or black (engine too rich) so I'm not sure what to make of pink s:? :? s:?
Urk - just found this - http://www.tomco-inc.com/tip4.htm If it is leaded fuel that has done this, then the cats are all toast too, which could also explain the failed MOT, although the cat failure should be picked up by the 3rd O2 sensor (Liz's car is UK spec and does have the 3rd O2 unlike J-Spec cars)
Quote from: "SteveJ"I'm not sure what to make of pink s:? :? s:?
I use optimax all the time, could this be a problem?
Quote from: "Liz"Thanks for the advice, I am going to Mr T tomorrow armed with this, not going to take any sh!t off of them about mods etc, Grants post was very informative and will be quoted!
I shall add that to my list of - the oil that they "gave" me and then charged me for was not in the car.
Steve J when looking at my O2 sensors saw that my coolant was empty - despite being changed the previous day
Lights behind my heater control are still out, despite them being on the job sheet to be done
Only thing they done right was changing the shock over, must say that it is driving alot better now.
Hopefully I will keep my dignity and not lose my rag, but if I don't get any satisfaction I am going to speak to the service manager and get answers as to exactly what they play at when you take the car in there, considering it was taken in at 0900 and was not ready until 18.10 despite me being told that it would be ready asap.
Let you know how I get on! If you don't hear from me means that I got arrested for public order and will need bailing out!
be nice toi teh service manager, to be taken seriosuly you need to be seen to reasonable, and his techs incompetent.
well Mike used optimax all teh while and his engine has recently gone pop.
so I'd guess and say yes.
I ONLY use Optimax or BP ultimate, and my O2 sensors and pre-cats are fine - 24k miles.
I have always used Optimax with no problem.
Liz if Mr T won't stump up for O2 sensors then these guys sell them and they are Denso made same as the origonals but at £35 each delivered.
m http://www.gendandirect.co.uk (http://www.gendandirect.co.uk) m
Fantastic thanks for that DAZ, going to be the first thing I ask them tomorrow to replace them and try emissions again.
Then I will ask where the oil is and why my coolant is so low and why the bulbs haven't been replaced s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Thanks for all the help on this guys
I assume this was Rayleigh Toyota Liz? Sounds a bit like them to me.
In my experience if you talk to them about something that is wrong they're really not very willing to help you until you state the bleedin obvious (a la, they should be doing something to fix whatever the problem is).
Even if they do end up fixing your probs, I think their customer care attitude is pretty sheeite, like everything they're doing is a HUUGE favour to you.
Good luck anyway
Oh yes, one and the same, was talking about your alloys to Steph the other day, which I am glad about because I have discovered that my rear offside is bubbling, now they have done yours they have to do mine s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
That other girl at reception is not as good as Steph, as you say, everything they do is a favour they seem to forget that you are paying for it. I asked for a 4 wheel alignment to be done after the other shock was replaced, told that it didn't need it and that I would of have to of paid for it anyway, they seemed surprised when I said that was what I expected and was willing to pay.....doh! Yet another thing asked for and ignored. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Regarding the coolant this is strange all the pictures I have seen show it very full way past the MAX level on the cars, yet mine is always sitting below the low line untill the engine is running then it sits where it should between the min and max. I would expect the ones in the pictures to be too full.
My engine repair manual says it should sit between these lines so is Mr T filling them up too much ?
Quote from: "Liz"Oh yes, one and the same, was talking about your alloys to Steph the other day, which I am glad about because I have discovered that my rear offside is bubbling, now they have done yours they have to do mine s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I didn't make it in on Satdee, cos I done my back in (and cant drive), so mine haven't been done yet.
Thought I'd better let you know in case you need to use my situation as ammo if you get any bother
No worries, I will have your wheel then as you didn't make it, it will be sitting there waiting for you!!.....not really.
They know that you had yours replaced under warranty at Camden, those have gone bubbly so they are replacing them again so seen as they replaced mine under warranty they have no argument - but thanks for the warning.
Quote from: "GSB"Therefore the only thing that will cause a deviation in the emmisions will be a "false" reading from one of these two points. As the primary concern on all modern cars is the O2 content of the exhaust gasses (O2 is very simple to measure, and the amont of 02 present is direcly proportional to the efficiecy of the fuel burning in your engine) that would be my first place to look... (I knew that all these years of learning combustion control systems would come in handy one day...)
Actually now I think about it, there is one other thing...
If the main or pre-cats are failing then they wont be processing the excess CO from the engine quite so well anymore, increasing the CO measured at the tailpipe, even though the engine is running fine. Of course the MOT limit for CO is quite high, and I would expect the ECU to have flagged up the problem from the comparitive reading on the 3rd O2 sensor, but I have no idea what range of readings the ECU considers "normal". It could be that the cat is on its way out, but isnt yet so bad that the ECU has flagged it as a problem (they tend to set big values on such things to reduce false alarms).
Theres also the possibilty of dirty injectors as well, which can cause poor emmsions at idle, due to poor atomisation at very low pulse widths. What were the emmissions like at higher engine speeds?
I dont think that either of these are as likely as an O2 sensor fault though, especially if its turned "pink", but they're something to investigate and tick off the list.
Either way, get them to sort it out, and once they've "passed" the MOT for you, take to another MOT staion and get them to do an emmisions test just to be sure, it's amazingly easy to pass an emmsions test if you know what your doing.
The other thing I was going to mention is that there seems to be an awful ot of unhappy customers coming out of Rayliegh Toyota recently, and not just on this board either. Has there been some management change there or something?
To give Rayleigh Toyota some credit today, we rang up and arranged to see the service manager, he was quite shocked at what we have been through, have taken the car straight in, everything is fine apart from there is a leak between the cat and the exhaust, therefore causing problems with the emission, so going to ring H & S now to see if I can take it down there to be tightened up. Keep you posted.
That'll be managers for ya, tell the staff to try and keep from shelling out anything wherever possible, then oh-so-quick to act shocked when they hear such stories, a sham of a mockery of a sham if you ask me!
Well went to H & S this morning - they tightened up the link between the cat and the exhaust pipe, back to Rayleigh Toyota and passed its emmisions - now reading:
Natural idle - 0.00% vol
Fast Idle - 0.01%
Why on earth Mr T just didn't tighten up the slight leak why they had it god only knows, anyway issued it with a MOT even though it had the dodgy plates back on which made me smile.
New set of tyres and tracking and alignment checked on the way home - got new road tax as well, total spend on car this week £627.00
Whilst I was at H & S I showed them a print of the mock up which Paul done with my exhaust set into the bumper - they are going to do that for me for £60.00 - next mod alert. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Just to say to everyone that has contributed to this thread, thanks for your help and support and I am a happy lady today, especially with the roof down and the roar of the A'PEXi and the H & S behind me....bliss!! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Quote from: "Liz"Whilst I was at H & S I showed them a print of the mock up which Paul done with my exhaust set into the bumper - they are going to do that for me for £60.00 - next mod alert. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Keep us posted on that. Any idea on the costs and when they can do it? I'm thinking of what to get done before JAE.
Congrats on the MOT pass. I'm going to check the link between the cat and my exhaust although it's probably ok.
I honestly don't see hwo this would be teh cause? all that would happen is that more gas would escape elsewhere than teh tailpipes.
Since teh probes for emissions testing go in teh tailpipes, they should read low, not high.
I wasnt sure about this either, my gas analysis theory is a little rusty...
The joint design at that point is a flexible reinforced graphite "doughnut", held together by spring tension. In other words its never going to be a perfect seal. I would think that at that point 2 things would happen if it leaked:
1/ Exhaust gas would escape - in which case there is no way a gas detector is going to detect it...
2/ Air is drawn in - again, its not going to cause high CO readings, unless by virtue of the analysers design it doesnt measure CO content directly, but calculates it by measureing other gases, such as Oxygen content... If Air (Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, plus balance) were to get in, the increased O2 levels could cause the analyser to calculate a high CO?
Just my theory by the way, as I said, my gas analysis knowledge is so seldom used I'd have to get the manuals out, but if the MOT station doesn't use a highly accurate, but extremely expensive Infra-Red analyser, its likely that air leaking into the exhaust could confuse things...
We've never actually heard from Liz what part of the emmisions it failed on. It could of been the lamda test which is amount of O2 in the gas, with a leak drawing more air in it will send this out.... Maybe
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"We've never actually heard from Liz what part of the emmisions it failed on. It could of been the lamda test which is amount of O2 in the gas, with a leak drawing more air in it will send this out.... Maybe
Quote from: "Liz"Nope. My CO readings are too high on Fast idle reading 0.40% vol and 2nd fast idle 0.48% vol, I thought that they may of tried to sort it out, but no, just blamed my mods!
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Shows how much attention i pay. Back too sleep then....Nite s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "Liz"Whilst I was at H & S I showed them a print of the mock up which Paul done with my exhaust set into the bumper - they are going to do that for me for £60.00 - next mod alert. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Liz when are you looking to do this s:?: :?: s:?: Please post a piccy if soon as I may get this done when they put the exhaust on this month s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
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