sorry for starting this on a new thread but the other one was going off track.
i said dont count your chickens and it has gone all wrong.
toyota have refused to do the engine change as i missed my 30.000 service.they say that because it has missed an oil change that has contributed to the wear on the engine and has invalidaed my warranty on the car????
any suggestions please???(please no sarcastic ones as i am really down at the moment)
Try another dealer? s:? :? s:? Or is it Big Mr T who have said no?
Hmm that seems a bit tough but if your has done 43k miles when was your previous service done? Has the dealer said that the engine problem been caused by the wear of the pre cats? I'd ask them whether the 30k service would have included a check on the pre cats because the problem may have gone undetected?
3 options: (not including breaking down and crying, or a gallon of four star, some swan vesta's, and a contrived phone call to the insurance company...)
1/ 2ZZ swap s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: Yes it'll cost a bit, but at the end of it your car will be damn fast...
2/ Start phoning breakers yards
3/ Buy another Toyota from the dealer, as theres a strong chance that he might give you a decent trade in value and then swallow the repair bill himself... friend of mine went this route when his freelander blew up.
nothing mentioned regards to the pre cats but i did ask them to be checked at the 40.000 service and was told they were fine, but stevej checked them and said they were knackered.
how much im i looking at for the engine swap gsb and is that all i need??no hidden extras????
its mr t warranty dept that has refused.
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Everyone feel free to flame me s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: but there does seem to be a big issue with the pre-cats here (and everywhere else). It was a concern of mine before buying the car but I was told not to worry about it and indeed, I still went ahead and purchased my '2. It still is a worry though and I am considering ditching the pre-cats, but that will probably void my warranty s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
[/context setting]
Anyway, getting to the point, and the bit that people may flame me about. As you were told the pre-cats were OK by the dealer, yet someone who has experienced (or seen) pre-cat failure and commented that yours were a bit poo, I would offer the following suggestions.
1. See if your dealer will stump up half (or more) of the costs given they said everything was alright.
2. Threaten that you will go to the press over the pre-cat situation to highlight to all owners that they could be damaging to their vehicle.
3. Plead with them a bit and ask if a dealer oil change is so vital to the engine (are the engines really that intolerant). Can you provide details of any oil change to them to show that it was done, just not by the dealer.
4. If it's a common fault (as you mention on the other post) then they should be recalling and sorting them out for everyone.
I'm probably talking a crock of brown stuff and don't have all the facts, but this sort of thing annoys me. If an owner is not mechanically minded, they rely upon the dealer to sort out problems for them. The disappearing oil you had does not seem a minor issue to me and so as an ongoing saga should be sorted out by the dealer / Mr T, not yourself! If the car had no oil in it at all then that's a manufacturer issue (normally). Even if you had missed the service, if it was operating correctly it should have at least had some mucky oil in it.
Sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil. Why can't they accept the problem and fix it. If you've spent 15-20k on a product, I want royal treatment when it comes to getting things fixed. Fight them all the way.
Didn't mean to rant/ramble so much s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
you have just summed up exactly how i feel at this present time.
This is where the plot thickens......
When the car went in for service I believe they commented (and correct me if I'm wrong here jonboy) that there was no oil in the engine (not registering on the dipstick), now if that was the case, how long has it been like that. Given that the 30K service was missed, potentially 20,000 miles.
20K old oil is going to be pretty thin and useless - which is why it started getting past the rings, once the oil had all escaped the wear on the engine will have increased dramatically (although no-one here really needs me to tell them that!).
Given that the car hasn't seen the inside of a workshop for 20K (or more) how do ToyotaGB know how long the car has been like this. The simple answer is they don't, so they are refusing the warranty work due to failure to follow service requirements.
Basically as the thread title says - you are f@~:>d!!!! unless Toyota suddenly develop a conscience
but the car had been in previous before the 30.000 for high oil consumption.they did they 500 miles test and said everything was ok.
I'm minded to agree with SteveJ; as much as your engine blow-up might be due to the usual pre-cats problem, if you've not maintained the service schedule (and your only get-out here is that the warranty terms state it must be serviced in accordance with the schedule - not neccessarily by a main dealer), then you've voided your warranty terms.
bit of a sticky one.
If you can PROVE you had teh service or/and oil change done elsewhaere, then they have no case. Legally you don't have to use a main dealer for servicing even in warranty. Now most of us stump up the extra and do go to the main dealer precisely because we want to avoid this debate. This assumes you had teh missing service/oil change done eksewhere.
If you didn't then your on dodgy ground.
the pre-cats are not on teh inspection list for ANY scheduled service so unless they are arguing that the oil issue has caused teh pre-cat problem, they should replace those regardless.
Please bear in mind that although many of us are happy in our minds, it has NEVER been proven that the oil/precats issue is related. You will have a seriously hard time attempting to prove this from a legal perspective.
I beleive they are stretching it a bit suggesting that a missed service has caused it, but are they saying that? If they are saying that teh fact it wasn't serviced according to specs invalidates teh warranty then thats a different issue, and arguably they have a point. Service intervals are prescribed for a reason.
I don't have a solution for you I'm afraid, except keep your cool, and be reasonable, I know you won't be feeling like it, but like it or not they have teh upper hand, pissing them off will only make it worse.
Seeing as it is a common problem, even if teh root causes are not acknowledged officially I would hope that at least they will meet you half way as a gesture of good will.
Quote from: "markiii"Legally you don't have to use a main dealer for servicing even in warranty. Now most of us stump up the extra and do go to the main dealer precisely because we want to avoid this debate. This assumes you had the missing service/oil change done eksewhere.
I don't believe that piece of legislation is on the statute books yet - currently the manufacturer
can force you to use a main dealer in order maintain your warranty status. Even when the new rules come in to force later this year, they can still insist you use an approved garage who have undergone the appropriate training and are certified accordingly.
You will NOT be able to use just any garage.
If you were, then people would start servicing the cars themselves and given some of the horror stories that get told on here that would be an absolute disaster and Toyota would almost certainly stop providing any warranty beyond the legal miniumum.
i have just spoke to the tech at westlands and asked him why toyota have not recalled the engines as he initially told me that it is a common fault with roadster engines (appartenty the same fault in an avensis) he is adament that the fault is not down to the pre-cats.
i think that is the way i am gonna talk this as if it is a fault with the engine it would have gone bad whether i had the 30.000 service or not.
Quote from: "jonboy"i think that is the way i am gonna talk this as if it is a fault with the engine it would have gone bad whether i had the 30.000 service or not.
Your biggest problem is they noticed the lack of oil when you arrived for the service - read the handbook - you have a
duty of care to ensure that the engine has sufficient fluids at all times - Toyota have a very good defence in that you failed to do this.
Quote from: "jonboy"i have just spoke to the tech at westlands and asked him why toyota have not recalled the engines as he initially told me that it is a common fault with roadster engines (appartenty the same fault in an avensis) he is adament that the fault is not down to the pre-cats.
Did you get that in writing - if not, as soon as you take this line with Toyota, that particular techie is history, and you will never find him to ask him to testify if this ends up in court.
to be blunt, and I dare say you won't want to hear it.
If you didn't have a 30000 mile service done, and you didn't check the oil sufficiently to notice it had all gone, (or even notice, because zero oil means no oil pressure which means no VVTI which means BIG power loss)
correct me if any of this is wrong. Then to be honest you did fail in your duty of care. And it's not unreasonable that they void the warranty.
I' personally would go for teh sympathy approach. You really love teh car, would in time by a new one, they would be your local dealer, so come on chaps meet me half way.
for instance, you pay for the parts, they pick up the l;abhour, or something.
Put in simple terms Jonboy, and I do hate to say it, but you are stuffed...
Your only options are to somehow convince Toyota to pay part of the bill as a goodwill gesture, Convince the dealer to take the broken car off your hands by doing a deal on a car from their forcourt, Or biting the bullet and phoning some breakers yards.
If your handy with a toolkit it wont be more than a weekends work to swap over second hand engine with your knackered one, but you must remember that you will need a new manifold and cat assembly. Expect it to cost about £4-500 all in.
If you try and take on Toyota, you are in for months of heartache, and all the while your car will be sat at the dealers collecting dust and costing you storage fees...
jonboy! Sorry to hear about this mate .. I have dealt with Westlands in bromsgrove and they replaced my alloys even tho I was passed warranty .. I can think of the chaps name there who I dealt with there tho, but I spose a set of alloys comapred to a new engine is peanuts.
Hope that you manage to sort things out, if you need any help with things in the RedditchBromsgrove area just send me a pm if I can be of assistance.
I would definitely recommend sugar rather than salt when dealing with them... it's a PITA to say the least that your engine has failed, but as others have already said, it's your duty to ensure that it's got sufficient fluids, and a missed or unrecorded service is a sure fire way to void the warranty.
I did however get Toyota Customer relations to meet me halfway on the parts for my belt tensioner, despite it being out of warranty. Apparently they have a slush fund for this kind of thing.
It was very annoying because it had been noisy for ages and I think it should have been picked up by the "Technicians" at the last service, rather than my "non-trained" ear, but any financial help is better than nothing in the end...
Although looking at your list of mods, I'd take the plunge and get a 2ZZ in there to complete the package! s8) 8) s8) It's probably not worth you trying to trade the whole car in for peanuts after the effort you've made modding it up to now.
Just my 2p!
Tim
thanks for everybodies input good and bad.
i think that the car is gonna have an engine replacement at a later date.i am gonna have no joy through toyota as the tech does not want to put anything in writing(just been to see him)
so the car is gonna be run with me checking the oil every week and me saving up for an engine swap.
so any advice on were to get said engine swap from please pm me with details as this thread is now dead.
please lock. s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Jon,
Guts your cats, ssooner rather than later. You won't save the enigne, but if it's not completely dead you may extend it's life somewhat by mot making it any worse.
One last thing is that nudget ofr a replacement main cat aswell. if your keep pouring oil throughth the engine it will die as well.
Quote from: "SteveJ"currently the manufacturer can force you to use a main dealer in order maintain your warranty status.
I believe, although don't still have it of course, that my warranty record book explicity said (in a 'FAQ' style section) that it wasn't a requirement to use a main dealer for servicing, only that the service standards must be met. That's as good as waiving that right, in my view, although that may still not apply to newer vehicles/handbooks.
Quote from: "jonboy"so any advice on were to get said engine swap from please pm me with details as this thread is now dead.
please lock.
<MOD> Jon, I'd rather not lock the thread as someone may have info to post that could be useful to all members </MOD>
ok.sorry me being selfish.
Just a comment:
Arn't the interim service intervals "Health Checks" and as such, isn't it possible that actually the only service intervals (minimum this is) required is the 20k, 40k, 60k, etc.... ???
If so then you have stuck to the minimum required ?
The next point would be, did you check your oil and re-fill if necessary ? I check mine every couple of weeks as when I'm razzing around there is bound to be some used ? so I always have a 4ltr tub of Mobil one kicking around for topping up between services....
So it had, had a 20k, then a 40k, which meant everything seemed to be ok, now at 43k say its gone, fizz pop, so they take ya money, but now no warranty pay out ???
a little unthoughtful of them.....
Darren
hmm, well even teh interim services include oil and filter change, so I suppose their argument still holds.
I think replacing the engine with a second hand one may be the best bet.
Some of our members import broken 2s that the japanese guys have smashed up and it's quite probable that the engines are fine for reuse.
When mine goes ,and judging by others experience ,that's in about 10k as mines done 30k now, I'll try to go this route. There is a wealth of knowledge in the membership and everyone is very helpful.
Remember you are not on your own! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
my handbook states that i must have a service every 9,000 miles! it's J-spec s:? :? s:?
But servicing is required every 10K miles.
says nothing about 10,000 in mine, definately 9,000, maybe the japenese have shorter service intervals
Quote from: "Tomr2"says nothing about 10,000 in mine, definately 9,000, maybe the japenese have shorter service intervals
It's pretty much irrelevant though as the warranty isn't valid on Jap cars in the UK anyway is it? If so, service it whenever you like, 9 or 10k intervals.
Quote from: "Slacey"Quote from: "Tomr2"says nothing about 10,000 in mine, definately 9,000, maybe the japenese have shorter service intervals
It's pretty much irrelevant though as the warranty isn't valid on Jap cars in the UK anyway is it? If so, service it whenever you like, 9 or 10k intervals.
it might be, just a bloody long drive to teh dealer to find out :-) :-) :-)
Sh*t im a bit scared now, mine is Y reg and I had to scrimp and save 2 get her. The engine going is last thing I want. On the up side she has done only 20k Been serviced by Mr T twice oil changed each time. Also got a great garage by me, best m8 runs it. Just got him to check the cat etc and change the oil for fully syntetic last week just incase. Hopefully these are isolated cases, I HOPE
Quote from: "j80rjo"only 20k
Just got him to check the cat etc
Mine had about 20k when it blew...
And I think you should check the cats daily, if you want to notice them in time. Things seem to happen pretty fast when they start happening...
I'm still not worrying too much, these engines seem to be pretty cheap. Skip a major maintenance and you already saved enough for new (=used) engine s8) 8) s8)
Im sure these are just isolated cases, im sure if loads of 2's had this problem then a re-call would have been in order ?????????
Quote from: "j80rjo"Im sure these are just isolated cases, im sure if loads of 2's had this problem then a re-call would have been in order ?????????
[cynical hat on] Doubtful - engine failures are unlikely to cause anyone serious bodily harm and/or kill anyone, ergo the cost of sorting each case out isn't great. If we were talking about wheels dropping off and killing people, the potential claims against Toyota could be billions -
that would warrant a recall. A few hundred, or even a few thousand engine replacements would most likely cost far less than a few million.. The cost of issuing a recall (in terms of every car coming back, in every market, along with the damage to image) would be far far greater. [/cynical hat off]
Of course, you'd hope things didn't really work like that but..
But there wouldn't be THAT many MR2's to recall as there isnt that many around. I wonder what the % rate for engine failures in 2's is, and it seems to be getting higher all the time
Quote from: "Tomr2"But there wouldn't be THAT many MR2's to recall as there isnt that many around. I wonder what the % rate for engine failures in 2's is, and it seems to be getting higher all the time
As of this time last year, they'd built about 60,000 of them...
worldwide though right?
Quote from: "Tomr2"worldwide though right?
Right, but they arent going to initiate a recall in just one area of one market, they'd have to do it worldwide...
You have to put these things into perspective though, out of 60,000 cars built (as of a year ago - theres possibly another 10,000 now) we as enthusiasts have only really heard of a handful of cases. Theres been no stories in the press about MR2's suddenly grinding to an expensive halt at the side of the road like the MG-F, and the car continues to shine through in reliability surveys... Yes there is a problem, but in the big scheme of things, its not that bad. Certainly not bad enough to warrant a massive recall campaign.
Perhaps a recall is a bit over the top, but im sure I or one of us on here would have read something about the enigne being ( I have to say it sh*t if it only lasts 20 - 30k. Being a sports car and being made for those slighly, should I say heavy footed )
I think many of us on hear have read something about teh engine being shit.
accord to toyota gb there is no fault with the engine or with the pre-cats.
but the techs at the dealership say different and because toyota gb say there is no problem then there will be no recall.also the techs will not put anything in writing as i found out on monday.(cant really blame them as it would cost them there job)
i have lost all faith in toyota gb as i have recieved 2 different versions of the engine problem but cant do a thing about it.
its annoying that i chose toyota because of there track record with engine reliabilty only to be told the engine is faulty even before i mentioned that i had missed a service by the tech at the dealership in bromsgrove.
me missing my service may or may not have contributed to the problem i now have but considering the number of post regards to the pre-cat problem and toyota gb still insist that there is nothing wrong it makes me wonder whether a main dealer can be trusted.
sorry but i had to get that off my chest. s:D :D s:D
But it still comes down to one thing - you arrived for the service with the oil level not even registering on the dipstick - how can you be sure that the problem was caused by an inherant design flaw and not your basic lack of mechanical empathy for the engine and it's requirements for lubrication.
Given that the oil hadn't been changed in 20,000 miles, it's not unreasonable or excessive for it have been used up by the engine in that time. Once the level had dropped as low as you reported, the VVTi will probably have stopped working (leading to a huge loss of power above ~3500rpm), and the wear rate on the cylinder bores will have massively increased.
There is no way that this failure can be blamed on the pre-cat problem that we are currently gathering information on. Yes - it could be the cause, but we will never know due to the lack of basic maintenance.