MR2 Roadster Owners Club

The Workshop => Maintenance, Problems & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 10:17

Title: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 10:17
My MR S has got soft motor mounts.  It's a pain when in stop-start traffic.  It feels like a bouncy clutch, but it's a new clutch and when we watch the engine with the car pulling away slowly, it's wobbling.

I checked into replacing the front and rear motor mounts and it's over £200 from MR T.  I could find used ones, but they're not likely to be much better as they will be just as old.  So we decided to try the old Mini solution, which is a head-steady.  We used 10 mm threaded rod and made the bracket for attaching to the head out of hefty aluminium angle.  The rubber bushes are Mini head steady bushes (readily available on the internet for very little money).  There's a pair of bushes at either end of the rod.  The other end of the rod goes though a hole drilled in the upper cross member (the one that has the roof-lid catch bolted to it.

There was a big improvement, but still some vibration when pulling away.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160507_095101.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160507_095101.jpg.html)

So I decided to find the worst engine mount and stiffen it up.  It turned out to be the one between the gearbox and rear subframe.  It was sagging and really soft.  I've injected it with PU adhesive sealant.  I used 'Tiger seal'.  I decided to just do one mount at a time as I didn't want to end up with harsh vibrations, as have been reported by those who have polybushed their mounts.  I had been warned by others on here that polybushing the lot was not a good idea.

So I filled the gaps between the rubber just on that one mount.  I jacked the engine slightly, just to centre the bolt in the bush (it was sagging the badly).  I then injected the sealant into the bush and left it like that for 24 hours to let everything cure (with the jack still in place).

It's like a different car. There's no annoying vibration and the gear change is silky smooth with no 'thump'.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160507_095141.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160507_095141.jpg.html)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae71/CarolynneK/20160507_094922.jpg) (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/CarolynneK/media/20160507_094922.jpg.html)

The mount in the picture is not the one I did, I just show it to show where to inject the Tiger Seal.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Ardent on May 7, 2016, 10:55
Nice one.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Jock on May 7, 2016, 12:47
+1   s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:  .
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Jay67 on May 7, 2016, 14:40
Carolyn what symptoms you were getting, mine's fine until everything's got nice and warm then pulling away in 1st there's an almighty shake from the engine, doesn't happen in 2nd so I assumed it was weak mounts and the extra torque in 1st causing it, I've since fitted poly inserts on front and rear mounts but it's still happening!
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 15:03
It felt like a mild clutch judder - nothing 'almighty'.

If you can get a mate to pull forward in first, with the engine cover open, then you can see what it's doing.  'Almighty' sounds like something has given up -have you checked the gearbox top-mount?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Jay67 on May 7, 2016, 15:13
All mounts changed, not with new though but I'd have thought there would be some difference, mine's more than a bit of clutch judder, really shakes, perfectly fine when cold, if I'm careful and feed the clutch in slowly it's fine, been doing it for ages now, not got worse but I can't find the cause, annoys the hell out of me!
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 15:19
You really need to see what the engine is doing.  If the engine is steady... sounds like a clutch issue.  It's hard to advise without driving it and also seeing what's happening.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Jay67 on May 7, 2016, 15:39
I was hoping it wasn't clutch related, did start 8 weeks after having a clutch fitted though, got advised by the person that fitted it that it wouldn't be a clutch issue and didn't offer to check it for me, ah well.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 15:46
Started after fitting a clutch... that's more than coincidence.  Take it back if it's a professional mechanic.  You can get a brand new pressure plate that doesn't behave.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: 1979scotte on May 7, 2016, 18:46
This is a coincedence.
I have just fitted kirkosaurus urethene inserts on to my front and rear engine mounts.

 m http://kirkosaurus.com/Development.html (http://kirkosaurus.com/Development.html) m

Not as cheap as using tiger seal but maybe a bit neater.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 7, 2016, 19:18
Those are interesting. What do you think of them, harsh or OK?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: 1979scotte on May 7, 2016, 19:37
They wont be for everyone.
The original rubber??? Is still there sandwiched between the two inserts so it will be softer than a solid poly mount.
I can notice more vibration at idle and my exhaust now sounds a bit more boomy.
On the plus side gear change has never been better (did change gearbox oil for mt90 at the same time) and because i am turbo charged think a little extra stiffness in the mounts is no bad thing.
The car felt reet good on the 50 mile journey home.  s;) ;) s;)
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Jay67 on May 7, 2016, 20:37
Quote from: "Carolyn"Those are interesting. What do you think of them, harsh or OK?
Bit more vibration than stock mounts but you soon get used to it.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on May 8, 2016, 08:03
The idea of leaving the rubber in there is precisely what I was after.  Seems like a good compromise. I wonder how it would feel if you only did one mount?  I consdidered doing the other, but I'm leaving it for now as I'm very happy with the result I got.

Mine car is just sweet now.  It feels like it just left the showroom.  I do think the head steady has made a major improvement.  Again, not for everybody as it has to be fabricated, although pretty simple fabrication.

That's two solutions for a problem that most owners have, or will have.  Rubber gets old and there must be loads of soft mounts out there.

Amazing what sorting this does for the gear change.  Who'd have thunk it?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: keljon on May 9, 2016, 12:24
i did mine at the weekend with PU while i was changing the clutch
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k_D1riDIgis/VzBybsJU3RI/AAAAAAAAAvE/22oSdWW7wDsz6G9tT1cwdYvP17Rg-z9qgCLcB/s1600/IMG_0817.jpg)
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 2, 2017, 20:18
Thread resurrection!

Got some m10 threaded rod off Karl (willis15) and just ordered m10 nyloc washers, m10 penny washers, m10 rubber anti-vibration bobbins, a drill stand, 1m of 3mm angled steel and a spare 10mm drill bit. Guess what I'm building soon haha
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: jvanzyl on June 2, 2017, 21:52
Can you make more than one?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 2, 2017, 22:44
Perhaps...
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 3, 2017, 09:02
I'm surprised you went for steel angle, but it won't make much difference.  You'll need some slightly longer machine screws to attach the bracket to the cam cover.  The ones I used are 6 mm x 45 mm with a nominal 15 mm plain section.  You need washers on those.
I just had a peek in the  6 mm cap-head drawer, I still have a few.
PM me your address and I'll pop a couple in the post.
The hole in the bracket for the threaded rod needs to be oversized to allow the rod to sit at an angle.  We bent the angle at that point to get the rod sitting right. (pics below).  The steel will be harder to bend than ally.
John - make your own!!.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 3, 2017, 09:06
Hmm... I thought yours was steel... Dammit.  s:) :) s:)  
Alu would have been much smarter
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 3, 2017, 10:08
David and I are going to look at making a New Improved bracket later on. Let's see what we come up with?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: jvanzyl on June 3, 2017, 10:46
John has lots on his plate. And I thought Patrick might like the opportunity to establish a small side business to fund future upgrades ;-p
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 3, 2017, 11:30
Sorry buddy - didn't intend to be strident..
Let's see what we come up with later.  We'll make three.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 3, 2017, 20:07
Well that's going to make my first bracket attempt look pitiful isn't it?  s:( :( s:(
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 3, 2017, 20:24
Give it your best shot.  It might turn out really well.  Take a good look at the angles your dealing with, use your imagination and go from there.  One of the three is meant for you- oh we need four, one for the Boss too?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 3, 2017, 20:27
Haha. Yes indeed  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: wotugonado on June 3, 2017, 23:21
Kirk's are working out at just under £60 at the moment, do people think theyre worth it ? Realistically what's the life span of just pu sealing the mounts do you think ?
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 8, 2017, 19:51
I've got all my parts in and one of the parts I selected ended up being a very coincidental perfect fit for something on the car..

Almost done, one hole to drill and some heat shielding to take off and I'll take pics for the inevitable disapproval from Carolyn  s:) :) s:)
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 9, 2017, 09:38
So, this works rather well  s:) :) s:)  


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/3012f1f0d7c62441b77625d35dcc6e40.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/4a3c15f867814f2f55530f8f6d00fbca.jpg)

This will go down as one of those best bang for buck mods for me.
I now know how Bernie's gears were so smooth!
Acceleration is so much smoother now that the engine isn't swaying like a grandma at a Michael Bolton concert at shifts or when you put your foot down
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 9, 2017, 10:24
Looks fine.  Only one slight observation is the rubber is only working in one direction.  I'd 'sandwich' the bar with the rubbers. (If it's one solid piece, saw it in half?)

Well done.  Glad you like the result.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 9, 2017, 10:55
The rubber isn't a solid piece. So it's a solid steel end cap on each end, one end has an m10 threaded bolt the other end an m10 threaded hole. In the middle is nothing and it's encased in the rubber.
8.50 for one, but worth it
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: m1tch on June 9, 2017, 18:39
Anyone done this as a brace on the brake master cylinder - made quite a difference on my 'car with the engine in the wrong place' as there was less bulkhead flex.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 9, 2017, 18:40
Me no understandy
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 15, 2017, 16:00
Just drove my car without the head steady.  Damn it makes a difference.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 16, 2017, 17:49
New 'Improved' model now in.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 16, 2017, 18:10
Very nicely designed. No more weird bend
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: The Other Stu on June 16, 2017, 23:55
Question here, and could be different engines, but Patrick used an existing gap in the engine housing.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/3012f1f0d7c62441b77625d35dcc6e40.jpg)

Does yours not have these? It makes it an awful lot easier.
I've filled my rubber bits with tigerseal tonight (they were as sloppy as an undercooked pizza, despite not sagging).

I like the sound of this mod. It's a nice cheap, easy one, that I can imagine will have a huge impact.

Has anyone been tempted to fit 2?   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: The Other Stu on June 17, 2017, 00:00
Post de double
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 07:29
Funnily enough, I just messaged Carolyn yesterday that I'm looking into fitting a 2nd one  s:) :) s:)  

But yes this mod took me about 30 mins to make, tops. Screwing the cross bar into place is most of the work.

That engine hook hole was perfect. I figured, if it's strong enough to hold up the engine on a hoist, it's strong enough for a head steady.

Carolyn's obviously looks far sturdier and probably more effective, but mine definitely works a treat
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 07:59
I must say that I prefer to have bushings at both ends of the rod to minimise stress on the threads.  There's a lot of force involved here, witnessed by some distortion of the threads on the rod, which I noticed when I took it apart to fit the new bracket.  Mind you, the threaded rod is not made of the best steel.  

More than one way to flay a feline.
Title: Re: RE: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 08:30
Quote from: "Carolyn"I must say that I prefer to have bushings at both ends of the rod to minimise stress on the threads.  There's a lot of force involved here, witnessed by some distortion of the threads on the rod, which I noticed when I took it apart to fit the new bracket.  Mind you, the threaded rod is not made of the best steel.  

More than one way to flay a feline.
I noticed no stress on my threads when I took it off yesterday, but it's early days. You've had it on a lot longer though.
I will get another one of these cool rubber anti-vibration bobbins for the other side.

These are the puppies. Just ordered 3 more

Ebay item 172446477971
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 09:23
I used these, but David did make top-hat inserts on the lathe... at the very least you'd need some big 10 mm washers.

 m http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Mini- ... 4b0adbc66f (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Mini-Tie-Bar-Bushes-Standard-Kit-Set-x-4-Black-Rubber-/322304722543?hash=item4b0adbc66f) m
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: GT4-Play on June 17, 2017, 11:01
 m http://www.gt4-play.co.uk/shop/uprated-engine-mounts (http://www.gt4-play.co.uk/shop/uprated-engine-mounts) m


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: RE: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 11:48
Quote from: "GT4-Play"http://www.gt4-play.co.uk/shop/uprated-engine-mounts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A head steady in combination with these would be perfect
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 13:02
I retract my previous statement!

The engine lift bolt hole is NOT a suitable location.

My threaded rod showed no sign of fatigue or wear in the threads, that's because it's a decent steel and the block is ALU. So, the threads in the block have gone hahaha
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: The Other Stu on June 17, 2017, 14:46
Right, I'm glad you made that mistake for me  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

So what now? I don't have any welding skills (or ingredients).
I do, like you, have the heat cover holes at the wrong 90 degrees.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 14:52
Heat cover at the wrong angles? Eh?

Yeah I'll have to fashion a bracket like Carolyn's somehow. I'll have to go to mulaz's house and take him up on those welding lessons.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 15:00
I'm gutted because it was such a nice clean solution.
But having said that, another rubber bush might have stopped the damage, as per Carolyn's advice.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 16:55
Quote from: "shnazzle"Heat cover at the wrong angles? Eh?

Yeah I'll have to fashion a bracket like Carolyn's somehow. I'll have to go to mulaz's house and take him up on those welding lessons.

If you want an ally one, make up the bracket and the gussets, take to pro welder and have him do it.  Ally welding is not for beginners.  There's no reason it can't bee steel.

I'll talk to David about making some....
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 17:03
No I'd just use the angle metal I've got left.
In that case I could ask a local shop to weld it up quickly.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 17:13
The angle needs to be 50 mm x 50 mm to allow for ease of assembly and for the nut to clear the can cover.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 17:18
Ah, forgot about nut clearance haha. Must order some more than
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 17:25
Quote from: "shnazzle"I retract my previous statement!

The engine lift bolt hole is NOT a suitable location.

My threaded rod showed no sign of fatigue or wear in the threads, that's because it's a decent steel and the block is ALU. So, the threads in the block have gone hahaha

Thinking about it.  That threaded hole is in the head.  I've got one on the bench at the moment.  I took a look at the structure around the hole.  You're lucky you didn't take a chunk out of the head.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 18:11
Hmm.. I guess the potential forces are higher than when lifting the engine out
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: Carolyn on June 17, 2017, 18:22
Yes they are and they're different.  Lifting is steady pressure at 90 degrees to the hole.  Head steady is hammering and vibration in line with the hole.  You got away with that one.
Title: Re: Curing wobbly engine - head steady and goop.
Post by: shnazzle on June 17, 2017, 21:07
Made a bracket and refitted. Very similar to your first one. Luckily a lovely someone sent me some nice longer bolts  s;) ;) s;)  
Took it out, it still works.
More rubber on the way to finish it off.