Hey all,
The latest issue with the '2 is that the car is just all over the road. Its always been a little skittish at the front end and tram lines a fair amount, but its now got to the point that on the motorway its just all over the place --- feels like its constantly being caught in a crosswind when there is none.
Symptoms:
Fake cross wind @ motorway speeds
Massive amounts of tram lining
Can feel every little part of the road surface - down to the smallest pebble
Tried so far:
All new Toyo's on the back - and pressure @ 28 front, 36 rear (when cold)
Had it up off the ground and tested all wheels for play - none found
Had it aligned to within a mm of its life
What next? Would be great to get some easy to test suggestions before I spend another grand on the bloody thing (cos if I'm replacing shocks, then BC coilovers are going on!)
Thanks,
Tim.
I found 36 on the rears a bit skittish when I fitted my Toyos. I experimented and reverted down to 34 and for about 8 months now and it hasn't missed a beat with both daily motorway travel and hard weekend driving. That's on stock suspension though.
I did also get a bit of wobbly feel on the front when doing long fast corners but my recent front strut brace addition has completely removed this.
Thanks Andy - will try lowering the rear pressure.
I should mention that I'm on standard shocks but lowered springs. Have Matt's mid bracing and front struct brace on.
When hot they are going up to ~30. You need 26 cold, 28 hot (front)
No worries.
One other factor... mines a facelift and has the small fins along the front-center and in front of each wheel. These are, I believe, to help with higher speed stability and I remember reading that some PFL owners had put them on and noticed an improvement in those sorts of conditions.
Can't comment myself though as I've always had them but mine has never been bad at high-speeds to be honest (it just got a bit worse with the wrong pressured Toyos on). Might be worth looking into as well?
Toyos on the front too yes?
How old are they?
Quote from: "dcod"When hot they are going up to ~30. You need 26 cold, 28 hot (front)
That's a good point.
Just to clarify on my initial reply, I'm running mine at 28/34 cold (so in effect 30/36 hot) and for me it feels solid.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Toyos on the front too yes?
How old are they?
Yes - toyo's on the front too. They were on the car when I bought it off Matt nearly 2 yrs ago (and have not lost any tred depth... though I've gone through 3 sets of rears in that time). I think they were new on when I got the car (Matt?) so I guess they are about 2 yrs old.
Quote from: "AndyM"Quote from: "dcod"When hot they are going up to ~30. You need 26 cold, 28 hot (front)
That's a good point.
Just to clarify on my initial reply, I'm running mine at 28/34 cold (so in effect 30/36 hot) and for me it feels solid.
I will play with tyre pressure then - first reduce rear, then if not better I will also reduce front (when cold)
Quote from: "AndyM"One other factor... mines a facelift and has the small fins along the front-center and in front of each wheel. These are, I believe, to help with higher speed stability and I remember reading that some PFL owners had put them on and noticed an improvement in those sorts of conditions.
I was going to mention this too. Do you have anything in front of the wheels with the new bumper on there?
Quote from: "StuC"Quote from: "AndyM"One other factor... mines a facelift and has the small fins along the front-center and in front of each wheel. These are, I believe, to help with higher speed stability and I remember reading that some PFL owners had put them on and noticed an improvement in those sorts of conditions.
I was going to mention this too. Do you have anything in front of the wheels with the new bumper on there?
Hmmm - does not look like it ---- what do they look like, anyone got a picture?
When its was tracked was it the nut that was torqued up or was it the bolt? Sometimes people do the nut and that wrong as it should be the bolt due to the nut design.
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Hmmm - does not look like it ---- what do they look like, anyone got a picture?
Here is a thread talking about it with a pic
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303) l
Quote from: "rbuckingham"When its was tracked was it the nut that was torqued up or was it the bolt? Sometimes people do the nut and that wrong as it should be the bolt due to the nut design.
No idea at all TBH. Is this something I can check / tighten without upsetting the alignment?
Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Hmmm - does not look like it ---- what do they look like, anyone got a picture?
Here is a thread talking about it with a pic
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303) l
Ahh, almost 100% sure that these did not get transferred over. Will see if they still have my old bumper (very doubtful) or if not source some from somewhere. Do they actually seem to make a difference?
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Do they actually seem to make a difference?
Don't know but look around in your nearest car park and you'll notice many many cars have them.
The thing is, the 2 is very light at the front and will be prone to the front wheels being lifted at speed.
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Hmmm - does not look like it ---- what do they look like, anyone got a picture?
Here is a thread talking about it with a pic
l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303) l
Ahh, almost 100% sure that these did not get transferred over. Will see if they still have my old bumper (very doubtful) or if not source some from somewhere. Do they actually seem to make a difference?
That's the ones. Can't say myself (I've always had them) but I'm sure someone in the last 12 months was suffering from high speed jitters and put them on and it worked. Might have been Flipside thinking about it, I'll have a search.
My memory sometimes astounds me s:) :) s:) Flipside's thread here... l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=44749#p523850 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=44749#p523850) l
Not a set in stone conclusion to it though as Dyn-Evo said that it had a small but not complete improvement when they did it.
Was just gonna post my pictures Andy, thanks for saving me the bother! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Hmm with my Pre fl wheels im running 28-29 front and 35 back i found 36 to be too much on the back, ive found this to be the best combination.
I've had trouble with Toyos and Marangonis when I've gone through a few rears and kept the fronts.
Sounds similar to the sensations I was getting too, I reckon your front rubber has "gone off".
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I've had trouble with Toyos and Marangonis when I've gone through a few rears and kept the fronts.
Sounds similar to the sensations I was getting too, I reckon your front rubber has "gone off".
Cool - I'll look at replacing the fronts after playing with the pressures.
Just check everything is tight at the rear end as you've had so much work done there recently. I've just driven from Edinburgh with a car that had a bad bush on the rear and that was all over the place as well.
+1 to old front rubber as the most likely culprit. With the back end drive pushing the front along, the front compound and tread can do all manner of funny things if they aren't up to scratch. Those 'crosswind' symptoms of straight line stability can be typical of tired tyres.
Have a check for uneven wear across the face of the fronts too. There may be nothing you can do about that on the stock setup but if they've started wearing down on the inner shoulders you will get those stability issues and know its time to replace! I've eeked out a bit more straight line control on my uneven fronts by bringing the front camber in by .25 degrees. If you're planning to spend money on BCs in the future this tweakability is one of the joys you'll get thrown in s:D :D s:D .
(Aside: If you're at the stage where stock suspension is likely to be getting weary and you're looking at your '2 as a car for keeps, the cost of BCs is very easy to justify when you offset it against the cost of uprated dampers and topmounts - and possibly springs too. The features of geometry adjustability are then a pleasant added bonus, and you'll wonder how you ever got by without! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Over/under-torqued bush and bracing mounts shouldn't be ruled out if you've had work done and it coincides with the onset of symptoms. Post-fettle differences can usually be put down to something that was tinkered with! That said, something "bushy" would more likely rear its head under acceleration and braking rather than the vagueness that you're reporting at constant speed. Worth making sure your torques are all matched and correct though, even if its just for peace of mind.
The deflectors forward of the wheels are worth putting back on and do make a difference. Central one is doubtless useful, but the PFL without the central deflector can handle just fine, so we're getting into the realms of diminishing returns on improvement by this stage and its unlikely to be the primary cause of your grief (in my humble etc).
Thanks everyone for your replies and help. As I am away with the car this weekend (120 miles each way to Loch Goil - some motorway + some B road twisty goodness) my plan of attack is:
Today - reduce cold rear pressure to 34psi on drive over, keep fronts at 28psi
Saturday - scrabble under car and see if any bolts look loose
Sunday - reduce cold front pressure to 26psi on drive back
Monday - get some new boots for the front -- found them fitted for just £100 so cheaper than my normal monthly expenditure
Next week - see if I can get hold of some deflectors and re-fit
Hopefully, the problem will get sorted at some point in that list!
Quick progress update :
Reduced rear pressure to 34psi - seemed a little better, but still a bit wobbly.
Got it up on stands today and gave everything a good heave ho - nothing seemed loose or worn badly and all bolts seemed tight. No sign of weeping from the shocks either.
Will reduce front pressure for trip back tomorrow.
Am going to put new rubber on the front next week anyway as they looked pretty cracked and "dried out" (if you see what I mean)
Hopefully all this will get it sorted!
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Am going to put new rubber on the front next week anyway as they looked pretty cracked and "dried out" (if you see what I mean)
That'll almost definitely be the cause of your troubles if they are that bad.
Quote from: "AndyM"Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Am going to put new rubber on the front next week anyway as they looked pretty cracked and "dried out" (if you see what I mean)
That'll almost definitely be the cause of your troubles if they are that bad.
+1
If they are cracking and turning grey then they've certainly hardened up.
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Next week - see if I can get hold of some deflectors and re-fit
Not to want to jump into a sale but I do still have the ones I referred to on the earlier quoted thread s;) ;) s;) l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303#p508957 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303#p508957) l . I did just move house though so I'll have to find them!
Quote from: "onion86"No problem, I'll keep them in storage for if anyone needs them in future.
Quote from: "dcod"Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Hmmm - does not look like it ---- what do they look like, anyone got a picture?
Here is a thread talking about it with a pic: l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43303) l
Quote from: "onion86"Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Next week - see if I can get hold of some deflectors and re-fit
Not to want to jump into a sale but I do still have the ones I referred to on the earlier quoted thread s;) ;) s;) . I did just move house though so I'll have to find them!
Cool. PM me your details if /when you find them!
Another quick update:
Reduced the front pressure by 2 PSI as per my plan above. Made a huge amount of difference to tramlining. Still felt a little wobbly but its no longer in the "Holy cr*p I'm gonna die" and into the "Ekkk, that got my attention" realms.
Going to get some new front boots at the weekend and hopefully will all be sorted s:) :) s:)
Excellent news s:D :D s:D
I had a very wandery and jittery MR2, it was the NS front damper. Not leaking just no damping force to speak of.
New front dampers = stable car, even on windy motorways!
Hi rory57, how did you know the damper had no damping force, I suspect my dampers are worn out but I don't know how to test them to be sure.
Simple test if the shocks are shagged, push it corner down in turn hard if it bounces more than once its shagged, sometimes it takes 2 or 3 hard pushes down to get it bouncing. If it does bounce its so clear. Boarderline cases can be a bit difficult so be careful.
Norman
When I bought my 02 pfl it had 17in wheels all round with 4 same size tyres, my first spirited run was on the M8 to the wings and wheels show at Hadington and it was using 2 lanes to keep it in a straight line. Cured by putting on a set of staggered face lift wheels, 26 front 34 rear, and at the time I was also running with the small splitter attachments on the front. In this new configuration it was not embarrassed on the recent highland drive, so much that next year's 10th anniversary run is now booked. s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Tom
Thanks Norman I will give it a go
Just got new front tyres fitted as suggested (although the fitting centre was a little confused as to why, given I still had loads of tread). Just been out for a run - what a difference. Not only is the wobbling gone but it no longer tramlines and the ride is far smoother. Massive thanks to everyone for the help.
Good news. I have ordered centre air deflector thing. I also need to get full set mud flaps. Hopefully then ill be smoother at high speeds
Quote from: "ShieldsOnTour"Just got new front tyres fitted as suggested (although the fitting centre was a little confused as to why, given I still had loads of tread). Just been out for a run - what a difference. Not only is the wobbling gone but it no longer tramlines and the ride is far smoother. Massive thanks to everyone for the help.
Good stuff Tim. Glad to see some love for the car again. :-) :-) :-)
@Nic & Spit, good shout guys with your diagnosis. :-) :-) :-)
lamcote, glad you are making progress.
The bounce test didn't really tell me much, not really bouncy at all. I asked for the dampers to be changed 'cause I couldn't think of anything else. Like night and day the difference.
Bouncing is a sign they are shagged, no bounce and the corner comes to a prompt rest means they are likely ok .
Norman
Rory, did you go for standard replacements (KYB?) Or uprated ones of some sort?
Norman, I can't get any bounce going no matter how hard I push, guess I'd better spend my cash on a gym membership rather than the dampers!
Cheers guys