Hi all
I got my MR-2 at the beginning of the year(2004). The model has been out now for, what, nearly 4 years? I'm getting *exactly* the same problems with mine as earlier cars - the maintenance FAQ could be about my car (can't wait for the pre-cat failure s:cry: :cry: s:cry: ).
It's obvious that it's cheaper for Toyota to replace and repair the cars under warranty rather than sort the problems out at source. The only way we can get them to change this policy (IMHO) it to hit them where it really might hurt - in their reputation.
I propose we gat a petition together to send to Toyota (and maybe the consumer organizations/programs) outlining our disappointment that the company are prepared to let these (usually small) problems persist in what is, otherwise, a really good car.
What does everyone think? or has this already been done and I'm having a Monday moment? s8) 8) s8)
Regards
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
I think in principle it's a good idea, the only problem is that the MR2 and Celica will shortly finish their production runs.
Saying that I did take the step of writing to the chief designer in Japan about the quality of the wheels and finish and did get a reply.
Unfortunately it all fell down when it got to Toyota UK (franchise) who still refused at admit liability for the poor quality of the wheels!
If we where to do it we would need to have a well presented and structured letter that everyone could sign up to and submit to Toyota Japan, Europe and UK.
Anyone of your guys/girls on the forum a solicitor ??
A copy to the auto press wouldn't go a miss either.
What do you think ?
Cheers
Darren J s8) 8) s8)
Good idea,
don't ask don't get init.
For my sins I work for a firm of Solicitors. I am not legal myself, but I am sure I can get some assistance.
However, there has to substantial preparation before anything is drafted to ensure all statements and / or claims are accurate, not hearsay, and have back up these with proof positive.
For the latter it would probably take individual letters from those that have suffered, detailing their cars age and history, the problems that have occurred and the reponse received from Toyota (the company or a franchised garage).
If we have a small number of documented problems, Mr T could respond by saying that out of the total UK sales this is within an acceptable failure tolerance rate, and as such warranty claims would look after it. So the more the better. To get a real impression including Japan & USA data and owners in the mix would be very useful.
What we have to try and do is get their records of the failure rates, and either get an official line on why they are not acting on such figures, or maybe proving them to be wrong.
Added to this, if we can gain proof (from specialists) that the failures are caused by bad design, the wrong material or incorrect manufacturing specs, then our case becomes stronger.
The final matter to consider is:
What do we want them to do about it, and what are we going to do if they ignore us.
This last is the real problem. A class action against MrT would be prohibitively expensive, but without something it could just be taken as a rant, in which case MrT may well ignore us completely.
What would be interesting is the outcome if one person took MrT or their local garage to the small claims court. Costs are not high, and a "techy" owner might be able to present his own case. The outcome would depend very much on the defence offered.
Sorry its so long, and maybe somebody has entered a post before me, but it will need a person (somebody who has had the experience preferably) to do the collation.
Over to...........
roger
Quote from: "darrenjuggins"Hi Stephen,
Saying that I did take the step of writing to the chief designer in Japan about the quality of the wheels and finish and did get a reply.
Unfortunately it all fell down when it got to Toyota UK (franchise) who still refused at admit liability for the poor quality of the wheels!
If we where to do it we would need to have a well presented and structured letter that everyone could sign up to and submit to Toyota Japan, Europe and UK.
Anyone of your guys/girls on the forum a solicitor ??
A copy to the auto press wouldn't go a miss either.
What do you think ?
Cheers
Darren J s8) 8) s8)
What did Toyota UK say?
Even though tghe MR-2 stopping production, it's the principle. Toyota pride themselves on quality - and this isn't really quality!
Agreed re: press.
Regards
Stephen
We could draft up a downloadable form here and an address to send for collation. Perhaps if we have this set up the US MR2OC may come on board
Regards
Stephen
A company like Toyota trades of its reliability reputation,
They won't want there boat rocking, the cat failure thing has started to be published in motor mags like EVO and honestJohn, I bet they don't like that one little bit.
Can we do a forum poll here to see what proportion of users have had problems?
Regards
Stephen
See my earlier poll here regarding pre-cat failures:
m http://www.mr2roc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5278 (http://www.mr2roc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5278) m
Viewed 326 times and 23 people have voted... I know many of these are repeat visits by those that have voted already but all in all a poor response.
The little rattles, bubbling alloys etc do niggle on me but it's the major things like the possibility of pre-cat failure that worries me. I think we need to establish some firm numbers before we go any further with this. If people are willing we could then collate the relevant information and present that to Toyota and await their response. Without hard facts its not likely they'll pay much attention to us.
I'll scan the letter in when I have time, basically - go away, they were not interested.
I'll scan all the correspondence in so it makes sense.
but yeah at present mine already had a new cat, O2 sensors and is now going in for a strip and re-build tomorrow ! !!
Seems this engine (which is also present in the Avensis) is causing some problems for Toyota.... but they have kept it quite quiet !
I'll get the stuff on later chaps.
Cheers
Darren
Mine's probably a bit too early to have any complaints about (6 months old). Whilst I officially have nothing to complain about, I am worried about the potential catastrophic pre-cat failure. Bubbling alloys and the like I can live with, it's cosmetic, but if Mr T were willing to admit a pre-cat issue and sort it (if there indeed is one), I would worry less about my engine blowing up.
The likelihood of them admitting a problem (again, if indeed there is one) would be interesting as any removal of pre-cats would invalidate their claims on it being an Ultra Low Emissions vehicle I would think, and I can't see them wanting that tag removed.
Would there be an option for any submitted documentation to include a list of peoples names who may not have experienced difficulties, but are seriously concerned about reliability which could be a key factor to changing the vehicle - quite probably to another manufacturer?
Quote from: "Hanslow"Mine's probably a bit too early to have any complaints about (6 months old).?
Wait 3 more months.....
s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Stephen
I think you are all quite right, the only way Mr T will do anything to fix the pre cat failure situation is if the name of Toyota and quality starts to get questioned in public. I say pre cats because most of the other stuff is almost normal for any make of car, pre cats are not. If your engine eats the cats and needs replacing its going to be very expensive. The engine if maintained should easily exceed 100K miles as most others do, we should not have to be bothered about pre cats breaking up but we are.
Mr T is keeping the lid on this lot and will continue to do so if he can as its going to be less expensive than doing the decent thing and making a recall to sort it. The objective has to be make the problem public but in doing so we might all suffer in terms of increased depreciation if the car gets a bad name, its a bit like the old Mazda ? with the rotary engine, drivers used to show fingers at each other indicating how many engines they have had, I think most have blown up for good now and I dont know how Mazda ended it. Will it come to this?
Oh I did alright then 4 years and 60k before mine went :-) :-) :-)
Cheers
Darren J
(Pre - cat's and engine that is)
(Wheels - well they went before the end of the first year!)
Quote from: "1ZZ"I think you are all quite right, the only way Mr T will do anything to fix the pre cat failure situation is if the name of Toyota and quality starts to get questioned in public. I say pre cats because most of the other stuff is almost normal for any make of car, pre cats are not.
Corroded wheels and hubs at 4.5K/9 months is pretty shoddy too.
But I agree, niggles are less important.
Interesting about the effect publicity may have on second hand prices.
Regards
Stephen
If anyone thinks it's a good idea.....
I can't create a poll, but just as a tester could someone do one with the following (if multiple questions allowed?)
Have you had corroded brakes/hubs
Have you had corroded and bubbling alloys
Have you had misting headlights
Have you had hood problems
Have you had poor pait quality problems
(Am I missing anything?)
might as well add
Have you had a pre-cat failure
again!
Regards
Stephen
Regards
Stephen
Cd player volume knob problem
poor pain ? where from the seat :-) :-) :-)
you mean paint ! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
What about the metalic sound from the exhaust - this was a problem in the earlier cars like mine, a design fault which made the exhaust "ting" easily remidied with a new manifold :-) :-) :-)
D
Creaking front suspension. Had mine fixed and it's doing it again. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "darrenjuggins"poor pain ? where from the seat :-) :-) :-)
you mean paint ! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
What about the metalic sound from the exhaust - this was a problem in the earlier cars like mine, a design fault which made the exhaust "ting" easily remidied with a new manifold :-) :-) :-)
D
OK, It's been a hard day.
s8) 8) s8)
Stephen
PS I like the Moose
Cloth seat wearing
Yeah had driver one replaced !!!
that bloody sstiching where the belts rubs ! DOH!
its warn again, but got the needle and thread out this time, which did the trick...
Sorry guys I moved this thread to General becuase I thought you were only talking about sending a petition to Toyota, seems you've moved on to maintenance problems.
It might be worth starting a new thread as this one is all over the shop, more in -line with the insurance details post. However how relevant is it to put every single problem down? All cars suffer from problems, and I think the only prominent problems are maybe the soft top glass, the alloys and the pre-cats obviously. You can see prevalent problems by merely looking at previous posts without starting a new poll.
As has been mentioned the response to the pre-cat thread was small, and whilst we know there is a problem A petition with a few names on won't carry much weight,out of the total production volume. Last time i checked only 4 people had posted in that thread, 4 people out of 895 users is not really significant, and you also have to consider that people tend to post negative aspects as opposed to "my cars fine".
I think you'd have to be clear about what your objectives were with a petition..to get a recall? Thats unlikely to happen with such a small sample IMO..I'm with you that the precats should never be an issue with a car such as this and the standard of service I've had in the past is appaling.
Anyways those are my thoughts!
My '01 was purchased new and I live in the Southern US. With 21.5 K miles on the odometer, the only problem I've experienced to date has been an engine-lid latch that my dealer replaced free of charge.
I recently removed the pre-cats for my own peace of mind, albeit a visual inspection of the cats and the 02 sensors indicated that all was well. The alloy wheels continue to look brand new, but I polish them almost daily. No visible corrosion or rusting of the brake rotors, no problems with paint, no problems with the top. The leather interior isn't fading - but I look after it and keep the car garaged when not in use.
Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, I know that I'm having a good owner's experience - but I'll also say that owning a sportscar does place a maintenance burden on the user that goes well beyond what most other drivers have to deal with.
Quote from: "southerneditor"My '01 was purchased new and I live in the Southern US. With 21.5 K miles on the odometer, the only problem I've experienced to date has been an engine-lid latch that my dealer replaced free of charge.
I recently removed the pre-cats for my own peace of mind, albeit a visual inspection of the cats and the 02 sensors indicated that all was well. The alloy wheels continue to look brand new, but I polish them almost daily. No visible corrosion or rusting of the brake rotors, no problems with paint, no problems with the top. The leather interior isn't fading - but I look after it and keep the car garaged when not in use.
Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, I know that I'm having a good owner's experience - but I'll also say that owning a sportscar does place a maintenance burden on the user that goes well beyond what most other drivers have to deal with.
I remembered something I read on SC - if you dont have an problem, DONT POST ABOUT IT :-) :-) :-)
seriously, dont expect Toyota doing anything about it, other what it has already done in past...
Please note the following in relation to this thread:
Any problems individuals have with their cars should be taken up with their respective dealer. The club will not get involved or put its name to a petition to Toyota. It is not believed that this will be of any benefit to either individuals or the club in the eyes of Toyota. We know that they read on this website in anycase hopefully that they take the views expressed by you on this thread into consideration. The name of the club is not to be used in any correspondence to Toyota GB or respective dealers.
Thankyou
Quote from: "Liz"Please note the following in relation to this thread:
Any problems individuals have with their cars should be taken up with their respective dealer. The club will not get involved or put its name to a petition to Toyota. It is not believed that this will be of any benefit to either individuals or the club in the eyes of Toyota. We know that they read on this website in anycase hopefully that they take the views expressed by you on this thread into consideration. The name of the club is not to be used in any correspondence to Toyota GB or respective dealers.
Thankyou
I wasn't suggesting us using the club name.
I love the 'hopefully' s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Companies wont do anything to improve their product until customers complain in an organised way. I find it amazing that people can spend this much on a car and just put up with the problems. Toyota have had 4 years to do something about the MR-2 problems and they have ignored them because it is easier to do so and pay off individuals.
It's too late for us: The MR-2 isn't going to be changed in any way in its production run and I'll have to tell the people who buy my car off me that there is a chance the engine will explode some time in the future.
But maybe we can help the next generation of purchasers - which will include us of course!
Regards
Stephen
The problem of corroding wheels and brake hubs are not limited to MR2s. My two year old RAV4 is also suffering from corroded wheels and hubs and although the dealer is happy to replace the faulty parts, if the fault hasn't been corrected then the fault will continue, I have noticed this problem on LandCruisers and Yarisis too. I can't comment on the precat issue as the engine is a Diesel
Quote from: "StephenBennett"Companies wont do anything to improve their product until customers complain in an organized way.
You mean like we did over here years ago with the Chevy Corvair. By the end of its run, all the problems had been corrected - corrected in the new cars, which didn't really help the current owners.
Quote from: "StephenBennett"But maybe we can help the next generation of purchasers - which will include us of course!
Yeah, we helped the next generation by ensuring they couldn't buy a Corvair because it had been discontinued.
Hey, wait a minute, the MR2 is being discontinued. Maybe we already won?
The "big three" US auto makers lost huge market share to the Japanese back in the '70s and it wasn't through anything organized. We wanted quality and found manufactures who could deliver. Detroit initially countered with government regulation and tariffs and found out that it didn't work because we were still willing to pay for what we wanted. Their only alternative was to actually work on the quality of their product.
If you are really dissatisfied with Toyota, then hit them where it hurts - don't buy another Toyota.
Just don't expect any help from me - I love my car (of course I may change my mind if my engine blows up).