which out of these would be the cheaper mod including all labour work?
also, if swaping for a 2ZZ, how do you go about telling the insurance? -
Me: have swapped my enigine but its still a 1.8
Insurance: oh, no extra charge then!
ref insurance they'd ask havs it increased teh power, and you'd say yes.
which would be cheaper? depends on your insurance company.
which is better.? it's as much personal preference as anything.
you could argue a 2zz is more reliable as your leaving it stock, but by the time you've bought it, had it fitted, paid for a full custom exhaust, to do it properly e.t.c you won't have spent far of teh costs of Perry's turbo kit.
you pays your money you makes your choice,
for me turbo = torque, that woudl be my choice.
is the stock 1ZZ reliable enough for a turbo, meaning no parts need replacing for stronger ones.
What power figure do the turbo kits kick out? i would want at least 200bhp
TTE reckon that the clutch may need replacing if you go as far as 200bhp, but that your basically safe to wait and see if it blow get a beter one.
teh engine internals can cope with modest boost certainly enough to get 200bhp. after that, maybe.
The stock clutch will *not* hold the level of torque and will fail sooner or later. Mind took probably a couple of months, including a hell of a thrashing at an airfield.
Due to a slight technical mix up, I was running at around 0.9bar for a while (@14psi) - nothing went pop happily! Have since dialled it back down to 0.5 - 0.6 bar which seems optimal on stock parts anyway. I wouldn't try and push the engine past 200bhp but IMO, if you really want more than that, you're in the wrong car.
Throwing the 2ZZ in will ultimately be more reliable, however, you will be reducing the ease of day-to-day driving as the torque moves up the rev range. To the get the most from it, the rev range is something like 6000-8000rpm. The turbo is a very lazy 3000-6000rpm.
Quote from: "mph"Throwing the 2ZZ in will ultimately be more reliable, however, you will be reducing the ease of day-to-day driving as the torque moves up the rev range.
Actually it's pretty much the same as 1ZZ till 6000rpm...
Power/torquewise you can pretty much think of it as equal to 1ZZ up to 6000rpm. The difference is that just when the 1ZZ is about to start losing power and hit the limiter, the 2ZZ really comes alive.
I know it feels like it's missing a lot of torque from lower revs, but it doesn't. It just feels so cause of the massive upper rpm power.
I stand corrected. s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I have some but little experience with the 2ZZ.
It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica. Anyone?
Quote from: "mph"It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica. Anyone?
I have one at home...I'll post it tonight, unless someone beats me to it.
TURBO IT s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
When Adam's finally finished his 2ZZ conversion, we'll all be able to have back-to-back tests. Should be interesting!
i would be under the umbrella of changing for a 2ZZ and then go from there as it's more than starndard and i think that altho a turbo do look nice and give good torque i think the reliablity of the 2zz is unquestionable.
Also at a later date and it's still not engoth power then there's nothing stopping you with putting better pistions cranks pulleys eyc and then if thast still not enogth then turbo the 2zz
s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "mph"The stock clutch will *not* hold the level of torque and will fail sooner or later. Mind took probably a couple of months, including a hell of a thrashing at an airfield.
Martin is 100% right here but i thought i'd throw in the fact i've been turbo'd for nearly a year and still no clutch slip. (kiss of death i know)
MAYBE and it is a maybe the JSpec version has a different clutch, or i'm just a lucky sod. I have a clutch at home on standby anyway.
Quote from: "mph"It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica.
Here's one with the US versions, so the 2ZZ-GE is the 180hp version...
(http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/MR2ROC/image001.gif)
Whats the 2ZZ rev limit then s:?: :?: s:?:
Something in my head is telling me that those graphs don't look right, but I can't think why. s:? :? s:? Interestingly, all my graphs for the 1ZZ pre-turbo and even pre-unichip peek around 6600-6700.
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Whats the 2ZZ rev limit then s:?: :?: s:?:
8200
As an owner of both engines (n/a), I would recommend the turbo for it's more linear delivery (feels odd, saying that about a turbo).
The way the power comes in on the 2ZZE is not a good idea for a ME installation. Note the ECU has been completely reporgrammed for the 111R.
And, the 2ZZE isn't
that reliable. There are 3 on Celica-Club.co.uk that have had the short engine replaced under wty.
Limit is 8450 according to my diagnostics sheet from Jap Parts who ran the engine up when it was imported.
From the graphs ive seen of standard 1zz they look more like this
______
/
/
/
Roughly of course.
[admin edit (mph): added code tag to preserve spacing]
It wont let me draw it because it take out all the spaces.
Put your drawing within [ code ] [ /code ] tags Adam s:) :) s:) (Tags without the spaces, of course)
Err, or get a mod/admin to take pity and do it for you s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "mph"Err, or get a mod/admin to take pity and do it for you s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yeah but you can never find a nice mod when you need one..
Oh.. hello Martin, didn't see you there s;) ;) s;) s:lol: :lol: s:lol: (Only kidding.. honest!)
Back to topic - didn't our Portugese member post a dyno chart recently? I'll do a quick search..
Like I said, those are from US Celicas...they might be different from UK/EU, but my 1ZZ dyno sure seems a lot like that one...
m http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg (http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg) m
2ZZ has different rev limits on different years. At least 8200 and 8400 have been used, maybe more...
i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz
s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
there is nothing wrong with 2zzge reliabilty, just the fact that some people might mis-shift our 6speed and drop from 3rd into 2nd at 8,100 rpm might be slightly damaging to your 2zzge... and that might happen if you are not careful and if your transmission didnt loosen up a bit or you got used to it more... thats also an reason +02 models of our 6speed got stricter gates and are harder to shift smoothly
Quote from: "spwolf"i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz
Why would a turbo 2ZZ be more reliable than turbo 1ZZ (at same power level)...?
Also, don't know how much mad power really is, but here's one example of my idea of mad power from 1ZZ:
m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11742 (http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11742) m
Note that the dyno shows rwhp...and even if the hp number really doesn't seem that huge, think again. Let's take a 3500lbs Skyline, with 600hp and (estimated) 30% drivetrain loss. That's 120 whp/1000lbs.
Then take a 282 whp Spyder with 2200lbs and you have ~130whp/1000lbs. Suddenly the sub 300hp MR2 sounds pretty good, huh? s;) ;) s;)
because - according to people who build turbos for both 1zz and 2zz - 2zz is much slicker design and tougher engine, and you could have same whp with 2zz while running at smaller psi, which would make it loads more reliable... 2zz-ge kits with t3/t4 do around 250whp at 8 psi, with no mods to the engine at all, no IC, with no issues - except that the 6speed tranny likes to blow up if mis-handled
have no doubts though - my choice will be TTE turbo, nice and reliable, not too much power either... but 2zzge turbo is good stuff...
Quote from: "spwolf"i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz
But if you turbo a 2ZZ your going to have to lower the compression ratio presumably, doesn't that negate the point of having the 2ZZ in the first place?
Seems a bit like reverse engineering to me???
For the "mad power", you have to pretty much change both engines internals...that's why I don't really see the reliability issue...
Quote from: "MRMike"Quote from: "spwolf"i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz
But if you turbo a 2ZZ your going to have to lower the compression ratio presumably, doesn't that negate the point of having the 2ZZ in the first place?
Seems a bit like reverse engineering to me???
apperantly not, as written in the previous post, 2zzge turbos in the states can get to 250whp w/o any mods, and so far nobody there had issues.. You dont need new pump, no new injectors, no need to build up the engine, nothing... And they only use crappy 91 octane gas (which is our 95). Low boost needed is good for reliability... if you wanted to get more than 250whp, they are now (finally) parts for building up 2zzge as well.
Kingsypder's 1zz engine is nicely modified, at least 2k-3k in basic mods to the engine that you would have to do to get your 1zz up to that kind of power... and he probably put $15k-20k into the whole car
2zzge turbo kits appeared recently, but 2zzge seems to be holding up quite well.
To me, 250whp is a lot, and 250whp in a spyder is definetly mad power... it also solves 2zzge low torque below 6k... and as juansolo posted in the other thread, you wont have much traction with that kind of power, kingspder said that he slid through 1/4 run (at lower boost than 12-13 psi needed for that 285whp) on the track s:) :) s:) .
If you had money, then you would probably want 2zzge+turbo, it will get you more reliably to where you want to go... as long as you really know why you need that much power in lil spyder...
I shall be very happy with TTE turbo and 190 crank hp, if it comes out, but longer they delay it, it will be harder to tell the women to stop looking at that new apt s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "spwolf"2zzge turbos in the states can get to 250whp w/o any mods, and so far nobody there had issues.. You dont need new pump, no new injectors, no need to build up the engine, nothing...
I wouldn't say nothing...here's a list for getting those 250whp from e http://www.newcelica.org/other/dyno/keyshawn/xs2.htm (http://www.newcelica.org/other/dyno/keyshawn/xs2.htm) m
Not really sure, cause I haven't been following FI 2ZZ's that much, but I think stock pump+injectors are fine for over 200whp, but not for 250whp.
I am really unsure of injectors, but they should hold up to 8psi, then again new injectors are $300-$400, if you check his info, he did not strenghten the engine at all actually... unlike 1zz that has to be seriously strenghten to handle that much whp
as i said previously, 2zz-ge FI is in its early stages, at this point the best kit (IMHO) is SF kit, which will give you around 250whp, with the kit, and alcohol injection for safety, all together $3.5k... not bad at all.. you dont need PFC or anything else, HOWEVER I am sure keyshawn got all of that since he wants to fine tune the kit to a lot more than 250whp... He got PFC, bigger pump and injectors so he can boost it all the way up - consider that he was runing 7-8 psi at that point in time... he could do a lot more with PFC
Nevertheless, if you wanted a lot more than 250whp in 2zzge, there are now finally parts to build up internals (up to 6 months ago, there were none)...
Its not all fun and games for the 2ZZ Celica owners eathier. Check out Smaay on newcelica.org's misery he went through with his turbo.
Honestly a Turbo 2zz price wise would be rediculous plus all the internals you would have to do. I persoanlly wouldnt feel safe boosting 250+whp with 11.5:1 Compression ratio on pump gas.
Turbo 1ZZ with some light internals would be nice!
Turboing any originally NA engine is a risk, doesn't matter which model it is. It just isn't meant to be. It would be foolish to think one WILL be better than another.
You make a choice, you take a chance.For every success story, there's a horror one.
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Turboing any originally NA engine is a risk, doesn't matter which model it is. It just isn't meant to be. It would be foolish to think one WILL be better than another.
You make a choice, you take a chance.For every success story, there's a horror one.
Would it be impossible to decrease the compression ratio a bit? Here's a link from SC: http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10195&start=0