MR2 Roadster Owners Club

The Workshop => Maintenance, Problems & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: cptspaulding on January 3, 2017, 02:36

Title: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 3, 2017, 02:36
Just had the 2zz engine swap done & I knew I wasn't getting great mpg. Took until my 3rd or 4th fill up to be confident I could calculate a reasonably accurate mpg figure.

23 mpg.

& that wasn't using lift at all.

I have one fault code, P0135, which is the heater circuit on one of the sensors so that shouldn't have any affect.

The car appears to be running really sweet with no misfires or hesitation. Any thoughts where I should start looking?


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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: jonbill on January 3, 2017, 08:58
I know nothing about 2zzs, but if you're sure there isn't a leak somewhere I'd be looking at the AFR data. Maybe fit a wideband gauge.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: phaeton on January 3, 2017, 11:41
Surely if one of the heater circuits is not working then effectively the sensor isn't working so the ECU will use default mapping, which could well be more fuel than you need, what colour is the exhaust pipe & plugs?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 3, 2017, 11:51
Certainly in the 1zz, the heater circuit is only in use for the first minute or 2 from cold, so the car can run entirely unaffected even if all 3 heater circuits are dud.
I would imagine the same is true on the 2zz but I could try a known working sensor on that.
https://vimeo.com/197883884
I also have this little bit hunting on the tachometer when up to temp. Could this point to an leak on the exhaust side?

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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: normanh on January 3, 2017, 18:05
Heavy Right Foot ? -sorry it has to be said!

Norman
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: beavisrules on January 3, 2017, 19:04
If it sees no heater, surely it will discard that sensors data assuming it's broke.
I know in theory the sensor section may still be good, but would the car in error state use it?.

Also are your maf & iacv clean?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: theredone on January 3, 2017, 19:06
Quote from: "normanh"Heavy Right Foot ? -sorry it has to be said!

Norman

not at all - he`s on a diet   s:D :D s:D
Title: Re: RE: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: shnazzle on January 3, 2017, 20:34
Quote from: "cptspaulding"Certainly in the 1zz, the heater circuit is only in use for the first minute or 2 from cold, so the car can run entirely unaffected even if all 3 heater circuits are dud.
I would imagine the same is true on the 2zz but I could try a known working sensor on that.
https://vimeo.com/197883884
I also have this little bit hunting on the tachometer when up to temp. Could this point to an leak on the exhaust side?

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Gummed up IAC?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: JoeCool on January 4, 2017, 01:36
Quote from: "normanh"Heavy Right Foot ? -sorry it has to be said!

Norman
I'm err.... not very nice to my 2ZZ MR2.... to be honest I bet it wishes it had never been born. 30 Mpg everywhere. It cruises at 4,500 rpm on the Autobahn, chasing M3's.... - 30Mpg.

Something ain't right. Got to be fuelling rich. Even with the short ratio box and wide sticky tyres you should be able to make 30Mpg for normal/fast road driving.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: shnazzle on January 4, 2017, 08:59
And another thing. Once again I think the mr2 is more sensitive to o2 sensors than you think. The heater circuit being broken on one sensor had caused lumpy running on my car and Helen's every time.

As I type this I'm sitting in the car with a lumpy idle after my drive to work and the heater circuit of bank 1 sensor 1 gone.

Had this each time the o2 sensor went.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 4, 2017, 11:30
Yh. I'll swap in a known O2 sensor to start with.
What's an IAC?

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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: ChrisGB on January 4, 2017, 11:53
Idle air control valve. I'd try a new O2 sensor first. Once you know that's OK, try other things if fuel economy doesn't improve.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Ardent on January 4, 2017, 12:31
Cpt.
Proper 2zz ecu or 3rd party? Mapping issue?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: PhilMC on January 4, 2017, 13:00
Quote from: "Ardent"Cpt.
Proper 2zz ecu or 3rd party? Mapping issue?
Stewart is on a 2zz ecu, so stock Celica map.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 4, 2017, 14:40
Are the 2zz O2 sensors the same as the 1zz sensors.

Thought I best check before I order. (this one IIRC? (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Automotive/Denso-DOX-0204-NPS-DOX-0204-Lambda-Probe/B00AJUJUGG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1483540732&sr=8-2&keywords=0204))

Also since this is into a custom pipe of the exhuast I was considering a bit of instant gasket when fitting to ensure (if there is a leak) that any leak is not at the sensor. Any reason not to?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Essex2Visuvesi on January 4, 2017, 15:17
I remember reading somewhere about not using any kind of sealer on the sensors as it can contaminate them
I could be talking complete rubbish tho
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Liberty mkiii on January 4, 2017, 15:22
How long is your average drive?
The reason I bring this up is that I have a 6 mile commute and the car has barely warmed up by the end of the drive.  Fuel economy is bad in this scenario

01' MR2 K20 swap, crazy mods to come
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Carolyn on January 4, 2017, 19:19
Quote from: "cptspaulding"Are the 2zz O2 sensors the same as the 1zz sensors.

Thought I best check before I order. (this one IIRC? (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Automotive/Denso-DOX-0204-NPS-DOX-0204-Lambda-Probe/B00AJUJUGG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1483540732&sr=8-2&keywords=0204))

Also since this is into a custom pipe of the exhuast I was considering a bit of instant gasket when fitting to ensure (if there is a leak) that any leak is not at the sensor. Any reason not to?

Can't see instant gasket surviving the heat.  I'd go for an annealed copper washer. (Heat it up with a torch and let it cool).
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: ChrisGB on January 4, 2017, 20:22
I'm pretty sure the last two Denso sensors I bought had crush washers on them as supplied. The highest temperature instant gasket material would never cope with exhaust manifold temperatures.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: shnazzle on January 4, 2017, 20:23
The densos certainly do
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 6, 2017, 13:19
So...

Ordered & fitted new Denso O2 sensor. Started the car & checked the codes before resetting. Oddly it showed P0125 & P0135 before I reset it (P0125 hadn't been there before).

Reset with the OBD reader, drove for 10 minutes & P0135 came on again!! Rather than try another sensor in the car I took the new sensor out, put it into Patsy's 1zz MR2 & drove that for 30 minutes. No eml, & no codes on her car with this sensor.

Edit - Just drove it with the sensor disconnected & only threw up P0135. Could it be that the system isn't reading that sensor at all?

Also can someone confirm that the O2 sensors are the same for both 1zz & 2zz? (although the pre cat on 2zz has only one).
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: PhilMC on January 6, 2017, 14:44
If someone can confirm what pins on the plug going into the ecu are for this O2 sensor you could at least do a continuity check to make sure the wiring isn't at fault?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Huambo81a on January 6, 2017, 15:51
I have a 2zz with a tuned Apexi map, and i get 30mpg with the odd trip into lift here and there.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Alex Knight on January 7, 2017, 19:24
Duff heater circuit is causing this, despite the rest of the sensor working.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 7, 2017, 19:52
The sensor is good, Alex. I've checked it. Now run 3 sensors; one brand new, one out of another 2 & still P0135 appears. Rechecked 2 of those sensors in a 1zz & both are fine.
So I suspect that my ECU isn't reading the heater sensor circuit. & If that hasn't been connected correctly on the loom, then it's not a massive stretch of the imagination to think that the sensor circuit itself isn't connected either.
Going back to the swap chap prob later this week to sort my overfilling & another fault.

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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cabbydave on January 7, 2017, 19:54
Check the wiring on the tps as well
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cabbydave on January 7, 2017, 19:55
Check the wiring on the tps as well
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 7, 2017, 19:59
Tps = Temperature sensor or throttle position sensor?

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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: PhilMC on January 7, 2017, 20:04
Is that the two wires that should have been swapped on the throttle position sensor connector Dave?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cabbydave on January 7, 2017, 20:56
Yes mate
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Alex Knight on January 8, 2017, 13:17
Quote from: "cptspaulding"So I suspect that my ECU isn't reading the heater sensor circuit. & If that hasn't been connected correctly on the loom, then it's not a massive stretch of the imagination to think that the sensor circuit itself isn't connected either.
Going back to the swap chap prob later this week to sort my overfilling & another fault.

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Sounds to me like the wiring isn't correct. You'll have to run a continuity test at the ECU plug on the primary 02 circuit.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor? - FIXED
Post by: cptspaulding on January 25, 2017, 08:51
All fixed now!!!

It would appear that the chap who did the loom, connected the socket at the RHS (bank 2?) of the mani into the loom instead of the one at the gearbox side.

Drive up from Liverpool last night gave me 35mpg & no EMLs. Lift now also working as it should after snapped lift bolt replaced.

It's not particularly relaxing cruising at 4500rpm at 80mph on the motorway so as it's my daily driver I'll be getting the longer 6th put in once I have some spare cash for that.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor? - FIXED
Post by: phaeton on January 25, 2017, 09:03
Quote from: "cptspaulding"All fixed now!!!
Good to hear
Quote from: "cptspaulding"It's not particularly relaxing cruising at 4500rpm at 80mph on the motorway
Easy solution, drive at 60mph, save more fuel & save the excessive speed for the track.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor? - FIXED
Post by: brettfield999 on January 25, 2017, 09:26
Quote from: "phaeton"
Easy solution, drive at 60mph, save more fuel & save the excessive speed for the track.[/quote]

Or 6 speed 1ZZ gearbox like me!  It does drop out of lift but 2800-3000 rpm on the motorway and averaged 40-44MPG on a European trip  s:D :D s:D
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: JoeCool on January 26, 2017, 14:41
Nah, the 1zz gearbox kills these. You need the short ratios, it's just 6th that's stupid.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Wabbitkilla on January 26, 2017, 15:08
Quote from: "JoeCool"Nah, the 1zz gearbox kills these. You need the short ratios, it's just 6th that's stupid.

This is true, no point having a 2zz if you have a 1zz gearbox.
See this is what gets me, you want more performance and then complain about the more performance using more fuel to get that performance.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: MR TWO on January 26, 2017, 16:37
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"See this is what gets me, you want more performance and then complain about the more performance using more fuel to get that performance.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Not all of us though.  Fuel economy in a sporty go kart? You having a laugh or what?
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cptspaulding on January 26, 2017, 17:16
If folks are doing a 2zz swap for a track or weekend car there's little point in spending the money to swap over the 6th.

If on the other hand it's a daily driver (like mine) then it's bloody annoying doing 4500rpm on what ought to be a cruise. Then it's worth the extra to swap to the longer 6th.

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Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: cabbydave on January 26, 2017, 18:57
Iwouldn't have thought you would get into top on the track so it could be useful to drive there and back. It isn't hard to put a longer 6th in the box you just need the puller, I bought mine from the satates I do have a longer 6th gear here if you ever need one
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: JoeCool on January 26, 2017, 20:17
Yeah, Fifth-and a-half from the corolla box is useless - I'm convinced that the ONLY reason it is how it is is to squeeze about 5mph more from the Corolla T-Sport, because Toyota were engaged in a Top-Trumps top speed battle with the Civic type R. That explains why the Celica 6th is sensible - it wasn't engaged in the hot hatch market. Even on the Nurburgring if you're properly on it 5th is all you need, good well out to 130Mph. The only straight long enough to go faster is uphill enough that even the short 6th loses you speed.

I do want a longer 6th, I'm doing another European jaunt in April, but I don't want to shell out for a gearbox rebuild just for that. I'm the kind of person that if I tried to do it in my shed, I'd end up with an explosion of gearbox bits and no hope.
Title: Re: 2zz - why is my mpg so poor?
Post by: Alex Knight on January 30, 2017, 21:20
Quote from: "JoeCool"Yeah, Fifth-and a-half from the corolla box is useless - I'm convinced that the ONLY reason it is how it is is to squeeze about 5mph more from the Corolla T-Sport, because Toyota were engaged in a Top-Trumps top speed battle with the Civic type R. That explains why the Celica 6th is sensible - it wasn't engaged in the hot hatch market. Even on the Nurburgring if you're properly on it 5th is all you need, good well out to 130Mph. The only straight long enough to go faster is uphill enough that even the short 6th loses you speed.

I do want a longer 6th, I'm doing another European jaunt in April, but I don't want to shell out for a gearbox rebuild just for that. I'm the kind of person that if I tried to do it in my shed, I'd end up with an explosion of gearbox bits and no hope.

Seconded entirely. 5th gear is absolutely all you'd need from an N/A 2ZZ on any track. FYI I managed an indicated 135MPH in 5th with maybe a couple of hundred RPM to go.
A longer 6th would be great for driving to and from faraway trackdays though  s:) :) s:)