My next project; intake comparisons.
I ran into a brick wall with the exhaust side simply because it's too expensive and time consuming s:) :) s:)
So the plan is to take my car and in one day in quick succession do some 3rd gear WOT runs with;
1) full stock intake
2) stock + k&n panel
3) stock + markiii pipe
4) stock + k&n + markiii
5) cone filter setup with stock MAF holder
I will do a few runs of each to get a decent average of the max MAF readings and I'll log it on the emanage to get clean readings.
Then pop the graphs in excel and share.
Should be fun. And should clear up whether anybody should bother with anything other than stock
Only extra parameter is that I'm running the emanage blue. But it won't change the comparison
This is the cone intake. Using stock MAF tube and a 45deg silicon hose with 0.5cm wall thickness to stop some heat.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170223/308728f45884061491e390de7148ded8.jpg)
Snazzle, what are your predictions?
Quote from: "MR TWO"Snazzle, what are your predictions?
I wouldn't dare make any.
But there will be differences.
What will be most interesting to me, in all honesty, is not the max reading but where the max reading sits vs rpm.
Possibly include a MAF riser in the future?
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "MR TWO"Snazzle, what are your predictions?
I wouldn't dare make any.
But there will be differences.
What will be most interesting to me, in all honesty, is not the max reading but where the max reading sits vs rpm.
It will be interesting to find out whether the acclaimed "mods" do actually improve things and by how much. An Mr2 roadster Myth busters!
Quote from: "MR TWO"Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "MR TWO"Snazzle, what are your predictions?
I wouldn't dare make any.
But there will be differences.
What will be most interesting to me, in all honesty, is not the max reading but where the max reading sits vs rpm.
It will be interesting to find out whether the acclaimed "mods" do actually improve things and by how much. An Mr2 roadster Myth busters!
Indeed! That's the poibt. And fun for me
Quote from: "mulaz"Possibly include a MAF riser in the future?
That has nothing to do with the actual amount of air that flows s:) :) s:)
Excellent idea, look forward to seeing your results.
Isn't your engine mapped specifically for the markiii pipe (can't remember)? If so might that influence the outcome?
Well the logic I'm applying is that mine is tuned to suck more air in. So if anything, it'll make differences more visible.
In theory I should see a slower buildup to max MAF signal with full stock, and potentially a lower top figure.
And a faster climb to a higher top. MAF figure with the cone.
I'm hoping to exclude heat soak etc as much as possible by placing the cone behind the battery.
Just be careful with heatsoak if you're doing quite a few runs.
I'd suggest you do the same number of runs with each setup, and make sure you allow a good rest period between setups for more accurate data.
Having just had a 4hr long dyno mapping session a week or so ago on the 2zz I can confirm that the water temps and intake temps were very very consistent, and heatsoak wasn't massive with the setup I'm using.
(side scoops, markiii pipe, standard airbox and Pipercross panel filter)
Quote from: "shnazzle"My next project; intake comparisons.
I ran into a brick wall with the exhaust side simply because it's too expensive and time consuming s:) :) s:)
So the plan is to take my car and in one day in quick succession do some 3rd gear WOT runs with;
1) full stock intake
2) stock + k&n panel
3) stock + markiii pipe
4) stock + k&n + markiii
5) cone filter setup with stock MAF holder
I will do a few runs of each to get a decent average of the max MAF readings and I'll log it on the emanage to get clean readings.
Then pop the graphs in excel and share.
Should be fun. And should clear up whether anybody should bother with anything other than stock
Only extra parameter is that I'm running the emanage blue. But it won't change the comparison
Configurations 1-4 will give valid comparisons, but configuration 5 has the potential to alter the MAF calibration due to the different air path. Oddly, if configuration 5 shows less airflow relative to the air going in, the engine may run a bit lean, which, with a stock ECU, could increase power.
Interested to see the results of this as I've recently fitted a K&N panel when I serviced the car. Markiii pipe would be next mod once subframe etc. are done.
Updated first post with pic of the cone setup.
When I had the Apexi intake and bored TB I used to nearly max out the MAF on WOT
Don't suppose you remember what the max MAF value was? Did you read it in voltage or "airflow"? To be honest I'm not even sure what the Torque Pro figure is
Did some tests today to start this off and I think I need to do them again s:) :) s:)
I could not get my crappy OBD2 reader working today, so I have no intake temps, rpms, etc to match unfortunately. Which means only half the data s:( :( s:(
So I'm afraid it's on hold until I can get a proper OBD2 dongle/cable. I'm sick of these cheap ebay ones as I'm on my 3rd one, so time to save for a nice one or proper setup.
I don't know how the below results translate to actual usable power of course, and especially as MAF voltages measure air MASS, not air flow. And this is very environment-dependent.
This is why I did the tests all within a small timescale.
Numbers
Max voltages seen (i.e. greatest mass):
- K&N panel + markiii pipe: 4.53v
- OEM panel + markiii pipe: 4.6v
- Cone filter: 3.92v
Well, ain't that just a kick in the goonies you'd think. Why the hell has the cone under-performed in comparison to the panels by over 0.6v? That's a properly massive difference.
My only logic goes back to mass. Less restriction (cone) = less pressure = less mass, but more flow.
Seat of pants review,
Remember, I'm on emanage blue piggyback ECU. So results will be different for stock. That wasn't the point of this test.
- K&N panel + markiii pipe: My usual setup. No flat spots, and no bumpiness toodling around town. Very nice drive
- OEM panel + markiii pipe: I did this second, the bumpiness returned pulling out of my estate. No noticeable difference in "pull" though. Just settled the cruising a bit. But, the bumpiness wasn't as bad as before I got my K&N panel. this might be due to changes in my fuel trims due to me adding the open loop trickery to the emanage. So, I think if I tweaked airflow a bit on the emanages low-rpm dials, I'd be ok and not notice anything now.
- cone: Aside from the obvious lovely noise, there was an absolute increase in the urgency of the throttle. When I mash my foot there's a sudden "bump", the engine bounces a bit with the sudden rush of air, settles quickly and then pulls noticeably harder through the rpm range.
Believe it or not I stuck to speed limits to do these tests, as I value my license and life. So, I also haven't tested it to the limiter. Managed to get to 6k-ish before having to drop off the throttle.
Conclusion
Not sure yet. Open to discussion based on the above. But I'm keeping the cone on for now as the power is much much more immediate.
Did you do any kind of Reset on the ECu/Emanage between changes?
there's cones and there're cones.
I used to get 4.98V with the bored throttle body and Apexi intake.
Quote from: "Essex2Visuvesi"Did you do any kind of Reset on the ECu/Emanage between changes?
Only after the cone, as I had to remove the battery to install it. But, I'm not sure I had it disconnected long enough to clear the tables. Can't confirm as no OBD2... s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"there's cones and there're cones.
I used to get 4.98V with the bored throttle body and Apexi intake.
I think this is it to be honest. I'll should have another strangely familiar red intake soon to see what a "good" intake does.
Nigel also said that the apexi had the highest flow of all.
So, so far there are 2 immediate interesting points:
- A panel filter (even an expensive one) does sweet f-all. We already knew this though. It might help flow and throttle response, but it will not touch how much air flows in max. There was marginally more noise.
- A cheap 12 quid cone filter does not an open intake make! As you said Nic; there's cones and there's cones. Thoroughly proven by this.
Quote from: "shnazzle"- A panel filter (even an expensive one) does sweet f-all. We already knew this though. It might help flow and throttle response, but it will not touch how much air flows in max. There was marginally more noise.
FAKE NEWS!!! s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
You keep trying to smear my TRD filter.... I think you're jealous...
haha sorry mate. Themz figures don't lie s;) ;) s;)
What I really need is the RPM ranges to go with the MAF voltages. So I'll have to redo the lot. Which is great. I wish the emanage would log rpm. I have no idea why it doesn't.
the sound:
m https://youtu.be/LMNelq33uXk (https://youtu.be/LMNelq33uXk) m
Would it be worth adding another option to test out. This being to simply remove the standard elbow in the stock intake and leave the mkiii pipe off as well so the air can simply enter directly into the air box?
I ran that setup for a while. It's an easy way to get a bit of induction roar. I noticed no change in anything.
I totally forgot to do the markiii pipe tests when the stock intake was still in. Now I've ripped it all out for the cone.
Can't do any tests while I have no obd2 anyway.
If I find time and when I get a new obd2 I will do it all over again. Also noticed that obd2 shows cfm. So that'd be good to have as a measurement as well to translate maf voltage to mass
Hmm...just ran the test with the Hurricane intake and maxbore throttle body (I know, this is no longer scientific s:) :) s:) ) and I got a max value of 3.98v. A bit confused to be honest.
Different day though.
higher ambient temps today possibly?
I suspect you will only see gains with this setup if you are using a pretty highly tuned engine, unfortunately I suspect on anything else it may well reduce torque, although probably only slightly.
If you watch the Engineering Explained or Mighty Car Mods videos, anything that helps top end power usually hurts low power and vice versa. I suspect this means that if you are putting high flow intake stuff onto a largely standard engine you will only get the downside because you never flow enough air to get the benefits.
I am thinking that the only bolt on items worth going for on an engine that won't be revving up to or well past 7,500rpm are (in order of benefit):
ECU
High flow cat (PPE being best)
Cat back exhaust
Stage 1 cam
Zero manifold
markiii pipe??
If you rebuild the bottom end and valve gear for high revs you can add:
Stage 2 cam
Higher compression ratio
Bigger valves?
Bored throttle body
Intake upgrade
This will be a powerful motor but probably with poor low end torque.
Yeah I have no interest in creating a 1zz version of a 2zz. I want low down torque.
Nigel's once made a setup that was "low" on HP but had a great torque curve. That's my preference
The way it is now makes me a happy camper s:) :) s:)
Also, that MAF tube isn't identical to stock, from memory. Main thing is how it feels in use and I am guessing that its good. s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "loadswine"Also, that MAF tube isn't identical to stock, from memory. Main thing is how it feels in use and I am guessing that its good. s;) ;) s;)
Spot on! It feels brilliant. And sounds brilliant.
As Nic told me today; I need to stop over-analysing things. But, I can't help find this all very interesting s:D :D s:D The effect of this, that and the other thing on the numbers. I'm a numbers kind of guy
As for the MAF tube, yes indeed it is different. But what I found striking was that the hurricane figures were similar to the numbers of my DIY eBay cone setup. So, the voltage figures don't tell the full tale, that's for sure.
3.98 on the Hurricane and 3.92 on the ebay cone. When the stock and K&N panels in with markiii pipe do 4.6ish volt.
Odd. I'd love someone to explain it
Temperature of the intake air may have a bearing on things too. I would expect the cone to have a higher temperature, than that of the Hurricane, which, on the move, is pretty close to ambient.
Remember that the stock maf tube has veining which causes air flow to be squeezed into the maf ergo higher velocity but lower volume.
The Hurricane has no veining so air flow will record less but volume will be higher due to the lack of restriction.
Which is actually ok with a piggyback or PFC ECU as you can map accordingly
If the Hurricane is causing the maf to record a different air mass to the standard tube for the same actual flow, wouldn't it be essential to remap the ECU in order to get the engine running properly?
My ebay cone was using the stock maf with vanes. But the distance from maf to TB is much shorter.
Too many variables.
Bear in mind I do have the emanage adding 7-11% air depending on area.
This seems to work best. Although my starts are a bit rough since the Hurricane and TB.
Isn't it just the simple concept of big opening/low pressure vs small opening/high pressure?
With cone/Hurricane the pressure is lower. Less mass
Less voltage?
Dunno.
Get it mapped
But as you say, if it is lower pressure it should be moving faster so the mass should be the same. The fact that the engine is running OK strongly suggests that the maf itself is seeing the same amount of mass flow with all the different options at any given time, if it wasn't the mixture would be wrong wouldn't it?
Can you monitor intake air temperature to see if that is having an effect?
If you are getting less mass and therefore less voltage (and you are definitely at WOT for all options) that must equate to less power output. Either because the air is hotter or the flow is lower?
The air must be cooler. There's no other way really. There is no way the hurricane with ducting straight to the side vent and the filter enclosed in an aluminium case runs the air hotter than an open cone sitting behind the battery of the airbox sitting in the hot engine bay.
Went for a spin with Helen yesterday and she confirmed the noticeable increase in power, so it's there.
I did tweak the map for the hurricane/throttle body. It was idling at like 1300rpm when warm and had a rough as f00k start.
Also, I tried advancing the timing a bit a while back, higher in the rpm range. But this made no difference. If anything power fell a bit flat.
Yesterday I upped it again from about 2.5k rpm through 4.5k and it increased pull. I did the same on Stew's car and the same effect was there. His was a bit more dramatic as he can confirm. So I think the hurricane allows the engine to breathe better, earlier on, and through the high rpm, if the exhaust supports this.
Stew's car kept pulling where mine slowed a bit over 5.5k-ish. I reckon that's his aftermarket manifold vs my gutted stock.
I used to get a bit of fuel smell as well and that's completely gone. So I can probably up the fueling a bit. Or, reduce the airflow adjustment map. Stop pretending more air is coming in, because more air is actually coming in!
The gains aren't worth me spending 400 quid on a remap for the emanage in my opinion. But I reckon there's a good bit of power to be gained from a standalone fuel management and wideband setup.
When you mention a noticeable increase in power, do you mean an increase that is solely attributable to the Hurricane?
No. I dare say it's mostly the TB
OBD2 working and I can confirm that the hurricane does indeed pretty much run in the air at ambient temperature to a few degrees over. Very nice! 9 degees outside and on the dual carriageway I was seeing 10 degrees intake temp. Can't compalin about that eh?
When sitting around stationary it'll go up to 30 after a long run. So, there's a fair bit of stationary heat soak. Second any air starts coming into those vents it goes down quickly.
What does it mean? Colder air = denser air = more volume.
The open cone will have suffered the same effects but much worse. So when driving around I'm guessing it'll have been a couple degrees over ambient behind the battery, which is great. But once stationary, it'll be going over 35 degrees or so probably. And that's on a cold day of 9deg celcius.
I remember ages ago the stock airbox, with no mods, got me up to 42deg once on a hot summer day and that was while moving around town in the Lakes.
Any comparison with previous tests unfortunately will need to be redone. Maybe this is a job for a meet. Find cars with various mods and log them separately on the same drive s:) :) s:)
Hi there interesting results. A question really, id previously seen images of this
[attachment=0:355rmq8x] ia0 intake.jpg ia0 [/attachment:355rmq8x]
FGROBS car i think. Logic says that a smooth pipe vs ribbed would flow better right? As im planning to keep stock air box is this a worthwhile mod or mostly eye candy? looks neat tho! also when i had the tb hose of im sure was a sort of gauze/mesh infront of tb. Could this be removed without ill affects?
Your thoughts appreciated.
Jacob
I was wondering about that mesh as well. I can only assume it's to make the airflow as turbulent as possible. Although, I was under the impression that's what piston crown design was for. The VAG engines have swirl flaps for this. Not sure what the 1zz has to be honest. Never looked at the intake manifold.
I've got some documentation on it so will give it a read.
The intake as above is one of the best setups I reckon.
Without the growl of a more open setup that is. This will have great flow, be quiet and be reasonably heat resistant. So if you can't be bothered with the noise, this is the way forward
Speaking of air intake comparisons...
I got my shnazzle Intake fitted yesterday and the sound above 3800rpms really is smile inducing.
The only important Air intake comparison to me is as follows....
Me before: s:) :) s:)
Me now: s:D :D s:D
Thanks a bunch!
Told you! s:) :) s:) It's great isn't it? Hehe. And if it helps, in voltage, it only flowed about 0.07 measured volt on the MAF less than the expensive Hurricane intake I have now. Same kind of weather conditions.
Enjoy!
i thought the mesh was there in case some numpty dropped something in there! shows my knowledge! if you guys rate that intake, Guess what ill be piecing together! Let is know if you have and results about the mesh, Cheers Jacob. Thanks
my own research, ( cap weir) comments he removed the mesh. clever guy thought of the maf mod after all. also have you thought of doing the tb coolant bypass? will be doing mine. should keep thinks a bit cooler. Not recommended for places with allot of cold weather in case it freezes up! Jacob
Hmm.. I might remove it then s:) :) s:) Why not eh.
As for the coolant bypass, I'd rather not.
Might be absolutely fine in the summer but it's my daily.
Found a thread on the throttle body heating and coolant bypass.
Seems "safe" to do.
Also realised that the IAT sensor is in the MAF, which is obviously before the TB. So, I guess IAT is always a bit higher than it says because it has to go past a hot TB first.
However.... How much difference is a little tiny coolant flow making to airflow when the TB is right next to a raging hot block?
If you ask me, that bypass is utterly useless for the intents of power once the engine is hot.
But I'll do it anyway haha.
As for the mesh; Toyota calls it a gasket. There are 2,but I'm guessing there's a reason for 2 gaskets.
So I'm guessing it would be a case of dremeling the mesh out of the gasket instead of removing it full stop
every little helps lol. plus a cheap mod i will just link the coolant pipes together where they are, in case future owner wants to reconnect them. Jacob
Quote from: "Jacobsprky"every little helps lol. plus a cheap mod i will just link the coolant pipes together where they are, in case future owner wants to reconnect them. Jacob
That was my plan as well. Just need to get a connector. Ebay will help me s:) :) s:)
I'll try to remove the gasket. If unmetered air is coming in I'll see the signs soon enoigh
i sure i have something in the shed of junk that will help me out there!