me thinks i got mister jobs worth mot tester today he failed the 2 on emissions due to the pre-cats being removed,so wondering whats now the best way forward ? i don't want to go putting new pre-cats in only for them to knacker up the engine any idea's ...$%&@ing pre-cats. i explained this to the guy about the trouble these things have caused in the past and he weren't having any of it .....jobs worth!!!.....................mind you i should have known better when i took the 4x4 to them he failed that on a numberplate bulb..
for uk emission levels you dont need precats at all, just a healthy main cat. if it failed it will either be due to the main cat not being healthy and you will then need to ask the question y? also if your burning oil this will increase the hc count i think and again it will fail. so the question is what is the cars age / millage and any noticable oil usage?
+1
How did he know the precats had been removed? Either you told him, or he knows a bit about these cars and took a lucky guess!
What actually are your emission test results?
he told me that a new law came in last year that before a certain age pre-cats must be fitted .the engine had a re-build about 70,000 miles by the son-in-law who is a mech, its now got 84414 on the clock only using the normal amount of oil. 2000 model must be time for a new cat then.
Quote from: "ray835"me thinks i got mister jobs worth mot tester today he failed the 2 on emissions due to the pre-cats being removed,so wondering whats now the best way forward ? i don't want to go putting new pre-cats in only for them to knacker up the engine any idea's ...$%&@ing pre-cats. i explained this to the guy about the trouble these things have caused in the past and he weren't having any of it .....jobs worth!!!.....................mind you i should have known better when i took the 4x4 to them he failed that on a numberplate bulb..
I take / taken my car to Toyota for the past 4 years with a Zero manifold / 200 CEL cat and it's never failed - so I would find someone who knows what they are talking about.
Quote from: "ray835"he told me that a new law came in last year that before a certain age pre-cats must be fitted .the engine had a re-build about 70,000 miles by the son-in-law who is a mech, its now got 84414 on the clock only using the normal amount of oil. 2000 model must be time for a new cat then.
What a load of Tosh!! As stated above all you need is the Main Cat in the UK!! Also have your engine warmed up ,if possible,before the Test
tick over was better than average but when he cranked it up to 3,500 revs it was high 0.3% vol 0.77 %vol on first fast idle test and on the second fas idle test 0.3 % vol 0.72 %vol whatever that means.
he just out for money take it somewhere and ask for just an emission test to see and get exact figures unless you got true figures from him. sort out what needs doing then go back and say all done retest and NEVER go back!!!!!!!!
Quote from: "2 of the left"Quote from: "ray835"he told me that a new law came in last year that before a certain age pre-cats must be fitted .the engine had a re-build about 70,000 miles by the son-in-law who is a mech, its now got 84414 on the clock only using the normal amount of oil. 2000 model must be time for a new cat then.
What a load of Tosh!! As stated above all you need is the Main Cat in the UK!! Also have your engine warmed up ,if possible,before the Test
took it for a good run first
Quote from: "ray835"he told me that a new law came in last year that before a certain age pre-cats must be fitted
If a catalytic converter was fitted as standard then a catalytic must be present on the car during the MOT. This means your main cat, pre-cats are not the catalytic converter and are not required to pass the MOT...
Quote from: "theaa"A catalytic convertor fitted as original equipment but missing will be a reason for failure.
So are you saying he actually said the pre-cats beings out are why you failed (which again how did he know?)? If those are the actual figures then you failed and it's a problem with your main cat, nothing to do with the pre-cats so if he told you that then he doesn't know what he's talking about. Take it somewhere else.
he didn't know said i should take it for a diagnostic test to find out whats going on....the son-in-law mentioned to them the pre-cats had been removed . the place is next door to the son-in-laws friends garage thinking they would be ok .the only thing i can think of is that when i had an injector failure it could have goosed the cat up and haven't used it much since then and still have half a tank of go go juice with red x in it
Mine was .052 when they first tested it, he revved it like mad and got it down below .2
Job done
he also said de-cat manifolds are illegal and have stamped on them for track use only s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
will this cat be ok.. m http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... lIwQ6UXqBi (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTD63PRwPGa6jelTe3jX2PN4VGnc5JpcCj-VBoJy5lIwQ6UXqBi) m
Quote from: "ray835"he also said de-cat manifolds are illegal and have stamped on them for track use only s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Pre cats are totally different from main cats.
Was there an oxygen tent nearby? Frankly I am amazed that this guy has enough brain function to breathe unaided.
He is conversing fecal matter through his rectum.
Quote from: "ray835"he also said de-cat manifolds are illegal and have stamped on them for track use only s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I will say that bloke is full of sh*t, he's got to be winding you up or he's looking to take you to the cleaners for a new manifold at a nice £1000+ Take it to Toyota let them do your test.
son-in-laws a mechanic so repairs only cost me the price of the bits s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "ray835"son-in-laws a mechanic so repairs only cost me the price of the bits s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
£1000 is just the bit s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "FGrob"Quote from: "ray835"son-in-laws a mechanic so repairs only cost me the price of the bits s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
£1000 is just the bit s:D :D s:D
In fact bring it over to Stoke - Pinkstone Toyota, £27 for an MOT at the moment.
Quote from: "FGrob"Quote from: "FGrob"Quote from: "ray835"son-in-laws a mechanic so repairs only cost me the price of the bits s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
£1000 is just the bit s:D :D s:D
In fact bring it over to Stoke - Pinkstone Toyota, £27 for an MOT at the moment.
just cost me £40 for a failed test can't take it anywhere else it's logged in on the vosa system as a failure
mind you got a good excuse to swmbo, to get a nice shiny s/steel system now for my 2 s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Copy of MOT rules here See section 7.1
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4318326/mot-inspection-manual-pdf-2-9-meg?da=y
How would they know on a retest that you had not changed the manifold since the first test for one that had a pre cat.
They cant dismantle anything to look.
now we've hung drawn n quartered and burned this chap at the stake......any idea's on how to get the emissions down too keep mr jobsworth happy s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Yeah take it somewhere else, get it tested by a non moron!
My car has no precal, sports pipe, induction kit etc, IT PASSED.
Go away from Mr helmet cheese and take it elsewhere, if all else fails drive it fast before you get there
Quote from: "ray835"now we've hung drawn n quartered and burned this chap at the stake......any idea's on how to get the emissions down too keep mr jobsworth happy s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
It's going to get worse. The point is though, in this case that a different tester, not told about precat issue, cannot tell wether the precat is there or not without dismantling parts. Today he cant do that.
It might be that if an MOT tester knew about the precat issue, and that if a CHE manifold were fitted, he could fail an MOT test as a standard Cat is clearly missing. The Test does not differentiate between Pre Cats or standard Cats.
Talk to the Motorcycle community they are up in arms over many of the limitations the new MOT is throwing up.
I thin in this case the Original Tester was a little OTT, but reading the rules he has to work to, make his position difficult.
You can take it anywhere you like for an mot, this guy is a stunning con artist.
sent from a planet somewhere nearby
Quote from: "Steve Green"Quote from: "ray835"now we've hung drawn n quartered and burned this chap at the stake......any idea's on how to get the emissions down too keep mr jobsworth happy s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
It's going to get worse. The point is though, in this case that a different tester, not told about precat issue, cannot tell wether the precat is there or not without dismantling parts. Today he cant do that.
It might be that if an MOT tester knew about the precat issue, and that if a CHE manifold were fitted, he could fail an MOT test as a standard Cat is clearly missing. The Test does not differentiate between Pre Cats or standard Cats.
Talk to the Motorcycle community they are up in arms over many of the limitations the new MOT is throwing up.
I think in this case the Original Tester was a little OTT, but reading the rules he has to work to, make his position difficult.
I think it all boils down to "what is a pre-cat" - it's certainly not your main cat as these are before it and are fitted within the manifold, so by fitting a none standard manifold you are not removing the main cat which is the what is being tested in the MOT.
tbh sooner its sorted i can get back out on the road n the roof off before winter comes .....been that busy with work the 2 hasn't had much use this year.
We are debating symantics and interpretation.
It's called a Pre Cat, (a Catalytic converter with another name) and was fitted as standard. So the reason for failure. A catalytic converter missing where one was fitted as standard is valid.
Just how the OP shoud proceed,is to find a friendly MOT tester who is prepared to accept the emissions numbers as proof of remedial work carried out.
Surely then, its the "pre" that matters?
Also we are debating semantics.
Basically, the car either passes the emissions test or it doesn't, it's nothing to do with looking for 'cats'.
As Richard said, it could be a failed main cat or the engine may be burning too much oil, the mixture could be too rich or the MAF could need a clean or the O2 sensors could be faulty etc.
What would I do? I'd put a code reader on it to see if there were any stored codes, I'd clean the MAF because it's easy and, as Totty said, thrash it a bit before the test and make sure they stick the probe up the pipe s:scared: :scared: s:scared: before the engine gets cold.
Good luck!
(If precats were an issue then most of the regulars on here would never pass an MOT).
Many of these threads go off topic to an extent, as it is VERY simple :
Take it somewhere else
The MOT tester is taking you for a ride. Simple as that.
It is also BS that you "can't take it anywhere else it's logged in on the vosa system as a failure".
Take it somewhere else, never look back to that garage, and live a happier life forever more.
Quote from: "M R 2"Surely then, its the "pre" that matters?
Also we are debating semantics.
Typo, sorry.
MOT test only says Catalytic Converter, and whether that is the first, second, pre, post or other is absolutely irrelevant.
These rules came into force in January 2012. Few MOT testers would be aware of the presence of the Pre Catalytic Converters on an MR2 so will pass a car on emissions only, otherwise the rules he must follow are clear.
This problem will get worse for motorcyclists and the car modification community at large as the legislators apply more and more restriction on what modifications can be legally carried out on a standard production vehicle.
This is the very tip of an iceberg that may come back and bite if the rules are applied retrospecively.
Every time I take my Kit car to a new MOT tester I have to show him the section that says my Zetec powered car is a visual only emission test!
chicken or egg s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
the maf sensor did come to mind ...the fuel economy on a long run is very good, went to scotland last year for our hols at a steady 60mph was averaging 50-55 mpg which is good compared with the 4x4 which i only get 30mpg ....
whats the best way to clean the maf sensor anyone...
m http://www.spydermagazine.com/2002/Marc ... _clean.htm (http://www.spydermagazine.com/2002/March/maf_clean/maf_clean.htm) m
cheers for that will give it a go ......just need to know we're to get some carb cleaner from now
Try eBay
Quote from: "Steve Green"MOT test only says Catalytic Converter, and whether that is the first, second, pre, post or other is absolutely irrelevant.
These rules came into force in January 2012. Few MOT testers would be aware of the presence of the Pre Catalytic Converters on an MR2 so will pass a car on emissions only, otherwise the rules he must follow are clear.
I was thinking this too and I hope I'm wrong. The new 2012 MOT rules can depending on how you read them mean removing the pre cats is a fail. 99% of the time the MOT tester would not know the MR2 had them and would not check they are present so would just do an emissions test.
tweeks is only down the road they should have some
Quote from: "stargazer30"Quote from: "Steve Green"MOT test only says Catalytic Converter, and whether that is the first, second, pre, post or other is absolutely irrelevant.
These rules came into force in January 2012. Few MOT testers would be aware of the presence of the Pre Catalytic Converters on an MR2 so will pass a car on emissions only, otherwise the rules he must follow are clear.
I was thinking this too and I hope I'm wrong. The new 2012 MOT rules can depending on how you read them mean removing the pre cats is a fail. 99% of the time the MOT tester would not know the MR2 had them and would not check they are present so would just do an emissions test.
so everyone thats got a de-cat manifold is well stuffed next time they go for a test
Well the moral of the story is - Don't say a word about Precats - Have a fully warmed up engine as the 2 goes into test - Should it fail emission test then check/change the main cat- clean the MAF and go for Retest!! (Not necessarily in that order!!) s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Or find a really nice tester and **cough** buy them a drink
Quote from: "stargazer30"Quote from: "Steve Green"MOT test only says Catalytic Converter, and whether that is the first, second, pre, post or other is absolutely irrelevant.
These rules came into force in January 2012. Few MOT testers would be aware of the presence of the Pre Catalytic Converters on an MR2 so will pass a car on emissions only, otherwise the rules he must follow are clear.
I was thinking this too and I hope I'm wrong. The new 2012 MOT rules can depending on how you read them mean removing the pre cats is a fail. 99% of the time the MOT tester would not know the MR2 had them and would not check they are present so would just do an emissions test.
Well lets see what happens in a couple of weeks time when I take mine to Toyota for it's normal MOT, no changes for the last three years to the exhaust sytem, so if anyone is going to pick up on it, I'm sure it will be Toyota - Don't you think
will keep my fingers crossed for you .... s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
apparently a re-mapping is also an immediate fail ...
Quote from: "ray835"will keep my fingers crossed for you .... s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Toyota are more worried about scratching the car with the jack then anything else, in fact last year they changed the MOT jack so they could lift the car without causing any issues.
I've had an aftermarket manifold (Che then Zero) on my car for the last 6 1/2 years, even during it's warranty period it was never questioned, am I worried - well yes but that's only normal when you take any car for MOT.
Quote from: "ray835"apparently a re-mapping is also an immediate fail ....
Well that confirms the bloke is a complete sarsehole arsehole sarsehole then - you can't re-map a standard ECU, also how will he tell the car is fitted with a replacement ECU without removing all the rear box- not allowed according to the rules. This sounds more like a wind up than a person talking sense.
the thing that peed me off it passed all the major safety checks with flying colours for it to be road worthy.......
got the mapping and chipping info from another forum m http://www.smartz.co.uk/showthread.php? ... -MOT-scope (http://www.smartz.co.uk/showthread.php?14263-2011-or-2012-VOSA-changes-to-MOT-scope) m
Your best bet is to take the 2 to another test centre !! AND forget all the BS given by the wind-up merchant!!
Well it seems I wasn't so far off the mark a couple of months ago after all?
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=38775
Like I said then, all it takes is a jobs worth to ruin your day, irrespective of whether the main cat is doing its job properly it seems this guy would fail your 2 anyway.
This is all heading towards not being allowed to modify your car from the way it came out of the showroom.
I can see not too far from now the tester will put your reg into the VOSA computer when they start the test and the computer will list the spec of the car the day it came out of the factory and any deviation from that will result in a fail?
Quote from: "AckersMR2"Well it seems I wasn't so far off the mark a couple of months ago after all?
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=38775
Like I said then, all it takes is a jobs worth to ruin your day, irrespective of whether the main cat is doing its job properly it seems this guy would fail your 2 anyway.
This is all heading towards not being allowed to modify your car from the way it came out of the showroom.
I can see not too far from now the tester will put your reg into the VOSA computer when they start the test and the computer will list the spec of the car the day it came out of the factory and any deviation from that will result in a fail?
YUP - Big BROTHER!!! - We'll all end up like the East Germans driving around in the equivalent to Trabants!! (At least we won't need headlights - Those things glowed in the dark (Re-constituted nuclear waste!!)
I dont like to be the messenger of bad news but there is lots of legislation that is bubbling under the surface that will have an impact on car enthusiasts and modifiers.
The Kit Car world is on the case where some of the original donor vehicles are now very rare and parts unavailable so cannot be replaced like for like. It wont be long before we cannot replace parts without having a CE mark, introduced long after the original parts ceased manufacture.
The end of the world is nigh
There seems to be a lot of doom and gloom in this thread, I think I'll worry about it when it happens, also you will find most higher quality components are already CE marked so I certainly not going to worry about that. If you are that concerned about these changes then sell the car.
Quote from: "FGrob"If you are that concerned about these changes then sell the car.
If it were me and I was sure that it was just about pre-cats, I would change back to a Toyota manifold (with pre-cats), take it for the test and then put the new one on again. Pain in the ass but it is nice to beat the system instead of being a victim. There are always plenty of cheap Toyota manifolds floating about on fleabay (but maybe the price in going to go up if the breakers are reading this s:scared: :scared: s:scared: ).
Well based on my research...
MR2 with stock manifold gutted/stock CAT - Highly unlikely to fail unless the emissions are off/CAT is bad. You'd need a clue'd up MOT tester and they would have to pull the o2 sensor or you'd have to tell them the pre cats were gone.
MR2 with aftermarket manifold/stock CAT - Still unlikely to fail unless its a clue'd up tester and he reads the legislation to mean pre cats too
MR2 with full aftermarket exhaust from the header down, sports CAT - friendly tester needed. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
MR2 with turbo, no cats at all, re-map, big fook off exhaust - erm good luck s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
My MR2 with TTE turbo - Its has TUV approved metallic pre cats and a stock CAT so I am all right jack. (I hope) s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
Quote from: "stargazer30"MR2 with turbo, no cats at all, re-map, big fook off exhaust - erm good luck s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
I find my friendly tester works there too s;) ;) s;)
I agree on the rest, A lot of people will have a gutted stock manifold and there's no way they'd know they're gone in there unless you tell them. They don't take plastic nappies off to check under the car for an MOT so they're not going to go taking out o2 sensors that they could break and potentially have to replace.
My car only just passed the emissions test. My garage said that if they took the car in again, did another test, it would probably be very different. The emissions test is not what you call 'accurate'.
Guys, if you have not already, have a look at http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=40064&p=473561#p473561 and the way things are going.
I knew changes were afoot but not this quickly.
Quote from: "onion86"Quote from: "stargazer30"MR2 with turbo, no cats at all, re-map, big fook off exhaust - erm good luck s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
I find my friendly tester works there too s;) ;) s;)
I agree on the rest, A lot of people will have a gutted stock manifold and there's no way they'd know they're gone in there unless you tell them. They don't take plastic nappies off to check under the car for an MOT so they're not going to go taking out o2 sensors that they could break and potentially have to replace.
I agree 2 of the 3 advisories on my mot were unable to chech due to nappy and engine covr.
Take it to another tester as advised and see how you get on.
Quote from: "stargazer30"Well based on my research...
MR2 with turbo, no cats at all, re-map, big fook off exhaust - erm good luck s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
My 2000 car passed with this kit with flying colours, not an issue! Does it vary so much?
:
When I took my V6 for MOT in April (after the "New" regs came in), the guy told me that the regs were proposed, and had been put back.......he also said that most MOT testers are confused as to what is supposed to be changing, what has changed and how to interpret the new laws......
Upshot is, my V6 with no CAT whatsoever passed the test: "all good" was what the tester said to me when I walked in to collect the car....! s:D :D s:D
And no...this wasn't a "friendly" MOT test centre...it was one that just happened to be round the corner from where I was working...... First time Id' ever walked in there....!
As mentioned: a reading's a reading. I think virtually ANY engine in good condition will pass the basic test: and the various figures for post 2001 cars are derived from a new car with new CAT's. They allow 20%-ish for acceptable wear'n'tear over time..? s:? :? s:?
The original emissions tests were introduced for this exact reason: to get the "smokers" off the roads.... s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I think they're certainly going to pinch the emissions figures down as the years go by, basically forcing people to buy new cars, as any significant engine wear will be detrimental to readings?
It''ll boost the rebuilt engines industry, though......and we must look on the bright side (theres ALWAYS a plus point!) : you get more power from a rebuilt engine...!? s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
well i took it for a re-test after son-in-law who's a mech did a bit of tweeking and it failed again ! the cats ^*&$ed ...so ithink it,s bout time i treated her so new cat and a shiny s/steel twin tip cobra exhaust should be here on tuesday.....can't wait s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
as you all know my 2 failed on emissions on its mot so got a new cat which cost me £284 plus a nice cobra s/steel twin pipe system total outlay with all the bits nearly £800 in total took it back this morning for a re-test and guess.......... yup the f%*$@*g T^*%$ failed it yet again s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Engine issue? Bet it at least sounds nice now...? s:? :? s:? Not that that's much use if you cant use the car on the road
he recon's it's chucking in to much fuel............it's drives perfectly and its good on fuel..........
it's now out of the 10 day re-test time limit so i shall be taking it elsewhere .
to a friendly tester to get it back ont road and then sort problem out with a diagnostic check
Mine failed on emissions yesterday. Took it for a blast up the motorway to clear the crap out and warm up the cat and it passed when I got back. Assume you tried that?
[MOD]Topics merged .... they are the same topic really [/MOD]
So you took it back to the original mot tester who was full of sh-t?
You would probably get an engine light if it was running rich, and running rich is nothing to do with the catalyst.
You have cleaned the maf and reset the ecu?
Quote from: "Two's Company"Mine failed on emissions yesterday. Took it for a blast up the motorway to clear the crap out and warm up the cat and it passed when I got back. Assume you tried that?
new cat from ces exhausts . maf sensor also cleaned
You may need a new maf. They don't last forever, so could be up for replacement.
iv'e now got a brand new MOT s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
and you achieved this miracle......how....(apart from leaving son in law at home...)
Come on,finish the story properly! s:? :? s:?
son in law took it to his dads mates garage but he first looked up the manufactures spec first and came out at 0.03 with pre cats , put it on the machine told his dads mate it had been de catted so he said thats ok it should read 0.05 ..............and yes it came out at 0.05 said that was fine......the other t%$$%& was insisting it should be 0.01 how the xxxx can you get it lower than the manufactures spec THE END......
Quote from: "thekickinside"and you achieved this miracle......how....(apart from leaving son in law at home...)
the son in law did a great job trying to sort things out ,it's my fault for taking it to this eejit in the first place and wasting £40...
Quote from: "ray835"Quote from: "thekickinside"and you achieved this miracle......how....(apart from leaving son in law at home...)
the son in law did a great job trying to sort things out ,it's my fault for taking it to this eejit in the first place and wasting £40...
Glad you're sorted, maybe the eejit should be named and shamed so no one else is led a lie s;-) ;-) s;-)
sent from a planet somewhere nearby