And it confirmed my fears. Its a bit down on power s:( :( s:( s:( :( s:( s:( :( s:(
It made 176bhp and 175lbs/ft of torque. Given it has a sports cat and SP backbox, it should have been 190s. The power plot looks exactly as expected and the car drives fine. I had it checked for boost leaks a few weeks back and its fine too, tested upto 15psi. I didn't get a boost reading today which I was fed up about as I asked for one, I think that would have told me more.
Given the recent saga I had with the clutch slipping and needing a exedy clutch I'm suprised its only at 175lbs/ft. I would have thought my old stock clutch with low miles would have handled that ok.
Will scan the dyno plot when I get a sec anyway.
Dyno charts. The 133bhp is the run from last year, car was NA then with a US unichip and airfilter only.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/m03ppz00/Blue%20MR2/TTE_Dyno1_Jun13.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/m03ppz00/media/Blue%20MR2/TTE_Dyno1_Jun13.jpg.html)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/m03ppz00/Blue%20MR2/TTE_Dyno2_Jun13.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/m03ppz00/media/Blue%20MR2/TTE_Dyno2_Jun13.jpg.html)
The operator noted the AFR was a little lean but nothing bad.
Turbo still in good condition? I know when I was talking to tom about your car he sait it was a pretty good kit as far as bolt ons etc go. So I know hos only thoughts too were turbo issues?
The way it goes up and holds it would make me think the turbo is good and there are no leaks. Maybe everything is working as it should however the wastegate is opening at a lower pressure so instead of making x psi its only making y psi.
Have you ever had it dyno'd in the 190s? 176/175 isn't too bad and the plot looks nice. Given that you've no idea what PSI you're at and its running well, be happy! s:D :D s:D
I'm very hazy on this, but I don't recall Toyota nailing down a default wastegate opening PSI in their literature for the stock turbo unit. At the time, we all thought it was something like 6PSI. Not sure why s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
The wastegate arm is adjustable on the TTE kit. Shortening it can tweak the opening characteristics and give things a bit more punch. Not something you should do blindly without gauges: there's an upper limit specified - its in the TTE literature somewhere!
Quote from: "spit"Have you ever had it dyno'd in the 190s? 176/175 isn't too bad and the plot looks nice. Given that you've no idea what PSI you're at and its running well, be happy!
I've never had it dyno'd at 190 but I know theres less torque now than when the kit first went on. It felt like my old SP240 when it first went on, the surge of torque was very noticable. Now its much more subtle. It fell off about 5 months after it was fitted but around the same time the lift off noise changed. The problem was my clutch started slipping too just after so I thought it was the clutch. I only realised when the exedy clutch went on it was down on power.
I think I'm going to invest in a cheapy ebay boost guage to see what PSI its running. I wouldn't be suprised if its only 3 to 4 psi.
I get the impression there are certainly some variations in how the TTET kits perform. I remember loadswine suggesting that mine seemed to pack more punch than the one he had.
Again im not if this is down to just my gauges but I seem to be getting a little over 10 psi on max boost.
Yes Nath, yours definitely seems to have more oomph than other TTEs that I've driven. I was looking at the figures for a TTE in the garage section and can't really see the dyno printout, but 176 is a typical figure for a TTE and I think that other one was at 6 psi. Torque figures vary a bit too from memory of past dyno figures.
175lbs/ft is low for sure. Most TTETs hit 200lb/ft even if they max out at 185bhp as the chip pulls timing up the rpm range by design. Lets not forget thats on a stock cat and stock exhaust. Mine has a sport cat and SP back box.
Have you spoke with Matt about this?
Quote from: "nathanMR2"Have you spoke with Matt about this?
Not yet since it was dyno'd. Last time we spoke he suspected low boost, possibly the wastegate spring being weak. So next step is to get a cheapish boost guage wired in and see what PSI its running. From what I read 7ish is the norm, 10 max.
If it is of interest, here is a link I found to a club dyno day, with all sorts of configurations running
l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13900&p=169103&hilit=dyno+day#p169103 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13900&p=169103&hilit=dyno+day#p169103) l
After looking a the old dyno runs it would seem that bhp is correct but torque is massively down. Wonder what it could be?
176bhp is within the acceptable range with a stock cat, I'd expect a little more with a sports cat.
The shape of the graph however suggests it's a poor result because it ramps up at the last moment to get to 176, immediately prior to that it's more like 170.
The torque figure is well down on what I would expect. Even with a stock exhaust I'd expect 190ftlb+.
The lack of boost data is really unhelpful and I'd be inclined to take the car back and ask them to do it again (preferably without charge). Trying to assess boost on the road with a manual gauge is far too haphazard.
The AFR is a touch lean but that's no so unusual for a TTET although I don't remember seeing a reading over 13 before. I wouldn't be surprised if the stock ECU was pulling ignition.
Have you got a Markiii pipe on it? (Or any other induction mods?)
Boost measurements with a stock induction (with the TTE supplied panel filter) is the only reliable way to get to the bottom of this.
A little extra note on the tuner you've used...you need to be a bit more hands-on with them. Great guys and great garage though.
Just pop over Mark's shoulder when he's setting up the dyno and prod him a bit to put in the boost reading. Dave's a little less receptive to prodding though...
Again, can't recommend them enough though for anything from service to mapping, but do ignore the "do not enter the work place" stickers a bit. Go in through the garage door (as it has to be open for the run) and creep over to the dyno computer while Mark's setting it up.
(I never said any of this s;) ;) s;) )
Quote from: "shnazzle"A little extra note on the tuner you've used...you need to be a bit more hands-on with them. Great guys and great garage though.
Just pop over Mark's shoulder when he's setting up the dyno and prod him a bit to put in the boost reading. Dave's a little less receptive to prodding though...
TBH mate, I won't be going back there. Before I paid I asked for a boost plot, paid upfront, they ran it and didn't do one. When I rang them afterwards to ask if they would run it up again with boost and maybe discount me rather than paying another £50 they didn't want to know. They'd also messed me about booking it in too.
Quote from: "MattPerformance"The AFR is a touch lean but that's no so unusual for a TTET although I don't remember seeing a reading over 13 before. I wouldn't be surprised if the stock ECU was pulling ignition.
Have you got a Markiii pipe on it? (Or any other induction mods?)
Boost measurements with a stock induction (with the TTE supplied panel filter) is the only reliable way to get to the bottom of this.
I still have my markiii (diy pipe) on it and a K&N panel filter which has about 15,000 miles on it/is a bit scruffy. So for sure I'm going to stick the stock pipe back on and maybe order a new stock air filter (can't get TTE ones?)
One other thought did occur too, when they ran it it was a hot day (about 17D) and they had one fan only at the front of the car. I know when I've dyno'd 2s in the past they usually have a fan at the side too near the intake.
I run a standard stock intake pipe and a BMC panel filter on mine (same as a TTE filter)
As a thought thinking of my build. I'm running 225bhp with only that level of torque because I wanted them to run as close to economic as possible map. Reason im saying this is because im wondering if the problem might be somewhere else on the engine ie not as much fuel possibly?
Minor update... Its been a few days since it took the mkiii pipe off and cleaned the MAF.
Not much change. Its a little bit more boosty. But I think cleaning the MAF may have been a bad idea. The idle is a bit more rough now and I'm getting some lag before it comes on boost. I know from my ford days the MAFs on the focus often got knackered by cleaning with electrical spray so I'm hoping I didn't knacker mine.
After pay pay, I'm either going to add a boost gauge to check that or maybe instead get a new MAF and o2 sensors to rule those out.
You got a wideband on there mate? Be cool to see your afr's?
I might have a gauge and sender going spare if your interested.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"I might have a gauge and sender going spare if your interested.
Maybe, pm me the details. Price, make, size and scale (PSI/Bar, max). The problem I have been having is finding an electronic one with a low scale. Most new ones are 30 to 40 PSI which would barely move on a low pressure turbo like ours.
Thought I'd better update this one. The car had a faulty o2 sensor which I bet was the cause of the lean AFR. Thats fixed now and the bum dyno says its a bit better for it. I'll probably stick it back on the dyno to be sure at some point but I'm in no hurry. s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
That's good to hear! s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "stargazer30"Thought I'd better update this one. The car had a faulty o2 sensor which I bet was the cause of the lean AFR. Thats fixed now and the bum dyno says its a bit better for it. I'll probably stick it back on the dyno to be sure at some point but I'm in no hurry. s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:
O2 sensor should not really affect high load running, it only works in closed loop mode (part throttle cruise / idle). Unless it has caused the ECU to pick a lean open loop curve.
Update - Well after getting to the bottom of the recent ECU light and codes, the car has had 2 x new o2 sensors and a new MAF, still feels lacking a bit though.
So today I fitted an electronic boost gauge to check the turbo pressure. I was expecting it to be low but no, its reading 9 to 10 PSI on full throttle right up the rev range. I did catch it pull boost down once to 8psi over 6000 rpm, not sure if the TTE map does that by design or if it was a glitch.
So I guess that rules out the turbo, I'm amazed its struggling to hit 175lbs/ft at 10 PSI boost.
Compression test the engine? Check timing trims to see if ecu is pulling timing?
Chris
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Compression test the engine? Check timing trims to see if ecu is pulling timing?
Chris
The engine is pretty fresh at just over 30,000 miles and it made stock power 135bhp before the turbo went on so I dont think compression is the issue but if all else fails I will check it.
I'm tempted after reading an old thread on Liz's TTE to get the boost turned down. Liz's was low on power and was set at 10psi. I do recall the correct boost level is 7psi. I do think the ECU is backing things right off due to the high boost level. Its just a theory though, I don't know enough about this stuff to be sure.
I might be wrong, but i´ve always been under the impression that the TTE turbokit is supposed to run at 0,35 bar which translates to about 5 psi. If this is unclear, i could always check my papers.
Im *VERY* supprised everyone seems happy about that graph???? Am i looking at a different graph to everyone else? lol.
the power comes to a dead stop at only 5k and thats just not right at all. it should continue to pull cleanly up untill past 6.5k and thats why the power is down.
as the OP has posted boost pressures since are holding, then id say ignition is going.. possibly det from it being lean and the ecu cutting back? have you monitored it for detonation at all? it could also be air temps, what charge cooling is there? was there a fan on any intercoolers??
as above lambdas make no difference at full throttle.
What ECU is controlling the fueling and ignition? was it mapped on this car or another and transferred?
It's certainly not the best graph I've ever seen. The torque curve is a bit messy and seems to hit some kind of limiter.
Does the TTE kit have some form of MAP sensor? (I'm guessing yes)
This seems very similar to an issue I was having in my car when it was hitting the max threshold on my MAP sensor. It pulled back the boost, then pushed it up, hit the limiter, pulled it back etc etc etc.
In my case a hard limit on the MAP and a too-aggressive mapping on the ecu
Sounds like it's pulling timing, if the boost is strong but power is not.
I'd get your AFR checked as well.
there is an afr graph posted below the power run, while leaner than sane in my opinion it does seem to be smooth, suggesting a timing ajustment rather than cut or fuel cut. else the AFR's would "lean out" relatively.
so on these engines, i guess thats got to be intake temp, water temp, or det? (which i'd expect to see spikes in afr). so im leaning towards intake... so makes me wonder what intercooling is on this car still and did they put a fan to it.... any info?
Have the injectors been checked for flow etc. As the stock injector is running at max to make what the op is wanting to see in power. The PE turbo is a similar power output and they run stock injectors but with a increased fuel pressure so the injectors are not being maxed.
Been on holiday s:D :D s:D So back to business with the turbo. The posts about the graph maxing out at 5K, thats by design. The TTET kit uses a sealed read only map designed for the stock exhaust, cat and injectors and to keep the toyota warrenty. So by design it pulls timing, power,etc.. the lot at 5k. It does run a MAP sensor too but I don't think it can control boost, just monitor it and adjust fueling to match.
I am planning to turn down the boost by adjusting the actuator, nothing drastic, say 3 PSI so its at 7, then let the ECU re-adjust and see what it does. Really for the setup I have we should be seeing 200lb/ft peak torque and 190+ BHP at 5K rpm.
I can't see toyota allowing a car to be sold with a graph that shape. got any detailed information on the TTE setup i can read through so I can understand the setup better??
Quote from: "stupink"I can't see toyota allowing a car to be sold with a graph that shape. got any detailed information on the TTE setup i can read through so I can understand the setup better??
They did,here the link to the origonal TTET fitted in the UK by Silverstone performance. Checkout the dyno plot.
http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=47&i=14678
Well I'm stuffed, the boost can't be adjusted s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
I had the actuator off the car today, the bar is set at its shortest possible length and the part thats supposed the turn is well and truely seized. I tried penetrating oil and even a little heat but its not going to shift. The only way I'm going to adjust that is buy a new actuator s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
post me a pic of the actuator setup, theres always a way s:) :) s:)
i've just had a quick look at the graph in that link, very supprised but yup you're spot on.. could be caused by physical restriction in the exhaust/turbo/manifold anything... or could be deliberate cut, what ecu is on it?? not sure how it could achieve a power cut so smooth like that. i will have a good read up for you mate and let you know my thoughts after some research s:) :) s:)
just an addition, looking at your graph, the only points that match the one you posted are pre boost, everything after shows 20hp higher at any given point very linear across the entire graph, this leads me to believe your boost is simply lower than the one in the other graph. where do you have your boost guage plumbed into? don't forget restrictions in the intake system reduce pressure, so if it is at the turbo compressor, you may have a few psi less at the inlet. less boost is less power out and out. my earlier observations were skewed by the fact i was not aware the mapper deliberately made that shape so ignore them all.
also be aware that boost guages are crap,especially at these pressure levels which really are quite minimal, so difference from one guage to another may also mean you think you're running more than you are. I once put four of my boost guages i had laying around on a pipe and put a foot pump on it, only two guages showed the same figure, one i think faulty was £180, so money doesnt even mean it works s:( :( s:( . for accuracy try to get at least three guages and put them on the same pressure line and only trust the guage that shows the same figure as another. so my next step personally would be to get a reliable guage plumbed into the inlet directly, and tbh buy a new actuator, if yours is that siezed its probably knackered anyway and could be weak.. what actuator is on it? is it just a garrett? just get the same part number version and put a heat shield over it this time so it doesnt corrode or die s:) :) s:) If its a typical garrett type, then tweaking the actuator a bit here or there really wont make much difference if any.. the chamber on them is sooo big that a bit of pressure just opens them reguardless of spring tension.. so you probably just have a weak actuator, you could test this with a foot pump and see what pressure it opens at and compare it to a known good one (or just look online for the figures from others as it should be easy to find)
Heres the actuator before it came off
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b198/m03ppz00/Blue%20MR2/actuator.jpg)
The dark bar with the nut welded on the end is supposed to turn on the metal rod I suspect. But mine is well seized. It doesn't help theres nothing on the other side to get a spanner on, pilars just chew up the metal rod.
Oh The ECU is a toyota piggy back. It has its own loom that plugs into the stock ECU. The MAP sensor is part of that piggy back ECU. My boost gauge is an electronic one so I have connected its MAP sensor at the same point as the TTE sensor on a very short piece of boost pipe and T piece. The majority of the run to the boost gauge is electrical wire.
EDIT - the boost feed for both my gauge and the TTE MAP is taken at the throttle body by the look of it. So its after all the pipe work and intercooler. So the pressure reading should be correct (assuming the gauge is accurate). The actuator is fine too, it moves okay under pressure by hand.
My SPA electrical always showed some funny figures, never did trust it. go on ebay pickup a five pound mechanical one to verify it reads okay or test it against another known device if possible.
meanwhile i would be definitely getting a footpump on that actuator see when it opens (on car is fine). again i woudlnt trust the pumps guage, just pop a boost guage inline. what models the actutor? i have a couple here that look similar so i could test opening pressures on them once you get a figure if they are the same.
Quote from: "stargazer30"The actuator is fine too, it moves okay under pressure by hand.
The actuator strength is the boost control on this kind of setup, knowing it holds the wastegate shut is good, knowing its not siezed is good, but does not confirm the actuator is fine. if the internal diaphram has become leaky, or the internal spring weakened, then it will create less boost than a new item because it will open at a lower psi s:) :) s:)
on some actuators the spring pretension ajustment makes a difference to the boost because the spring is so much stronger than the force of the actuator, on these types the actuator is so strong that adding pretension is kinda like adding one more strand of cotton thread when trying to hold back an elephant. even adding a helper spring wont make a difference barely, the ajustment arm is normally there simply to ensure the right length so the wastegate is held shut s:) :) s:)
the pressure you pump into the actutor before it opens is directly the boost it will run, so you can find that with a footpump.
you could save pennies trying a new one by using other methods like manual boost controlers, these stop the boost getting to the actuator early on, so hold it shut longer, meaning you boost earlier as the wastegate wont creep early on, you can also use them to raise the boost level if you so desire. cheap enough on ebay.