I'm just about to order the PE turbokit from MWR, but after hours of reading on this and SC forum I have a few questions:
1)
What parts should I order? I would think apart from the kit I should order the EManage. What good would the different kind of harness do my install? Are they really needed? Is the Profec E-01 worth the dime?
2)
The PE doesn't have an IC, would this grately effect the reliability of the engine given the high FI airtemp? Does anyone know the safe operating temperature of the FI? I was thinking about starting with just the PE Turbo (with emanage), and then add an IC / aquamist as another project later on.
3)
Has anyone mounted tempsensors on the exhaust / FI, if so, can these be displayed on the emanage/profec screen?
Ps. My priority is reliability before performance (obviousely to a certain degree).
Having been through this there is a lot to consider and the order of things is important.
1. I have had to replace my clutch because of the extra power so you should consider this as a possible necessity although some have got away with the stock clutch. It will cost about £1000 for this.
2. The emanage and the Profec are superb and highly recomended, you should get the IGN & INJ harnesses.
3. The Aquamist 2D water injection is superb and highly recomended and you won't really need a IC if you have this.
4. The PLXM-300 Wide band O2 sensor and A/F Ratio meter is also highly recomended with this tunning can be done yourself and you can monitor your cars fuel to check you are not to rich or lean.
The order of install should be.
emanage & Profec
Clutch & Flywheel ( Optional or Necessary )
Wide Band O2
Turbo running at 4.5 psi
Aquamist
And after this you will have an awsome car.......... s:D :D s:D
What DAZ400 says is good advise.
Personally I wouldn't order the clutch (+optional flywheel) at the same time, but I certainly would budget for one within 3-12 month period.
I would consider some form of charge-cooling as essential. Be that water injection or some form of intercooler.
I'd also consider budgetting for a better exhaust. Serious gains can be made without adjusting the boost by having a suitable one made up.
Quote from: "mph"What DAZ400 says is good advise.
Personally I wouldn't order the clutch (+optional flywheel) at the same time, but I certainly would budget for one within 3-12 month period.
I would consider some form of charge-cooling as essential. Be that water injection or some form of intercooler.
I'd also consider budgetting for a better exhaust. Serious gains can be made without adjusting the boost by having a suitable one made up.
DAZ and mph, thanks for the advices. BTW I already have a dual stainless TM. I normally do not perform flying starts, so I think the clutch will last a bit longer, but a celika clutch (from 2zzfe) is from what I read ok?
But is charge-cooling essential for reliability with the PE kit? I know cooling gives more BHP (with IC), but reliability is more important for me in this round.
If I should go for an aquamist kit, which is the better? Cost / value. And are these kit easy to install? What pricerange are we talking about?
I would go for the RPS or the ACT clutch.
I suggest doing the clutch & flywheel before the other bits as Toyota get a bit funny when they see a turbo fitted, and will charge extra for fitting as they have to remove bits and they claim no responsabillity for putting it all back together right.
Cop out really.
depends who's fitting your turbo.
I wouldn't use Toota for any of it if I could avoid it. Okay SMT owners have little choice as it needs re-syncing but if your a manual. I'd find a good local specialist for the lot.
Cue me.... again.
PE turbo, no IC or WI at 6.5psi for 11months.Just the e-manage for tuning.
No problems, clutch is fine and is now holding it's own at 9psi.
I thankyou. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "2kmk3"I already have a dual stainless TM.
Most aftermarket exhausts run 1.75" pipe, as that's what joins to the primary CAT. Ideally you want 2.5" pipe all the way back to the turbo.
Quote from: "2kmk3"I normally do not perform flying starts, so I think the clutch will last a bit longer, but a celika clutch (from 2zzfe) is from what I read ok?
Neither do I (no choice - SMT). I *think* TTE will be recommending the Corolla T-sport clutch, but don't hold me to that.
Quote from: "2kmk3"But is charge-cooling essential for reliability with the PE kit? I know cooling gives more BHP (with IC), but reliability is more important for me in this round.
Heat is bad, not just for power but for alsorts of other components too: oil, O2 sensors, turbos, valves. In short, anything that keeps temperatures done is a good thing. It's all about risk: how likely is it that running without while cause damage to the engine? Who knows! Ian's been happy the last year running without. I made sure I had a good intercooler setup from day one. YMMV as we say.
Quote from: "markiii"depends who's fitting your turbo.
I wouldn't use Toota for any of it if I could avoid it. Okay SMT owners have little choice as it needs re-syncing but if your a manual. I'd find a good local specialist for the lot.
Noone in Norway has yet fitted a turbo on their MK3 (as far as I know), so I'd probably be amongst the first. Which is why I'm thinking about doing the install myself. I've read up about the PE kit, and it seems quite simple to install. Toyota in this country often doesn't know anything besides what's in their manual, would never trust a turbo install from them.
Local specialist is in the number of one, and they've never done nothing but reprogramming the original ECU for the MK3 (at least that's what they say).
BTW Martin, how does the SMT hold up with the extra power? I hope it's not like tuning a S4 automatic - after a short while you'll be happy s:?: :?: s:?: spending lots on a new transmission s:D :D s:D
QuoteToyota in this country often doesn't know anything besides what's in their manual, would never trust a turbo install from them.
Local specialist is in the number of one, and they've never done nothing but reprogramming the original ECU for the MK3 (at least that's what they say).
you should be fine even w/o IC, as long as it is properly tuned and doing low psi , and mwr does that already... You can get Corolla/Celica 2zz-ge clutch and be fine (which what TTE told martin but he cant remember it now), although I would check the prices and see if the aftermarket heavy duty clutch will be actually cheaper... of course, IC is a plus...
As to toyota doing the turbo - no reason for it, why pay extra high charges, and they might not do it thinking that you will ask them to pay if something goes wrong. local shop that is experienced in tuning would be the safest solution...
Interestingly enough, Toyota manuals for cars are just huge and very well written, and if every Toyota mechanic in the country would do exactly as written in there, well i very much doubt anyone would ever complain about Toyota mechanics s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "2kmk3"BTW Martin, how does the SMT hold up with the extra power? I hope it's not like tuning a S4 automatic - after a short while you'll be happy s:?: :?: s:?: spending lots on a new transmission s:D :D s:D
The SMT is fine with the power / uprated clutch / lightweight flywheel. The length of the gear change is exacerbated by coming off the power and back on, but it's no longer, and possibly shorter for down-shifts. The only thing to note is that the SMT setup really doesn't like (read: incompatible with) a dump valve even if in recirculate mode. I had awful problems until I took it out, then it all worked fine - oh well, lesson learnt!
I was not suggesting Toyota fit the turbo only the clutch & flywheel if you have a SMT car as this can only be done at the dealer.
Martin I have fitted a Bailey dump valve to atmosphere and have no problems with the SMT.
2kmk3 - If you have any mechanical knowledge, then fitting the PE turbo will be a days job. Half the people on here will be gutting their pre cats soon, this involves removing the stock manifold, that's the job nearly done for the turbo install. Just bolt the turbo and new manifold on instead. Longest part of the job is removing the sump and drilling it for the oil return line.
Ian: And probably also some time on changing the fuel pressure regulator and connecting the EManage / E-01. I'm not a mechanical genious, but as long as I've got some documentation I should get by. s:) :) s:)
DAZ400: My car is a 5-MT. Is it a big job to change the clutch oneself?
All of you guys with turbo: Do you all use EManage with the complete set of harnesses? Do any of you measure the exhaust temp / FI temp?
I installed the FPR and the e-manage before the turbo install. Did on seperate days so if i had any running problems i knew which was causing the problems. The e-manage can go on as it is tuned for boost anyway, so with no turbo on it is dormant anyway.
I wouldn't want to do the clutch install myself, without the use of a pit or a lift. It's not a difficult job on a MT, even with the turbo installed it's still no harder to get to than if it was NA. I would leave the clutch as your car is MT, as i said i've been turbo'd a year now with the stock clutch. I've bought a heavy duty clutch ready to go on if/when it does go, i suggest you do the same, just incase.
You need all the harness' if you want to do things right. The ignition as you need to take timing out. It will knock if you don't.And the injector so you can add fuel directly with adding to the duty cycle instead of altering the A/F map, which can be harder to tune.
No EGT probe or anything in the air stream for temperatures. Got a wideband O2 that is linked to my profec so i know exactly what's happening back there. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "DAZ400"Martin I have fitted a Bailey dump valve to atmosphere and have no problems with the SMT.
Hmm, I'm guessing the eManage playing with the injectors directly overcomes the problems I had. Will be interesting to meet up on Sunday and compare!
2kmk3 Is your car an SMT ?
If it is then it has to go to a Toyota dealer for the clucth change as they have to mess with the SMT and do a diag and learning process afterwards.
Martin my car does not run with any boost at the moment, because of the clutch slip, all booked in for tuesday to install the new bits. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "DAZ400"2kmk3 Is your car an SMT ?
If it is then it has to go to a Toyota dealer for the clucth change as they have to mess with the SMT and do a diag and learning process afterwards.
Daz mate read up a few. He already said it's a 5sp MT. s:D :D s:D
Thanks everyone! s:) :) s:) I believe I will order the profec, emanage and all the harnesses with the PE turbo kit for a starter, and then expand, like you said, with wideband O2 and aquamist (should it be needed).
How is your turboed cars in everyday driving? Do you rely just as much on the engine as before the turbo install? Do any of you have any regrets about your installs? Wrong turbo kit / missing some parts / should never have installed etc...
Quote from: "2kmk3"Thanks everyone! s:) :) s:) I believe I will order the profec, emanage and all the harnesses with the PE turbo kit for a starter, and then expand, like you said, with wideband O2 and aquamist (should it be needed).
How is your turboed cars in everyday driving? Do you rely just as much on the engine as before the turbo install? Do any of you have any regrets about your installs? Wrong turbo kit / missing some parts / should never have installed etc...
Answers in order -
When your driving normally, it drives no different to a stock car. It's really only a beast when your flooring the throtttle or atleast 3/4 throttle.
I only have the '2. I haven't had one day without mine on the road and that includes the day i installed the turbo. It is argueably more reliable now as the stock manifold and pre-cats are now gone.
I've no regrets about my install. The PE seems to cover everything including fuel by adding a RRFPR. Luckily many others have installed this kit before so the small problems like the O2 sensor positioning being terrible and having to be rewired to read from one, have already been done and documented, or i probably would still have problems now s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Quote from: "2kmk3"Thanks everyone! s:) :) s:) I believe I will order the profec, emanage and all the harnesses with the PE turbo kit for a starter, and then expand, like you said, with wideband O2 and aquamist (should it be needed).
How is your turboed cars in everyday driving? Do you rely just as much on the engine as before the turbo install? Do any of you have any regrets about your installs? Wrong turbo kit / missing some parts / should never have installed etc...
Answers in order -
When your driving normally, it drives no different to a stock car. It's really only a beast when your flooring the throtttle or atleast 3/4 throttle.
I only have the '2. I haven't had one day without mine on the road and that includes the day i installed the turbo. It is argueably more reliable now as the stock manifold and pre-cats are now gone.
I've no regrets about my install. The PE seems to cover everything including fuel by adding a RRFPR. Luckily many others have installed this kit before so the small problems like the O2 sensor positioning being terrible and having to be rewired to read from one, have already been done and documented, or i probably would still have problems now s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Sounds excellent s:D :D s:D Could you elaborate just a bit about the O2 sensor positioning?
OK.
The 2 O2 sensors are placed in the pipe in line, after the turbo, which is after the manifold. The second 1 is directly behind the first so as the gases flow past, the first O2 splits the gases as they go around it and most miss the 2nd O2 altogether. This makes the ECU read the mixture incorrectly for cylinders 2&4, so it adjusts to compensate, which isn't needed. The now rich gas passes again, the first O2 picks this up, thinks it's 1&3 running rich so leans them out, the 2nd misses it again so richens 2&4.
This just carries on and you end up with 2 very lean cylinders and 2 pig rich. Which makes the car run like crap. This is a must mod on the PE.
Thanks a lot! This I didn't know. What a bummer from PE s:shock: :shock: s:shock: But I guess drilling a new hole and welding on a new nut on a different location would also fix this? Which would be the better? Relocation or rewiring?
Oh yeh, you could go that way and move it further down the pipe, but rewiring works just aswell.And costs nothing s:wink: :wink: s:wink: . You then also only have 1 O2 sensor to replace if it goes bad or you go wideband etc.
Thanks a lot, Ian! Great tip as always! s:) :) s:)
Ian and I can thouroghly recommend going the wideband route we have found them superb. It gives you the piece of mind that your engine is getting the right amount of fuel and with it it is easy to tune yourself. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "DAZ400"Ian and I can thouroghly recommend going the wideband route we have found them superb. It gives you the piece of mind that your engine is getting the right amount of fuel and with it it is easy to tune yourself. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Sounds like I should go for the wideband O2 aswell s:) :) s:) But what do I need to do the tuning? Is it all controlled by the profec / emanage? Do I need any laptop sw? What values are good / bad? Is it ok to put the sensor into the second hole on the PE pipe? Lots of questions, but if you have the time I'd really appreciate it. s:) :) s:)
If you get the profec then you can have the values displayed on there but if not, the kit i have has a black box with the display on there.
You will be altering your fuel map on the e-manage and watching the values alter on the display. It replaces the first O2 sensor and the box has an narrowband output that goes back into the ECU to keep that happy.
Fuel ratio your looking for at idle and part throttle 14.8.
W.O.T on boost your aiming for 12.1 - 12.8.
Best go through this in more detail if you do decide to go wideband.
What we have done is replaced our NB with the WB and it comes with a stand alone digital controller & display but there is 2 outputs on the controller one is a NB output which we now connect to the ECU in place of the origional sensor. The 2nd output is a linear wideband output which we have connected to the profec so we can display the A/F ratio on the profec next to any other of the data you are displaying on the profec.
It will be possible to tune with just the profec as this is a programmer as well but we used a laptop as it is slightly easier you need 2 people one to drive one to watch the displays and make changes.
All you do is whatch the A/F and if it is rich > 12.8 take some fuel out if it is lean add some fuel.
you need to be 14.7 Stoich at cruise closed loop and no boost, under boost you want to be about 12.8.
Ian drove and I programmed which turned out to be very easy only have to change about 12 numbers that easy. s:D :D s:D
This is great! s:D :D s:D Which of the kits would suit me best? Seems there's quite a few to choose between. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
We bought the PLX-M300 from PLX devices.
plxdevices.com
s:wink: :wink: s:wink: