Have noticed recently that under hard acceleration followed by a gear change, that the banana's rear end squirms a little. Has a similar feeling to a FWD torque steer issue. It is disconcerting to say the least.
My first thought is obviously tyre pressures. Went out tonight and double checked them. All spot on.
The only other noteworthy thing is that I had a new rear tyre a few weeks ago. The other rear has been on there for about 2 years (just under).
Geometry would be my next step. Then i was thinking perhaps the shocks might be getting tired. Currently running just over 100k and she is 15 years old.
Any more ideas folks?
Sounds like you've already pinned it to me!
That rear tyre I bound to feel different to tother 2yrs down the line.
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck.. !
Yep I'm thinking the same as above. Two different age tyres could certainly upset the rear end.
Tyre
Thanks for the replies all.
I'll look at getting the old tyre replaced. As a matter of course I usually get an axle changed. Last bill was a lot higher than expected!
I was curious to know if others has experienced this.
Yeah, the tyre would be my bet as well. You're getting more or different grip on one side than the other so it skits about a bit.
The torque steer on my Saab is uncontrollable to the point that you just have to back off or accelerate more gently.
I'm gonna have to go against the general consensus here and disagree with the tire theory.
I had the exact same symptoms you describe, hard acceleration and full throttle gear changes (particularly 3rd to 4th) the rear end would 'twitch' to one side, and as time went on the problem got worse to the point where it was scary. It was also pretty sketchy under hard braking.
The problem turned out to be a knackered bush in one of the rear hubs, as the rubber ages/wears you start to get a bit of play in the suspension joint, and this play results in the geometry changing suddenly when driving the car hard e.g. hard gear changes, braking etc. It felt like the car was rear wheel steering - not good!
My '2 is an '03 plate with a little over 60k on the clock, so I'd say your '01 with 100k is probably in need of some new rubbers. Get the car in the air and give the rear arms a good jiggle, you should soon find the offending bush/bushes.
Hope this helps. s:) :) s:)
The tyre is something that I wanted to do anyway, so that's getting done tomorrow hopefully.
I will get the geometry looked at too. Whilst it's down there I shall ask about bushes too.
Quote from: "hachiroku"I'm gonna have to go against the general consensus here and disagree with the tire theory.
I had the exact same symptoms you describe, hard acceleration and full throttle gear changes (particularly 3rd to 4th) the rear end would 'twitch' to one side, and as time went on the problem got worse to the point where it was scary. It was also pretty sketchy under hard braking.
The problem turned out to be a knackered bush in one of the rear hubs, as the rubber ages/wears you start to get a bit of play in the suspension joint, and this play results in the geometry changing suddenly when driving the car hard e.g. hard gear changes, braking etc. It felt like the car was rear wheel steering - not good!
My '2 is an '03 plate with a little over 60k on the clock, so I'd say your '01 with 100k is probably in need of some new rubbers. Get the car in the air and give the rear arms a good jiggle, you should soon find the offending bush/bushes.
Hope this helps. s:) :) s:)
This is very likely to be the cause, even an under torqued bolt in the rear suspension can cause this.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Quote from: "hachiroku"I'm gonna have to go against the general consensus here and disagree with the tire theory.
I had the exact same symptoms you describe, hard acceleration and full throttle gear changes (particularly 3rd to 4th) the rear end would 'twitch' to one side, and as time went on the problem got worse to the point where it was scary. It was also pretty sketchy under hard braking.
The problem turned out to be a knackered bush in one of the rear hubs, as the rubber ages/wears you start to get a bit of play in the suspension joint, and this play results in the geometry changing suddenly when driving the car hard e.g. hard gear changes, braking etc. It felt like the car was rear wheel steering - not good!
My '2 is an '03 plate with a little over 60k on the clock, so I'd say your '01 with 100k is probably in need of some new rubbers. Get the car in the air and give the rear arms a good jiggle, you should soon find the offending bush/bushes.
Hope this helps. s:) :) s:)
This is very likely to be the cause, even an under torqued bolt in the rear suspension can cause this.
I had been starting to think that this sounds like my car and having had the rear subframe removed recently, maybe this is the reason.
She had a new rear subframe in (looks up) July '13, without any issues. Since then the only time I can think of anything else being touched was when Nige helped me swap out the clutch. Even then it was only on the near side and that was done October '14.
Would you have to touch the suspension bits to drop the fuel tank out to fit new cables?
No suspension work required to change cables.
Patrick did mine but i was under the car the whole time with him.
Quite romantic really. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
That is quite the small waiting room he has. s;-) ;-) s;-)
I like patrick he lets you get involved.
You need to do this one step at a time so the tyre is an easy first option.
I always used a breaker bar on the suspension joints and bushes (good call on that), it's easy to see if there is an issue.
The shocks are more difficult unless there are obvious signs of a leak (this usually shows as a mist of oil on the outside).
The bounce test is difficult because the suspension is very firm to start with.
Worth a visual check to see whether a spring has broken.
I'd check those sorts of things before splashing out on stuff like geo.
My money is still on the tyre.
Your mechanic should cover those sorts of things though.
Quote from: "ChrisGB"This is very likely to be the cause, even an under torqued bolt in the rear suspension can cause this.
+1
Just back from the tyre place. Got myself a new Toyo on the nearside rear. They had a good look around the suspension and nothing was obviously amiss.
So whilst they were on, I got them to double check the geometry. Results below...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/3dc7bdf10af2e212222188bca49586a4.jpg)
A little bit out, but nothing to write home about.
Next step is to see how the new tyre settles in over the next couple of weeks.
How is the new tyre getting on?
I just had a look at the tracking check and it looks like they have used the mk2 settings. Not sure how much they vary though?
I didn't think to check the values against those posted on here. Are they much different Simon?
New tyres seems to have helped with the torque steer issue. She has been a bit wibbly recently though. Not sure it is the high winds we have had over the last 4 weeks or the fact that the upper centre part of my windscreen trim keeps popping out. Whistles like a good un. s:-( :-( s:-(
Warranty work happening on Tuesday for that. So we'll see.
The general wibbliness seem to be at motorway speeds. She just feels twitchy in a straight line. Load up the suspension for a corner and all feels right again.
I have a FL aero lip to add when I finally get to Steve@D1.
You need to realign your rear subframe to get both cambers the same. Half the trouble with folk doing alignments these days with expensive equipment all they see is red and green. They also know scock cock scock all about adjusting things that the computer says you cannot adjust. To be honest we have a red and green man at work I love doing the work he has condemned. Last week he condemned a Fiat 500 for a rear axle all that was needed was to slacken the brackets on the body and put the axle in the correct place. Result for me saved me 3 hours work and saved the insurance company the price of the axle.
How much adjustment is there on the subframe itself to the body?
Mattperformance did my subframe installed originally and it was geo'd afterwards. Its only been this year that I have noticed issues.
Quote from: "StuC"I didn't think to check the values against those posted on here. Are they much different Simon?
Cant help you with the actual figures but just noticed the model no and year range on the printout so they have punched in the wrong car. If its not too far away I would think it best to pop back in to query with them? If you say you are still having problems, I hope a good garage would give it their A game on a 2nd attempt.
Maybe you could ask about the rear subframe re-align too?
Quote from: "Topdownman"Quote from: "StuC"I didn't think to check the values against those posted on here. Are they much different Simon?
Cant help you with the actual figures but just noticed the model no and year range on the printout so they have punched in the wrong car. If its not too far away I would think it best to pop back in to query with them? If you say you are still having problems, I hope a good garage would give it their A game on a 2nd attempt.
Maybe you could ask about the rear subframe re-align too?
Well spotted they have done the geo on the car but said the car was a mk2 mr2 now a w30 mk3. Pay peanuts get monkeys love it. When you get it redone get them to slacken off the rear subframe and move it over to equal the rear cambers
Good eyes Simon.
Thanks for the heads up Dave.
Does anyone have the figures for the correct set up? So when I get a print out I can compare and contrast.
I don't think anyone has asked the obvious question. Have the rear arms or bushes in the rear arms ever been changed? At 101k miles I would say the bushes are probably worn. This is the most likely culprit for giving you the symptoms you have. Just jack the car up and see if the rear wheels have any side to side movement. I had mismatched tyres on mine for a few months and it was no different to having a matching pair in terms of feeling skittish.
Check my tracking results below for re-assurance. I had it done 2 weeks ago.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160221/d9044c5b0b34c7e1e99f245971c48e42.jpg)
Looks like your camber is way out if the min is -1.50 and Max -0.20. It looks more correct before than it is now. As said above, get it re-done. Maybe get them to check for play in the bushes for your inconvenience!
Crazy you have something funky going on with your os wishbone either worn bushes or a slightly bent wishbone as the cater has one degree difference.
Quote from: "cabbydave"Crazy you have something funky going on with your os wishbone either worn bushes or a slightly bent wishbone as the cater has one degree difference.
Which bit are you referring to Dave. Front or back? I can't see it.
Ah you mean front Caster? Sorry I just got up lol!
Not sure what's going on there. How do you even adjust the Caster? I thought u can only do the camber on the front using the TREs.
I am planning to buy new front wishbones come payday.
There is a 1 degree difference between the casters.The caster is normally controlled by wishbones so if you have a worn rear bush it can alter the caster. On the cars with front subframes you can generally move the subframe about to get the casters equal. I am just going to put new bushes in my wishbones rather than replacing the whole things oe is always better than non gen
Quote from: "cabbydave"There is a 1 degree difference between the casters.The caster is normally controlled by wishbones so if you have a worn rear bush it can alter the caster. On the cars with front subframes you can generally move the subframe about to get the casters equal. I am just going to put new bushes in my wishbones rather than replacing the whole things oe is always better than non gen
For the price of the ebay ones I am just going to change both.
Polybushes will make the ride more harsh which I don't want.
The rear bushes are worn. I saw it when I changed the shocks over, not that it made a diff at MOT time s;) ;) s;)
Could it be something as simple as tyre pressures?
Quote from: "CrazySX"I don't think anyone has asked the obvious question. Have the rear arms or bushes in the rear arms ever been changed? At 101k miles I would say the bushes are probably worn. This is the most likely culprit for giving you the symptoms you have.
I asked this question when the thread was first posted, and I'm still convinced that this is the likely cause.
Quote from: "StuC"The general wibbliness seem to be at motorway speeds. She just feels twitchy in a straight line. Load up the suspension for a corner and all feels right again.
Again, mine was exactly the same, fine in the corners but sketchy at speed going in a straight line.
I would get all the bushes thoroughly checked out... preferably not by the people that put Mk2 geo settings on your Mk3! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Ok peeps, time for another update...
Last week I went up to Steve@d1's place and he confirmed that Banana was pulling to the left. Steve also went crowbar crazy on ALL of the suspension bushes. The only one that looked a little tired was the RH front wishbone rear bush, which looked like this...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/93986ad0a418daa9ba4520ae11364e8f.jpg)
So today, I have been back to the place that set up the geo to the mk2 s:roll: :roll: s:roll: and they have had another go. This time to the correct settings. I then took her up the road and the higher speed wibble is gone. Happy days, except the steering wheel is not level and she is still pulling to the left.
I head back over to them, they confirm that the rear toe had moved and they reset it. This gave the readouts below...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/78558da3ca6a0a01ed4b2edc452d7ad9.jpg)
Front and rear total toe's are pretty close to stock now. The rear offside camber they say "we do not have the equipment to adjust correctly".
The dude then comes out with me on a road test, where he acknowledges that it is still pulling to the left. He also noticed that between gear changes the front of the car dips slightly to the right. Same side as the slightly worn bush. Tyre pressure was also a little low on this side, even with the correct pressure this still happens.
Moving forward then. The dipping MAY be solved by a change of bushes at the front end. Which was previously suggested by a couple of you.
The front and rear camber look like they need some attention too. From what I believe the front cannot be adjusted, but the rear can. Although some coilovers will give me that ability or so I am led to understand?
Both of these options are starting to escalate in costs. Does this seem like a sensible route or have I missed something obvious?
Long post, thanks for sticking with it. s:-D :-D s:-D
Quote from: "StuC"Ok peeps, time for another update...
Last week I went up to Steve@d1's place and he confirmed that Banana was pulling to the left. Steve also went crowbar crazy on ALL of the suspension bushes. The only one that looked a little tired was the RH front wishbone rear bush, which looked like this...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/93986ad0a418daa9ba4520ae11364e8f.jpg)
So today, I have been back to the place that set up the geo to the mk2 s:roll: :roll: s:roll: and they have had another go. This time to the correct settings. I then took her up the road and the higher speed wibble is gone. Happy days, except the steering wheel is not level and she is still pulling to the left.
I head back over to them, they confirm that the rear toe had moved and they reset it. This gave the readouts below...
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/78558da3ca6a0a01ed4b2edc452d7ad9.jpg)
Front and rear total toe's are pretty close to stock now. The rear offside camber they say "we do not have the equipment to adjust correctly".
The dude then comes out with me on a road test, where he acknowledges that it is still pulling to the left. He also noticed that between gear changes the front of the car dips slightly to the right. Same side as the slightly worn bush. Tyre pressure was also a little low on this side, even with the correct pressure this still happens.
Moving forward then. The dipping MAY be solved by a change of bushes at the front end. Which was previously suggested by a couple of you.
The front and rear camber look like they need some attention too. From what I believe the front cannot be adjusted, but the rear can. Although some coilovers will give me that ability or so I am led to understand?
Both of these options are starting to escalate in costs. Does this seem like a sensible route or have I missed something obvious?
Long post, thanks for sticking with it. s:-D :-D s:-D
Costs won't be too high if u order a set of wishbones from the US. As at the end of this thread.
m https://tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http ... are_type=t (https://tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mr2roc.org%2FphpBB3%2Fviewtopic.php?t=57867&share_tid=57867&share_fid=15578&share_type=t) m
Poly bush?
Find it weird that they couldn't adjust your rear camber. It should be done using the camber bolts in the subframe. Unless they are siezed solid and they can't be asked.
Front camber can be adjusted using the Track rod ends.
Who told you coilovers were the answer?coilovers with allow you to adjust the ride height, and if they are good will allow for camber adjustment. But coilovers could make things worse if there is no adjustment at all at the bottom or your front wishbones are shot.
If you want the ability to adjust the geometry then you need to start looking at adjustable arms (rear) and good Track rod ends at the front.
Or just get the rear camber bolt un siezed and new wishbones on the front. And make sure your existing TREs are ok.
Fairly sure camber *ISNT* ajustable front or rear on these.. you're thinking of toe? if the camber is out, chassis is bent, arms are bent, bushes are gone etc... coil-overs would indeed allow you to then ajust the camber to put it back to within spec. as would a set of lobe bolts for the shock(maybe it has these already and they've slipped?), or a set of ajustble lower arms.(rear).
I think i'd get a proper look over it all first before spending out though, somethings not right.. you've even lost half a degree since your last tracking rear-right.... lowering will cause camber change.. snapped spring? hows the ride height left to right? get it on level ground and get a tape out s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "stupink"Fairly sure camber *ISNT* ajustable front or rear on these.. you're thinking of toe? if the camber is out, chassis is bent, arms are bent, bushes are gone etc... coil-overs would indeed allow you to then ajust the camber to put it back to within spec. as would a set of lobe bolts for the shock(maybe it has these already and they've slipped?), or a set of ajustble lower arms.(rear).
I think i'd get a proper look over it all first before spending out though, somethings not right.. you've even lost half a degree since your last tracking rear-right.... lowering will cause camber change.. snapped spring? hows the ride height left to right? get it on level ground and get a tape out s:) :) s:)
You're right it's toe. But u can get camber adjust bolts right?
yup, if you get lobe bolts you can ajust the camber front and rear s:) :) s:) about £20-40 per axel... if all else checks out okay could be worth a look.. but I doubt the handlings that bad due to excess camber... something is afoot s:) :) s:)
Something sounds worn or bent
I tied up with SteveJ today too see his gorgeous new Elise s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Our attention turned to Banana and I brought up my left pull issue. After a short test drive we spent some time working through possibilities, when I say we I mean Steve. s;-) ;-) s;-)
I find it interesting that after some inspections Steve comes to the same conclusion (independently) that Dave did.
Quote from: "cabbydave"When you get it redone get them to slacken off the rear subframe and move it over to equal the rear cambers
Looking down the side of the car there is toe-in on the rear RH, but noticeably less on the LH. Which ties up nicely with Dave's comments about the subframe position needing to tweaked to bring the camber angles in line with each other. See last figures from below. Even though the total toe is ok, the camber differences can cause the issue I am experiencing.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160305/78558da3ca6a0a01ed4b2edc452d7ad9.jpg)
Long and short...
Dave if there is an alignment slot free for Ding Day, I'd really appreciate your "touch" to see if we can remedy this once an for all. s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
UPDATE from me on this issue.
My car is suffering the apparent torque steer problem when travelling at motorway speeds. It pulls to the left under acceleration and straightens up when ones foot is lifted off the pedal. The two rear tyres are both the correct size but they are different brands. I appreciate they should be same (all things being equal and all that) but plenty of people had stated that it was unlikely to be the problem, hence going to the main dealer for the checks.
So, I'm just back from the main dealer who took it for a spin, checked 4-wheel alignment, checked the whole rear end with a bar and questioned the tyres. He spent two hours checking my car and charged me just under £50 (inc. VAT) for 1/2 hour of labour.
He said he had a similar problem on another brand of far-eastern two-seater, RWD car and it turned out to be tyres and of course he suggested getting matched tyres on the rear. Just when I was about to leave he suggested a last check for the tyres. He went back into the workshop and checked the circumference of the rear tyres and came back stating that the rear off-side (drivers side) tyre was about 10mm (1cm) greater in circumference (around the tyre) and that he now believes that to be the problem with my car. I have just jacked the car up on the drive and using some wire (doesn't stretch) I checked it for myself and can confirm that his information was correct.
In summary, my off-side rear tyre is slightly bigger than the near-side rear tyre and it appears to be what is causing the car to be pulling to the left upon acceleration. As soon as funds allow, I 'll get the tyres sorted and report back.
PS Sorry if that was long-winded but some people like to read others experiences s:) :) s:)