Stupid question maybe but how does a piggyback ECU distinguish between open and closed loop?
Will any adjustments made by the piggyback apply regardless of temperature, throttle, etc?
I did some research into this with the emanage. With our stock ecu's they don't work very well. The stock ecu will in a short time cancel out any changes you make to the emanage. I've made a small box for mine that puts the ecu in open loop when under boost which stops the ecu cancelling out my adjustments. Have a search of my posts.
Quote from: "Davegtst"I did some research into this with the emanage. With our stock ecu's they don't work very well. The stock ecu will in a short time cancel out any changes you make to the emanage. I've made a small box for mine that puts the ecu in open loop when under boost which stops the ecu cancelling out my adjustments. Have a search of my posts.
Nice! Really? Not sure how as the emanage will "lie" both ways.
300 quid well spent then....
Having said that, I'm assuming it depends how big of an adjustment you make. The ECU won't be able to compensate for the changes necessary for bigger injectors or stage1 cams.
There's definitely a noticeable increase in power as it stands though
I believe even if you make a small adjustments the stock ecu will try and revert back to its original settings. It feels great for a while but over time it will cancel it out. By fooling the ecu into open loop (feeding it a wide open throttle signal when it isn't) it won't try to re learn.
As mine is a turbo I fool the ecu into open loop when it reaches 0.5 psi boost and above. Under 0.5 psi it runs as stock.
Wouldn't it then just be a case of resetting the ECU every once in a while?
I still struggle to understand how the ECU compensates,as the ECU never gets the actual values back
The ecu constantly takes readings from the o2 sensors and adjusts the fueling. Say you richen the mixture via the emanage the stock ecu will lean it back off again to get it back to how it should originally be.
But my point is, doesn't the emanage manipulate the o2 sensor voltage to make the ecu think it shouldn't lean it out or enrichen
Nope the emanage blue doesn't have an 02 input. Not as standard it doesn't. It intercepts the injector signals from the ecu and either lengthens or shortens the pulse. You would need an emanage ultimate for O2 input. It can be done with the blue but you need the latest 1.49 firmware and a fair bit of research.
You can off course re set the ecu every day but the stock ecu will be cancelling out your adjustments every time you use the car.
I might be kidding myself to make me feel better for what this costs me, but surely there's a purpose to the emanage blue?
Why would anybody spend >350 quid getting a professional outfit to map their em-b when it is utterly wasted after a decent drive across all loads/revs?
Edit: bearing in mind my stock map does not know about the removed pre-cats and TTE exhaust. And it will especially not know what to do with crower cams and my potential future experimentation with bigger injectors.
It won't compensate for the lack of pre cats as i assume you still have the main cat that is working properly. If you removed the main cat as well without fooling the ecu into thinking that it was still there you would at the very least bring on the warning light.
Our stock ecu's seem to be extremely fussy about keeping the emissions within factory limits. Not all ecu's (especially older cars) are the same and they won't relearn as ours do. I'm afraid it makes the emb on our cars a bit pointless without tricking the ecu so it doesn't re learn.
You can fool the ecu into not seeing the o2 sensor after say 4k revs. That way anything over 4k you would be using the emb settings.
I think what happens is that the stock ECU will only compensate for any changes that are made while the standard ECU is in closed loop. Closed loop only applies under relatively low load situations eg part throttle and relatively low revs, when you don't really want maximum power anyway because you are just pootling around. Once you use full throttle and or lots of revs the ECU goes into open loop and the emanage then comes into play exactly when you want it.
The moral of the story is to find a mapper who knows exactly when the stock ECU goes into open loop and only makes any adjustments beyond that point, otherwise you are paying for time spent mapping at low load and you won't get any benefits in the low load scenario because the standard ECU will offset the changes.
It true it will only compensate in closed loop. Our cats are in closed loop a lot more that you realise though. Easiest way to check is get a Bluetooth obd reader and the torque app.
Absolutely, I imagine mine is in closed loop for 99% of the time I drive it as I only use it on the road, the point is that the only time you want the benefit of the Emanage tuning is for the time when you are able to use full throttle or rev past maybe 4000 rpm, but that is exactly when it does kick in, so no problem.
I can definitely live with that. The gains I've seen are definitely in the 4000k+ region. Im going to fashion a cable and read the map off, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly the case
You need to find all points on the map where any trim is being applied. I don't think the base map will show you where open loop kicks in, but if you can see trims being applied to the base map I think that point must be in closed loop.....
unless the stock ECU can apply trims to the entire map based on its closed loop data, which I am not sure about.
Can anyone confirm this? This also brings me on to another point below;
Rarding my mapping comment above, one thing I should say is, I am not sure whether the ECU can apply a trim across the entire base map (affecting both closed and open loop settings), based only on what it sees in closed loop. If it can, this could indeed make the Emanage entirely useless if it is wrongly set up, (so it would be more than just wasted mapping time in closed loop as I suggested), but I have never seen anything to confirm or deny this. Either way, best to go to someone who knows 1zzs.
from what i understand the stock ecu does indeed apply fuel trims to the open loop areas of the map based on the trims in the closed loop map areas. this is where the emanage ultimate is superior for much larger than stock injectors as the EMU drives them direct when in open loop
Wife just drove it for the first time today with the emanage and I got a text saying that the car felt a lot quicker and whether this was because of "my tinkering".
So it's obviously working. ANd she didn't take it over 4000k... riddle me that. IT's been out for quite a few full throttle drives so far.
THe car is much more lively and fun
I'm does seem that the stock ecu compensates on open as well as closed loop. It seems to take a lot longer for the trims to take effect though. I reset my ecu probably every 6 weeks because of this. I did a little check on the way home tonight. You can easily be in closed loop above 5k revs. I think it's above 80 % throttle that it will change to into open loop but there may be other parameters too.
Wow I didn't know the Emanage drove the injectors directly. Presumably it would do that for any injector including the standard ones. Is that just the Emanage Ultimate from the Emanage range? Ie not the Emanage Blue?
Shnazzle I think everyone agrees that the entire map (open and closed loop) can be tuned, hence your results. The question is, how long will it be before the stock ECU wipes out the changes, if at all? If it does, it's likely to be a matter of weeks rather than days or hours because the ECU looks over the long term for changes which it believes need to be adjusted for so it monitors things over an extended period before applying any changes.
Davegtst, that's very useful information.
Do people think therefore that if a mapper only makes any changes to the map at 80% throttle and above (ie where it seems to definitely be in open loop) that the stock ECU could not then overwrite the new map because no changes would ever be seen by the stock ECU?
Alternatively you use the vtec wire to trick the Emanage into open loop earlier for more options, like some clever person on here did, was that you Dave, I can't remember who reported that?
Quote from: "lamcote"Shnazzle I think everyone agrees that the map can be tuned, hence your results. The question is, how long will it be before the stock ECU wipes out the changes, if at all.
Having spoken to Dave, he's had it on for 3 years with this custom tune by Noble and it's always performed the same. I'm sure he has reset the ECU once or twice in the meantime, but not on a regular basis at all.
He's now driving around stock obviously and says the car feels like crap hahaha s:D :D s:D Too slow.
SOooo... my original query still stands and it seems that we don't really know how the eManage handles the closed/open look situations.
Theory suggests the ECU will adjust itself to whatever values it's reading from the o2 sensors post-eManage changes, on closed loop. But real life suggests the eManage still takes whatever the ECU calculates and modifies the value regardless of whether it's in closed or open loop.
I'm not sure about that summary, it suggests the sequence is:
1. ECU calculates a value 2. Emanage modifies the value 3.engine uses what it's given 4. End of story
If this was right the Emanage would have the last say, but
In fact it is
1. ECU provides a base value 2. Emanage modifies that value 3. Engine uses what it's given 4. ECU evaluates the exhaust (closed loop) and may then modify the base value that it next supplies in step 1.
Thus the stock ECU actually gets the last say and that is the problem. If the Emanage is adding 10% fueling to the standard value, eventually the stock ECU will stop supplying the standard value and start supplying 10% less fuel so the 10% extra that the Emanage adds just brings the fuel back to the original standard AFR.
Further negative evidence is that if a mapper makes changes to the AFR in closed loop where the MOT test is applied, the car would inevitably fail it's MOT because the AFR MUST be at the standard stoichiometric value to pass, so any car that passes an MOT must be running stock settings under the MOT test conditions. If the mapper changed these, the ECU has most definitely overwritten them if you pass.
It does make sense. I would think that the eManage would (in closed loop) still intervene but when the ECU tries to get o2 feedback, the eManage manhandles that signal as well first. But...how would it know how much to mandhandle it based on the inputs. If you could predict o2 levels you'd be a genius.
All very odd. I'm assuming people like Noble just don;t touch any areas that are in closed loop
That's the conclusion I reached too.
I used the vtec output on the emb to switch a micro relay which in turn gives a false 80% throttle signal to the stock ecu instead of the real throttle input. This fools the ecu into open loop. I have programed the vtec output to go live at 0.5 psi as mine is turbo but you could easily change it so it goes live at say 4k revs.
Quote from: "Davegtst"I used the vtec output on the emb to switch a micro relay which in turn gives a false 80% throttle signal to the stock ecu instead of the real throttle input. This fools the ecu into open loop. I have programed the vtec output to go live at 0.5 psi as mine is turbo but you could easily change it so it goes live at say 4k revs.
I've seen that trick as well. It might very well be that mine is set up like this already. I have no idea what kind of trickery Noble unleashed on this thing.
Hence I'm quite keen to get a cable made and get the map off to see what's been done. See the lay of the land.
My original post.
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=54259
Good read that. Thanks! Now the question is... What about NA cars? Need a trigger to put it into open loop
Would it make sense to use the VTEC map to switch to ON (12v?) at say 4000rpm and at least 70% throttle, send that signal to a relay which then forces the voltage reducer to put out 3.93v (or whatever my WOT voltage is) to the TPS input for the stock ECU? And if VTEC is OFF, then the relay uses the actual TPS input?
I haven't tried it but have a read up on O2 input for the emb. You will need to update to the latest 1.49 firmware first. Apparently you can use the boost input to self tune to your own specs. I can't really do it because I need the boost input but for an na it may be ideal.
Ah yes by using a wideband o2,which is definitely something I'm looking at doing long-term. I'm not sure I want it to always strive for a stoichiometric state. I'd definitely want to be running around 13.5-13.8 on load and potentially a bit lower fueling on cruise
Don't forget the MOT, if you aren't at stoichiometric for the MOT you will fail on emissions. That's the reason closed loop exists. Also if you are mainly running richer than stoichiometric I think it will kill the cat.
Yes indeed. This is all so much easier when there's boost involved I have to say. Tuning for NA is a pain in the hoop s:) :) s:)
I'm still confused about the actual capability differences between the EM-B and EM-U.
With the latest firmware updates etc, can you or can you not mess with timing on the EM-B?
You can change the ignition timing but I'm pretty sure you can only advance it. You will need the extra ignition wiring harness for the ignition though.
Can you advance it by just less that 360 degrees to program retard?
You can retard the timing also, I can't remember exactly but I've got mine retried by around half a degree per lb of boost, I think.
Emb has 3 maps
Air
Fuel
timing
You can add fuel ( even with stock injectors by tricking the stock ecu into thinking they are smaller than what they actually are) but you can not reduce fueling, you have to use the air map to reduce fueling if you needed to by tricking the ecu into thinking there is less air passing by the maf.
Dave's vtec mod makes all the difference... I was resetting my ecu every couple days until I did the mod (stock ecu kept leaning out the mixture, not good under boost)
I've wondered does the emanage affect idle? Anybody know? Im running a bit rich at idle, I removed my cat and it's since that I think. Just trying to figure out what's changed.
Quote from: "maybeturbo"I've wondered does the emanage affect idle? Anybody know? I'm running a bit rich at idle, I removed my cat and it's since that I think. Just trying to figure out what's changed.
Have you removed the main cat? Or just pre-cats?
The main cat. Removed and welded a pipe in place whilst it was all apart. It will find its way to 14.7 -1 ish if it's left sitting to idle for ten or twenty seconds.
It also stumbles a little at 1500-1700 rpm. I'm not sure if it's a sensor or if the maps not great at that point (would the emanage map have an effect at that low an rpm? I'd imagine it does as it will generate positive boost at about 1300rpm) Fuels at a solid 11-1 ish under boost. Just has a spot at that point, it feels as though the fueling as it begins to generate boost isn't spot on. I'm just trying to make it perfect. Had a lot of things needed sorting when I bought it from a member on here.
MOT issues aside; yes, you will need to map the car to the (big) exhaust change you've done. The cat is by far the most restrictive part of the exhaust, so you've removed a lot of back pressure.
Also, the o2 readings will be through the roof of course. I'm surprised it hasn't thrown a code for your cat. If it senses o2 levels are the same on both ends of the sensor then it should conclude that the cat is knacked and throw a code.
I'm not sure if the car uses the o2 readings from the post-cat sensor in closed loop.
What kind of fuel management are you running now on your turbo?
Especially on a turbo I'd say a remap is required.
Yeah, I knew it would need a remap and it may explain the rich idle, but the 1500 rpm stumble was there before I removed the cat. It's actually much less noticeable now.
It was throwing cat codes before I removed it. The cat was knackered, that's why I cut it out tbh. It's only throwing rich codes now. But it fuels as you'd expect under any throttle conditions. I just want to make sure everything is spot on before I pay out for a remap.
It's fuel and spark is controlled by a greddy emanage. Any recommendations for a remap? I'm in Surrey. This is Rogers car originally I believe.
It's running a standard post cat sensor setup and the precat sensors are linked together.
Redline in Essex know mr2 turbos well not sure if they do emanage. They did all the SP turbo kits on unichip.
2 bar tunning are always highly recommended but I don't think they do piggybacks.
Austec in Crawley I think Josh took the car there once.
Abbey motorsport in Oxted again not sure if they do emanage. Do some good stuff for the gt86 and Nissan in general.
That's all off the top of my head.
Having driven it around for a while now I can conclude 2 things that back up everything said here:
1) The ECU does indeed compensate for the values the piggyback produces in closed loop. The car drives as it did stock now, in closed loop.
2) Open loop seems to start spot on at 4000 rpm. Either that, or it starts earlier and the eManage is mapped to increase power at 4000.
At 4000rpm, you'd swear the car had VTEC. It kicks in yo!! It's most enjoyable indeed and the rpm needle goes from 4k to 7k very quickly indeed.
As an example, I came onto the A189 in 4th at about 45. To get in before a big lorry, I put it into 3rd and put my foot down.... wheel spin...actual wheel spin at about 50mph...couldn't believe it.
Granted my rear tyres are barely legal (don't get excited Scotte).
I can see how this is going to be great fun on track (next summer!) or blast around the countryside.
So, I still need to pull the map and see what they've done. If there's nothing in the closed loop areas (changes I felt could have just been because the ECU was reset), then there's no point doing any mods using the tweak described via VTEC.
Frankly, I quite like it like this. Stock and fuel-efficient normally, but then unleash the beast at 4k.
Very useful feedback. Sounds like you have got a nice setup there. It seems an increase to 155bhp makes a big difference compared to the standard power? Will you be tempted to go for more?
Quote from: "lamcote"Very useful feedback. Sounds like you have got a nice setup there. It seems an increase to 155bhp makes a big difference compared to the standard power? Will you be tempted to go for more?
I definitely want to get some stage1 cams in there and possibly play with larger injectors if I can get the airflow right. I don't really know what the duty cycles are like on stock injectors, so bigger injectors may be totally unnecessary.
But that's not anytime soon. The cams will go in when I do an engine overhaul, and as I have yet to hit 70k...could be a while.
My guesstimate is that the standard injectors could manage up to about 170bhp, although I have no direct experience of this so others might contradict this.
Quote from: "lamcote"My guesstimate is that the standard injectors could manage up to about 170bhp, although I have no direct experience of this so others might contradict this.
Hmm...may run out of cycle then when the cams go in, throttle body polished, ports done etc.
Did the TTE turbo kit run stock injectors? If so, they will be fine.
Stock injectors are really maxing at about 185bhp but might push a couple more if you lucky
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Stock injectors are really maxing at about 185bhp but might push a couple more if you lucky
Oh ok. Well I severely doubt I'll ever see anytbhing like 185hp on NA so methinks the injectors should be fine.
No point getting bigger injectors if they're just going to be twiddling their thumbs
can't put up a vid for reasons known only to me, but here's the sound extract s:D :D s:D
m https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1X5pQ ... sp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1X5pQtlfc4qa3kzbXZmbnpvenc/view?usp=sharing) m
If you turn it up pay attention you can hear the map "kick in" at 15/16 seconds.
Quote from: "rbuckingham"Stock injectors are really maxing at about 185bhp but might push a couple more if you lucky
Thinking about it, that applied to engine under boost, so going to be comfortable for all but the most extreme NA 1zz-fe.
i am interested in doing this, do you have a circuit diagram and parts list?
forget that, seems the emanage ultimate can do this directly by putting the TPS signal through an analog input / output
found this thread
m http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=292366 (http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=292366) m
"What I do is take the tps signal from the sensor and run it into the analog input on the ultimate. Then take a wire from the analog output of the ultimate and run it to the ECM TPS input."
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/evilthorne/Matrix/analogTPS.jpg)
Thought I'd post this in a slightly more relevant forum;
Does anybody know if when I do a "Main Unit Update" (the only option currently showing), it overwrites the map I have on there?
I'd love to pull the map off BEFORE I do any updates...
Or do I have to install an older version of the eManage support tool, then try to connect, get the map and then upgrade to 1.49?
Main unit upgrade does not interfere with maps ... they are held in nvram separate to the os.
You can always back up the map to your laptop and then do a compare after the upgrade .... pushing it back on if you feel it's necesary
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Main unit upgrade does not interfere with maps ... they are held in nvram separate to the os.
You can always back up the map to your laptop and then do a compare after the upgrade .... pushing it back on if you feel it's necesary
Hmm..I suspect then that either my cable is not working or there's a version issue because the only option I have is "Main unit upgrade". So I can't get the map off.
I think I just need to order a cable from Giff-Tech and try that
Giff-Tech cable works a treat.
Jvanzyl this is the thread. s:) :) s:)
Cheers Patrick!
And you seem to have done it AGAIN with convincing me to spend money!... .arrgh... :-) :-) :-) Hopefully Lee can suggest a way of keeping it in open loop based on the throttle position as you said..
Good news! Lee is going to use set the throttle position on the emanage to 75% (using the Vtec input) to force open loop :-) :-) :-) (apologies if I have all the words in the wrong order there... I literally have no idea what I'm talking about).
So it'll be interesting to see how it works out..
Quote from: "jvanzyl"Good news! Lee is going to use set the throttle position on the emanage to 75% (using the Vtec input) to force open loop :-) :-) :-) (apologies if I have all the words in the wrong order there... I literally have no idea what I'm talking about).
So it'll be interesting to see how it works out..
It's interesting indeed. Personally I would use a switch to mimic boost input.
I'd like to think that you could basically force the car into open loop when you want to, basically almost standalone. Then flick the switch when you need the ecu to play nice with the o2 sensors for MOT.
Alternatively, and a bit more complicated, can you not just leave it as-is and instead of using the MAP sensor, use a feed to mimic the voltage sent by the MAP sensor for 0.5psi boost (that's what Lee's is set to right?). So, tricking the emanage into thinking there is boost. But keeping the boost map zero'd
err... hang on. So do you reckon that by having the emanage come on at 75% throttle it'd fail an MOT? I'm not sure what actually happens during an MOT but do they push the throttle past 75% ever?
If so - then yeah I'd totally agree that this could cause a problem..
EDIT: I found this as the method of testing the emissions.. the question is, would the accelerator be pushed passed 75% to achieve 2500 RPM?
1. Raise the engine speed to around 2500 rpm or half the maximum engine speed if this is lower.
Hold this speed steady for 20 seconds to ensure that the inlet and exhaust system is properly purged. Allow the engine to return to idle and the emissions to stabilise.
a. assess the engine idle speed.
b. assess the smoke emitted from the tailpipe at idle,
c. rapidly increase the engine speed to around 2500rpm or half maximum . engine speed if this is lower and assess the smoke emitted from the tailpipe. Allow the engine to return to idle.
no sorry the two things are not connected s:) :) s:) They'd never use 75% throttle in MOT. That would make it go to like 7k rpm s:D :D s:D haha
OK - so my question is, is 75% throttle an everyday usable way of engaging the emanage? I'm assuming here that it would engage after 4krpm anyway.. and that this setup in theory it would have no issue with an MOT test?
Quote from: "jvanzyl"OK - so my question is, is 75% throttle an everyday usable way of engaging the emanage? I'm assuming here that it would engage after 4krpm anyway.. and that this setup in theory it would have no issue with an MOT test?
Well I don't know the ins/outs of the 75% theory. I think what Lee is trying to achieve is make it so that when you're trying to get a move-on but the car is still in closed loop (depends on rpm, temperature, throttle, etc etc), you can make sure it switches to open loop and follows your (more aggressive) map instead.
But when you're tootling around the car goes into closed loop as per normal parameters and runs for efficiency, as designed by Toyota.