I was down the pub with a few of my mates christmas eve:
Mr Focus RS
His sister Miss Golf GTi180
and Mr Clio 172
They were all taking the michael out of me for driving a hairdressers car, I told them that it clearly isn't and I would easily wipe the smile off the last two round a track as they oversteer of the course! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I'm unsure how the RS would perform.
Thus the challenge; fastest lap around a track of my choice at a time of my choice (Summer!) s:) :) s:) .
I'm doubtfully I could beat the RS due to it's outright power and track honned handling, although he does lack the skill and is simply a boy racer. The only skilled driver of the group would be the 172 as he used to drive a MGBGT and he has an idea of what he is doing.
Miss Golf GTi180 who was the most confident and mouthy of the bunch tells me she'll beat me because her car is fast and she just doesn't care about the car and what she does to it s:roll: :roll: s:roll: . I can see it now as she crashes off the track.... "Yeah but...yeah but... yeah but!" s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Can anyone help me, I need a small twisty track where my car can flaunt it's tallents and out handle the others, that rules out Thruxton!
All my modifications are listed below plus I hope to have a dastek unichip soon, so you have an idea how quick my car can go. I will be fitting the stock wheels back and may possibly even fit some of those Toyo track day tires just to make sure! Bare in mind I have completed a day with 1st lotus racing driver training!
What would be a good track for me to destroy them on? Whats my chances against the 172 and RS?
Please remember this is the credibility of our cars resting on this! s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
All help is much appreciated,
Thanks
I wouldn't worry too much about that Focus RS...I kill one weekly s:lol: :lol: s:lol: They are some 215hp/1300kg (at least over here), so the power/weight is similar to yours. The 0-60mph seems similar to stock MR2. If you fit race rubber and he doesn't, it's not even a competition s;) ;) s;)
Clio 172 is quoted to have a 0-60mph of 6.8s, which is close to stock MR2. If you get that Unichip in with a nice tune, you should be faster in straights, not to mention corners...
No idea about that Golf...but if it's one of those turbo diesels, watch out cause that massive torque makes them too easy to drive s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Then again, the difference between a good and a bad driver is easily a lot more than the difference between any of those cars...
You could of course take some useless stuff out of the car to make it lighter, but keep the spare, cause removing it will cause understeer s:? :? s:?
Thanks for the good advice Tem, much appreciated.
I'm guessing the Golf is a Golf 16v 1.8 litre and on the back of the car the letter ' i ' is in red. If so, don't be loosing any sleep over it....
The golf is heavy and doesn't handle as good round corners. In the straights, one tried it with me. HENCE Tried.
When I got to the other end. The guy asked me did I want another go with him. My reply was. I don't see the point in wasting my petrol on something so ......
Get the picture?
Also FYI
A Mecedes Benz SL350 tried it was well.... Nope.... Sorry Merc, your car ain't for street RUNS!!!!!! The guy asked me was engine was in the car and had I done anything to it? my answer NOPE..
Also an Audi A4 turbo Diesel and chipped.... nope sorry... See ya later
LOL
You want someone else to come with you on that day out, Lee?! s:D :D s:D
Don't underestimate that Clio: my brother's just got one (you might have seen it up our yard at the airport) and, after having given it a proper drive around the back roads, it's a seriously impressive car. It's got tons of grip, the engine is very good, and the gearshift is one of the smoothest I've ever tried (yes, it's better than the '2 by quite a margin!).
The Focus should piss it easily if it's well driven and the bloke knows what he's doing behind the wheel, otherwise that diff will just throw him straight off the track.
Forget that Golf. Now. It's got no chance.
Seriously, let me know when it is mate, I'll be there for sure.
I can't comment on th RS but the Clio and Golf could be quite a bit of competition for the '2. Are all the cars allowed to be modified?
Here's a 1/4mile Golf TD150 vs Clio 172 Mk2
http://kane.phpwebhosting.com/~burberry/TEST!/Cars%20-%20Clio%20RS%20versus%20Golf%20TDI%20150%204RM.wmv
A 180bhp (pertrol) Golf MKiV can be easily & cheaply remapped to 220bhp/230lbft+ which helps it its lardy 1400kg kerb weight.
The Clio 172/Mk1/Mk2 is 1035Kg, 172bhp and 200Nm of torque (according to the spec sheet). The Cup version is about 14Kg lighter.
I'd reckon a tight twisty circuit, Ty Croes?
Ed
Quote from: "hornseye"Are all the cars allowed to be modified?
I'm sure it's just a friendly run among friends with whatever mods they happen to have at that time s8) 8) s8)
I wouldn't worry too much about the golf but the RS and 172 are faster cars than a stock MR2.
Try this link for some track maps: m http://www.easytrack.co.uk/guides/oulton.asp?lid=15 (http://www.easytrack.co.uk/guides/oulton.asp?lid=15) m
Regards
Jason
Quote from: "ekona"You want someone else to come with you on that day out, Lee?! s:D :D s:D
.....Seriously, let me know when it is mate, I'll be there for sure.
No problem, should be June/July time. It will be good to have another MR2 there!
Thanks for the help everyone, I'll have a look at the tracks and find the twistyest harshed track! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
You also want a track with plenty of bumps. The RS will be all over the shop. I can remember watching a video of the RS at Anglesey and it looked really out of sorts. Understeering into corners then oversteering like a bugger on the way out. I think an MR2 would murder an RS round there. Donnington, although it has long straights might be a good bet because it has some really hard braking zones that would favour the 2.
On a billiard smooth track, with long straights I think the RS might just have the edge on a standard 2. I reckon yours would really stand up well against it anywhere though Lee. Your really need that Unichip to make sure though.
A good driver in any of those cars will make a mockery of the others...
I had a passenger ride round a track in an RS Focus. The demo driver declared the brakes were not up to track work - those on the car I was in were in a seriously bad way, with the steering wheel jumping around any time he laid a foot on the middle pedal. If your mate knows his RS, he will know about this and have to spare his brakes more than a little bit to make sure he doesn't have to replace them too soon. This will slow him down. If he doesn't know it, then when (if) they go TU on him, then he'll have to slow down as they won't work as well after that s;-) ;-) s;-)
Here's a thought: Why not ask Top Gear if you can use their track? You might need to wear a flame suit once Clarkson gets to hear about it though s:-? :-? s:-?
Quote from: "MRMike"You also want a track with plenty of bumps. The RS will be all over the shop.
Ah, that might explain why some say the RS is faster (on track), but I disagree cause it's much slower on real roads, which obviously are more or less bumpy, especially the fun ones s8) 8) s8)
I wouldn't worry about the Clio - It will have fallen to bits by then s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I can only echo what most others are saying here - the Golf will be laughable in comparison so prepare to mock your mouthy friend! s:D :D s:D
The Clio however is a naughty little monkey of a car s:shock: :shock: s:shock: - quick, very quick and will stick around bends pretty well too so I think that's your competition.
The RS - fast but big and heavy and needs to be well driven - not sure.
Wish I could bring my 106 along and show you all how its done!! Reckon if a proper driver took it out on the track (i.e. not me) it'd whip all! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
But alas, I am chicken and I hate taking corners so that race will only ever take place in my head.
Good luck - do it for the 2's! s:D :D s:D
Well I had a brief run in with an ST170 and i always new they handled well but boy they really seem to handle. I can't imagine the RS being much worse than a ST in corners despite its crazy diff. Obviously the 350 monstered it in the straights, but in corners I was wishing I was back in the 2...i drove into the corner pretty much as hard as I have done in the MR2 and woah hello big understeer, back on the power lashings of oversteer all the time this ST170 is chomping all over me..
I miss the 2 s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Thats suprises me Mike, I had heard nothing by bad things about the 170...and the RS for that matter.
Get suspensions and a front sway bar instead of a dastek, it will give you much more seconds on the track !
No way you can beat the RS on a straight, except with 2ZZ, a turbo or a COne final drive. While cornering, you won't either without proper mods, this car is a beast. Not that heavy, a wonderful engine, and even a LSD, which lack usually gives us a neat advantage agaist 99% of overpowered FF cars.
It's a luck there were only 2500 of those, else I bet we would always face those on track days :/
The Clio might be tough, because it is really easy to drive (way easier than a MR) but its understeering is a pita and the first error will frighten the driver to hell. You can beat it however with your current MR, if you've good driving skills and balls :p
The golf is not even worth considering, a stock MR with a broken engine can take it out s:-D :-D s:-D
In 3 cases, your stengh is the brakes of the car, look at where they brake... and brake 50 meters later. Maybe even 75m if they have no track experience. You'll regain the distance you lost in the straight (remember every car is more powerful than the MR, and have a better gear box than our)
I raced a RS on track, I only won because of the brakes and the suspensions. With the first, I could take what I lost in straight, with the second, I could go faster than him in tight and medium corners :-) :-) :-)
this was filmed, check it here :
http://dieamond.kicks-ass.net/Videos/Charade%2031-07-04_small.mpg
(slow, it's my home PC)
Thanks for the replies, unbelievably though, moneybags has just traded his RS for a Golf R32 s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Some people have far too much money, he's only 20!
I can tell you now, that RS, on the track would be unbeatable. At Millbrooke Proving Ground, on the infield handling track, there were only two cars faster that day I went and that was the VXT220 and the Caterhams. THey were that good. I was astonished at how quick and chuckable that RS really was. Admittedly, the driver said he had to work a hell of a lot harder to make it go as quick as some of the other cars, but it could be done. Be wary........
The Golf shouldn't even make a showing. Wouldn't worry about that........
The Clio on the other hand is a different matter. The 182 Cup version has just come second in Evo magazines COTY, they rated it THAT highly. I have been in a 172 and its VERY quick and very grippy for a small car. If I wanted to go back to Tin Top for peanuts, it would be a very very tempting choice.........
Just read the last post and seen the RS has been traded for an R32. Hmmmmm........going to be VERY quick and very grippy. Could struggle against that!!!
The Golf R32 is easier to beat than the RS, its driving is very special, because of the haldex (I've had a TT quattro before the MR).
It turns like a traction if not moved properly, shouldn't be a problem to beat an inexperienced driver in that !
Quote from: "dieamond"The Golf R32 is easier to beat than the RS, its driving is very special, because of the haldex (I've had a TT quattro before the MR).
It turns like a traction if not moved properly, shouldn't be a problem to beat an inexperienced driver in that !
I have to say I think completely differently, and say the R32 will be a lot harder to beat than the RS. Unless the RS is on billiard smooth track, and the driver has a good idea about what he's doing, I don't think it would be 'that' much quicker than a 2 on a very tight, twisty circuit.
The R32 is much easier to drive for someone with a small amount of talent, and I'd be veyr wary of that on track. A definate wolf in sheeps clothing!
I beat the 2 the same day on the same track, but it's hard to be sure of the level of the drivers...
The RS was quite well driven, the r32 was (as always on this kind of car) driven like a potatoe.
I drove the 182 cup - its a nice torquey engine but the front does feel heavy, needs chucking into corners with no nice smooth turn in hence loosing time.
Can't say anything about the others, altho i do love the Golf R32
Yes my mate with the clio was complaining of very bad oversteer last night when we were out on the lash.
All depends on the driver, conditions and circuit.
**IF** you had the same driver in all four cars who's competent in both FWD and RWD cars (and more importantly, is consistant), dry hot weather and a 'fair' circuit like Cadwell (half twisty, half fast) then, and only then would you have a fair comparison.
Weight and balance are in the Mr2's favour, but that's really it. The RS is a heavily track biased car, has far more power and is hoogely competant. Personally I think the RS would walk it.
The other two are too road based really, the golf particularly is a big heavy thing and not really suited to track work these days to be honest. The Clio would likely fare better. The track derivatives are awesome pieces of kit (and would arse everything here). But again, we're talking about a road car here. It'll probably make a good showing, probably around Mr2 territory.
However, in the Mr2 you *will* be having far more fun than they will. Depends whether your ego can handle not being the fastest car around a track, and hairdresser jibes from people who've never driven a sports car. Unfortunately there are many unenlightened souls out there who believe that the only thing that matters is how fast something is. Which is bollocks. I have driven some very fast kit in my time and they tend not to be the most fun cars in the world to drive.
However to some people its all about pissing competitions and I'm far too old for that sort of nonsense.
Well said that man
But if you're serious about going ahead with this:
1/ Abandon any upgrades you have planned. You'll be wasting your money.
2/ Set the circuit as Anglesey as it's the twistiest and has no straights to speak of. It really does lean things heavily in your favour.
3/ Spend the money you would have spent on the Dastek on tuition at Anglesey.
I absolutely GUARANTEE you that you will go far, far quicker around the circuit with a standard car and tuition than you ever will with a bolt on chip, zorst and air filter. To a dramatic degree.
Finally you'll have to book a TEST day that allows timing. You will absolutely NOT be allowed to do this on a track day. You will likely also need a licence and some timing gear (about £250 between the 4 of you).
In all honesty, if you do that, you'll wipe the floor with them. Then again you would in a 1300 mini also as when you've got that ability, it's with you no matter what you drive.
In the above statement, I always thought he has some track experience / training to beat those cars and drivers :-) :-) :-)
Also:
0-60 times are utterly irrelevant on track unless you're doing a standing start, which unless you're sprinting it, you won't be.
...and you're giving the R32 far too much credit. It's a massively heavy road car. The 4WD system is not in the same league as something like the EVO's and Scooby's run for track work. Most of the time the car runs FWD only bringing the rear wheels into play when neccessary. Nice for the road and economy, not ideal for the track.
Good track cars are inevitably not good road cars. The more you bias something to be good at one, the less good it is at the other. The R32 is a road car, the RS is a track car. The RS is far more suited to the role and would have a definate advantage weight wise (less mass = better braking + handling provided it's set up right, which it is), it has a proper LSD for the job in hand, not some fudge based around the ABS system, and it has masses of torque.
Put it this way. If I was to buy a FWD car that I had to use every day and wanted to do the odd track day, it'd be a Focus RS. It's the most suited to the job currently. If I could handle it being a bit more hardcore then I'd go for an Integra Type R. Even more so to the point of it being a second car then a Clio Cup race car.
You'll notice that on every upgrade there is actually a drop in power, but in each step there is also a big drop in weight and a big jump in bias towards track.
Quote from: "dieamond"In the above statement, I always thought he has some track experience / training to beat those cars and drivers :-) :-) :-)
Made me think the exact opposite to be honest.
Which is not meant as a dig by the way.
come on, there's no way an inexperienced driver in a MR underpowered car can beat any of those 4 cars, even with inexperienced driver
It's so much easier to reach 80% of the potential of those car that it would be a clear defeat for MR-S in all cases
It's all down to the driver. What car they're in is largely irrelevent.
What I meant was the original post struck me as one that was written by someone with little track experience and that I didn't mean that as a dig. Purely down to the fact that he wouldn't have been asking the question in the first place if he was a seasoned track driver.
I have to say that Juan is absolutley correct. Upgrades to the driver are far more effective than to the car...
I once saw the perfect example of this when a chap with a big mouth and a (very) fast car, had his arse comprehensively whipped by one guy in 1.0l Nissan Micra courtesy car, and another in a tired 'A' reg Long wheelbase Transit... You can have the quickest car in the world, but its useless if you lack the skills to exploit it.
Quote from: "juansolo"Integra Type R.
Always regretted not buying one of those when I had the chance. Probably everything I wanted in a car at that time - and the only thing it lacks now I've had the '2 is RWD. Very nice bit of kit.
Back on topic now ....
Quote from: "GSB"I have to say that Juan is absolutley correct. Upgrades to the driver are far more effective than to the car...
I once saw the perfect example of this when a chap with a big mouth and a (very) fast car, had his arse comprehensively whipped by one guy in 1.0l Nissan Micra courtesy car, and another in a tired 'A' reg Long wheelbase Transit... You can have the quickest car in the world, but its useless if you lack the skills to exploit it.
Good, I shall be having far more fun exploiting my MR2's mid-engined characteristics, and be ahead of them.
I'm with you lot, the upgrade to the driver is by far the most benificial, thats why I had tuition with Andy Walsh as I said at the begining of the post s:P :P s:P .
But I'm still after a Dastek to sort out my fueling!