OK, history in case you've missed my rants lately.
Subframe was absolutely rotten. Whilst I had the cat out, I replaced that and the manifold too.
Obviously, car drove like a pig until I got the tracking sorted a couple of days later - probably a total of 20 miles driven like this - it's not a daily driver.
Also, failed MOT on brakes (ho-hum). Since had handbrake cable, calipers, disks and pads replaced.
Pretty much around this time, I've had a problem.
When I brake from heavy speeds, the car pulls out a little on me and I have to correct the steering. It's quite scary some times, although it's not that big a "skip".
I thought perhaps the brakes were nipping, but it's got brand new calipers and still doing the same thing.
When I then accelerate, I feel the whole car shudder back.
Now, in addition, when I go around a corner and accelerate hard out of it, the same thing happens. I get a tug where I have to correct the steering, then again as I hit the straight.
Up until the subframe replacement, the car has always driven on rails as it should. I'd like to say perhaps this is caused by "spirited" driving, but I daren't work the car hard at all as it keeps catching me out, so it's not that.
I've checked all the bolts - they're all sturdy and don't look to have moved since the tracking was sorted. The engine mount that I had to remove is definitely sturdy too and the bolt is on securely. It was in good shape when I took it off - the rubber hadn't perished at all.
So...... thoughts are........
Engine mounts- they look OK, hard to get to of course, but I clearly don't have a clue on how to simulate hard(ish) braking at 60mph or pulling out of a tight bend.
Shocks. The car passed its MOT last week and the guy said that the car looked in excellent shape. It doesn't have nappies, so I'm not hiding anything.
Obviously I'm very much a novice but I seem to remember someone having issues with the shocker not rotating in the top mount, don't know wether that would cause a gripping feel if it's not letting the geo move as it should? And the shudder as it straightens out again? Probably just a stupid thought.
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does sound like a problem has developed up front.
Sounds more like a failed bush on the rear suspension to me. Nothing on the front would cause a shift in direction under acceleration without being seriously vague all of the time.
Suspicion would fall on the toe links to start with.
I vote for bushes as well... your car is old, the bushes are original, I'd seriously suggest putting some polys in..
If it was driving perfectly well prior to your repairs/ improvements, its very likely that something has been put back incorrectly, or damaged during the process.
Upgrading to the bushes etc is all well and (probably) good. Personally I would change as little as possible until I found the current problem.
Quote from: "Call the midlife!"Obviously I'm very much a novice but I seem to remember someone having issues with the shocker not rotating in the top mount, don't know wether that would cause a gripping feel if it's not letting the geo move as it should? And the shudder as it straightens out again? Probably just a stupid thought.
I'm a bit confused with this one. Do you have a picture I could look at? It does feel like something moves back into position after I pull away.
Quote from: "Carolyn"does sound like a problem has developed up front.
Problem is definitely behind me. I don't know how to explain, but it feels loose at the back, like when you drive in the wet and the rear wants to pull out on you.
Quote from: "MR TWO"If it was driving perfectly well prior to your repairs/ improvements, its very likely that something has been put back incorrectly, or damaged during the process.
Upgrading to the bushes etc is all well and (probably) good. Personally I would change as little as possible until I found the current problem.
I tend to agree. I'm not entirely sure what to check. Replacing the subframe is fairly straightforward.
I didn't have any bolts left over or anything. In fact the only thing that is different is that I didn't bother putting the nappies back on.
I might jack it up and see if I can spot any missing bolts.
I do wonder though, by simply removing the thing, I've jigged something else which has caused the bushes to fail.
Possible stupid question, did you get an alignment done after subframe changed?
Quote from: "carolineasb"Possible stupid question, did you get an alignment done after subframe changed?
Absolutely - as above, within 20 odd miles.
Not a stupid question at all, but it drove odd rather than like this.
Sorry reading too fast and missed that!
PS get it checked again? In case something has moved?
Quote from: "carolineasb"PS get it checked again? In case something has moved?
I did think about that. If I'm going to pay good money for that kind of thing, I might consider driving up to Loughborough and letting D1 Steve have a butchers.
Thing is, if it was alignment, I'd expect it to drive "odd", if you will. When the subframe was replaced, it felt like it was leaning (and it was - the camber was absolutely terrible).
Because of the brakes, I've had the thing up on stands an awful lot over the last few weeks. The camber looks fine and the wheels are no longer pointing inwards s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
It's more of a shudder, but not a shudder (it doesn't make noise, it just feels like it's shifting behind me).
The more I think about it, the more I think about the one engine mount I did move which was the one that connects to the subframe.
Would the "fill it up with tigerseal" trick do it? It did look in good nick, but I guess it's' under immense force all the time. Also, I wonder about Carolyn's brace!
Stu. I'm having a similar problem. Car is not as planted as it was. Great at fast corners but almost skittish at slow speeds and under braking. I had a fast road set up and I'm wondering if it's that??? Other than that I keep thinking I've done something wrong? But as you say it's a pretty simple job. I'm booked into my local garage for them to check everything is done up right and re check the alignment.
mike, obvious question, and mine is much improved, did you check the tyre pressures?
I'm struggling right now to find a garage round here that I can trust too, hence why I'd like someone who knows our car. I'd rather not have heart surgery done by a foot specialist if you get my point. They all seem to be Vauxhall, BMW, Volkswagen specialists (or simply tyre places that happen to do MOTs and the odd brake/exhaust).
My clutch is starting to slip and that's not a job that a) I think I'm capable of and b) I'd like an untrained monkey with a spanner to have a go at.
Yep, I've checked everything. Twice! Our village garage is a volvo specialist but they look after all our cars and I trust them. One of the mechanics builds and races 3 series bmw so is happy with modified cars. They changed kates clutch last year charged me £350 but also told me they don't want to do another one!
Quote from: "mikek"Yep, I've checked everything. Twice! Our village garage is a volvo specialist but they look after all our cars and I trust them. One of the mechanics builds and races 3 series bmw so is happy with modified cars. They changed kates clutch last year charged me £350 but also told me they don't want to do another one!
Maybe I should take it to Mr Clutch and have it done under the "fixed price" policy s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
If you had the alignment done recently I would go back and tell them the problem and ask them to check/re-do. Even if they find it fine they may look at your bushes etc as if they can find another fault then its not their work thats at fault so you could get some free diagnosis time on their ramp?
It is always possible that something has moved so its normal to have it checked after a week or two anyway.
You may be able to cross some things off your list afterwards even if you dont find the answer?
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Quote from: "mikek"Yep, I've checked everything. Twice! Our village garage is a volvo specialist but they look after all our cars and I trust them. One of the mechanics builds and races 3 series bmw so is happy with modified cars. They changed kates clutch last year charged me £350 but also told me they don't want to do another one!
Maybe I should take it to Mr Clutch and have it done under the "fixed price" policy s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Pretty sure that Steve at D1 will do a fixed price fit for you.
I know who I would rather use!
Other stu
it's always good to pay steve a visit. If theres something not right under there he will find it.
however, do bear in mind he does not do alignments.
You are closer than I am, so no excuses. For a top notch geo. Wheels in motion.
but see steve first so not wasting money at WIM.
Is everything torqued up right Stu? Some of those bolts need to be quite tight, and even very small movements can feel dramatic.
Good point jon, They should have been tightened by the alignment fellas.
I have the requisite tool. Do you know where I can find out the torque details?
Jason; interesting, I thought he could do regular alignment. I genuinely don't think it is an alignment problem, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.
I'd happily pay for an hour of his time, even if it was just to tell me what was wrong!
Simon; I might just do that. It was a few weeks ago, but I still have the receipt somewhere. They did say to come back if I wasn't happy.
Probably just need to get it up on a ramp and it'll seem obvious!
Toyota-tech.eu has it all if you can't find it elsewhere on line.
I'd start with quick and dirty - I reckon all bolt heads 17mm and bigger should be as tight as you can make them with a normal spanner or socket ratchet
Carolyn will tell you, she didn't trust me with the calipers because I am like a bull in a china shop with bolts - I often tighten them so much, I end up threading them.
I've been really careful, particularly with the copper bolts with the holes in!
But I'll try that tomorrow s;) ;) s;) Many thanks
Thats the thing with Steve. Everything is torqued correctly.
I would get the pry bar out and check for movement in all the joints. Do it with the suspension down and then again by jacking under the hub to put it where it would be with the weight of the car on it.
I did my forward links nice and tight on the ramp, ran the car round the block and both needed re-tightening.
I've experienced similar after having work done. The lower arm and trailing arm bolts need to be tightened from the bolt head end as the nuts have 4 raised lock features on them. On mine, it was a lower arm inboard bolt that was under torqued. It didn't move pulling stuff about under the car, but getting a torque wrench on all the bolts showed this one to be under tightened. Nipped it up to the correct torque and all was well.
Thanks Chris and Carolyn - that sounds like it might be the answer!
Quote from: "jonbill"Toyota-tech.eu has it all if you can't find it elsewhere on line.
I'd start with quick and dirty - I reckon all bolt heads 17mm and bigger should be as tight as you can make them with a normal spanner or socket ratchet
Ok, I'm struggling with that site on where to start!
When you say socket, a standard one, not a breaker bar?
I use a large ratchet on the bolt head and hold the nut with a combi spanner. Just do them up tight. You won't hurt bolts that size!!
OK, first things first (because it's going to take me ages to work out the other stuff)
The answer to Carolyn is yes, yes you can. As it happens, I'd barely started tightening this when I realised it was far too loose and wasn't actually tightening. I don't remember doing it, so I'll hazard a guess that it was done when they sorted the tracking.
(http://i.imgur.com/d63uBEB.jpg)
That's the one that goes behind the hub, middle arm. I'm going to kindly "borrow" FGRobs picture (I wish mine looked this clean)
(http://i.imgur.com/QZAstV6.png)
So that's the first job I'm going to have to fix.
OK, next up, I was wrong about the mid-engine mount. It was, well, soft!
Where it used to go up and down, when I put it back, it appears to go backwards and forwards!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Be5cjYUzA
Ah, I can do it as an image
(https://i.imgflip.com/1r0vao.gif)
In addition, I'm not sure it's supposed to go round like this?
I definitely can't get the bolt out of the middle. Should I be able to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTo54RHgU9c
(https://i.imgflip.com/1r0vds.gif)
I'm going to report this post btw. Youtube links don't work s:( :( s:(
In case you're wondering, I've filled it entirely with tigerseal as someone suggested.
I don't think btw either of these problems are what's causing the car to drive badly.
Highly probable that you have found the cause of the problem there. However, I can't see any reason for a garage to touch that one when doing tracking. If you are big enough, it's surprising how feeble a sturdy looking bolt can be.
As you posted part two as I was posting this reply, I'll elucidate. The lower arm bolt should be at a certain torque (can't remember what and no access to the BGB this evening), but from memory it's pretty tight. Without the proper clamping force, the bush inside the joint can shift about a little on the bolt and this will cause the symptoms you described. I would use a torque spanner on all of those bolts, no matter how tricky it is to get it in there, as they are all strippable with a 12" ratchet.
I've had problems twice in this area, one was the lower arm inboard bolt, caused exactly what you described, second episode was a trailing arm inboard bolt, similar effects under braking, but not as dramatic under cornering load, this one was audible, conking when applying power.. I now run them all at +10% torque, but it does have a bit more shove and grip than standard.
I've got the manuals. Off the top of my head, 87nm which is very, very tight (My torque wrench is one of those 60-300 huge breaker-type ones).
It's that or 78, which is still tight.
The one that isn't so bad (around 50 something) is the rear one with the bush.
Will it really have that big an effect though? I mean, this seriously affects the handling of the car, not to mention the braking.
Oh yes, it was properly scary.
Let the Tiger seal cure for at least 24 hours before reloading the mount. That way it will stay centred.
Quote from: "Carolyn"Let the Tiger seal cure for at least 24 hours before reloading the mount. That way it will stay centred.
Yup, have done exactly that. Cars going nowhere without a bolt anyway.
Right, big thanks to ChrisGB. Nail >>>>>>>> Head.
Went and bought a high-tensile steel bolt, exactly the same size and Class 10.9 bolt which has a starting recommendation of 134 Nm so perfectly safe for something that wants 103 (that's a high torque bolt - you're absolutely right)
Took the car out for a spin and hey presto, the "nip" has gone entirely. I have a funny noise at really slow speeds, so something somewhere is obviously knocking, but the car drives wonderfully.
Feel much safer now.
How weird that something supposedly so incidental and small makes such a huge difference!
Got to love these cars.
The satisfaction is priceless
Well played sir
Well done Stu! And thanks to you I've sorted out mine as well. Same arms but the other end. Bolts were tight but not as tight as they should be. Tightened them back up and no more scary braking! I guess the slightest movement at that end transmits into what feels like a massive amount of movement at the other end right at the point you really don't want any.....When trying to stop!
Quote from: "Ardent"Got to love these cars.
The satisfaction is priceless
Well played sir
Gotta love this forum and the people on it. The information and help available is amazing!
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Feel much safer now.
How weird that something supposedly so incidental and small makes such a huge difference!
Glad to know you have resolved the problem, and that its back feeling safe!
I totally agree, its amazing how often small bits and pieces not working correctly can make such a big difference to the car.
Quote from: "mikek"Quote from: "Ardent"Got to love these cars.
The satisfaction is priceless
Well played sir
Gotta love this forum and the people on it. The information and help available is amazing!
This.
Although to be fair, had I have not had the forum, I would simply have paid a grand to have the subframe replaced.
But it's a great experience learning yourself, which was why I bought the car!
Quote from: "The Other Stu"Quote from: "mikek"Quote from: "Ardent"Got to love these cars.
The satisfaction is priceless
Well played sir
Gotta love this forum and the people on it. The information and help available is amazing!
This.
Although to be fair, had I have not had the forum, I would simply have paid a grand to have the subframe replaced.
But it's a great experience learning yourself, which was why I bought the car!
Me too