Hi -
I joined back in December ( l viewtopic.php?f=75&t=57117 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=57117) l ) and the car's been under a cover mostly since then.
I've run it a few times over the last couple of months and it was pretty smokey, so when I took it for an MOT this morning, I wasn't surprised to fail on emissions.
I'm assuming it's stuck oil rings, so it's going to be engine out and a rebuild. (probably start in a month or so when I get my Datsun back together and out of the garage).
I've been searching around a bit for manuals & how tos...
I've found a couple that are helpful:
l viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45332&hilit=engine+removal&start=120 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45332&hilit=engine+removal&start=120) l
m http://midshiprunabout.org/mk3/2zz-engi ... -a-spyder/ (http://midshiprunabout.org/mk3/2zz-engine-coming-out-of-a-spyder/) m
Are there any more definitive ones out there?
Are there really no affordable books covering engine removal and rebuild?
I saw this - m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-MR2-Mk ... Swf-VWZ2Cz (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-MR2-Mk3-W30-Workshop-Repair-Service-User-Manual-/281934886214?hash=item41a4a0f546:g:JFsAAOSwf-VWZ2Cz) m anyone know if it's worth the money?
Only other thing I can find is this from the US: m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-Toyota-M ... SwzgRWu5fL (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-Toyota-MR-2-Shop-Service-Repair-Manual-Book-Engine-Drivetrain-OEM-/361208369805?hash=item5419b2528d:g:koEAAOSwzgRWu5fL) m nearly £200!
Thanks for any pointers!
Please excuse the dumb question... what colour is the smoke? Stuck oil rings usually don't show up on the MOT...
Thanks for the reply - smoke us white with a yellowy tinge, and smells of oil.
What else could it be? Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions.....
Quote from: "jonbill"Thanks for the reply - smoke us white with a yellowy tinge, and smells of oil.
What else could it be? Perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions.....
Head gasket. Oil smoke is blue. Fuel smoke is black. Water is white,,,,
Can be done in car!
I'd run a compression check before starting work.
Just checked - you're in Northants. So am I. Perhaps I can assist?
That would be unlucky its rare on the 1zz as far as i am aware.
Not known it in the 2 years ivde been a member.
If you do decide to rebuild your engine I will pm the fluid's name for cleaning the carbon out of the piston grooves. Don't forget you will have to hone the bores
Ah HG would be preferable to piston rings! It just made sense to me that oil coming past the rings would be an emissions failure.
How does hg failure lead to emissions probs?
Anyway, I'll check the compression and report back - all help gratefully received.
Just driving it to and from the MOT with the roof down was quite addictive.
Quote from: "jonbill"Ah HG would be preferable to piston rings! It just made sense to me that oil coming past the rings would be an emissions failure.
How does hg failure lead to emissions probs?
Anyway, I'll check the compression and report back - all help gratefully received.
Just driving it to and from the MOT with the roof down was quite addictive.
Lot's of oil burners make it through the MOT. Mine did. Head gasket failure - water in the cylinder (pus possibly oil from the oil way), lousy combustion, low compression, Emissions fail.
Has it been overheated?
I'm only guessing in an educated way.. The compression check should show a leak between two cylinders if it's a head gasket.
Makes sense. Don't know if it's been overheated. Guy I got it from reported intermittent misfire but said otherwise good. (It's not misfired for me though and temp sits solidly at 12 o clock).
I'll be back....
Quote from: "jonbill"Ah HG would be preferable to piston rings! It just made sense to me that oil coming past the rings would be an emissions failure.
How does hg failure lead to emissions probs?
Anyway, I'll check the compression and report back - all help gratefully received.
Just driving it to and from the MOT with the roof down was quite addictive.
By the time you've got the head off, you're only 45 mins from getting the pistons out. Engine still in the car.
Be interesting to hear what the issue is, but, as Scott has said, HG failure is reported very rarely on the 1zz in the Roadster. I can only remember 1 suspected instance of it being reported on here in 12 years, and that car had an issue with many things, the HG was not conclusively proven on that one if I remember correctly.
Thought I posted this one earlier , but there's a 1zz video on a corolla which is pretty much the same , but back to front.
m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A595LR4SQpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A595LR4SQpI) m
not sure the mr2 will be fun without ramps and personally would remove the engine to do anything more than a belt or gasket on it.
Thanks everyone. I'll report back in a few weeks when I get some room in the garage.
I have 2 threads on here, one I rebuilt my engine with a deglaze +new rings (not hone as mine wasn't burning oil and cylinders were ok):
http://mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=49521&p=571639&sid=b255aa6693a391915a9ee9e9e9343e50&sid=b255aa6693a391915a9ee9e9e9343e50#p571117
and this one on replacing the head gasket:
http://mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=50245&p=636048&hilit=replace+head&sid=b255aa6693a391915a9ee9e9e9343e50&sid=b255aa6693a391915a9ee9e9e9343e50#p578203
I live in Raunds, northamptonshire if you need a compression tester I have one if you want to do a quick check sometime and need a hand.
Thanks - I hadn't found them, so I'll have a good read.
Looks like my educated guessing was probably incorrect. I'm working on a pre-facelift that's putting out whitish yellow clouds (copious ones). It is, in fact, loads of unburned fuel. It's at its worst when the engine is partially up to temperature. I haven't yet got to diagnosing the root cause. I'll post on this thread when I get there.
Thanks- that does indeed sound similar to mine. Fingers crossed it's something simple
so far ruled out:
Head gasket, MAF, Fuel over-pressure from pump, O2 sensors. Got a spare fuel rail and injectors, which I know are good, so I'll swap that lot next.
I have gone through the lot. Found nothing out of spec but it's still being very messy exhaust-wise What was the specific emissions failure? Was it an item on the emissions test or was it rejected because it was making so much smoke/steam?
At the moment I'm leaning towards a sodden water-logged muffler that needs a damn good long run to dry it out. This car had stood for quite a while before I got it and had not had a proper run for months. My Honda civic 1.6i would look like it had a blown head-gasket for a few days after it had been allowed to stand for a couple of months. Especially in winter.
I can get the actual values from the emissions test when I get back to Northampton on Thurs. It failed on more or less all the emissions tests - high CO, high HC and lambda.
My car certainly has been standing for months. Most of the time under a cover. But it has been very damp hasn't it!
perhaps I could try taking the silencer off and take indoors for a few days to dry out.
Temperature sensor?
Quote from: "jonbill"I can get the actual values from the emissions test when I get back to Northampton on Thurs. It failed on more or less all the emissions tests - high CO, high HC and lambda.
My car certainly has been standing for months. Most of the time under a cover. But it has been very damp hasn't it!
perhaps I could try taking the silencer off and take indoors for a few days to dry out.
No need to get the actual values. We may or may not have the same problem.... I'm going to drill a small hole in the bottom of the muffler and give it a chance to drain. I'm in Rushden. I could pop over, take a peek and we can compare. Perhaps we'll both learn something. Have you run a compression test?
Quote from: "ChrisGB"Temperature sensor?
Not in my case... but good thought.
Quote from: "Carolyn"No need to get the actual values. We may or may not have the same problem.... I'm going to drill a small hole in the bottom of the muffler and give it a chance to drain. I'm in Rushden. I could pop over, take a peek and we can compare. Perhaps we'll both learn something. Have you run a compression test?
Sounds good. I haven't done a compression test yet - I hope to do that on Friday. You'd be very welcome to come over and have a look. I'll be around most of Friday, Sat, Sun.
(edit: more than welcome, I'd actually be very grateful!)
Update on this:-
Carolyn came round on Friday with a compression tester & more.
Compression was good - 185 to 190 PSI so no HG problems. Carolyn said that's above OEM figure, so indicates some oil getting past the oil rings.
I went for a long drive to dry the exhaust packing. It was still smoking at the end of that, although when I rev it now there's a distinct blue tinge to the smoke.
It smokes strongly after overrun - which I think indicates valve guides/stem seals. Carolyn suggested PCV valve could also cause this, esp. since it doesn't smoke at cold start.
So.. I'm currently awaiting a new PCV valve and we'll see where that gets us.
Quote from: "jonbill"Update on this:-
Carolyn came round on Friday with a compression tester & more.
Compression was good - 185 to 190 PSI so no HG problems. Carolyn said that's above OEM figure, so indicates some oil getting past the oil rings.
I went for a long drive to dry the exhaust packing. It was still smoking at the end of that, although when I rev it now there's a distinct blue tinge to the smoke.
It smokes strongly after overrun - which I think indicates valve guides/stem seals. Carolyn suggested PCV valve could also cause this, esp. since it doesn't smoke at cold start.
So.. I'm currently awaiting a new PCV valve and we'll see where that gets us.
Excellent to see members helping out physically! Nice one.
Hope the PCV solves the issue, at least partially. Then deal with rings.
I'll be interested to see how it turns out. Though I suspect Jon just wants to tear into another engine anyway, 'cos he loves that stuff. He's got a great Datsun. (Proper car).
Thanks for all the help & advice Carolyn, much appreciated.
btw, are your tyres NS2 or NS2R? I bit the bullet and ordered 4x NS2s for the Datsun. £150 for 4 worth a punt (205/60/14).
Quote from: "jonbill"Thanks for all the help & advice Carolyn, much appreciated.
btw, are your tyres NS2 or NS2R? I bit the bullet and ordered 4x NS2s for the Datsun. £150 for 4 worth a punt (205/60/14).
NS 20. That's a good deal. You'll like them.
A little experiment. Disconnect the hose from the PCV valve. Start the engine. See how crap it runs. Has quite a large effect.
I tried disconnecting it with the engine running, and it dies very quickly. haven't tried starting it without the hose attached - I'd expect it wouldn't start....
Quick update: Neither a new PCV valve nor a couple of litres of Marvel Mystery Oil have stopped it smoking s:( :( s:( .
So... Rebuild it is.
I took a 1hr subscription to toyota-tech.eu this morning and had a look around, and it seems that all the necessary details are there.
All I need is the space in the garage then....
The zed should be out for japfest on 24th, so the mr2 finished by end of June?
hi everyone -
I've started work on removing the engine. I've taken the bumper & exhaust off, removed most of the gubbins around the engine, drained all fluids & disconnected the loom from the engine.
The cross member is very solid which is good news (in fact, it's all solid underneath).
I'm now contemplating getting the driveshafts out of the gearbox - can I just pop the driveshafts out without undoing any suspension, or isn't there enough clearance for that?
Thanks.
Hi Jon, Great to see you're getting started. My method is to disconnect the uprights and front links from the hubs and drop the engine and gearbox with the crossmember. You'll need some sort of dolley to drop it onto. But then, I've got a lift, which makes it all a bit easier.
Thanks Carolyn. That's what I'll do too then. I'm thinking I'll drop the engine on a rug, lift the car with the engine crane and roll the car forward. I think the crane has enough reach. We'll see!
Yay! Engine out (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160604/efcc2ba46b4947a749951dc29f3947e1.jpg)
Now for the fun stuff. I'd go for the eight-hole pistons from MAG.
Yep - got that kit in my watch list on ebay. I'm going to strip it down and measure the bores before ordering, just in case.... It was very smokey!
Indeed that is a good plan. Given the compression readings, I'll be surprised if the bores are far off. My vote (which is not of any great importance) is for valve seals as you surmised.
I'm getting ready to do the pistons on the one in my silver car. Got a rebuilt spare engine but I've got uses for that one and the one in the car has a lot of new gear- just using a bit of oil.
Keep me posted on what you find. Also, if you need the loan of any tools, just ask.
I got the pistons out today - perhaps not surprising the oil control rings were well and truly stuck down. You can see a lot of cack in the ring groove that was sticking it down.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/465b373a2dd6a8cb4f85769743db73d8.jpg)
As per the other current thread, the bores and bearings are in great shape with the honing marks still clear.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160610/f5f546ac60836f6cba9da2326dffc514.jpg)
So I may just give it a set of rings and big end bearings and put it back together.
I'll have to see how the prices come out in comparison with that MAG £300 piston & rebuild kit.
You can buy just the Mag pistons with rings.
m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-S ... SwFNZWzbQX (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-SET-TOYOTA-1ZZ-FE-FOR-COROLLA-AVENSIS-CELICA-1-8-LTR-PETROL-/190941759011?hash=item2c75040623:g:q7gAAOSwFNZWzbQX) m
If you're going to keep the old pistons, we can modify the oil holes on the mill here. I would, at least do that.
I'd still do the valve seals. You'll need a gasket set with new bolts...
m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310790776292? ... EBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310790776292?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) m
Generally speaking, stuck oil rings don't smoke - you do go though oil like crazy, but the smoke may well be your stem seals. Been through it - honest.
Another one who's been there. Valve stem seals all the way.
C'lyn: are these generic bolt and seal kits any good? I'd be inclined to go for Toyota's own overhaul kit - its not cheap (and excludes bolts) but its not horribly expensive either.
I'd worry about the quality and longevity of all that lot coming in at £55.
I've used two.
No problems so far. I do think some Toyota 'originals' are over-rated sometimes and definitely over-priced.. They buy these things in after all. They don't make bolts and they don't make gaskets. They do mark them up.
I've generally done well with pattern parts.
Look at how much stuff the Ebay supplier sells and 99.8% positive feedback.
In the end the choice is down to the individual.
The care taken in the rebuild is the important bit for me.
Thanks both - yes, I'll deffo be replacing the valve stem seals as a matter of course.
That bolt & gasket set are a bargain! I'll grab one of them!
Looking at the rings MAG have for sale, it seems 1st & 2nd rings are the same - is that right? I was sure 2nd was thicker when I was taking them apart. I'll have to go measure.
Re modifying the old pistons - sounds a good idea. Are you busy this weekend? :-) :-) :-)
1st and 2nd are different.
I'll have a word with David (royal high monarch of the machines).
I had an unused set of four-holed original pistons which are ringed up and modified... (ten holes!!!) but I've got uses for them.
I reckon doing an overlap on the existing holes and adding an extra on each side should do the trick.
We'll be home... just got to talk the old fart into doing it... you might want to consider some sort of bribery...
Give me a buzz in the morning.
Great, thanks. Will call in the AM.
Quote from: "spit"Another one who's been there. Valve stem seals all the way.
C'lyn: are these generic bolt and seal kits any good? I'd be inclined to go for Toyota's own overhaul kit - its not cheap (and excludes bolts) but its not horribly expensive either.
I'd worry about the quality and longevity of all that lot coming in at £55.
There are some parts that do need to come from Toyota, though. For instance, the crush rings between the cat and manifold, the VVTI hub and various other precision mechanical bits.
Evidence of oil burning! Some of the valves have a couple of mm of carbon it seems
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160619/77e2a455ecf0921903632b48b407b97c.jpg)
Bottom end re-assembled with new main & rod bearings, rings, seals and Carolyn modified pistons :thumbs
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160630/8d781db31f0c050fdcfe973da5975618.jpg)
Another thread hijack?. sorry.
I'm seeing different descriptions of head gaskets.
Carbon , carbon steel and multi layered steel.
All at budget prices so are they same thing with different sales spiel.?
Multi layer steel (MLS) is what I'd call it, but I suspect they're all the same thing.
Hi all, It's nearly all back together again, but there's a couple of bits I don't remember and don't have photos: are these right?
1) Two earths on left end of head:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/064ba29fc6a11128ec078cafb92da704.jpg)
2) this little bracket between inlet manifold and throttle body:
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/dfd474d88f5f421e2589d35ed291b104.jpg)
Please can you confirm if these are right or wrong?
Ta!
Look the same as mine s:) :) s:)
That thumb looks sore!
Looks good. Getting there now!
Thanks - that's reassuring. Thumb's not so bad in real life.
I think if I get a decent run at it, I should be able to have it in and running next weekend.
Top tip. Crank her over with the plugs out and get the oil round the engine before you fire her. But you probably know that.
I did know that, but I don't always do the things I know I should :-) :-) :-)
Does the fuel need priming?
No.
just before the initial startup a quick squirt of two stroke oil down the plug holes is a good idea as well
Thanks. Fingers cross that it works first time!
It will.
OK, another one I don't have a photo of.
Please does anyone know where this earth strap goes? It's the other end of the battery -ve terminal, so I guess it's the main earth.
It can reach quite a wide arc, from the bulkhead to the cross member... does it attach to the cross member?
thanks!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160731/5a2306bd177d51cd7ab09060a81aef9c.jpg)
No earth on the cross-member. I've got one that goes to the bulkhead rail above the back of the engine.
It might bolt to the top of the gearbox, but not 100% sure from the pic.
Thanks both -
Carolyn, I've got this earth attached on right above engine - is that the one you referred to, or is there another?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160731/6bf9aa6f29874bdd5d10e656675dd09d.jpg)
Loadswine - the gearbox is a good shout. It rings a bell and this bolt (hole) is in easy reach and doesn't seem to be doing anything else... looks right?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160731/7e09f1c876429e1f5fa34df164dc43cc.jpg)
I'm now backing the gearbox theory..... Can't have too many earths...
edit: Just had a poke about on my silver car. There is one on the top of the gearbox.
Ta. Ok think I'm ready to fire it up! Which fuse for the fuel pump, so I don't flood it getting oil pressure up? Is it efi1, efi2 or something else altogether?
Edit: must remember to put a variety of fluids in first!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160731/b671ddc79b80ec56506ec611dd68cf9b.jpg)
I do the priming with the spark plugs out. Get more rpm and really get the oil round the engine.
Ok....
And..... Drum roll......
It works! No more clouds of smoke.
One small problem to ponder - it idles at 1150 -1250 which isn't right. Used to drop to 700 I think when warm.
What are the contenders?
Iacv, air leak at inlet manifold?
But anyway, hooray, hooray!
The ecu can do that with the tick over, after the first fire up. Second time around it should settle down. It's part of the learning procedure.
RESULT. Well done.
Just like to say well done, bet you're well chuffed!
Thanks, yes, very pleased with it.
I've got to get the handbrake working next, and then off for an MOT and tax, insurance, drive it.
Can't wait!
Quote from: "jonbill"Thanks, yes, very pleased with it.
I've got to get the handbrake working next, and then off for an MOT and tax, insurance, drive it.
Can't wait!
Handbrake eh? That'll be another thread then.
b**ger. Failed MOT on emissions s:-( :-( s:-(
all good apart from CO, which was 400 and needed to be < 300.
So I've ordered a CAT and will try again next week. At least I get a free re-test.
Yes, a lot of oil went down that cat... I was wondering how it would get on. Have you treated it to a new air filter?
I don't think it's even got a cat - looks like it's been gutted by a previous owner - there's frankenstein welding around it's whole circumference.
I haven't changed the air filter - it doesn't look dirty, but can't hurt. I'll see what eBay has to offer!
My silver car was like that when I got it. Certified cat came from Cats2U. Passed no probs. Air filters can be got from the local auto parts shop. you pay a couple of quid more for type approval cert. some MOT testers are picky about that.
yeah - I've bought a type approved one from cats2u. should arrive in the next couple of days, so I'll fit it over the weekend and back for my free retest next monday.
I have an MOT! New cat and a post cat lambda sensor sorted it.
Brilliant. Bring it by and we'll go for a run out?
well done on the rebuild! I'm saving this thread for the point in the future if I ever need to do mine....
Thanks. It's a lovely in the sun with the roof down. I'll take it up to Salford tonight, see how it is on a run. yay!
Jon brought the car by this afternoon. Sounds sweet-as! (better than the one in my daily driver).
A couple of little fettles to do, but a real result.
Thanks Carolyn, looks smart with it's new cam cover plastic.
Trip up the M6 to Salford was uneventful although still a novelty with the roof down.
Good read Jonbill
I have a horrible feeling this is going to be me soon only without the skills.
Quote from: "ilovejapcrap"Good read Jonbill
I have a horrible feeling this is going to be me soon only without the skills.
If you've got the time, space, tools and willing, the skills come for free. It's quite a big job, but there are step by step guides and lots of good advice on here.
[emoji106]
Did you have head te skimmed ?
No, just cleaned it, lapped the valves and shuffled a few of the tappet caps around to optimise clearances
If you have a steel rule, clean up the surface and place the edge of the rule across the head in a variety of positions. Look for gaps. I bet it's dead straight. Use an abrasive pad to clean up all the mating surfaces to give them a slight key.