Ok, having consulted with the Mrs, ref dates, I'm offering up the 6th Feb as our pre-cat gutting meet.
Anyone that wants in for that date please stick your names in, intention will be to commence in Welwyn at 9am for sausage sarnies and get as many done as possible.
Whos up for it?
Put me down please Mark s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Thanks for offering your facilities and expertise matey. And what do you suggest in way of a thank you. Something liquid for you, flowers or choccies for the missus and a donation to the club each s:?: :?: s:?:
Could you tell me what exactly is involved?
Does it affect warranty / MOT?
Cheers
I'm not available to play surgeon on the 6th of Feb (in fact I'm generally only available during the week), but I'm sure theres enough expertise and experience there now to do the job without me...
Dont forget your gaskets!
(http://www.spydermagazine.com/files/GSBgaskets1.jpg)
Part number is T90917-06065
I can vouch for Mark's hospitality and welcome. Its more than up to the job!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Good luck everyone. Well worth doing.........
Count me in too please Mark! s:D :D s:D
Much appreciated mate.
I'd like my cats gutting, I'll be there.
Thanks s:) :) s:)
I may pop along to say hi but I'll have to leave by 11.00 due to football.
Mark, is Feb 6th before or after the brake lines s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I am chickening out on the pre-cat gut, leaving it till the 3 years is up, then there's no argument if any thing does blow. Will you still be around 2s in 2007?
Roger
Quote from: "roger"Mark, is Feb 6th before or after the brake lines s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I am chickening out on the pre-cat gut, leaving it till the 3 years is up, then there's no argument if any thing does blow. Will you still be around 2s in 2007?
Roger
I'd get rid of them now, if it then goes tits up you can always stick on a manifold with the cats intact, and in the meantime you'll be safe in the knowledge that your precats cannot possibly do your engine any dmage whatsoever form the bottom of a skip... If it still blows? Theres always someone around who'll be able help you out...
Incidentally, I have just this very minute finished removing my own pre-cats, just finishing up bolting the nappy back on now. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
For the trivia fans amongst you, the '04 looks like it has slightly different block than my old '01, as the maifold support brackets are now very sturdy looking cast affairs that bolt in 4 places on the block, as opposed to the old cars pressed brackets that only bolted in 2 places. They have also solved the problem of the cracking welds on the cat heatshield by redesigning the shield without the welds, and the manifold looks liek it is very slightly different in design, although it could just be that it was built on a different pipe bender...
plus the fact that if they can dissapear on their pwnnn, (thats why we remove them) how will Toyot know if you removed them on purpose or they have just disintegrated?
Grants right gut them now.
as for teh brakelines I reckon they will be after this, a few niggles to iron out first, plus the little matter of creating enough garage space,
guess whose building a mezanine floor this weekend :-) :-) :-)
Quote from: "markiii"guess whose building a mezanine floor this weekend :-) :-) :-)
Out goes the engine lift then? s:( :( s:(
OK, you have me persuaded, I think. Just one last question when I painted my manifold cover I could not get the LH O2 sensor out. Do they have to come out to gut, or can you get at everything from the other end?
I'll ask the next question as well, just in case. If you must get it out, and its been cross threaded at installation, or it breaks is there the know-how to deal with it. Should gaskets + O2 sensor be on the shopping list?
Presume you will have room for me Mark, probably have to bring the "beer" before it goes off s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
roger:
Quote from: "roger"I could not get the LH O2 sensor out. Do they have to come out to gut, or can you get at everything from the other end?
I'll ask the next question as well, just in case. If you must get it out, and its been cross threaded at installation, or it breaks is there the know-how to deal with it. Should gaskets + O2 sensor be on the shopping list?
Roger, the manifold itself has to be removed, and yes, the O2's need to come out. Gaskets are definately worth buying (although you can re-use the manifold gasket, but they are only £7 new), but O2's are damn expensive, even the 3rd party ones aren't cheap. So, it's a bit of a gamble - it might be that it's just really tight, or it may be cross-threaded, which one of mine were - getting it out destroyed the sensor and knackered the bung on the manifold, I had to get it retapped by a proffesional s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "roger"Quote from: "markiii"guess whose building a mezanine floor this weekend :-) :-) :-)
Out goes the engine lift then? s:( :( s:(
OK, you have me persuaded, I think. Just one last question when I painted my manifold cover I could not get the LH O2 sensor out. Do they have to come out to gut, or can you get at everything from the other end?
I'll ask the next question as well, just in case. If you must get it out, and its been cross threaded at installation, or it breaks is there the know-how to deal with it. Should gaskets + O2 sensor be on the shopping list?
Presume you will have room for me Mark, probably have to bring the "beer" before it goes off s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
roger:
mezzanine floor, is over the workshop so the engine lift should be safe :-) :-) :-)
on a car as new as yours roger it should come out no problem. however as I'd advise everyone douse it with penetrating oil regularly beforehand.
absolute worst case the car will still be driveable even if the sensor breaks, which means you could get it to dealer for a warranty fix i necessary.
May pop along and say "Hi" if you let me.. I can give Chris a hand with the sausage sarnies!
no problem welcome anytime
Quote from: "Comer"I may pop along to say hi but I'll have to leave by 11.00 due to football.
It's a Sunday mate; or do you play Sunday League s:?: :?: s:?:
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Is there room for me
Will be a very early start but is it okay if I come along s:?: :?: s:?:
I'm in the same boat as roger (LH 02 sensor wise), but I don't have a warranty to back it up, any idea if it's likely to be gutable?
My mum works for a brewery so i should be able to fill the car with booze before i depart s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Quote from: "Comer"I may pop along to say hi but I'll have to leave by 11.00 due to football.
It's a Sunday mate; or do you play Sunday League s:?: :?: s:?:
Jammy West Ham v Derby 12.30 kick off
All of those attending I am sure would of thought of this anyway... s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .... but a donation to the club for help and the expertise on hand and the work that is going to be done would be greatly appreciated.
Rest assured you will get involved in knocking out the cats yourself once the manifold has been taken off, and washing them out afterwards...just watch the hose pressure and what hole the water is going to come out of..I got a faceful!
Nothing to do with pre-cats, but as there seems to be a bit of a gathering just down the A1 from me, I can offer anyone going the following free s:D :D s:D items as a part of a pre-Spring clean:
A rear Yokohama tire 205/50/15 with 5-6mm depth so would suit an 00-02 owner. I kept it when I had to replace the other rear due to a puncture as a backup. Will fit in the underbonnet locker if you leave spare out for the journey.
A set of 00-02 side vents with fitting tags which I had left over when I changed to the colour coded vents.
PM to let me know.
Big decisions, but I have finally decided not to go for the precat gut.
I recall reading somewhere that the thought was 03 or 04 cars appear to have a different type of pre-cat, different mesh size or something. That might have been Toyota's cure. And also I think there has been only one report of an engine going (which may or may not have been a pre-cat). The survey should confirm this.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and my car can be used as the base line level in any analysis on the subject s:? :? s:?
Post warranty, we'll see what extended warranties say at that time, and what the future held for post 03/04 cars. If they start going once the mileage has been put on, then I'll definitely go for it - so long as mine hasn't gone before!
Sorry to miss the party folks, but see you at the next one.
roger
Ok I make that
FunkyMonkey
Peter Wright
Bowman
Heathsimpson
Ekona
Phil 4
Maxum
Bongo
Two's Company
Thats 9 so lets call it a day there as I think thats going to be pushing it for one day as it is.
Please note
1. Please PM to confirm if you are definately coming, and I'l send you my address.
2. If you have 02 sockets or sockets sets please bring them
3. A trip to halfords for some penetrating oil is a necesity and you will need to douse manifold bolts and 02 socket threads liberally at regular intervals teh week before.
4. I would recomend fitting new gaskets as per Grants link above.
Quote from: "markiii"3. A trip to halfords for some penetrating oil is a necesity and you will need to douse manifold bolts and 02 socket threads liberally at regular intervals the week before.
This will be more productive if you remove the manifold heatshield the week before too, access to all the bolts is far easier with it off.
good advice
Hopefully I'll be there! Will PM to confirm. What a fun day it will be! s:D :D s:D
Righty, half a can of penetrant sprayed on studs, o2 sockets and the exhaust manifold studs too, car moved into garage and it'll sit there until Monday AM, so plenty of time to soak it all in.
It may be worthy for someone to post some pictures to advise the unknown of where to spray their penetrating fluid s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
just ask the missus nicely mate :-) :-) :-)
QuoteIt may be worthy for someone to post some pictures to advise the unknown of where to spray their penetrating fluid.
It's already more or less available here:
m http://www.spydermagazine.com/ (http://www.spydermagazine.com/) m
Look at the article on "PPE Header Installation." Note the drawn green arrows in the pictures. Anything shown from the manifold to the precat-to-downpipe connection is worth hitting several times with loosener. In addition to removing the heat shields, you'll also save a lot of time by removing the lower cover (aka: diaper) beneath the car. This gives you access to the lower nuts involved, and allows you to spray the two fittings that bolt the precat chambers to the block. The 12 and 14mm bolts there can be problematic.
Thought I'd get a head start this morning and spray all the bolts ready for the meet. Of course the first bolt on the heatshield snapped, have managed to get it out and will get new bolt tomorrow. Can't remove sensors as I don't have the spanner, can anyone tell me a part number and where to get one? s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Erm... Erm... help?!
Okay, so I thought I'd try and get a good start on this as well, so popped down to Halfords this morning and got some penetrating spray. Came home and started spraying all the bolts, and taking off bits like the heatshield (both parts), the lower nappy (awkward) and the O2 sensors (seeing as I have a socket which I'll bring Sunday, Bowman). Had a quick peek inside the O2 sensor sockets, just to see what a pre-cat actually looks like in person... and promptly wet myself. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
My right-hand pre-cat has what appears to be a hole in it, where I'm presuming a bit of it has broken off/disintegrated!
I'm 95% sure of this, as the other one is completely solid with no gaps in at all. I only doubt myself the 5% as I've never seen one before in the flesh. I really hope I'm wrong. Really.
And yes, looking at my sig, you'll see mine is a '53 plate car. Does this make me the second person in the UK to have the pre-cat problem on a post '03 motor?
Go straight to Toyota, Do not pass go, do not collect £200....
You have a defect that requires immediate warranty work, as the missing lump, will undoubtedly have made its way down to the main cat by now, and if it hasnt blocked it already, it soon will...
Quote from: "ekona"I'm 95% sure of this, as the other one is completely solid with no gaps in at all. I only doubt myself the 5% as I've never seen one before in the flesh. I really hope I'm wrong. Really.
I'm afraid you're right s:? :? s:? It's supposed to be solid, without any gaps or fractures.
(well, obviously it's actually full of tiny holes)
I know that's the sensible solution Grant, but what'll they do? I've already spoke to the Service Manager there regarding pre-cats before, and he was of the impression that they don't even exist (!). I can obviously show him now where they are, and what a broken one looks like, but I got the feeling the most they'll do is just change the pre-cats manifold bit for a new one: I really can't see them stripping down the engine to check if anything's gone seriously wrong.
I'll have a quick search through these forums now methinks and see how everyone else has handled it with their dealers. I guess I won't be coming on Sunday after all. s:( :( s:(
They wont be stripping the engine, and to be frank you dont want them too... But they can get rid of the knackered manifold and change the main cat, Thus preventing your engine from expiring with a terminal bang...
Right, I'm back on for Sunday! s:D :D s:D
Took the car to Mr T. today, and after having a brief and not-very-pleasant chat with the service manager (who told me that the pre-cats are designed to break apart, and that he couldn't tell me if mine was definately on it's way out as he'd never seen a good one!), they're going to replace the pre-cat manifold on Wednesday. He did say that he would replace it under warranty this time, but that he'd never do it again. I didn't have the heart to tell him that it didn't matter as I was going to gut it on Sunday anyway...! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
The bloke was a complete arse about the whole situation, though. Still, at least if I do have any further problems down the line at least my warranty claim for damaged pre-cats is now logged.
Quotethe pre-cats are designed to break apart
Well, no harm done then. Eh?
Ekona: I hope you tell the people who ring to ask you how everything went that the service was appalling.
Now moving onto my troubles...
I've been spraying bolts and things for a few days now and thought i'd have a crack at getting the heatshield off today.
First problem is the bolts on the top of the heatshield are very rusty and seem to crumble with the touch of a finger, didn't dare to touch them with any sort of tool.
Second the left hand O2 sensor may very well already be cross threaded (as previously thought) as it didn't seem to want to move (although it could be down to a crap wrench as it seemed to slip, but i don't think the O2 should need that much force).
Sorry if I seem like a complete mechanical womble, it's because I am s:o :o s:o pps:
My limited knowledge makes me think this is a pretty hopeless situation (especially with the O2 sensor) - am i right?
Quote from: "Bongo"First problem is the bolts on the top of the heatshield are very rusty and seem to crumble with the touch of a finger, didn't dare to touch them with any sort of tool.
Second the left hand O2 sensor may very well already be cross threaded (as previously thought) as it didn't seem to want to move (although it could be down to a crap wrench as it seemed to slip, but i don't think the O2 should need that much force).
The heatshield bolts itself are probably just fine, though they might have some surface rust. It has a weird "plate" under it that makes the crumbling feeling.
The O2 sensors are very tight, even if they are on properly...
(pretty impossible to guess if they are cross threaded)
Bongo
Had the same problem with the heat-shield bolts, only 1 broke and I managed to drill that out with just a normal bit. Must admit they don't feel that strong
I'd love to come and have mine removed, if only it were somewhere nearer - anyone in the NE of the country fancy helping me remove mine? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Here's a question for those who know what they're doing - is it possible for me to check the pre-cats without removing the manifold? I don't have the tool for removing the 02 sensors, so if there's a way of checking them without removing these sensors, any advice would be gratefully received... I'd really like to have a look at them, just to check that they're still intact.
Grant
Didn't you say that you new car was really loud (whiney) since you had de-catted the car? Did you sort out what was causing it?
Jason
Quote from: "lordretsudo"I'd love to come and have mine removed, if only it were somewhere nearer - anyone in the NE of the country fancy helping me remove mine? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Here's a question for those who know what they're doing - is it possible for me to check the pre-cats without removing the manifold? I don't have the tool for removing the 02 sensors, so if there's a way of checking them without removing these sensors, any advice would be gratefully received... I'd really like to have a look at them, just to check that they're still intact.
If not removing teh manifold, or teh 02 sensors, the only way to inspect them is by dropping teh main cat pipe and looking up into teh manifold
Actually got both heat shields off shearing any bolts s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Must spray it up before the weekend decat meet.
Note: I removed my O2 sensors using a spanner from underneath when the top heat shield was loose. They can also be disconnected from the plugs. I only had to remove one as the shield can be manouvered around the other with the plug disconnected s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:cry: :cry: s:cry: I'm scared about this whole thing! I have no mechanical expertise to talk off - it took me about 3 hours to fit the Apexi to our '2!
I'll be there Sunday - I'll be the one with a puzzled look on his face.
Can anybody get hold of the two gaskets I need to replace? If someone could get a pair for me I'd be grateful???? PM me!
Jono
ok guys we are now up to 8 definate attendees, so I suggest we stop there if we are to get them all done in a day.
please comesuitabley dressed to get your hands dirty as we are going to need a team efort to get through 8 manifolds in one day.
thanks,
Mark.
Going to be like a production line, I will take some piccies to post s:) :) s:)
If it's ok I would like to be an early starter and stay until early afternoon as I have another commitment on s:?: :?: s:?: Please let me know what time you want to get the ball rolling.
no problem, if your here for 9am we'll do yours firs
Quote from: "markiii"no problem, if your here for 9am we'll do yours firs
I'll be there s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Bagsy 2nd go! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:D :D s:D
ok chaps, having spoken to MPH ref his gutted manifold sitting in my garage what I propose to do is remove manifold 1, and reattach the pregutted manifold while someone is gutting teh one we have taken off, and proceed in thsi fashion down teh list of cars.
this should allow us to spee things up nicell,
thanks Martin.
Has anyone got any spare studs and nuts? They're always useful as they are a slightly uncommon thread with a 10x1.25mm thread pitch, as opposed to the more normal 10x1.5mm.
If it all goes wrong and a stud actually snaps, and is beyond hope of extraction, then as long as its not in the blind hole in the right hand side of the manifold I've found its a very quick and simple fix to run a 10mm drill through the hole and just use an everyday 10mm nut and bolt to rejoin the cat to the manifold.
For the blind hole thats beyond hope of proper repair, then you can drill it out to 10.5mm, and run a 12mm tap into the hole. You'll need to run a 12mm drill through the matching hole in the cat flange (dont forget to cover the 2 exhaust ports), but once done you can simpley screw a 12mm bolt in to secure the manifold...
Not perfect solutions, but they're bloody quick, and you can turn around a supposedly shagged manifold in about 20 minutes.
Best of luck on Sunday guys.
Quote from: "ekona"Bagsy 2nd go! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:D :D s:D
If you can get there for 9am you can be the first; it will give me an extra bit of time as I need to allow just over an hour for the journey s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I'll slot in 2nd or 3rd dependent on who makes it before me s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Quote from: "ekona"Bagsy 2nd go! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:D :D s:D
If you can get there for 9am you can be the first; it will give me an extra bit of time as I need to allow just over an hour for the journey s:wink: :wink: s:wink: I'll slot in 2nd or 3rd dependent on who makes it before me s:? :? s:?
It'll take me just over an hour too, and with my legendary sense of direction I'll be lucky to make it there at all! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I'll try my damndest to be there spot on 9am though.
/me prays the AA route finder webpage gives me the correct directions s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Err... think it will be taking me more than an hour! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Let me know when you are on the A1M and you can follow me from there if you like?
The future is Satnav, and you all know it s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "Two's Company"Err... think it will be taking me more than an hour! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: I assume your not getting their for 9am then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
If anyone is specifcally intending to get here later than 9am can you let me know, so we can plan breakfast.
ta.
Quote from: "markiii"If anyone is specifcally intending to get here later than 9pm can you let me know, so we can plan breakfast.
ta.
Would that not be dinner by then? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
edited due to stupidity
Quote from: "heathstimpson"Quote from: "Two's Company"Err... think it will be taking me more than an hour! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: I assume your not getting their for 9am then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yep going for an early start, hoping to be in the queue as one of the first to be done!?
AA route planner reckons 2:30 so I'm going to leave at 06:00 to allow for time spent lost s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Mark
What's your favourite beer?
Liz
Will I be able to pay up memebership on Sunday and what about stickers? [having trouble getting to Paypal]
Hi Bowman s:) :) s:) - there is no membership to pay up, membership on this club is FREE s:D :D s:D
However, I will shamelessly mention again that a donation to the club coffers would be nice from those who are having the pre-cats done, the donation button at the bottom of the screens goes straight through to allow you to put money in.
SteveJ is the sticker guy, he is still around on here, could you PM him please?
Thanks guys
Seems like a 2 hour trip for me, A50, then down the M1 for 100 miles (and a bit extra).
Anyone coming from a similar direction fancy a convoy?
pity my precats decided to gut themselves around the same time this meet is being organised, as i would'nt have minded sorting them out before they went on their own accord s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "Tomr2"pity my precats decided to gut themselves around the same time this meet is being organised, as i would'nt have minded sorting them out before they went on their own accord s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Indeed, would have been easier to find in a convoy aswell...
How's your car running now?
i know mate, ive just bought a Sat Nav system aswell! you cn borrow it if you like mate...
Car seems ok still, had a new (well, rather used Main Cat) from a salvage yard and going to fit that tommorrow as performance is dire above 3000rpm as the engine cant breath. oil consumption doesnt appear to have changed, but im going to be keeping a close eye on it for now.
it definately sounds better though! a lot throatier around 2k-4k rpm...
Mark I know I'm probably suggesting the obvious here but will you be reporting back what you find when gutting the pre-cats?
How many showed signs of breaking up, year and mileage etc.
Roadsterman - This has been documented and will be posted later, along with pictures!
All gone.
Thanks to Markiii, Chris, and also Jeff. Mark & Jeff's help was invaluable, and Chris's food and hospitality made it all the better. Thanks to all.
Good to see lots of new faces too!
Bye-bye four day old pre-cats! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Big thanks to Mark for everything today; and also to Chris for perfect bacon butties, top-notch bangers'n'mash, and drinks on tap. Thanks also to everyone who pitched in today, was really good to meet some new faces too.
See you turbo-time Mark... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
BTW, for those that asked about the TRD-copy spoiler, I got it from here (http://www.autocosmeticsuk.com/), although the website is a complete mess now, has no details of products and no contact phone number (that I can see). Looks like they might not actually be trading anymore... s:( :( s:(
no problem, guys, an enjoyable day, and thanks from Chris and I for the beer/wine/choccies.
For anyone curious it seems teh post 03 facelift cars have both thicker driveshafts, and double the brackets holding the manifold to the engine block, possibly in an effort to reduce vibrations of teh Pre-cats? both of these make it rather more awkward to get the manifold off.
However, based on teh following results you have to ask how successful it has been.
Pre-cat condition results;
Two's Company
53 reg 19000 miles, Cats in perfect condition.
Phil 4
51 reg 41000 miles, Cats in near perfect condition.
Heathsimpson
03 reg, 14500, cats near perfect, 2 x sheared studs, biggest casualties of teh day
Maxum
00 reg, 35000 miles Slight imperfections under RHS 02 sensor
Bongo
01 reg, 27000 miles, Crack in RHS pre-cat, slight imperfections under the 02 sensor on RHS
Bowman
01 reg, 27000 miles, slight denting in RHS pre-cat, otherwise perfect.
Ekona,
53 reg, 19000 miles, only 3 day old pre-cats, already cracks forming in the precats.
Observation I took from teh day was that damage was almost universally directly below the 02 sensor locations. Making me wonder if when fully screwed in teh 02 sensors perhpas touch/impact on teh pre-cat material?
many thanks to everyone for thier patience, and for sticking around to help out after theirs was done. Also to Liz for documenting teh day and giving lessons in how to smash a pre-cat :-) :-) :-)
I reckon that allowing time for breakfast, lunch, Heaths problems, e.t.c we averaged 8 cars in 8 hours, so not bad going at all.
Good to see Chris Roy back in teh driving seat after a while on teh bench, hope to see you at more meets this year Chris.
Just to add my thanks to one and all for an enjoyable? day. Was good to meet you all and thanks for sticking around to the end. Mental note to park in fron of garge if I go to Marks again. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "ekona"Big thanks to Mark for everything today; and also to Chris for perfect bacon butties, top-notch bangers'n'mash, and drinks on tap. Thanks also to everyone who pitched in today, was really good to meet some new faces too.
I can't say it any better so i'll just agree with you s:) :) s:)
Interesting results from the meet there..
So, Mark, when's the next one? s;) ;) s;)
<runs off very quickly!> s:) :) s:)
Thanks to Mark and everyone for the help on the car today and to Chris for the lovely food.
On my way back I didn't notice much difference on the motorway but when pulling away there is now some extra 'throatiness' at lower revs!
So all is well! s8) 8) s8)
Great to meet some new faces yesterday and catching up with old friends, in particular Chris, great to see you on the road again s:D :D s:D .
A big mention to Marks' Chris for the lovely breakfast and lunch, and giving up her time to prepare it for us, thankyou so much. s:) :) s:)
And to Sam, who is now the gutting expert!
I am currently trying to load the pictures I have taken onto my website but its a telewest thing so having problems at the moment s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Sorted now s:? :? s:? - a few pictures - click on my website link below - click on home on the left and it brings down pre-cat gutting meet and the pictures are there. Excuse the poor photography s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Click on the pictures to make them bigger.
Again it was nice to meet some news faces and thanks to all especially the hospitality shown by Mark and super chef Chris. Mark please edit your cat post as my car has done 14,500 miles not 40,500 s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "markiii"... possibly in an effort to reduce vibrations of the Pre-cats?
Observation I took from the day was that damage was almost universally directly below the 02 sensor locations. Making me wonder if when fully screwed in the 02 sensors perhpas touch/impact on the pre-cat material?
Mark so if I'm understanding you correctly then the theory that vibration causes the pre-cats to fail leading to engine failure could be correct?
Is it possible that the damage under the O2 sensors could be inflicted by the un-trained owners making there own inspections?
Heath & Phil, did you get any popping noises on the way home?
I may of misheard what you said on the mileage so that might be my fault s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Quote from: "Liz"Heath & Phil, did you get any popping noises on the way home?
Not too many but it was alot of foot down motorway cruising.
Quote from: "Liz"I may of misheard what you said on the mileage so that might be my fault s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
No problemo; you must have just thought I was really keen doing 40k in under two years s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "Liz"Heath & Phil, did you get any popping noises on the way home?
Not on the way home, as heath it was mostly motorway driving, but had noticeably more on the way to work this morning. Will be able to hear them properly when the tortoise shell is gone s:) :) s:)
panic this morning when the yellow warning light came on, go to Toyota dealer!!. Decided to return home and have disconnected the battery and cleand the MAF. At the moment it looks like it's sorted s8) 8) s8)
Congrats, guys. Geography prevents most of us on this side of the pond from doing that sort of thing, but the idea is an excellent one. I can see how two people working on a car might expedite the process a bit. Were the gains in efficiency from that angle or was it primarily a matter of know-how, i.e., "take that bolt off there," etc.?
Quote from: "roadsterman99"Quote from: "markiii"... possibly in an effort to reduce vibrations of the Pre-cats?
Observation I took from the day was that damage was almost universally directly below the 02 sensor locations. Making me wonder if when fully screwed in the 02 sensors perhpas touch/impact on the pre-cat material?
Mark so if I'm understanding you correctly then the theory that vibration causes the pre-cats to fail leading to engine failure could be correct?
Is it possible that the damage under the O2 sensors could be inflicted by the un-trained owners making there own inspections?
ref the vibration, I can't see any other reason to add another 2 bolts, but I'm speculating s to the reason. The Pre-ct material is very brittle, so it's not impossible.
ref the dents under th 02 sensors, I would say no it's not a result of owners checking them.
you can't put the 02 in too far due to the design, if it touchs the pre-cat then it's either supposed to or it's a bad design. however if vibrations isa contributingfactor, the 02 contacting with the pre-car certainly wouldn't help.
If the O2 sensors came into contact with the precat material, you see tell-tale marks on them... I'd say that any damage in the local area of the sensor would be down to the locally disturbed gas flow...
Well what a day.
Would like to thank both Mark and Chris for hosting the day,
Those old precats didnt give up with out a fight i can tell you,
looking at my battel scars my right hand thum and all 4 fingers have a total 8 cuts one which messures 1 inch slice and one large bruise to my fore arm and my left hand just one small cut but 3 bruises to the arm,
with that and 2 sheared mainifold studs from heathstimpson, and im sure Mark and some of you other guys must be licking your own wounds today but job well done.
Oh and did anyone find a spanner that i lost up the A1 on the way home cos im sure i herd a click of a spaner dropping at about 80 just before
the M25 turn off s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "Liz"Great to meet some new faces yesterday and catching up with old friends, in particular Chris, great to see you on the road again s:D :D s:D .
A big mention to Marks' Chris for the lovely breakfast and lunch, and giving up her time to prepare it for us, thankyou so much. s:) :) s:)
Thanks Liz - good to seeyou all again too, and more importantly be back behind the wheel again!! s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D Didn't see any spanners on the way home.. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm sure i'll be around for some of the meets Mark - gotta a years milage to catch up on s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "markiii"Quote from: "roadsterman99"Quote from: "markiii"... possibly in an effort to reduce vibrations of the Pre-cats?
Observation I took from the day was that damage was almost universally directly below the 02 sensor locations. Making me wonder if when fully screwed in the 02 sensors perhpas touch/impact on the pre-cat material?
Mark so if I'm understanding you correctly then the theory that vibration causes the pre-cats to fail leading to engine failure could be correct?
Is it possible that the damage under the O2 sensors could be inflicted by the un-trained owners making there own inspections?
ref the vibration, I can't see any other reason to add another 2 bolts, but I'm speculating s to the reason. The Pre-ct material is very brittle, so it's not impossible.
ref the dents under th 02 sensors, I would say no it's not a result of owners checking them.
you can't put the 02 in too far due to the design, if it touchs the pre-cat then it's either supposed to or it's a bad design. however if vibrations isa contributingfactor, the 02 contacting with the pre-car certainly wouldn't help.
Something that has been running around my head. The pre-cats are only held in by pressure. This could then mean that they are moving (even very slightly) in a vertical direction thus hitting the O2 and causing additional damage from the vibration.
Quote from: "maxum"Well what a day.
Those old precats didnt give up with out a fight i can tell you,
looking at my battel scars my right hand thum and all 4 fingers have a total 8 cuts one which messures 1 inch slice and one large bruise to my fore arm and my left hand just one small cut but 3 bruises to the arm,
with that and 2 sheared mainifold studs from heathstimpson, and im sure Mark and some of you other guys must be licking your own wounds today but job well done.
Yes I didn't notice on the day but my fingers have 1" slice cuts across them s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Must have been the precat material. All adds to the fun eh s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I don't have any cuts at all, seems there is some advantage to being really slow s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Anyway, I got a CEL (tracked down to an O2 sensor wire that had come loose.
Reset the ECU (cleaned the MAF aswell) and i'm suprised by the difference, most fun s:D :D s:D
I do have some doubt as to whether or not pulling fuses resets the ECU or not though - I pulled all 3 i could find that related to the ECU and the CEL wasn't cleared (stereo was though). Pull the battery for 5 mins and it's sorted.
Quote from: "Bongo"I pulled all 3 i could find that related to the ECU and the CEL wasn't cleared (stereo was though). Pull the battery for 5 mins and it's sorted.
I've never trusted myself to be able to find the right fuse, save have always gone with the battery route. Glad it sorted it for you.
Could someone tell me what the torque setting was used for the manifold to engine please.... s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "dimwit"Could someone tell me what the torque setting was used for the manifold to engine please.... s:?: :?: s:?:
When I swopped mine out on the many occasions that called for it, I didn't torque them down as such, just did them tight. As both the nuts and studs seem potentially fragile, I didn't want to use too much force.
Quote from: "phil4"Quote from: "Bongo"I pulled all 3 i could find that related to the ECU and the CEL wasn't cleared (stereo was though). Pull the battery for 5 mins and it's sorted.
I've never trusted myself to be able to find the right fuse, save have always gone with the battery route. Glad it sorted it for you.
I just yoinked all 3 that said ECU on the diagrams.
All i can say after reseting the ECU is " s:D :D s:D ", feels so much better now s:) :) s:)
Instead of the fuses, would whipping out all the plugs from the ECU give the same effect?
Just mentioned it as I have got access to the ECU for when the UNICHIP arrives.
Simon
Yes for about 10minutes
Cool, I'll give that a shot tomorrow. After cleaning my MAF!
Simon
I seen to be getting a whistling air flow sort of noise when accelerating since the decat. Is this normal or could it possibly be a small leak somewhere s:?: :?: s:?:
it's not impossible, best bet is to pull the throttel cable from teh engine bay and see if you can track it down.
Quote from: "markiii"it's not impossible, best bet is to pull the throttel cable from the engine bay and see if you can track it down.
Thats what I intended to do tomorrow in daylight.
Wait until everythings cold so you dont burn yourself, and hire a couple of willing hands to block the exhaust tip for a second. Any leaks should soon make themselves known.
If you can hear a constant whistle, its most likely the cat to manifold joint, but if you hear a pulsed sound, check the manifold to head joint. A short length of garden hose is very useful for this. Held to your ear and probed around the various joints will soon track down the leak...
Dont forget to check the silencer to cat joint as well, although you wont have unbolted it, it would have been flexed beyond what is normal for the car, and this may have disturbed it slightly.
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Well its the first time i have mangaed to drive my car since the precat gutting day, i fitted the new inlet pipe that mark Supplied and also disconnect the battery to reset the ECU. and also found that cursing spanner that i lost larst weekend ( it didnt fall out up the A1 ) i could here it slidding about today as i went around corners. anyway removed both rear light a retrived it
Well what can i say its like driveing a new car its great, and the inlet pipe dose give it that littel bit extra grutt
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
If there is any chance of another pre-cat gutting meet then please count me in.
Thanks
Me too!
And me! s:D :D s:D
Ooooh, you can count me in too - the warranty ran out on tuesday!
Quote from: "Mr 2"Ooooh, you can count me in too - the warranty ran out on tuesday!
sod the warranty, it's just not worth the hassle if it does go wrong, IMHO
Quote from: "kanujunkie"Quote from: "Mr 2"Ooooh, you can count me in too - the warranty ran out on tuesday!
sod the warranty, it's just not worth the hassle if it does go wrong, IMHO
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I know! It was a feeble excuse s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
It's not something that has particularly worried me because from what I've seen/read most cars that have engine failure due to pre-cat failure seem to be pre 2002 cars. However the risk is still there, so out they shall come...
...so another pre-cat gutting meet would be ace s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
hhhhmmmmmm, where to meet though, were, all over the shop????
I could do with mine comming out as well!
Couldn't make the last one s:( :( s:(
Simon
I would also love to gut mine, if there's any chance of a meet anywhere in the more northerly part of the country... I intend to do it myself whatever come the summer, but it would be most reassuring to have other people present who would hopefully have more idea than me what to do if a bolt shears or something s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
so whats central for all
we have people in
Kanujunkie - Redhill, Surrey
lordretsudo - Stockton on Tees
SimonC_Here - Oxford
Mr 2 - Kings Lynn, Norfolk
Simon - Cardiff
Comer - Herts
Steve Warbs - Sutton Coldfield
Richbay - Herts
Have i missed any?
I'm going to do mine (hopefully before the Bruntingthorpe meet on the 1st May) and it would be good to do it as a group effort
am i adding you on the would like to list then Steve????
yes please, if it's going to happen fairly quickly
count me in too im in herts so welwyn is fine for me
Quote from: "richbay"count me in too I'm in herts so welwyn is fine for me
I don't think that this has been arranged for Welwyn...this is a resurrected old post where the last pre-cat gutting meet was at Welwyn...unless Mark is going for this again!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
good point liz......
Quote from: "Liz"Quote from: "richbay"count me in too I'm in herts so welwyn is fine for me
I don't think that this has been arranged for Welwyn...this is a resurrected old post where the last pre-cat gutting meet was at Welwyn...unless Mark is going for this again!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
ooooohhh now there's an idea, Maaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrkkkkkk??????
And, just to add a bit of info to the general database, we've lost three Spyders in April '04 alone due to precat decay. One car went through the classic scenario of failing due to precat damage, getting a rebuild and new main cat (but not a new manifold) and so the precats took the new motor out straightaway.
If you own a Spyder, regardless of your warranty coverage you really need to get those time bombs off of your engine as quickly as you can. Glad to see you folks are diligent in this regard and helping one another out. You've inspired the first-ever U.S. cat-gutting party already.
has anything been arranged for this as I would like to come.
Though I'm new around here, I'd come over from Dublin for help getting those infernal precats out of my new (to me) chariot.
Count me in.
sorry guys, i think people have been caught up in life, nothing was arranged, would somebody like to volunteer there driveway and a date and we'll get this done?
guys, since we have such large numbers I'm happy to volunteer again.
I need to check teh diary for availability though so please bear with me.
on behalf of all interested thanx Mark, much appreciated especially as you know how to do it s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "markiii"guys, since we have such large numbers I'm happy to volunteer again.
I need to check the diary for availability though so please bear with me.
The footy season is almost over so just say the day and I'll be there if I still have a '2. Thanks.
Quote from: "southerneditor"You've inspired the first-ever U.S. cat-gutting party already.
Illegal in some states, surely? From what I remember of the pre-cats on the Nissan anyway.
And back on topic - if this does happen, I wouldn't mind popping along as well s:) :) s:)
cheers mark, as im getting a air inlet pipe in the group buy to perhaps we can combine the two events, and i can collect/fit the inlet pipe the same time i gut the moggie
Just to reitterate, I would love to be rid of my pre cats. After the last time they got rid of themselves throught the exhaust pipe. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Simon
Just out of curiosity, what are the hydrocarbon and CO limits for the MOT? I ask because my car is registered in Ireland and will have to pass the Irish NCT some time after I gut the pre-cats. For the NCT the limits are:
Low idle: CO 0.5%, HC 0ppm
High idle: CO 0.3%, HC 200ppm
Is that more or less strict than the MOT? I'd hate to take the pre-cats out and then have to buy a new manifold to pass the NCT. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
not sure, but since teh celica would presumeably pass? and it has no precats and teh same engine I wouldn't expect an issue.
A search for "MOT Passed" turned up this thread
MOT passed (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6821&highlight=mot+passed)
Of course, I knew that a few people had removed pre-cats and gone through the MOT, including mph, qho has not cats or pre-cats (but did have to fiddle with Unichip? settings to get through the MOT)
Quote from: "filcee"A search for "MOT Passed" turned up this thread
MOT passed (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6821&highlight=mot+passed)
I know that people have passed the MOT. My question is: is the MOT more or less strict than the NCT limits I posted above?
Looking at that thread, I must say that people had very low emissions
after gutting the pre-cats. My emissions are higher than those posted and I still have my pre-cats. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Precats don't affect emissions once the engine (and main cat) is warm. They reduce emissions by starting to work very quickly after the car is started, cause it takes some time for the main cat to start operating.
I'm no expert on MOTs, but this site seems to have a lot of detail about the UK test:
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_730.htm
This seems to be the information about the NCT in Ireland:
http://www.mcnamarasltd.com/main/NCT.php3
I haven't checked to see which is the most stringent wrt emissions. My guess would be that the UK and Ireland have implemented EC-led legislation, therefore they are both the same.
<EDIT>
This site contains some values for the UK:
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lagoon/9819/mot.html
So that serves me right for not checking properly before posting! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
On this basis, it would appear that the NCT is more stringent than the MOT.
It also seems to be the case that many of the sites referring to the UK MOT test do not include these values, but make constant references to 'the manual', which suggests that these limits will be subject to change in the future.
</EDIT>
Mark, if you have room for one more then i'd be interested, depending on when it's going to happen (busy month s:( :( s:( ).
If you have room for another...i'd be very grateful! s:) :) s:)
my pre cats went a few months ago, had a new main cat, rebuild etc, but no new manifold, even though i pointed out it should really be having one. I've had it back for 8 weeks, and it's munched it's way through a whopping 5 litres of oil s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Just on my way too see mr T!!
Quote from: "doony"If you have room for another...i'd be very grateful! s:) :) s:)
my pre cats went a few months ago, had a new main cat, rebuild etc, but no new manifold, even though i pointed out it should really be having one. I've had it back for 8 weeks, and it's munched it's way through a whopping 5 litres of oil s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Just on my way too see mr T!!
Am I missing something? do you have any cats left to gut?
hehe ye, it was all fixed and had new pre cats installed with the new main cat, it's drives fine, all the power is there, it's just chomping it's way through oil
Quote from: "markiii"guys, since we have such large numbers I'm happy to volunteer again.
I need to check the diary for availability though so please bear with me.
any news on dates Mark?
right I reckon it's going to be first or 2nd weekend in June and I'm going to go for a saturday this time. I'll update with exact details tonight.
Tempting, even though mine still has just under 2 years of warranty.
What is the view on the increased noise after the pre-cats have been removed?
I've checked all the posts, and PM'd Grant to ask his opinion. I'm interested to know what other people's views are on this.
Jason
From my point of view the increased noise is fantastic, but probably something to do with the H & S as well, I get popping noises and a lovely low growl. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "markiii"right I reckon it's going to be first or 2nd weekend in June and I'm going to go for a saturday this time. I'll update with exact details tonight.
please make it the second weekend s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: please make it the second s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Quote from: "Liz"I get popping noises and a lovely low growl. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I get those with my pre-cats still in place.. I do hope I get more without them s;) ;) s;) (Used to like that in my R16 - no CAT at all s;) ;) s;) )
Right I've just read through every page of this thread. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: From what I can gather the post 03 cars have more bolts/different manifold design? s:? :? s:? I have to say I am rather confused. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
I am interested in finally doing this, and would like to be pencil'd in for the gutting meet.. But would someone mind doing a bullet point list of what needs doing – all the info is spread across seven pages!
From what I can gather...
1. Penetrating fluid on the manifold bolts. Do the newer cars have more?
2. Penetrating fluid on the O2 sensors?
3. Remove heat shield prior to meet? O2 sensors out first?
Help here would be great, and Mark, if there's room for one more I'll probably be there.
Cheers!
OK this is confiemd for the 11th June
I will split the topic an update in a sec.
Quote from: "Liz"From my point of view the increased noise is fantastic, but probably something to do with the H & S as well, I get popping noises and a lovely low growl. s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Thanks Liz
I'm quite happy for extra growl - mine's actually quite growly now.
It's the increased boominess and drone at cruising speeds that would ruin it for me - so I would like to know if this is a common result.
Jason
No its the lower revs where you really get the joy of it s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: . I may pop along to the gutting meet and you can have a ride out and listen if you like?
Quote from: "Liz"No its the lower revs where you really get the joy of it s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: . I may pop along to the gutting meet and you can have a ride out and listen if you like?
Thanks Liz
I've bit the bullet and will be attending to have the things out.
Jason
sat 11th june please count me in
you may want to atke a look m http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... 6113#86113 (http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=86113#86113) m
Hi Guys, any room for another? I'm absolutely kacking myself reading these threads. I've got an 00 reg, it's only done 20K, but I'm well out of warranty.
I did take out a 3 year warranty from the garage I bought it from, but I suppose that's not worth the paper it's written on!
GET THEM OUT, the Pre cats I mean, obviously. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Leggy,
I believe this one is full, have a look at Markiii's link in the above post