Hi Folks,
My MR2 now smokes like a steam engine. The link on Youtube perfectly shows it:
m http://youtu.be/T0FBBLZdMGQ (http://youtu.be/T0FBBLZdMGQ) m
My post cat O2 sensor has gone, could this be the reason?
Thanks
Quote from: "OptimisticRed"My post cat O2 sensor has gone, could this be the reason?
Nope wouldn't be caused by that. I'm not too knowledgeable with smoking engines but I'm sure someone else will be along to help, doesn't look good though s:? :? s:?
Hi,
No idea either I'm afraid but the same video was referenced in this thread...
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=44340 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=44340) l
Andy
could be running rich because of the faulty sensor
Quote from: "Jay67"could be running rich because of the faulty sensor
Not a post cat one.
Quote from: "onion86"Quote from: "Jay67"could be running rich because of the faulty sensor
Not a post cat one.
oops, misread it, ignore me s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
That's mine...
Can't say I have a resolution.
It's not running nicely though. It ran beautifully on our trip to Hartside though. Can't put my finger on it.
It's definitely running rich a lot, and then other times it seems fine. When it runs rich it smells of petrol and when cold the car idles real low and stutters until it gets going a bit.
Open to suggestions because I'm sick of it too.
My bank 1 sensor1 (right side) heater element is kaput. I know that.
Running rich might mean the MAF sensor is faulty or in need of cleaning.
Quote from: "Jon_G"Running rich might mean the MAF sensor is faulty or in need of cleaning.
Anybody know if I can test the MAF with a multimeter? What values would I be looking at?
Water temperature sensor? Been a reeeeaaaaalllly long time since I've looked at a BGB, but running really rich when its supposed to be in closed loop fuel control? The ECU may well be reading a low / non-existant water temperature reading, and running the start up rich mixture program.
If its intermittent, it may not bring up a CEL on the dash.
Edit: actually, it says as much in the notes on the video... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "OptimisticRed"Hi Folks,
My MR2 now smokes like a steam engine. The link on Youtube perfectly shows it:
m http://youtu.be/T0FBBLZdMGQ (http://youtu.be/T0FBBLZdMGQ) m
My post cat O2 sensor has gone, could this be the reason?
Thanks
How long had your engine been running when you took this?
Was it cold?
What rpms?
Listening it sounded like it was in high idle state, therefore not warmed up. When cold it's normal for engines to pass a bit of steam, though I admit I haven't checked my own as I normally just get in and drive off s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I did notice when we were driving around Hartside you passed a bit of smoke, not sure if they were puffs of oil smoke or being rich. Mafs aren't that straight forward to test as any measurements taken it idle bear little relationship to when you're flying along the road. I would definitely recommend a regular clean (every 6 or 12 months) and maybe try getting a spare one and see if it makes a difference.
Last time I came across a car with a knackered MAF. It had very different symptoms to this. It wouldn't rev properly for a start, anything over 4000rpm was not possible.
It's still worth trying, but I don't think its the flow sensor that's causing this (unless of course this could be caused by a defective air temperature sensor, also included in the MAF).
That video was indeed taken at cold startup. But it did the smoking for a good while. Took it for a drive afterwards and still saw smoke in my rear view, which I've never had on a petrol before. I'm disappointed when I don't see smoke come out of my soot chucker s:) :) s:)
I don't think it's puffs of oil, as its brown/yellow in colour from the looks of it.
Seeing as I got that P0125 error I'm tempted to think it may be the temp sensor.
The car really struggles around idle and cold starts are horrible.
Looks like a normal cold start to me then, steam is a sign of efficient combustion s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The exhaust is relatively short on the 2 so could explain it appearing more than a regular car, plus you're closer to the exhaust tips.
Just give the mad a clean and reset the ECU, worth either replacing the sensor or putting a resistor in. It's not a heat sensor, it's a heater to warm up the sensor so it's reading accurately quicker. It can over a long time result in an inaccurate fuel trim but nobody's complained about it being noticeable before.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Looks like a normal cold start to me then, steam is a sign of efficient combustion s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The exhaust is relatively short on the 2 so could explain it appearing more than a regular car, plus you're closer to the exhaust tips.
Just give the mad a clean and reset the ECU, worth either replacing the sensor or putting a resistor in. It's not a heat sensor, it's a heater to warm up the sensor so it's reading accurately quicker. It can over a long time result in an inaccurate fuel trim but nobody's complained about it being noticeable before.
I cleaned the MAF not long ago. Few weeks ago. And reset the ECU at David's soon after.
By temperature sensor I meant the coolant temp sensor on the left. Not the heater element, which I know has gone.
Not sure but if the coolant sensor wasn't working you would mean your idle wouldn't change whether the engine was warm or not. A more complicated obdii reader would show live readings from all sensors, I had one with me at Hartside. The sensor is surprisingly expensive, so worth finding a way of testing it.
Of course the maf can go faulty, cleaning is only maintenance. Best to see if you can borrow one from somewhere as it's easier to swap out than the coolant temp sensor.
Unbelievably, its been 6 years since I owned an MR2, so I'm a bit rusty. However, recent annoyingly similar problems on a Peugeot have led me down a similar path to this, and modern engines use very similar control philosophies now, since the advent of standardisation and OBD capabilities.
So here's a few pointers that might help.
My research thus far seems to indicate that if the coolant sensor is defective, it will first cause the engine to run rich, whether its cold and needs it, or hot and it then massively overfuels. The over fuelling will cause odd emmisions and fouling of spark plugs, and because the ECU uses the signal for so many other functions, limitation of power, limiting of VVTi, poor idle, rough running and poor starting may also be evident.
Steam out the exhausts can be related to head gasket failure, but dont panic, its not automatically that bad. Water vapour/steam is also generated in the catalysts and can be more evident when the fuel has a high moisture content, and if there is high humidity in the air. Given the right weather conditions, all modern petrol engines will emit huge plumes of steam when they are running a cold start program.
Modern engines use multiple sensors, so the reading on the dash doesn't nessesarily come from the same sensor the engine uses for control. The fact that your temperature gauge works doesn't mean the ECU can see how hot things are.
Depending upon which resource you read, failure of the coolant sensor seems to result in the engine running open loop all the time, in which case the MAF & O2 sensors aren't used anyway. Checking seems a fairly simple procedure though
Lastly, dont let the massive compexity of modern engines fool you. After all your research, you might find that the problem can be traced back to a the perennial favourite of old cars, £4's worth of knackered thermostat. When stuck open, the engine will rarely get to full operating temperature, resulting in many of the problems you've already described.
Check your sensor using this guide;
m http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repair ... 3f803801b1 (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairguides/Toyota-Celica-Corolla-ECHO-MR2-1999-05/Coolant-Temperature-Sensor/Testing/_/P-0996b43f803801b1) m
That's helpful. Thanks!
From what I gather from your post, it has all the symptoms of that temperature sensor being faulty.
I'll see if its passing anything.
The only thing is...logs do show that the ECU is responding to lean/rich conditions as reported by the O2. When O2 voltage reads on the rich side, the short term fuel trim shows this inversely.
So yeah today the car stalled while driving.
SICK of these issues. Had just started, was slowing down for a light at about 20mph when it died. Spent the rest of the drive to work hauling ass and it hauled nicely.
This cars seems to only want to go fast!!!
Upon stopping at work, I got out and noticed the car smelled like it was on fire s:) :) s:) This could be normal due to the way it had just been treated, or....mucho oil burno.
Will check oil when I get home.
CHECK THE OIL AT WORK BEFORE YOU SET OFF! s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"CHECK THE OIL AT WORK BEFORE YOU SET OFF! s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
I suppose that is the wise decision. Didn't sound like it was out of oil though. And I did check after last time I drove it and the oil was still full
Better safe than sorry mate s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It's cheaper to replace the pistons and re-hone than it is to replace the whole engine s:? :? s:?
Yup oil down significantly.
...list of expletives...
Could all be coming out of that leaky tensioner...hopefully...right??
Argh
Double post
Some more symptoms noticed today.
Popped off the oil filler cap and gave it a sniff.....petrol.
Am I hoping for something as innocent as missing spark?
In any case I guess I best not run it until I can drain it.
Running very rich then. See above, re: coolant temp. Missing spark will post a misfire code to the ECU.
Although, if oil levels are down too, that could be a slightly more... ...terminal... kind of problem.
Quote from: "GSB"Running very rich then. See above, re: coolant temp. Missing spark will post a misfire code to the ECU.
Although, if oil levels are down too, that could be a slightly more... ...terminal... kind of problem.
See what I'm thinking about the coolant sensor is:
A) Temp readings in dash seem to work fine (start at 0, go to 90)
B) I get lambda readings and corresponding ECU responses to short term fuel trim. So, that means the loop must be closed right? Except for when you let off throttle obviously.
So...doesn't that mean the temp sensor is fine?
I wish someone would just give this engine a final thumbs up or thumbs down. Don't even want to drive it now with fuel in the oil.
It only runs closed loop off throttle. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Interesting problem, sounds for all the world like massively over fuelling, but when I followed you it didn't smell like it was massively over fuelling, believe me it would give me a headache if it was. Sounds more like ring failure to me.
Always get the open/closed mixed up....
That's a 700 quid MattPerformance job isn't it? s:( :( s:(
Not 100% convinced myself but it certainly needs in depth investigation of the engine and its bores.
Anything involving engine work is going to cost £100's, you have to remember our engines get a hard life in a sports car and will need more care than your average car. Mine has started to consume oil now so I'm planning a rebuild, it's done 113000 miles so I reckon I've done quite well really. I remember a day when if you got 40000 miles on Ford engines it was a miracle.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Not 100% convinced myself but it certainly needs in depth investigation of the engine and its bores.
Anything involving engine work is going to cost £100's, you have to remember our engines get a hard life in a sports car and will need more care than your average car. Mine has started to consume oil now so I'm planning a rebuild, it's done 113000 miles so I reckon I've done quite well really. I remember a day when if you got 40000 miles on Ford engines it was a miracle.
Makes sense then as mine's also at 113k. So it hasn't done badly for a seemingly poorly maintained 2
Does sound similar to mine, I worked out that I go from top to bottom on the dipstick in just over 1000 miles.
Mine smells rich once it's stood a while and cooled off, I just figure it was running cold start cycle (for at least a short time) so that explained the rich smell when starting up. But then I am running an Apexi PFC ECU.
Remember your cam chain will have a certain amount of stretch now so combustion timing will have a habit of wandering, the vvti can cope with a bit of it ... but it has its limits. My running seems to get seriously upset by fuel quality so I aim to keep it consistent by sticking with a fuel i know gives me the least problems ... Shell V-Power Nitro+ at the moment. I was originally just going to service the timing end of the engine, but then the oil use started so now, with the help of a friend with a garage, I'm going to pull the engine out ... list of tasks;
Hone cylinders
New design pistons and rings
Replace valve stem oil seals
Replace valve springs
Check and re-shim as necessary
New chain
New tensioner
New slippers and guides
New oil pump
New water pump
New thermostat
New head bolts
New accessory belt
New oil pan (it's got battered and rusty over the years)
Possibly adding an oil cooler
Probably fitting oil pressure and temperature gauges.
We have to budget for this kind of thing as our cars get older and the mileage piles on, people are now buying these cars really cheaply and expecting them to fresh and perfect. They aren't, they're seeing high mileage, they've been getting used enthusiastically, and they will cost money to keep them running.
It sounds like yours is worn like mine, if you choose to act soon then you can save your engine by having it refreshed and having your original engine kind of makes you feel better with a known history and there's a bit more trust there. Keep an eye on your oil and try and measure how much it uses over distance, it just sounds like your car needs similar treatment to what I'm planning for mine. Of course once I get my engine opened up then I might find something more worrying ... but the only way to find out is to take the plunge and do it.
I factored in a bit more service than usual. I didn't factor in an engine rebuild unfortunately. 113k isn't that much in a "normal" car but I guess on these it translates to about 200k.
Looking like a SORN until I can get some cash together to take it to matt for the full works.
Any immediate danger in running it with the oil smelling as strongly of petrol? Or might as well SORN it today?
Quote from: "shnazzle"Any immediate danger in running it with the oil smelling as strongly of petrol? Or might as well SORN it today?
I would be tempted to do a oil and filter change using a flush, then see what it's like afterwards.
Te be honest the only time I've come across oil smelling of petrol was in a 2-stroke.
Or was that petrol smelling of oil?
Anyway, it's weird and worth trying a flush.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "GSB"Running very rich then. See above, re: coolant temp. Missing spark will post a misfire code to the ECU.
Although, if oil levels are down too, that could be a slightly more... ...terminal... kind of problem.
See what I'm thinking about the coolant sensor is:
A) Temp readings in dash seem to work fine (start at 0, go to 90)
B) I get lambda readings and corresponding ECU responses to short term fuel trim. So, that means the loop must be closed right? Except for when you let off throttle obviously.
So...doesn't that mean the temp sensor is fine?
Certainly the sensor that runs the gauge is fine, but that may not be the sensor that feeds the ECU. It's not uncommon to have 3, one for gauge, one for fans, and one for ECU.. (Dont know if Toyota do it that way, but Peugeot certainly do)
As I said, its been a long time since I've delved into the intricacies of engine management, but fuel in oil sounds like over fuelling to me, and overfuelling a modern computer controlled engine without it objecting and thowing all sorts of ODB fault codes is remarkably hard to do. As you've seen, the engine will trim its fuelling within a set band to acquire the right fuel air ratio, and show fault codes if cant do it. For it to add to much fuel is almost impossible, unless its running in a state where excess fuel is actually required, I.e. stone cold. Fool an engine into thinking its cold, and it'll input more fuel. That's why I keep coming back to the coolant temperature issue, because that's the single point of common failure most likely to produce the symptoms you are experiencing.
There is a separate issue at work her that is worrying though. Fuel in oil. Barring a head gasket and head casting failure, there's only one way for the fuel to get in the oil, and that is past the piston rings. Running lots of fuel into a cylinder is crap for efficiency and power, but it also increases the propensity for 'bore washing'. Assuming you can use it with turning yourself into a walking inferno, petrol is a fantastic de-greaser. Nothing removes oil quite like it, so if you get to much into your cylinders you end up washing the lubricating film of oil off of the cylinder walls. Cue highly accelerated wear, piston ring blow by, and eventual failure.
My first step now would be to do a compression test.
Disable the fuel injection, take out all the spark plugs, and do a dry and wet compression test. See how long it takes each cylinder to come to pressure, and what the variance between cylinders look like. Do it dry first, and then wet, with a teaspoon full of oil poured into the spark plug hole. Any huge differences between wet and dry will indicate bore/ring issues.
Then, if that's all ok, fix your rich running issue before you really toast the engine.
Quote from: "GSB"Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "GSB"Running very rich then. See above, re: coolant temp. Missing spark will post a misfire code to the ECU.
Although, if oil levels are down too, that could be a slightly more... ...terminal... kind of problem.
See what I'm thinking about the coolant sensor is:
A) Temp readings in dash seem to work fine (start at 0, go to 90)
B) I get lambda readings and corresponding ECU responses to short term fuel trim. So, that means the loop must be closed right? Except for when you let off throttle obviously.
So...doesn't that mean the temp sensor is fine?
Certainly the sensor that runs the gauge is fine, but that may not be the sensor that feeds the ECU. It's not uncommon to have 3, one for gauge, one for fans, and one for ECU.. (Dont know if Toyota do it that way, but Peugeot certainly do)
As I said, its been a long time since I've delved into the intricacies of engine management, but fuel in oil sounds like over fuelling to me, and overfuelling a modern computer controlled engine without it objecting and thowing all sorts of ODB fault codes is remarkably hard to do. As you've seen, the engine will trim its fuelling within a set band to acquire the right fuel air ratio, and show fault codes if cant do it. For it to add to much fuel is almost impossible, unless its running in a state where excess fuel is actually required, I.e. stone cold. Fool an engine into thinking its cold, and it'll input more fuel. That's why I keep coming back to the coolant temperature issue, because that's the single point of common failure most likely to produce the symptoms you are experiencing.
There is a separate issue at work her that is worrying though. Fuel in oil. Barring a head gasket and head casting failure, there's only one way for the fuel to get in the oil, and that is past the piston rings. Running lots of fuel into a cylinder is crap for efficiency and power, but it also increases the propensity for 'bore washing'. Assuming you can use it with turning yourself into a walking inferno, petrol is a fantastic de-greaser. Nothing removes oil quite like it, so if you get to much into your cylinders you end up washing the lubricating film of oil off of the cylinder walls. Cue highly accelerated wear, piston ring blow by, and eventual failure.
My first step now would be to do a compression test.
Disable the fuel injection, take out all the spark plugs, and do a dry and wet compression test. See how long it takes each cylinder to come to pressure, and what the variance between cylinders look like. Do it dry first, and then wet, with a teaspoon full of oil poured into the spark plug hole. Any huge differences between wet and dry will indicate bore/ring issues.
Then, if that's all ok, fix your rich running issue before you really toast the engine.
Now that I can work with. I'll fetch a compression gauge. Really appreciate the time guys. Great stuff.
How does one disable fuel injection in the MR2?
Done it once before by pulling a fuse out, is it as simple on the 2?
I'll see what I can do to determine whether the coolant temp sensor is gone or faulty.
But I agree, only having a P0135 for the level of over fuelling I have seems odd.
Next is a flush/refill of oil. However...with such an old engine, do I not run the risk that the flush will dislodge all the nice gunk that's helping seal my engine?
I wonder is bore wash would result in petrol smell from the oil?
I still say you would pop up an eml alerting it was too rich.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I wonder is bore wash would result in petrol smell from the oil?
I still say you would pop up an eml alerting it was too rich.
In any case I want to drain that crap out to prevent further washing.
Agreed on the fault code though. You'd think after having long term fuel trims of max (25) for ages, the car would get the hint that owt is amiss and throw an error
Just pulling the plugs after a run will give you some useful pointers (you will have to do that for the compression test anyway).
m http://www.triumphspitfire.nl/plugs.html (http://www.triumphspitfire.nl/plugs.html) m may be of use. Certainly black, sooty and wet electrodes won't bode well.
I've had oiled plugs on an 'A' series and on an old Rootes motor, starting and tickover were a problem until it burned off. Modern engines run a bit leaner so the 'Normal' picture may look a bit lighter.
If they are contaminated then try just cleaning them (wire brush / electric drill) and see if it runs better for a bit, but it will come back.
I agree with the others that running that rich would cause a CEL because that was the main point of OBD systems.
Methinks I shall just get the 50 quid service special from CTP and just do the lot while I'm at it. And get a new O2 sensor to have a EML-less MR2 for the first time since ownership.
I'll post pics of the sparks up here. That site will help heaps. Thanks!
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I wonder is bore wash would result in petrol smell from the oil?
I still say you would pop up an eml alerting it was too rich.
In any case I want to drain that crap out to prevent further washing.
Agreed on the fault code though. You'd think after having long term fuel trims of max (25) for ages, the car would get the hint that owt is amiss and throw an error
You know, up until about 2 weeks ago, I'd have agreed with you. In fact I'd have put money on it, but recent experience has proven a few oddities to me.
The Peugeot I keep mentioning has left me stuck at the side of the road twice in the last couple of weeks. It's been an absolute sod to find the problem. It starts fine, idles like a bit of a dog, but no worse than its ever done, and no worse than you expect for a 100,000 mile old engine. After a few minutes though, a random lottery of symptoms can make themselves very very apparent. Take your choice from any or all of the following; Idle control goes out of the window,
it runs like a total dog,
it won't rev,
it develops almost, but not quite exactly, NO power whatsoever
and it happily leaves you stranded in the middle of a road whilst everyone swears at you and calls you a swanker wanker swanker .
At this point, it will not start. It cranks over, and almost chokes you with the smell of unburnt fuel, but wont fire. After 2 minutes or so, it will begrudgingly come back to life, clear its throat (plugs fouled), and carry on as though nothing has happened, other than the fact that it drinks fuel like George Best drank scotch.
Plugs are good, fuel is good, ht leads are good, coil is good, position sensor is good, temp gauge works just fine. Much digging and testing revealed that the problem occurs at the exact same time the thermostat opens to admit water to the radiator. (Pure luck, happened to holding onto the top hose when it suddenly went warm as the stat opened, and the engine immediately started misbehaving). The ridiculous smell of excess fuel led me down the path of dodgy mixture control, idle air control valves, and many other dead ends that had me pulling my hair out.
Then I discovered the seperate coolant temp sensor feeding only the ECU. There are 3 of them, one in the radiator water inlet controls the cooling fan, one in the side of the cylinder head feeds the gauge on the dash, and another, right next to it and mounted just downstream of the 'stat, feeds the ECU. According to the bible (Haynes) a defective ECU coolant temp probe WILL trigger a CEL. So, naturally, I took at at its word and carried on looking. It was only when I disconnected the sensor that I discovered this to be complete balls.
The sensor has been diconnected since Thursday and the CEL steadfastly refuses to light. Cold starts are obviously a bit crap, but the engine no longer cuts out, and once warm is behaving itself quite nicely. It has also stopped gassing me out with petrol vapour, its using less fuel and making more power too. I suspect that the new sensor I've ordered for it will restore the cold start performance and allow the full range of timing and fuelling control, restoring the full quota of 90bhp (Woohoo!).
That's the story with my little French shopping trolley, I suspect that its worth investigating on your car, just in case.
Quote from: "GSB"Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I wonder is bore wash would result in petrol smell from the oil?
I still say you would pop up an eml alerting it was too rich.
In any case I want to drain that crap out to prevent further washing.
Agreed on the fault code though. You'd think after having long term fuel trims of max (25) for ages, the car would get the hint that owt is amiss and throw an error
You know, up until about 2 weeks ago, I'd have agreed with you. In fact I'd have put money on it, but recent experience has proven a few oddities to me.
The Peugeot I keep mentioning has left me stuck at the side of the road twice in the last couple of weeks. It's been an absolute sod to find the problem. It starts fine, idles like a bit of a dog, but no worse than its ever done, and no worse than you expect for a 100,000 mile old engine. After a few minutes though, a random lottery of symptoms can make themselves very very apparent. Take your choice from any or all of the following; Idle control goes out of the window,
it runs like a total dog,
it won't rev,
it develops almost, but not quite exactly, NO power whatsoever
and it happily leaves you stranded in the middle of a road whilst everyone swears at you and calls you a *******.
At this point, it will not start. It cranks over, and almost chokes you with the smell of unburnt fuel, but wont fire. After 2 minutes or so, it will begrudgingly come back to life, clear its throat (plugs fouled), and carry on as though nothing has happened, other than the fact that it drinks fuel like George Best drank scotch.
Plugs are good, fuel is good, ht leads are good, coil is good, position sensor is good, temp gauge works just fine. Much digging and testing revealed that the problem occurs at the exact same time the thermostat opens to admit water to the radiator. (Pure luck, happened to holding onto the top hose when it suddenly went warm as the stat opened, and the engine immediately started misbehaving). The ridiculous smell of excess fuel led me down the path of dodgy mixture control, idle air control valves, and many other dead ends that had me pulling my hair out.
Then I discovered the seperate coolant temp sensor feeding only the ECU. There are 3 of them, one in the radiator water inlet controls the cooling fan, one in the side of the cylinder head feeds the gauge on the dash, and another, right next to it and mounted just downstream of the 'stat, feeds the ECU. According to the bible (Haynes) a defective ECU coolant temp probe WILL trigger a CEL. So, naturally, I took at at its word and carried on looking. It was only when I disconnected the sensor that I discovered this to be complete balls.
The sensor has been diconnected since Thursday and the CEL steadfastly refuses to light. Cold starts are obviously a bit crap, but the engine no longer cuts out, and once warm is behaving itself quite nicely. It has also stopped gassing me out with petrol vapour, its using less fuel and making more power too. I suspect that the new sensor I've ordered for it will restore the cold start performance and allow the full range of timing and fuelling control, restoring the full quota of 90bhp (Woohoo!).
That's the story with my little French shopping trolley, I suspect that its worth investigating on your car, just in case.
Hmm...I could have written that exact story. I see why you think I may have the same problem.
As far as I can tell (after 1.5 minutes of "research") there is but one coolant temp sensor on the MR2. Tempted to unplug it and see what happens. However, how does this ECU interpret np signal from the sensor? Does it go to a base of some sort, or does it always report 0?
I'll have a peek to see how many sensors I'm dealing with. in the meantime I've ordered a full service kit and an O2 sensor, and will get a compression tester tomorrow.
It does sound plausible, but with the 2 having only one sensor then I doubt it.
If you have the right obdii reader it will tell you the actually temperature the sensor is seeing.
That's one of the handy things with the PFC, you can actually read off the temperature the ECU is seeing.
Just had another peek at a semi-recent log I took, in ScanXL. Off the back of this a question; is it possible for an o2 sensor to not report anything back but not throw up an error code?
I ask this because I'm seeing SAE.O2S11.O2SV (Bank 1 Sens 1) reporting voltages nicely (although erratically, not quite the nice sine-wave I want), but SAEO2S21.O2SV (Bank 2 Sens 1) is returning 0.000v. But the only error code I have is P0135...which relates to the working sensor.
Does it even need both sensors working to get the fuelling right?
Odd ... it should report a code, even if they get a bit tired they usually kick off a code.
Fuelling will not be right without any reading from the sensor and this could explain your running rich.
I suggest you swap them over (obviously maintaining the wiring correct for left & right) and see if the fault follows the sensor.
If it does then replace the sensor that's reading 0v, if it doesn't then you could have a faulty wire.
Swap sounds like a good idea eh? My car seems to be skimping on codes doesn't it? s:) :) s:) You'd think it pays toll for every code.
I identified this a few weeks ago with the multimeter as well. I just figured I was doing something wrong and ignored it, as it didn't throw an error.
The bank2 (left) sensor was returning values for the heater element circuit, but I couldn't get it to show anything on the actual o2 circuit.
Bank 1 (right) was obviously dead on the heater circuit...hence P0135. Confirmed s:) :) s:) hehe.
So both sensors are faulty ... just different faults! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Good thing I ordered that servicing set.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/19/erugaqu2.jpg)
For removing the sparks, do you just use one of those 2-sides bars to get into the holes?
Never seen them so far down (shows how long it's been since I've done this)
Had my compression kit at the ready and then saw the deep abyss under each coil pack
Sparks look good to me. Good sign. The first one is a bit more corroded.
Haven't taken cyl 3 out yet as the bars were in the way and couldn't be bothered just yet.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/20/usuve5ep.jpg)
Also, no compression test yet as I lack a 19mm socket to turn the engine after replacing the timing chain tensioner.
Jeez mate, those are worn out!
Replace them and the car will run far better s;-) ;-) s;-)
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Jeez mate, those are worn out!
Replace them and the car will run far better s;-) ;-) s;-)
Oh aye!! They're WELL worn. But new ones are in the post.
Judging by the state of these and the air filter...this hasn't been touched in 3-4 years.
Echoing the above, those plugs are utterly borked.
They appear to showing signs of overheating, and they have gaps you could could drive a bus through. The correct gap should be what, 1.1mm? Given that the thread pitch is 1.25 mm its clear you have far more than that. The voltage required to fire those plugs will be astronomical.
Quote from: "GSB"Echoing the above, those plugs are utterly borked.
They appear to showing signs of overheating, and they have gaps you could could drive a bus through. The correct gap should be what, 1.1mm? Given that the thread pitch is 1.25 mm its clear you have far more than that. The voltage required to fire those plugs will be astronomical.
Good stuff!! I'm guessing the little electrode thingamajig has just worn so much that the gap is now massive.
Surprised it ran, judging from your comments.
How did it even get the voltage to run these?
Don't know how many miles the car has done but those plugs have probably done all of them s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Even if you just cleaned them with a wire brush in an electric drill and re-gapped them (just tap the electrode one something solid and don't worry about the acute angle) the engine would run better.
They all have worn consistently and they all (assuming the last one is the same) are a similar colour. This is rather dark which may point towards running a bit rich or maybe oiling but it doesn't look excessive and there is no 'rogue' cylinder
I'd do what you plan to do, put the new bits on and then see how it runs. At least you will have eliminated a few areas of doubt.
The results of the compression test will be interesting.
Quote from: "mrzwei"Don't know how many miles the car has done but those plugs have probably done all of them s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Even if you just cleaned them with a wire brush in an electric drill and re-gapped them (just tap the electrode one something solid and don't worry about the acute angle) the engine would run better.
They all have worn consistently and they all (assuming the last one is the same) are a similar colour. This is rather dark which may point towards running a bit rich or maybe oiling but it doesn't look excessive and there is no 'rogue' cylinder
I'd do what you plan to do, put the new bits on and then see how it runs. At least you will have eliminated a few areas of doubt.
The results of the compression test will be interesting.
Some interesting developments.
Got the car back into a running order today so that I could warm up the engine for the compression test. Left the incredibly dirty air filter out. This was probably last changed when the sparks were s:) :) s:) I also switched bank 1 and bank 2 O2 sensors. Battery was disconnected for about 5 minutes so I don't think ECU reset happened.
...aaanndd the car idled quite normally without poisoning me with fuel vapours.
Compression gauge didn't show a reading, so I've ordered a new one which I should get today. It had a leak on the bayonet connector. I tried with just the hose into the cylinder and a piece of tape over the hole and it blew it clean off so...definitely compression.
Need to check my reinstall of the chain tensioner as well because an awkward rattling presented itself after about 4 minutes of idling on the drive. Eek.
Before my last service fuel economy was crap, plugs had big gaps compared to normal. Ran smooth as after replacing them and economy restored.
Cam chain tensioner needs a bit of care, did you hear it snap back when you manually turned over the engine?
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Before my last service fuel economy was crap, plugs had big gaps compared to normal. Ran smooth as after replacing them and economy restored.
Cam chain tensioner needs a bit of care, did you hear it snap back when you manually turned over the engine?
I've done a cold compression test. Kind of meaningless but just to check variance between cylls
50, 47, 53, 50. Dry and cold.
Copied from an old post (which got a bit heated s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ):
Compression tested my engine!!!!!
Postby AmeR » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:42 am
According to Toyota, the Compression Pressure of a stock 1ZZ as found in these cars should be:
1,270kPa / 13.0kgf/cm(sq) / 184psi
Minimum pressure of:
1,000kPa / 10.2kgf/cm(sq) / 145psi
With a difference between each cylinder of 100kPa / 1.0kgf/cm(sq) / 15psi or less
Being that its their engine and I'd imagine they've spent a tad more on research, development and construction of the engines than I'm likely to earn in a lifetime, can we put the pi$$ing contest to bed and afford the OP some advice?
The official line for Toyota is:
1. Warm up and stop the engine
2. Remove ignition coils
3. Remove spark plugs
4. Inspect compression (insert gauge, fully open throttle)
Hint: always use a fully charged battery to obtain engine speed of 250rpm or more
Is that the procedure you followed?
AmeR
END OF QUOTE
Should help when you do it for real.
The engine needs to turn over quite a few times (say 10 / 12) to hit max. compression.
The only thing I didn't do, as mentioned, was warm up the engine. Didn't get to it tonight but will do tomorrow.
I'm a bit confused as to why I'm around 50ish psi.
The only thing I can think (besides cold engine) is that my battery is poop. Although testing it delivers 12.4v
I know it's a far cry from the 175 I was expecting.
It stopped rising after 6/7 turns
Will drive it around tomorrow and try after
1/ 50psi, even cold, is really-really low
2/ 6/7 turns, is a very long time
3/ 12.4 volts on a 12 volt battery, equals knackered. It should over 13 when fully charged. (Approx 2 1/4 volts per cell)
Get a decent battery that will crank the engine over nice and quick. There's no real load with no spark plugs in, so it should be really fast when cranking
Get a friend to hold the throttle wide open.
Full pressure should have come up by the third stroke.
Quote from: "GSB"1/ 50psi, even cold, is really-really low
2/ 6/7 turns, is a very long time
3/ 12.4 volts on a 12 volt battery, equals knackered. It should over 13 when fully charged. (Approx 2 1/4 volts per cell)
Get a decent battery that will crank the engine over nice and quick. There's no real load with no spark plugs in, so it should be really fast when cranking
Get a friend to hold the throttle wide open.
Full pressure should have come up by the third stroke.
The car always started instantly though. Never noticed issues with it not starting quickly.
I did hold the throttle in fully. I put the gauge in the rear window and looked at it in the rear view mirror while I say in, throttle to the floor and turned the key for as many strokes until it maxed out.
I'll see if I can steal my other cars battery temporarily if the specs match
I'm happy with the results I've got from just a simple O2 sensor replacement and a service.
All of the above symptoms were caused by:
- Incredibly dirty and blocked up air filter
- dirty spark plugs (good kind of dirty) with gaps wide enough to park a 747
- Faulty O2 sensor
The engine runs smoother than I've ever heard it run since I've owned it. Once I flush the engine and fill it again with some Toyota 10w40, I expect it to run just that bit smoother.
I took another log over a 20 minutes drive, and the fuel trims are beautifully stable with long-term being 0%. O2 sensor is going up and down as expected, as it should. Short term fuel trim is acting accordingly. No more erratic behaviour.
Haven't done a compression test as my battery is still poop. Not too inclined to do so anymore to be honest.
As far as I'm concerned. SORTED. Gear bushings sorted. Car drives a right treat. One happy camper here s:) :) s:)
Disconnect the injectors too. My procedure, although very slightly different from Toyota is for 8 full cranks with WOT and no fuel (to avoid bore wash) with a cold engine. It's not strictly in accordance with Toyota standards but I've probably tested more engines than most. 190psi (on my gauge) is about as low as I've seen with consistency across the cylinders. Once you go below you tend to find one or more cylinders with wildly varying readings. The engine would not run with pressures below 100psi.
Those plugs were shocking by the way. A very clear reason why fuel burning would not have been good. O2 sensor measure (surprise surprise) oxygen, so unburnt fuel due to knackered plugs would not be seen by the sensors hence why there were no codes. Same applies if combustion is poor due to lack of compression. Sometimes you can see more from what the sensors aren't telling you than from what they are (assuming of course that the OP's assertion that is was over-fueling was accurate).
Looks like some progress is being made, but, as ever, always start with the basics. I dread to think what the engine oil looks like judging by the air filter and plugs!
Quote from: "MattPerformance"Disconnect the injectors too. My procedure, although very slightly different from Toyota is for 8 full cranks with WOT and no fuel (to avoid bore wash) with a cold engine. It's not strictly in accordance with Toyota standards but I've probably tested more engines than most. 190psi (on my gauge) is about as low as I've seen with consistency across the cylinders. Once you go below you tend to find one or more cylinders with wildly varying readings. The engine would not run with pressures below 100psi.
Those plugs were shocking by the way. A very clear reason why fuel burning would not have been good. O2 sensor measure (surprise surprise) oxygen, so unburnt fuel due to knackered plugs would not be seen by the sensors hence why there were no codes. Same applies if combustion is poor due to lack of compression. Sometimes you can see more from what the sensors aren't telling you than from what they are (assuming of course that the OP's assertion that is was over-fueling was accurate).
Looks like some progress is being made, but, as ever, always start with the basics. I dread to think what the engine oil looks like judging by the air filter and plugs!
That's exactly how I did my compression test Matt. Except for that I counted to 7 when turning over. Don't know why. Disconnected everything (injectors too, seemed to make sense to me), 7 cranks with WOT.
Do you think my (very) low compression numbers could just be due to the battery being old? As it does start the engine very quickly.
I'll be doing the oil tomorrow I think, after a flush. Does that sound ok to you or do you reckon a flush will cause more harm than good?
Oil/ flush definitely makes sense given the apparent poor servicing in the past, then try the compression test again with a fresh battery or jump pack/ leads and see what you get.
I wouldn't rule out a faulty/ bad-reading compression gauge though cause I'm sure the engine wouldn't run with circa 50psi compression results (and it does!!).
On a side note, when changing the oil in the 2, do you need to replace the washer? One wasn't provided by CTP so I'm assuming not.
Used to replacing the whole nut and washer.
I have re used them occasionally with no problem but my Toyota dealer usually puts one in the box with the filter.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"I have re used them occasionally with no problem but my Toyota dealer usually puts one in the box with the filter.
Admittedly haven't checked the filter box.
In any case I can crack on with it today
Oil changed in the pouring rain. Oil was thick and black, couldn't find any deposits or anything from the flush.
New washer was provided with the filter.
My oil filter tool didn't fit the tiny MR2 filter, so it's just on there with a few manual twists with all my might. Hope that suffices.
Still have to top up the last 2ltr or so of oil.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Oil changed in the pouring rain. Oil was thick and black, couldn't find any deposits or anything from the flush.
New washer was provided with the filter.
My oil filter tool didn't fit the tiny MR2 filter, so it's just on there with a few manual twists with all my might. Hope that suffices.
Still have to top up the last 2ltr or so of oil.
Blimey, thick oil after a flush s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Still, the blacker it comes out, the less gunge in the engine. Oil filter tool is for getting filters off. They should only go on hand tight.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Quote from: "shnazzle"Oil changed in the pouring rain. Oil was thick and black, couldn't find any deposits or anything from the flush.
New washer was provided with the filter.
My oil filter tool didn't fit the tiny MR2 filter, so it's just on there with a few manual twists with all my might. Hope that suffices.
Still have to top up the last 2ltr or so of oil.
Blimey, thick oil after a flush s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Still, the blacker it comes out, the less gunge in the engine. Oil filter tool is for getting filters off. They should only go on hand tight.
Really. I usually get it on hand-tight, not too much pressure, then give it a tiny turn with the tool to tighten it.
It wasn't wildly thick or anything. Just thicker than I thought given that I smelled fuel in it, and the flush.
Happy it's all out