This is going to be a long post, so if you need to use the toilet, go now. s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Also, I have almost zero idea how engines work, so some the post may not make strict sense, as I'm just going off memory. Still, is interesting reading...
My car is due for it's first service on Monday, and after reading all the potential problems with regard to the pre-cats I thought that it might be an idea to get the technicians to check mine while it's at Mr T's. So off I trundle to my local dealer (Hill's in Bishops Stortford) where it's booked in.
The main reason I went in there was to ask one of the service guys which bolts needed undoing to allow access to the O2 sensors (I know there are many photos on here, but I prefer to be shown in person: no offence all!) so that I could give them a good oiling over the weekend to try and prevent any of them shearing off, and causing them major headaches. So far, so good.
I spoke to the actual service manager about this (didn't get his name), and was basically advised not to bother having the pre-cats checked, as they don't exist on the MR2. This puzzled me slightly, so I asked him to go into further detail. In a condensed version, this is what he said:
1. There are no pre-cats on the 1ZZ-FE engine; there is only the main CAT material itself.
2. The honeycomb you can see through the O2 sockets is simply the main CAT which starts at the top of the manifold just after the O2 sockets, and ends down at the 3rd sensor.
3. If any pre-cat/cat material was broken up in the manifold, there is almost no chance at all that it could get back into the engine, as the valve that let's the exhaust gas to escape is only open for a split-second, and is pushed out with such force that there is almost zero chance of any back-suction.
4. The problem's that some owners have found with their engines blowing up is NOT caused by anything to do with the pre-cats: The reason for the increased oil consumption followed by the engine going to that great scrapyard in the sky is because the pre-facelift engines had a problem with the pistons working so hard that they started boring out the cylinders themselves, eventually leading to the oil problem and the engine breaking. This is the only known problem with the 1ZZ-FE engine, and was addressed in the facelift model so it shouldn't happen again.
5. The only time it's worth checking the pre-cats/cat is just before the warranty expires, as that's the only time they'll do any investigation into any possible engine damage. Checking the pre-cats/CAT regularly isn't worth it, as the risk of snapping a thread/O2 sensor itself far outweighs any benefit.
6. The other reason they don't recommend the checking of the CAT is that even if there is evidence of damage to them, how far back do they go to investigate? Do they strip the entire engine block just on the off chance that there is any damage? That's a lot of labour time just for a 'what if?' scenario.
Plenty of talking points there, I think you'll agree. Let me state for the record now that the guy was very helpful, and more than willing to spend as long with me as necessary to explain everything in as much detail as I wanted, and even went to the lengths of going into the workshop and coming out with the manifold from a Previa just to explain things a bit clearer. I have no doubt he was trying to be as helpful as possible. He was also quick to order a couple of new wheels for my '2 as they are blistering, without even wanting to inspect the car. s:D :D s:D
Regardless, there are a couple of other things I noticed from my visit. First, when I said 'pre-cat' to him, he looked genuinely baffled. After 5 minutes of explaining, I gave up and just pointed him to a few of the pictures recently posted in this forum; that was when the whole 'That's not a pre-cat, that's just the main CAT itself" thing came about.
Secondly, just how much of a worry ARE the pre-cats? If there is no chance of them getting sucked into the engine, then why are we gutting them? If Toyota were aware of a problem with the 1ZZ (as in the 'piston boring out the cylinder' scenario), and have corrected it, why should we still be concerned? Ok, so that last point is moot to all pre-facelift owners, but still...
Have I been fobbed off here, or does the guy actually have a point?
The man speaketh from his arse...
1. There are no pre-cats on the 1ZZ-FE engine; there is only the main CAT material itself.
Yes there are. And they are clearly detailed within the official Toyota workshop manuals
2. The honeycomb you can see through the O2 sockets is simply the main CAT which starts at the top of the manifold just after the O2 sockets, and ends down at the 3rd sensor.
No it isnt... See my photos in the precat removal post for proof
3. If any pre-cat/cat material was broken up in the manifold, there is almost no chance at all that it could get back into the engine, as the valve that let's the exhaust gas to escape is only open for a split-second, and is pushed out with such force that there is almost zero chance of any back-suction.
Cobblers... Gas can go in as well as out under certain closed throttle conditions. The thing you need to search for is "valve overlap"
4. The problem's that some owners have found with their engines blowing up is NOT caused by anything to do with the pre-cats: The reason for the increased oil consumption followed by the engine going to that great scrapyard in the sky is because the pre-facelift engines had a problem with the pistons working so hard that they started boring out the cylinders themselves, eventually leading to the oil problem and the engine breaking. This is the only known problem with the 1ZZ-FE engine, and was addressed in the facelift model so it shouldn't happen again.
Aside from the obvious question of do the pistons in a later engine do less work? He has a point regarding oil blowing past the rings. Toyota have updated the engine in this area.
5. The only time it's worth checking the pre-cats/cat is just before the warranty expires, as that's the only time they'll do any investigation into any possible engine damage. Checking the pre-cats/CAT regularly isn't worth it, as the risk of snapping a thread/O2 sensor itself far outweighs any benefit.
Thats the only time its worth checking if you have to foot the labour bill for your customers concerns. If its your car, its worth checking a little more often...
There are cases of post-facelift engines having this problem, so that's one point that he's got wrong for a start.
He also doesnt seem to know what happens when the VVTi kicks in. Basically the exhaust and inlet valves are open at the same time in order to allow more of the exhaust gasses to escape. There are however times when the piston starts to descend before the exhaust valve closes. This means that gas CAN be drawn back into the cylinder from the exhaust tract, and with the PRE cat being so close to the top of the manifold if anything were to come loose (as we have allready proven on multiple occasions it can do) it would be sucked back into the engine. Given that the ceramic material is extremely abrasive even a tiny amount in the cylinder bore will cause a scratch leading to increased oil consumption.
Steve maybe you should get a job at Toyota mate s:wink: :wink: s:wink: U know what your talking about s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Semantics eh? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I'll tackle these in order:
1. & 2.
There are three CAT 'cells' on the Roadster - two in the manifold and a larger third. They are made of the same construction.
We refer to the two cells within the manifold as pre-CATs. For *current* emissions they are not needed, the third cell is large enough to handle the exhaust output. The two smaller cells are deliberately placed as close as possible the engine in order for them to heat quickly from cold (the catalytic process requires a bit of temperature!) and this is to meet the Euro 2005 emissions standard which tests engine emissions from cold.
3.
During over-run during certain cam timings the exhaust valve is open during start the intake stroke. Combined with the exhaust gas pressure wave 'stuff' (which is way beyond my understand) it's quite feasible for 'debris' to be sucked in from the exhaust side. This is all beyond me to prove, and unfortunately I'm under non-disclosure with my source of information.
4.
There is a documented problem with the oil scraper rings on the original spec engine. I am certain this has caused engine failures, but this does not in itself otherwise disprove the 'pre-CAT problem'.
5.
From his point of this this is quite valid. Equally, 'we' would recommend otherwise.
6.
Understandable. I personally viewpoint is that if they check and document (always get everything in writing!), and later have an engine failure (ie, post warranty), coupled with further degradation of the CAT, you could make a case that the CAT was the failure point.
Overall, while we may or may not agree with his views, I'm glad you have a dealer that is taking a customer service seriously and dealing with your queries in detail.
Change the mechanician! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
if that is the case then why was the left hand chamber of my 'so called non-existent pre-cat' totally empty of any honeycomb substance when i had my engine replaced and the majority of what was left was either in the engine block or the main cat.
even the mechanic who fixed my car said that the was no reason for them to be there except for the low emissions and he recomended that they be removed so they dont break down again and get sucked back into the engine via the vvti unit.
shame i didnt act more on stevej's diagnostic instead of a toyota trained tech, might have saved myself £2000.
I think it's all been said, but basically good intentioned and friendlty as he may have been the man is talking out of his arse.
If you doubt it, net time your there ask him to sjhow you where in the worksop manual it says thats it'sall one cat and that the precats don't exist.
I can even give yiou the relevant page numbers to quote him.
Failing that collar me at JAE as I wil bring teh workshop manuals with me,.
Thanks for all the replies people: I was never quite sure if he was wrong or not, as I'm not that mechanically minded, but I think I'm pretty straight on it now.
I know that this is a job that a lot of people have done (and do) to their cars themselves, but I'm still not too keen (despite the excellent guides! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ), so while the car is in for it's service, do you think that I should insist on the pre-cats being checked (bearing in mind the service managers attitude towards the problem; not that I'm suggesting all the guys in the department are the same)? Or should I use a different dealer (How's the one in Chelmsford?), or just wait until the car is almost at the end of warranty? After all, that's the only time I'll worry because it'll get expensive after then! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
While my car was in for warranty work i tried to get them to check the pre-cats as it's coming to the end of it's warranty.
I'd forgotten to mention this when booking the car in originally so i went in and added it to the list of things to be done, unfortunately neither of the 2 people i usually dealt with were there. Anyway i explained what i wanted done as best as i could - it turns out the bloke who worked on the car checked the performance of the main cat once it had warmed up s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
At least they did the work, even if it wasn't what i wanted. (NB: i read the description of the work to be done (afterwards) and it wasn't clear, so no blame on the mechanic).
Moral of the story: make sure the guy booking the car in understands exactly what you want done.
Valve overlap, my friend. Part of that environmentally sound philospophy, eating one's own waste. Sport Compact Car did an investigation into certain NISSAN engine failures... very similar to the situation with our cars. They proposed that valve overlap in the NISSAN engine was an integral part of their self-destruct problems.
Precat material is very hard ceramic and it makes perfect sense to me that it could get into the cylinders. Sloppy bores is another thing I believe. How about warped rings due to lean burning? I believe that one, too. I heard that from a Honda mechanic who sounded like he knew his stuff. Precat failure followed by kerpoof is a sad tale that is repeated over and over. Precat failure + valve overlap seems to be what "turbocharges" the destruction process... and may be THE or ONE OF THE things that kicks it off in the first place. I'm a pessimist. I think there were and maybe still are multiple things wrong with the design. There will be a 2ZZ in my car someday, maybe even a Lotus 2ZZ.
Quote from: "ekona"1. There are no pre-cats on the 1ZZ-FE engine; there is only the main CAT material itself.
2. The honeycomb you can see through the O2 sockets is simply the main CAT which starts at the top of the manifold just after the O2 sockets, and ends down at the 3rd sensor.
I must be a bit tired...couldn't stop laughing after these first two s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Reminds me of the Star Wars Jedi powers... s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
QuotePre-cats don't damage engine?!
Well I for sure will soon find out...
Check out Toyota's official "MR2 New Car Features" in which they explain very clearly how the VVT-i system operates. (p.41-44.) [You can order this excellent book at any Toyota dealer for 10 quid, juste quote: Pub. No. NCF180E]
Well, here is just a quote from the table of operation states: "At medium load" - "
Increasing overlap to increase internal EGR for pumping loss elimination" - "Better fuel economy. Improved emission control"
In fact, overlap (for internal EGR) takes place at just about all operating states except during idling; at low temperatures; and upon starting/stopping the engine.
So in effect, this is official Toyota evidence that ceramic particles from a collapsing pre-cat (or warm-up CAT or front CAT - whatever Toyota wants to call them) can enter the cylinders; especially if the main cat is blocked as the difference in pressure between exhaust and intake will be massive.
I'm starting to wonder if Toyota isn't using the MR2 Roadster as a "test bed" for this new technology...
A relatively low production car (to minimise the risk of damaging their reputation if this car gets a bad name on reliability);
a type of car that will be driven "hard" (not like your average Yaris driven by mum).
My wife being in New Product Development for a very large company, I have heard of cases similar to this. After all, the Toyota engineers who designed the engine and the pre-cats must be completely aware of the potential risk/problems. If they feel the technology isn't 100% safe for say a "normal lifespan" (e.g. 100k miles), they will not use them on the mass produced models. Not until the technology has been made reliable enough.
Well, all I can do now is wait until the engine gets checked out... But I'm a wee bit less optimistic now. s:( :( s:(
I said the exact same thing about it possibly being a "test bed". Why put more environmentally friendly stuff on a sportcar (OK, "sporty car")? Lower production means lower cost to fix if it has problems.
Beanie, I think you are right about the spyder being a test bed for new emissions technology. If only a few people make a fuss about blown engines then Toyota isn't really hurt by that. Time will tell. Look and see if precats using this type of material are being used on new models. I'll bet not!! I think that hybrid....followed by totally electric is the way things will be going. We are a dying breed.....
Not sure about this, but you may be able to adjust valve overlap with Power FC if you change the VVT (Variable Valve Timing) map. Someone on SC (I think it was LittleRocket) said that one of them (exhaust I think) has fixed timing? I forget. Messing with VVT is not something I feel up to.
A very interesting thread. Can I ask what oil consumption rates owners of pre-facelift models get? My 2 is just over 3 years old and has pretty low mileage, 9,500 when I bought it last September, and about 13-14,000 now. Having had 2 Toyotas previously, ( my Celica, a K reg, and my wifes new Yaris) both of which used hardly any oil between changes, I was very surprised to have to put nearly a litre in the other day to bring it back up to the full mark. s:? :? s:? Is this normal?
Quote from: "Beanie"I said the exact same thing about it possibly being a "test bed". Why put more environmentally friendly stuff on a sportcar (OK, "sporty car")? Lower production means lower cost to fix if it has problems.
IMHO the reason for the additional "environmentally friendly stuff" is to allow the vehicle to be sold into the US market (particularly California) due to the tighter emissions controls.
The problems that are showing up are because the car is such a low volume seller the cost of the parts needs to be kept low - hence the use of cheap-shit ceramic cats instead of the metal ones that should have been used that close to the engine.
Quote from: "SteveJ"The problems that are showing up are because the car is such a low volume seller the cost of the parts needs to be kept low - hence the use of cheap-s**t ceramic cats instead of the metal ones that should have been used that close to the engine.
an interesting and if somewhat contraversial theory, remember that in a lot of engineering items nowadays that involve heat, the ceramic items are the best and normally only open to the elite products because of the costs involved in manufactuer and R&D.
Ceramics normally dissipate the heat a lot better than metal and at that distance where they are in the hottest area by not absorbing it in the first place. The problem in my mind is the metal case, which is expanding and contracting at a resonably fast rate, whilst the ceramic interior isn't. When the metal is expanded outwards, ie its f-ing hot, is the ceramic core becoming loose? and likewise once its cooled is it compressing the ceramic core?
Quote from: "ekona"So off I trundle to my local dealer (Hill's in Bishops Stortford) where it's booked in.
I was going to put my car in for servicing there on Fri / Sat but once again I ask myself why bother s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "ekona"The main reason I went in there was to ask one of the service guys which bolts needed undoing to allow access to the O2 sensors (I know there are many photos on here, but I prefer to be shown in person: no offence all!)
It is very easy (3 mins max) and if you come to JAE I'm sure it will be repeated many times. There's no number of bolts apart from the acutal bolt holding each sensor. The only thing you need to 'worry' about is disconnecting each lead and having an o2 socket but each time someone buys one on here they get cheaper so have a search for the latest post.
Quote from: "ekona"I spoke to the actual service manager about this (didn't get his name), and was basically advised not to bother having the pre-cats checked, as they don't exist on the MR2.
Was he a fairly big bloke? because I think I spoke to him about changing my rusting wheel nuts and he was friendly enough. But I do get the impression even from ordering hardtop fixing parts, that because the MR2 is not serviced / fixed as much as say the Yaris, that you won't find anyone with sufficient knowledge unless they have a manual in their hands.
It's a shame he didn't have a manual to illustrate what he meant because he may have changed his views pretty quickly s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
My first reply to him would have been so you say only one cat but there is 3 sensors, WHY?
I beleive thats why the ceraminc sits ina glassfibre cocoon to allow for expansion
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Quote from: "SteveJ"The problems that are showing up are because the car is such a low volume seller the cost of the parts needs to be kept low - hence the use of cheap-s**t ceramic cats instead of the metal ones that should have been used that close to the engine.
an interesting and if somewhat contraversial theory, remember that in a lot of engineering items nowadays that involve heat, the ceramic items are the best and normally only open to the elite products because of the costs involved in manufactuer and R&D.
Ceramics normally dissipate the heat a lot better than metal and at that distance where they are in the hottest area by not absorbing it in the first place. The problem in my mind is the metal case, which is expanding and contracting at a resonably fast rate, whilst the ceramic interior isn't. When the metal is expanded outwards, ie its f-ing hot, is the ceramic core becoming loose? and likewise once its cooled is it compressing the ceramic core?
I dont think thats the problem... The cat is suspended within the metal case by a jacket of glass-fibre matting. This jacket is able to absorb any differential expansion and prevent damage to the cats. Also the extrnal edge of the cat matrix is particularly thick in comparison to its soft centre, making it quite strong.
The problem I think is the exhaust gasses themselves. Look closely and you will notice that the top of the precat is subjected to high velocity gas pulses coming from alternate directions. A normal cat further downstream only has to deal with gasses coming straight into the matrix at a more favorable angle, usually flowing straight into it. The rpecats though have the gas flow coming in from an angle, first one way with one cylinder, then from the opposite direction with the other cylinder. The forces that this imprts to the very thin and vrittel walls of the cat material is, I believe, what causes the failure.
Quote from: "GSB"The forces that this imprts to the very thin and vrittel walls of the cat material is, I believe, what causes the failure.
then surely every '2 should suffer from failing precats and not just a small percentage?
Quote from: "markiii"I beleive thats why the ceraminc sits ina glassfibre cocoon to allow for expansion
and that shoots my idea down in flames then! s:? :? s:?
I get the impression from inspecting different photos of pre-cats that the earlier models ('00-'01) have thinner walls (or perhaps less catalytic material coated on the walls) than later models. The holes on later models look more "round" and earlier models more "square".
Maybe it's just a photographic effect due to focus/lighting/angle of incidence; but I think it's mainly earlier models that have suffered from this problem.
Quote from: "Tomr2"then surely every '2 should suffer from failing precats and not just a small percentage?
I reckon some factors could contribute to the failure:
Intense driving conditions (track days, mountain driving, fast motorway driving (>110 mph) where the engine will be producing 100 kW of power over long periods of time instead of 15-50 kW for "normal" urban driving. (Hey but surely the '2 was designed for intense driving?)
Heat (in its original Japanese specification, the '2 has none of that thick sound proofing under the engine hood and under the engine bay) In the Euro model, the engine is all wrapped up in a "duvet" and on hot days, if you open the hood, you can see a column of intense heat coming out.
Perhaps the fuel quality and type of oil can also play a contributing part to the pre-cat failure. (Although I've always only used Shell/BP/Esso fuels and premium quality fully synthetic oils like Mobil 1...)
I think the Toyota engineers could give you a much better answer s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "Beanie"Not sure about this, but you may be able to adjust valve overlap with Power FC if you change the VVT (Variable Valve Timing) map. Someone on SC (I think it was LittleRocket) said that one of them (exhaust I think) has fixed timing? I forget. Messing with VVT is not something I feel up to.
Yeah, you can. The VVT-i system changes the intake cam phase related to its driving gear. So basically you could totally remove the overlap with PFC, assuming the valves wouldn't hit the pistons or anything...but I bet it wouldn't be the best option in any way.
QuoteHey but surely the '2 was designed for intense driving?
The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis
QuotePerhaps the fuel quality and type of oil can also play a contributing part to the pre-cat failure. (Although I've always only used Shell/BP/Esso fuels and premium quality fully synthetic oils like Mobil 1...)
Im sure its been said that fully synthetic has a habit of getting too thin when worked hard, enabling it to get past the piston rings. surely that cant do the pre-cats any good!
Im sticking to semi-synth, it's what the book says after all
Quote from: "Tomr2"The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis
I don't think there's really anything wrong with the engine itself. If we didn't have the precats and/or the engine bay would get as much cooling air as in typical front engined car, I'm sure the engine would be just as reliable as on any other car.
People do race/track Avensis, Corolla and Celica as well and the same engine in those don't seem to have this issue...
Quote from: "Tomr2"The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis
I think just about all car manufacturers use as few engine units as possible (too expensive otherwise?) For instance, the 2.2l Opel/Vauxhall powers just about anything in their range, from the Astra, family saloons, people carriers to the (Lotus Elise like) Speedster (VX220?). And frankly, this 2.2l engine isn't a patch on anything Honda or Toyota build.
The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine. (BEAMS=Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System.) The 2ZZ is an even better version of it! It is also the very first all aluminium engine Toyota have produced. By definition, this engine is perfect for light weight sports cars (Lotus have chosen the Toyota 2ZZ over Honda, BMW, etc.) or as a matter of fact, any other car that needs 138bhp, a good torque range, low weight and good fuel economy. Even if it is a Yaris s:) :) s:)
The only real problem the "izzy" has is that couple of ceramic time-bombs stuck to it. s:flame: :flame: s:flame:
Quote from: "Tomr2"Im sure its been said that fully synthetic has a habit of getting too thin when worked hard, enabling it to get past the piston rings. surely that cant do the pre-cats any good!
Im sticking to semi-synth, it's what the book says after all
Sure, oil too thin that separates and/or gets past the piston rings is not a good thing for the CATs.
I had often heard about this rumour regarding fully synthetic. However I once had the opportunity to discuss it with a professional engineer (who works with the Swiss Porsche racing team). Not going into all the details, he told me it's essentially a question of quality: how the properties of the oil evolve with use, temperature and time. In any type of serious racing only fully synthetic oils are used (in fact in F1 even the fuel they use is "100% synthetic")
I asked him about the rumour that fully synth gets too thin. He thinks the rumour is due to the synthetic "5W30" grade oil that has caused many cases of engine failures (BTW this is the very grade recommended in the book! And that's the very stuff I used to use before switching to full synthetic s:? :? s:? ). This oil is apparently far too thin when hot (30 is the viscosity when hot) and can separate. The only real "purpose" for this grade of oil is fuel economy (ideal for a Yaris!)
Non synthetic or semi-synthetic will deteriorate and become thinner with age much quicker that 100% synthetic. I fancied using 15W50 oil (the stuff he recommended me) but it's frankly too expensive and difficult to find. Instead I use 5W40 Mobil 1 which has a pretty good reputation.
Quote from: "phat"The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine.
Where did you read that? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
So far I've only seen BEAMS used for the latest 3S-GE generation with DUAL VVT-i system s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "phat"The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine.
Where did you read that? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
So far I've only seen BEAMS used for the latest 3S-GE generation with DUAL VVT-i system s:? :? s:?
It's a quote from Toyota's official press release for the launch of the MR-S (Tokyo, October 12th 1999): [Unfortunately I don't have it in electronic format, but it appeared in the Swiss Toyota Magazine that was issued at the Geneva car show in March 2000.]
Here's an extract from it:
QuoteToyota (TMC) waved the green flag today for sales of its long-awaited, two-seater, soft-top sports car - the MR-S......
The chief components of the MR-S's ...... Power pours forth from its high-performance, 1.8 litre, BEAMS 1ZZ-FE engine equipped with VVT-i...
There is also a more detailed section on the engine:
QuoteThe in-line, four-cylinder, 1.8 litre, BEAMS 1ZZ-FE engine with VVT-i, a high compression ratio (10.0:1), and an oblique squish combustion chamber produces ample low- and mid-range torque.
[By the way the good low and mid range torque are the main reasons given by Toyota for choosing the 1ZZ over the 2ZZ]
QuoteAn aluminium block and resin intake manifolds help reduce overall weight.
Personally, I think the "1zzy" is a fine engine indeed; although given the option, I would have chosen the 2ZZ s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
First you can hear a fine (that comes suddenly) rattle between 2500-4500Rpms and comes quick louder and louder.
We let dismantle the oilpan and they opened all the holder from the crankshaft Glidebearing.
The first and the second Cylinder had a destroyed Glide Part downside, the top Half Parts from 1&2 and the whole from 3&4 and the Crankshaft are like new.
Toyota said it wasn`t enough Oil in, you can/must pay the whole repair s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
That happend after a Year of cutting out the precats, and the warranty. The Car is 4 Years old with 45K Kmeters s:cry: :cry: s:cry: .
I mean that could be the Reason of the Oil consumption, because the Crankshaft is in a bad angle to the Cylinders, and the Oil starts leaking trough the precats destroy them and these blocked the Maincat. The heat makes the last bit.
Sorry, but i don`t know the right Name in english technical translation
Your meaning is clear enough. Can you produce receipts for oil changes? Just because the oil level was low does not mean that it is YOUR fault. Any number of things could cause excessive oil consumption.
That's a wee bit too easy for Toyota to put the blame on low oil levels as if it were the owner's fault...
I could understand that they would object to cases where the owner has evidently totally neglected the car (no services or checks) or in the case of a very high mileage engine (>100,000mi / 160,000km).
But if there is very high oil consumption (due to damaged piston rings/cylinder liners), even regular oil checks (e.g. each time you refuel) wouldn't be enough from what I gathered from other owner's testimonies. Toyota cannot expect owners to check the oil on a twice-daily basis...
I have partly desintegrated pre-cats but my oil consumption is apparently still normal. So, I do not think that the engine is at fault or has a design problem which results in high oil consumption that consequently destroys the pre-cats... etc.
I believe in most cases the problem starts with the pre-cats failing.
What needs to be investigated is whether ceramic particles actually re-enter the cylinders (through what Toyota calls internal EGR) and destroy the engine.
I've contacted a laboratory that carries out various oil analysis and spoken with an expert there about the pre-cat failure. Because they have not yet had any such requests, they do not have any standard test to detect the presence of either ceramics or platinum/iridium/paladium in the oil. However, he said he would try to find a way of detecting the presence of CAT material in the oil.
In my pre-cat failure case, what I want to know is whether the engine has already suffered any damage--- that, the oil analysis can say for sure.
If the presence of CAT material in the oil can be verified, that would be compelling evidence that this type of pre-cat induced engine failure is due to a design fault. Warranty, or no warranty, Toyota should take responsibility in that case.
Quote from: "Beanie"Your meaning is clear enough. Can you produce receipts for oil changes? Just because the oil level was low does not mean that it is YOUR fault. Any number of things could cause excessive oil consumption.
The receipts aren`t the Problems (Toyota makes every Service)
The strange Thing is that the Underneath from 2 Glidebearings are completely destroyed, and nothing else.
Two Weeks ago from this incident, the Car was in the Garage for the 45000 Km Check.
The Rattle Noise cames up by entering the Motorway without any Lamps.
After a first Check by Toyota they said, no Problem you can drive the Car, what we don`t with this Noise.
After phones and Meetings with Toyota is one Thing clear.
Toyota Switzerland won`t know anything about Motorproblems, but they have the new Shortblock on Stock, and will catch 10`000 SFr. for the Block and the work to change it. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
With references to the MR2-Forums they were surprised about our experiences/knowledge about the Car. s8) 8) s8)
We know the Car is out of Warranty, but i mean Toyota pays the block and we the work.
We will see whats going on. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
What is the engine warranty period in Switzerland?
I would keep trying to get Toyota to cover the cost of labor, too. I hope it goes well for you.
There are articles on SpyderChat (not sure about here) on doing a 2ZZ-GE engine swap. That is what I would do if I had to pay to have my engine replaced. There are about 8 or so people on SpyderChat with knowledge of how to do the swap, for example LittleRocket (he is in the US).
Quote from: "Beanie"What is the engine warranty period in Switzerland?
I would keep trying to get Toyota to cover the cost of labor, too. I hope it goes well for you.
There are articles on SpyderChat (not sure about here) on doing a 2ZZ-GE engine swap. That is what I would do if I had to pay to have my engine replaced. There are about 8 or so people on SpyderChat with knowledge of how to do the swap, for example LittleRocket (he is in the US).
The Period is 3 Years, and no Chance to get it longer like the German People. They can get 2 Years longer for about 220 Euros, its nearly the same courrency in $.
The swap with the 2ZZ would be a Dream in Switzerland. Here ist a plus from 20% HP allowed from the Traffic Control Department.
Upper them you must have a confirmation Document from Toyota that the Chassis is strong enough for the plus on HP.
Toyota CH is so conservative that you never get some Documents for changing some Parts outside their normal Configuration.
The other Chance could be, you let all the Departments test your Car with this Modification (Smogtest etc), Badly on this Way, you pay 4000$ and you are Weeks on the run, to catch the Documents.
With this illegal Mod to drive trough our little country is fairly impossible, and you loose the permit/ Drive License for Months for this.
I will let you informed, and thanks for the comments