From what I'm reading, there seems to be little point in installing a cone Air filter as the standard box with sports filter will do just as good a job, if not better? Should I extend the air intake to one of the side vents though?
Nope. Leave as is. The noise from a cone is wicked though ;)
I do like a nice note from an engine though lol if I was to install a cone, would the k&N one be a good choice? Is it necessary to install the pipe for the cone?
What about the BMC carbon filter?
I have a BMC CDA that I was going to put up for sale. It JUST fits behind the battery. It's a really good filter. IATs of just a few degrees above ambient temperature. Have though about price yet but have recently washed it pretty thoroughly. Will just need oiling.
If you go cone, re-use the stock maf adapter. Buy a 2nd hand airbox and cut out the MAF housing. That way the disturbance to the stock calibration is minimal.
I mean, its picking hairs, but performance decrease is more likely than increase. By about 2hp or so :) A burger for dinner will do the same
If you buy the k&N induction kit, the cone has a section for the maf to screw into, but with a cone, do you need to still put a hose in to bring cold air to the cone?
Anyone? Lol if you don't bring a hose from the side vent to the cone, surely it would be warm air from the engine that's being sucked in which would reduce power?
Quote from: michaelb on April 8, 2018, 13:27
Anyone? Lol if you don't bring a hose from the side vent to the cone, surely it would be warm air from the engine that's being sucked in which would reduce power?
Folk tend to site the cone in front of the battery where it gets cold air from the side vent anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So you remove the whole rubber hose bit that comes out of the engine and turns to face the rear?
Or could you not use the existing air intake that goes into the stock box and extend it slightly to meet the new cone?
Or if you install a cone Air filter should the ecu really be reprogrammed as the car doesn't understand why there is more air flow and will actually run worse? Lol
If you have a little search there's quite a few in depth topics on this.
IMO, the Generally consensus is using an after market filter of good quality, using the OEM MAF adapter cut from a standard air box and placing it all behind the battery as it gets a better cooed of cold air. If you remove the passenger side vent you'll see that there's a pipe that leads to behind the battery. This is where the standard setup takes its feed from. Effectively you're using the same air supply with a more free flowing filter.
From what I gather you'll, at best, get the same power, maybe drop a pony or two, but with fractionally better throttle response and a lovely tone to the engine, which, IMHO, is worth it by itself.
If you REALLY wanted to be anal....you should remap, as you correctly stated, the ECU will be a little off.
But then you'll need a piggy back ecu or a standalone.
For the sake of 3-5hp??
Up to you I guess.
No doubt more knowledgable people will correct some of what I said but that's gotta be close.
Cheers mate that is helpful! I noticed that one of the k&N cone filters has a place to put the maf housing in if you unscrew it from the stock box. Would I then just attach the new cone pretty much directly to the engine and can do away with the large rubber hose that currently comes out and turns towards the rear? Have you a picture of yours?
Sorry the k&N has a place to put the maf sensor, not housing!
Dan was spot on
Basically the long/short of it is that if you're going to do it, do it for the noise.
Also, we are but people/men; if it sounds faster, it IS faster ;D ;D ;D ;D
MAF calibration is a pain in the hoopiola. But if MAF signal is wrong...everything else is wrong. Garbage in, garbage out.
But..nothing life-threatening. Barely noticeable at best
Anyone any pics of theirs so I can see?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/71b4c04e5cd0d3bc6d352de8aef3cb4f.jpg)
You can just about see it in here. Or what I think your original plan was. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180408/a4c5c3f8e49432bb4bc826bce9d4bb84.jpg)
I can't 100% say that these were better or worse than standard. I felt behind the battery sounded great and felt lovely to drive.
I used same diameter pipe and an aluminium MAF adapter from monkey wrench racing.
But just like shnazzle said, it's mainly about noise as we know that it's not the intake that's restricting these engines.
I put mine behind the battery, so have many others. Does it give performance gains? Probably not. Is it the best bang for buck mod? Nope. Does it sound awesome? Definitely.
Depends on your priorities. What's your goal for the car?
They are 2 different positions for the air filter right? They don't look the same at all or am I looking at them wrong? Lol
Correct. On the first it is hidden behind the battery, on the second it's in the standard position.
I am bias towards the BMC CDA. I think it's the mutts. I've had it for nearly 5 years or so and was gutted when I couldn't fit mine with my turbo build.
To me, the enclosed filter is important. It really helps avoid heat soak.
The fact the CDA is carbon fine just helps even more.
But because it's enclosed in carbon fibre does that mean it doesn't get quite as good a noise as the open cone?
I think it still sounds pretty mega. Doesn't enclose the noise.
What's your goals for the car by the way? Have you considered gear shift/cage bushes? Only a few quid and huge difference. Granted it doesn't make noise but I think best bang for buck mod I've done.
I haven't really decided what to do yet, I want more power but need to decide on turbo or conversion! I was looking at all sorts of stuff and I may take a while to decide lol in the meantime, I thought a few less expensive mods might be nice, such as air filter. I hadn't considered gear shift or anything yet. I've spent quite a bit over the last few months on the looks, bodykit, style bar, new wheels, interior is re-trimmed in brushed aluminium, so now I want to start on the engine etc. I think I'm also going to get new discs, pads, calipers and maybe new lowering springs too!
Springs/coil overs is a great option I've got tte springs but want coil overs ultimately.
If you are planning on conversion/ turbo build then putting a new filter set up. Even if it is only £50 of parts. Could be completely wasted.
I've just (almost) completed a turbo build. There's a thread on here for diy turbo build parts sourcing.
I'm not going to start that discussion as it's probably for another thread and I really think you need a good long session of reading up on both. 2zz with a turbo further down the line could be the ultimate option.
Bracing is well worth it! Braided hoses are good IMO.
Quote from: dan944 on April 8, 2018, 16:28
I'm not going to start that discussion as it's probably for another thread and I really think you need a good long session of reading up on both. 2zz with a turbo further down the line could be the ultimate option.
Bracing is well worth it! Braided hoses are good IMO.
V6 V6 V6.
Until someone gets a V8 that actually works.
True!! I think there's not a huge price gap between turbo and v6.
Quote from: dan944 on April 8, 2018, 16:37
True!! I think there's not a huge price gap between turbo and v6.
Let's not go there on this thread.
Turbo done properly will cost less and make more power.
But it won't necessarily be better.
Oops I went there.
Would it really cost less? I'm looking at one from monkeywrench and it's nearly 3 grand, plus need a clutch at 500, injectors at 150 and then mapped at 1500!!
If you look at the kit I've just built it will be about £3700 I think. Can't remember exactly. I think woodsport quote 4.5k?
Availability is the problem, but you can nigh on buy a whole car for that sort of money. Just turbo cars do not come up very often.
Quote from: michaelb on April 8, 2018, 17:59
plus need a clutch at 500,
What sort of power/torque is that producing that it needs a £500 clutch?
Quote from: michaelb on April 8, 2018, 17:59
Would it really cost less? I'm looking at one from monkeywrench and it's nearly 3 grand, plus need a clutch at 500, injectors at 150 and then mapped at 1500!!
I have heard of turbo kits done for under 2k but Dan's 3.7k DIY is more like it imho.
Secondhand kits go for 2k plus.
V6 swap is 4.5k minimum.
V6 cars come up rarely mine cost 2.5k but needed another 2k to make it road worthy.
He didn't say how much it would put out, just that it was needed! Lol
My engine build alone is probably at the 3k mark if not more, then you need to factor in the ECU, mapping and upgrades such as brakes and suspension, cooling etc.
Main issue with the 1zz or 2zz is the gearbox being quite weak - not many uprated options without going for an E153 box.
Once you start getting into more money than the car cost, it always worries me! Lol
But you do end up with a car that can keep up with much much more expensive cars and then leave them behind in the bends.
That is true mate! They are like go-karts in the corners!
Still waiting for my head to head with a Cayman S.
Confident I've got the power on the straights.
Doesn't matter how much you spend though the 2 isn't going to be such a nice place to sit.
Quote from: michaelb on April 8, 2018, 18:38
Once you start getting into more money than the car cost, it always worries me! Lol
The cheapest 1zz powered Lotus Elise I can find on Autotrader is at around £17k, true is it lighter at 860kg but its still £17k for a standard car with standard power levels. With my engine build (most parts overrated for the power) should make around 400bhp, but of weight reduction should drop the car to around 900kg. Lets say I spend £7.5k on the car in terms of mods, here are the options:
Facelift MR2 (say £2.k to buy and get up to spec), plus £7.5k in mods = £10k
Lotus Elise - 1zz powered, standard = £17k
My MR2 when its finished - 444bhp per ton
Lotus Elise - 160bhp per ton
Also to put my build in perspective:
Pagani Zonda C12 S 7.3 - £339k - 437 bhp per ton
Lamborghini Aventador LP700-4, £271k - 438 bhp per ton
Nissan R35 GTR Nismo - £92.8k - 325 bhp per ton
Amen to that. Had loads of people ask why are you spending that much on THAT car. You could've got and m3??
These will eat m3s at the power levels Mitch is aiming. Once you put it into power/weight ratios. Most cars are below an uprated '2.
And weight is the biggest killer of acceleration.
Why start with a heavy powerful car and try to make it light when you can have a light car and make it powerful.
Quote from: dan944 on April 9, 2018, 07:36
Amen to that. Had loads of people ask why are you spending that much on THAT car. You could've got and m3??
These will eat m3s at the power levels Mitch is aiming. Once you put it into power/weight ratios. Most cars are below an uprated '2.
And weight is the biggest killer of acceleration.
Why start with a heavy powerful car and try to make it light when you can have a light car and make it powerful.
This is why I spent a while trying to find the right platform, was initially looking at some of the 2.0 TFSi powered cars, would have needed to be RWD meaning it would have needed to be a Quattro. The engine is easily tuned up to quite a high output with many parts out there - even had a look at the older 1.8t, however the car itself was around 4-500kg heavier than the MR2 so I would have needed to have run far more power to match the MR2. Did also look at the mk1 mx-engineinwrongplace however without an engine swap it wouldn't have made the power, plus an issue with rust and its still quite common.
For me I am not too worried about the actual power output it makes on a dyno, its all about power to weight coupled with some good gearing - sure I could have 6-700bhp in various other cars but the platform they are in make them quite heavy or difficult to get parts for - example is the Toyota Soarer with the 1JZ engine or the Lexus LS400 with its awesome 1UZ engine - but the car itself weighs 1.7 tons lol.
The MR2 roadster is great as the platform itself has great handling, just need a bump in power - good thing about a turbo build is that you can turn the boost down or up depending on the application. Doubt I will be running full boost much as that would only be on the drag strip, probably be running lower boost on the road - say around 6psi with around 220bhp which I think is where the car should have been at in the first place.
Power to weight or even torque to weight is where it's at.
I figure my car runs at about 235 bhp and 235 ft-lb per ton.
I would like to say that an MR2 Roadster will never handle or feel as sweet as an Elise or Exige. The rigidity of the tub allows the double wishbone suspension to do it job beautifully.
It will however be much more comfortable and cost less to fix.
Also down here in the south east I see way more Elise and Exige so it's more rare too.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 9, 2018, 13:26
Power to weight or even torque to weight is where it's at.
I figure my car runs at about 235 bhp and 235 ft-lb per ton.
I would like to say that an MR2 Roadster will never handle or feel as sweet as an Elise or Exige. The rigidity of the tub allows the double wishbone suspension to do it job beautifully.
It will however be much more comfortable and cost less to fix.
Also down here in the south east I see way more Elise and Exige so it's safer too.
I think the comparison between our car and the Lotus is that our car is a road car for the track, the Lotus is a track car for the road.
I agree guys, I just get nervous is all lol I did look at an Elise but I don't really fit in It very well! I tall and broad and the 2 fits me fine!
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 8, 2018, 16:32
Quote from: dan944 on April 8, 2018, 16:28
I'm not going to start that discussion as it's probably for another thread and I really think you need a good long session of reading up on both. 2zz with a turbo further down the line could be the ultimate option.
Bracing is well worth it! Braided hoses are good IMO.
V6 V6 V6.
Until someone gets a V8 that actually works.
Ok ok... I'm working on it!!! Lol
Quote from: 8thumpers on April 10, 2018, 08:59
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 8, 2018, 16:32
Quote from: dan944 on April 8, 2018, 16:28
I'm not going to start that discussion as it's probably for another thread and I really think you need a good long session of reading up on both. 2zz with a turbo further down the line could be the ultimate option.
Bracing is well worth it! Braided hoses are good IMO.
V6 V6 V6.
Until someone gets a V8 that actually works.
Ok ok... I'm working on it!!! Lol
Hurry up!
Can we close this discussion? As this has absolutely nowt to do with air intakes anymore
Cone filter:
That was mine before it came out.
Absolutely zero performance gain and irrelevant for road use - but looked sharp!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180410/78872d21e4494ac97ca8d0c2d986640d.jpg)
I just purchased a k&N gen II cold air induction kit, should be here tomorrow and will fit it on Friday :)
That was the kit that was on the car I got my emanage piggyback from ( @robsonic) and it required a 10% adjustment in the MAF calibration.
So you'll be running a fraction lean, until the ecu adapts.
I knew it wouldn't be straightforward lol will it really effect the performance then?
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:05
I knew it wouldn't be straightforward lol will it really effect the performance then?
Nah. Just don't become obsessed with fuel trims like me. :D :D :D
You'll feel a difference when you install it. And in your mind, with the noise it'll feel faster :) Then slowly the ECU will adjust the fueling to get the air/fuel ratios where they're supposed to be.
The ecu will adjust itself? I see Dan has a unichip q for sale, would you recommend one? I have tried to get in touch with the unichip dealer in NI but they don't respond, I think they may be out of business, which would leave me with a piggyback ecu, with an aggressive map on it, that I can't remap!
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:11
The ecu will adjust itself? I see Dan has a unichip q for sale, would you recommend one? I have tried to get in touch with the unichip dealer in NI but they don't respond, I think they may be out of business, which would leave me with a piggyback ecu, with an aggressive map on it, that I can't remap!
Nope, just enjoy the noise mate :) The change is well within range of what the ECU can compensate for without noticeable ill effect.
In fact, logically speaking, the conversation between MAF, o2 sensors and ECU would go like so:
MAF: Hello ECU, this is how much air I'm getting in
ECU: WTF...that's not what I was expecting mate. *sigh*. Never mind, I'll sort it out once Mr O2 tells me what's up
...(time passes)
O2: AAhhhh, ECU! Dude! There's like far too much freakin air in yo shizzle. Cut it out! give me some fuel
ECU: wtf man, MAF told me to put this much fuel in...so I did. Now you're whigning on.
O2: Aye, fix it.
ECU: MAF man..you kn0b. How about you just tell me how much air is actually coming in!
MAF: I can't!! Owner changed me :( I'm blind. BLIND I tell you!!
ECU: Fine...as usual...I get to sort out the crap. O2, how much more air is there?
O2: can't say for certain, all I know is it's too much.
ECU: Ok...*adds fuel* How about now?
O2: TOO MUCH!!! TOO MUCH!! I'm meeeltiing I'm meeeeeeelltiiinngg
ECU: dude chill...it was only a bit of fuel. Here. Better now?
O2: That'll di geeza. That'll di.
ECU: We all friends now?
MAF: ...could give me my eyes back like.
ECU: Well I can't so STFU.
Hahahaha that's brilliant!!!
Will it make my engine light come on then? If the o2 sensor thinks something's up? I ask as it goes for mot in a few weeks
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:27
Will it make my engine light come on then? If the o2 sensor thinks something's up? I ask as it goes for mot in a few weeks
Nah. As I said, the adjustment is 10%. Actual adjustment may be a little less even. Fuel trims can go up to about 25 long term and another 15 short trim (I think.. Might be more) before it throws a code. So, TONS of room for adjustment.
As I said don't worry about it :)
Sweet! Thanks mate!!
Quote from: shnazzle on April 10, 2018, 16:20
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:11
The ecu will adjust itself? I see Dan has a unichip q for sale, would you recommend one? I have tried to get in touch with the unichip dealer in NI but they don't respond, I think they may be out of business, which would leave me with a piggyback ecu, with an aggressive map on it, that I can't remap!
Nope, just enjoy the noise mate :) The change is well within range of what the ECU can compensate for without noticeable ill effect.
In fact, logically speaking, the conversation between MAF, o2 sensors and ECU would go like so:
MAF: Hello ECU, this is how much air I'm getting in
ECU: WTF...that's not what I was expecting mate. *sigh*. Never mind, I'll sort it out once Mr O2 tells me what's up
...(time passes)
O2: AAhhhh, ECU! Dude! There's like far too much freakin air in yo shizzle. Cut it out! give me some fuel
ECU: wtf man, MAF told me to put this much fuel in...so I did. Now you're whigning on.
O2: Aye, fix it.
ECU: MAF man..you kn0b. How about you just tell me how much air is actually coming in!
MAF: I can't!! Owner changed me :( I'm blind. BLIND I tell you!!
ECU: Fine...as usual...I get to sort out the crap. O2, how much more air is there?
O2: can't say for certain, all I know is it's too much.
ECU: Ok...*adds fuel* How about now?
O2: TOO MUCH!!! TOO MUCH!! I'm meeeltiing I'm meeeeeeelltiiinngg
ECU: dude chill...it was only a bit of fuel. Here. Better now?
O2: That'll di geeza. That'll di.
ECU: We all friends now?
MAF: ...could give me my eyes back like.
ECU: Well I can't so STFU.
Best ROC post bar none.
It's class isn't it!!
Love that post!!
I'm currently running a fraction of boost and the ecu is dealing with it pretty well with no issues.
Clever things!!
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 10, 2018, 17:00
Quote from: shnazzle on April 10, 2018, 16:20
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:11
The ecu will adjust itself? I see Dan has a unichip q for sale, would you recommend one? I have tried to get in touch with the unichip dealer in NI but they don't respond, I think they may be out of business, which would leave me with a piggyback ecu, with an aggressive map on it, that I can't remap!
Nope, just enjoy the noise mate :) The change is well within range of what the ECU can compensate for without noticeable ill effect.
In fact, logically speaking, the conversation between MAF, o2 sensors and ECU would go like so:
MAF: Hello ECU, this is how much air I'm getting in
ECU: WTF...that's not what I was expecting mate. *sigh*. Never mind, I'll sort it out once Mr O2 tells me what's up
...(time passes)
O2: AAhhhh, ECU! Dude! There's like far too much freakin air in yo shizzle. Cut it out! give me some fuel
ECU: wtf man, MAF told me to put this much fuel in...so I did. Now you're whigning on.
O2: Aye, fix it.
ECU: MAF man..you kn0b. How about you just tell me how much air is actually coming in!
MAF: I can't!! Owner changed me :( I'm blind. BLIND I tell you!!
ECU: Fine...as usual...I get to sort out the crap. O2, how much more air is there?
O2: can't say for certain, all I know is it's too much.
ECU: Ok...*adds fuel* How about now?
O2: TOO MUCH!!! TOO MUCH!! I'm meeeltiing I'm meeeeeeelltiiinngg
ECU: dude chill...it was only a bit of fuel. Here. Better now?
O2: That'll di geeza. That'll di.
ECU: We all friends now?
MAF: ...could give me my eyes back like.
ECU: Well I can't so STFU.
Best ROC post bar none.
+ 3 on that. For someone like me who wants to be able to understand more but gets lost in the science that actually helped me understand the relationship between the components more betterer.
Patrick should do a "For Dummies" book!
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Yeah it's like a story I'd read my kids, minus the swearing lol
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 10, 2018, 17:29
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 10, 2018, 17:00
Quote from: shnazzle on April 10, 2018, 16:20
Quote from: michaelb on April 10, 2018, 16:11
The ecu will adjust itself? I see Dan has a unichip q for sale, would you recommend one? I have tried to get in touch with the unichip dealer in NI but they don't respond, I think they may be out of business, which would leave me with a piggyback ecu, with an aggressive map on it, that I can't remap!
Nope, just enjoy the noise mate :) The change is well within range of what the ECU can compensate for without noticeable ill effect.
In fact, logically speaking, the conversation between MAF, o2 sensors and ECU would go like so:
MAF: Hello ECU, this is how much air I'm getting in
ECU: WTF...that's not what I was expecting mate. *sigh*. Never mind, I'll sort it out once Mr O2 tells me what's up
...(time passes)
O2: AAhhhh, ECU! Dude! There's like far too much freakin air in yo shizzle. Cut it out! give me some fuel
ECU: wtf man, MAF told me to put this much fuel in...so I did. Now you're whigning on.
O2: Aye, fix it.
ECU: MAF man..you kn0b. How about you just tell me how much air is actually coming in!
MAF: I can't!! Owner changed me :( I'm blind. BLIND I tell you!!
ECU: Fine...as usual...I get to sort out the crap. O2, how much more air is there?
O2: can't say for certain, all I know is it's too much.
ECU: Ok...*adds fuel* How about now?
O2: TOO MUCH!!! TOO MUCH!! I'm meeeltiing I'm meeeeeeelltiiinngg
ECU: dude chill...it was only a bit of fuel. Here. Better now?
O2: That'll di geeza. That'll di.
ECU: We all friends now?
MAF: ...could give me my eyes back like.
ECU: Well I can't so STFU.
Best ROC post bar none.
+ 3 on that. For someone like me who wants to be able to understand more but gets lost in the science that actually helped me understand the relationship between the components more betterer.
Patrick should do a "For Dummies" book!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Slightly off topic but semi relevant and I know I stands a chance of an answer.
I habitually use my battery cut out switch through the week as I don't make use of the 2. Stupid question but does that reset the ECU everytime or do I have to disconnect both terminals?
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I may be wrong but I think it will reset it. Again may be wrong but I believe that the ECU draws a tiny amount of current as a Hold up to save data.
Unless the ECU has a hold up battery of its own in which case it may last long enough to stay alive between charges?
But I doubt the latter.
Quote from: dan944 on April 10, 2018, 18:28
I may be wrong but I think it will reset it. Again may be wrong but I believe that the ECU draws a tiny amount of current as a Hold up to save data.
Unless the ECU has a hold up battery of its own in which case it may last long enough to stay alive between charges?
But I doubt the latter.
Cheers, I know it's the norm to disconnect it for 10 minutes after adding mods etc to reset it but as my cut off only works on the Negative I'm not sure that's the same as disconnecting.
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I want to say it should. It should be stopping current flow. Throw up an EML and see if it clears it. Lol.
Yup. There's enough charge in there once you disconnect for about 10 mins of memory retention, then it's ecu memory bye bye
Quote from: shnazzle on April 10, 2018, 18:40
Yup. There's enough charge in there once you disconnect for about 10 mins of memory retention, then it's ecu memory bye bye
But does it have to be both poles disconnected for that? Not just the neg cutoff.
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No, one is fine thinking about it. I only ever whip one terminal off if I'm leaving it and mine was started up about 5 times in the 18 months she was off the road.
After the first time I reconnected the EML had disappeared but I know the fault had not. Therefore, ECU reset.
Quote from: dan944 on April 10, 2018, 19:39
No, one is fine thinking about it. I only ever whip one terminal off if I'm leaving it and mine was started up about 5 times in the 18 months she was off the road.
After the first time I reconnected the EML had disappeared but I know the fault had not. Therefore, ECU reset.
Sounds about right, cheers.
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Got the K&N fitted, on start up, don't notice much change in noise as my tte exhaust makes a good note but after 3-4k rpm you can hear it kick in!
Quote from: michaelb on April 14, 2018, 08:55
Got the K&N fitted, on start up, don't notice much change in noise as my tte exhaust makes a good note but after 3-4k rpm you can hear it kick in!
Smile-inducing isn't it?
I just had a blast with the top down and as you push on a bit, it has this extra snarl and it is definitely smile inducing!