Had no clue what to call this thread..
Gregg from RRR had some interesting conclusions following the install of Helen's EMU Black standalone.
Let's just assume that the guy is seriously clued up a about cars, engines, ECU's, etc. He works almost exclusively on high performance race cars so, this is small fry.
1) 440cc injectors are running at about 70% duty cycle at 10psi, even on the returnless fuel rail. That's partially to do with the turbo choice in the case of the SP240. It's rather small.
The maxing out of the injectors on the Dastek was purely down to mapping and kit. A good standalone is very happy running 10psi flat at the redline on 440cc.
In fact he said they were good injectors (green Lotus 440cc)
So,no need for 630cc or higher unless you start pushing more power or a GT2860R or something
2) the turbo is too small. The 2554 from the Saab as used by TTE and SP240 runs out of puff. Boost starts to build as early as 1500rpm if you control the boost correctly, but Gregg is 100% certain that the turbo is well outside its efficiency range at high load and rpm.
Even if you're not chasing power, a bigger turbo (I'm thinking TD04 or GT2860R) would make much better power and make power better, if that makes sense. A much more usable range of boost.
So for those starting kits, 2554 is too small. You're straining the turbo and you're reducing its life and range to cope with slightly older oil or cold oil (@1979scotte)
3) Piggyback on VVT engines; he refuses. Blatantly refuses.
He explained that the way they (most of them) work is by shifting the camshaft position signals to the left or right. So basically it's not driving timing, but sending an incorrect signal to the ecu so that it adjusts timing.
See it this way, you're not moving cars on the road, you're moving the road under the cars.
This is absolutely fine and a great strategy, if it weren't for vvti which relies heavily on the camshaft position.
That, together with bigger injectors and the ridiculously clever Toyota closed loop fueling, it creates an unreliable mess where you either leave power on the table or you have a lot of inconsistency.
Worth noting that the emanage doesn't use this strategy, hence it's quite effective on vvti cars but not immune in any way to the fueling battles and MAF calibration/conversion issues.
4) The TTE intercooler "does f*cking nuuuuthing" in Gregg's words. On a hot summer day, driving down a motorway, you're looking at intake temps at low boost of a minimum of about 40deg celcius. The second you stand still it goes up well over 50 and even on the dyno with fan it reached 61deg.
He said a small fan mounted to the intercooler, run by the ecu, would make a world of difference. That or water misting of the intercooler like a subaru, when you have a good hard run.
So, a big intercooler or a charge cooler is the way forward when running over 200hp at flywheel.
5) The SP240 kit's biggest flaw, and Gregg was quite direct about this, is the lack of intake air temp measurement after the turbo. It uses the MAF air temp sensor, which sits before the turbo. That's just whack.
So you can't adjust map and timing for changes in temperature. That's fine in parts of the map where you're driving on MAF on Open loop, but once you're relying on the VE table and MAP, the densities are wrong and you're at the mercy of the knock sensor and any compensation the stock ECU does via the o2 sensors. Ugly.
This thought was also shared by RA Performance, who were adamant about adding IAT sensor as the 1ZZ is very sensitive to temperature differences.
So, that's two unrelated bodies that say the same thing, both with intense engine mapping experience at Pro race level.
That's it I think :)
Sry interesting!!
A bit sad about my gt2554 being a bit small really. But oh well. It's done now.
Hoping my intercooler is big enough :s I may get a fan set up so he can wire it in to the ecu for me. Also need to add a scoop to grab some air from underneath the car. although as it stands my temps haven't been above 41 degrees and that's varied driving and a lot of idling in our recent heat. If I can get Max highs of mid 30s I'll be happy.
Also sad about my Siemens injectors. I have a cheap set of 440s I was gonna use as an experiment. But the last thing I want is them to find out they're useless whilst on the dyno.
All the rest sounds great!! Glad the ecu is running so well and now the car is spot on!!
Quote from: dan944 on June 4, 2018, 15:00
Sry interesting!!
A bit sad about my gt2554 being a bit small really. But oh well. It's done now.
Hoping my intercooler is big enough :s I may get a fan set up so he can wire it in to the ecu for me. Also need to add a scoop to grab some air from underneath the car. although as it stands my temps haven't been above 41 degrees and that's varied driving and a lot of idling in our recent heat. If I can get Max highs of mid 30s I'll be happy.
Also sad about my Siemens injectors. I have a cheap set of 440s I was gonna use as an experiment. But the last thing I want is them to find out they're useless whilst on the dyno.
All the rest sounds great!! Glad the ecu is running so well and now the car is spot on!!
Bare in mind that these of the words of a racing engineer.
The t2554 has proven itself many times over to be a good solution for the mr2, just not the best.
I've always thought it ran out of puff quite early but I always thought it was the mapping.
But consider that the power it makes is up to the mechanical limit of the stock car, so its not necessarily a horrible thing.
Injectors are not just about flow amount. Atomisation is equally important and it could very well be that your injectors are better suited to the higher compression. Won't know until you get it mapped but it's certainly not a bad thing, and it means you're ready for more power.
Your intercooler is 3x the size of the TTE. I think you'll be alright :) But if you're already hitting 41deg, the scoop sounds like a priority as its essentially cooling as much as the tiny TTE. a fan is never a bad idea if you can be arsed.
Very true. Scoop and fans are next then!!
Regarding the comment about 440cc injectors' duty cycle at 10psi boost, is that with a rising rate FPR or the totally bog standard 1zz fuel system?
Presumably the maps these guys are producing are perfectly capable of fully satisfying the MOT emissions requirements?
Cheers
Quote from: lamcote on June 4, 2018, 15:52
Regarding the comment about 440cc injectors' duty cycle at 10psi boost, is that with a rising rate FPR or the totally bog standard 1zz fuel system?
Presumably the maps theses guys are producing are perfectly capable of fully satisfying the MOT emissions requirements?
Cheers
Bog standard 1zz rail and pump. So, even when it's effectively pushing fuel at 33psi, it's still enough.
Well as it stood idling lambda was 1.0 exactly, so that ticks that box and i assume the same is the case at "fast idle" or whatever the 2k rpm one.
I can check the wideband values at that rpm at standstill later. But he knows. It's a road car so should be all good. It got through mot before the standalone (barely) and that was with it running pig rich and idling at 900ish. So.. Not too worried
Excellent, thanks
That is interesting, it's useful to compare reality with theory because the fuel injector calculator websites all say 630cc injectors would be required for that sort of performance. Presumably that's why people go for these, it's handy to know they're not really required.
There's your proof. I think this was the last power run he did at around midnight.
0.69bar (10psi), rpm was about 7100 and injector duty 77.5%(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180604/91951bb3629f8d3ef66b9f911cdeb3fa.jpg)
As far as I am aware it's a t2559 on the sp240.
Agreed it's not a great turbo it is very old tech.
A GT2554R is a very different beast.
If it's too small for a 1.8 engine not sure why Garrett recommend it for 1.4-2.2L engines.
I am sure Greg has forgotten more about turbos and tunning than I will ever know but a GT2860RS is a a 360 bhp capable turbo and a 1.8 is the smallest capacity engine Garrett recommend it is fitted too. Not convinced that's a perfect match for a stock 1zz.
Sorry.
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356)
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286)
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 4, 2018, 17:17
As far as I am aware it's a t2559 on the sp240.
Agreed it's not a great turbo amenities is very old tech.
A GT2554R is a very different beast.
If it's too small for a 1.8 engine not sure why Garrett recommend it for 1.4-2.2L engines.
I am sure Greg has forgotten more about turbos and tunning than I will ever know but a GT2860RS is a a 360 bhp capable turbo and a 1.8 is the smallest capacity engine Garrett recommend it is fitted too. Not convinced that's a perfect match for a stock 1zz.
Sorry.
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356)
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286)
Sorry you're absolutely right. 2559.
Can never remember.
The 2554 is used a lot on the 1.6 Mazda, and they say it runs out of puff a bit. So 2559 running out on the 1.8 kind of makes sense.
The most important thing is intake temp. The little big bigger turbo brings down IAT a fair bit
I just like how fast it spools. And with rrr tuning it correctly it'll be a whole load better I imagine.
Quote from: dan944 on June 4, 2018, 18:09
I just like how fast it spools. And with rrr tuning it correctly it'll be a whole load better I imagine.
It's still a fantastic turbo. No matter what. Still a very good match for mr2.
Once Mikek has booked himself in I need to get in touch with them and sort a date out. I have very limited times to do this but would like to get some summer driving with the car sorted (mechanically) she still needs a lot of tarting up before jap performance show at end of August.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 4, 2018, 17:26
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 4, 2018, 17:17
As far as I am aware it's a t2559 on the sp240.
Agreed it's not a great turbo amenities is very old tech.
A GT2554R is a very different beast.
If it's too small for a 1.8 engine not sure why Garrett recommend it for 1.4-2.2L engines.
I am sure Greg has forgotten more about turbos and tunning than I will ever know but a GT2860RS is a a 360 bhp capable turbo and a 1.8 is the smallest capacity engine Garrett recommend it is fitted too. Not convinced that's a perfect match for a stock 1zz.
Sorry.
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356)
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286)
The most important thing is intake temp. The little big bigger turbo brings down IAT a fair bit
That where a decent chargecooler come in.
Surprised the intercooler on the SP is so poor.
Why did TTE bother?
Is yours in good nick?
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 4, 2018, 18:24
Quote from: shnazzle on June 4, 2018, 17:26
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 4, 2018, 17:17
As far as I am aware it's a t2559 on the sp240.
Agreed it's not a great turbo amenities is very old tech.
A GT2554R is a very different beast.
If it's too small for a 1.8 engine not sure why Garrett recommend it for 1.4-2.2L engines.
I am sure Greg has forgotten more about turbos and tunning than I will ever know but a GT2860RS is a a 360 bhp capable turbo and a 1.8 is the smallest capacity engine Garrett recommend it is fitted too. Not convinced that's a perfect match for a stock 1zz.
Sorry.
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356)
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286)
The most important thing is intake temp. The little big bigger turbo brings down IAT a fair bit
That where a decent chargecooler come in.
Surprised the intercooler on the SP is so poor.
Why did TTE bother?
Is yours in good nick?
Looked smashing last time I was under the car.
I get the point about the intercooler at a standstill, but surely blowing air at it from a fan won't accurately represent a good rag on an open road
Quote from: wotugonado on June 4, 2018, 19:34
I get the point about the intercooler at a standstill, but surely blowing air at it from a fan won't accurately represent a good rag on an open road
No it doesn't. Hence it was 10deg colder when logging it on the way home. It's well within acceptable range but at an ambient temp of about 19deg, 41 seems like it could be a bit cooler. And that's low boost or no boost. Barely boosted it at all down the A1.
Does make for an interesting read though, some good points raised for people doing a home build.
Sent the first batch of logs to RRR and his immediate response after pleasantries was that IAT was still too high, even off boost, cruising down the motorway.
He says that it's very important. In the BTCC cars (slightly difference class but hey ho) a 1deg differences equates to 5hp.
So, he wants to see it as close to ambient as possible.
He suggested some improved ducting to the intercooler or perhaps a fan.
I think a bit of both might be in order.
I'll have a proper look on Ding Day and see what we can come up with.
Spoke to Greg today. What a bloke!! He recommended the same to me so that it's already sorted for when I get there.
I've ordered some ally sheet to make a scoop with some mesh to protect from crap. As he recommended.
I want to fit it Friday and log on the way to DD so hopefully will be able to let you see it and show results on sat!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/0f3ab990cadd3950b04d3c24ab3514a5.png)
Like this....ish
Nice one @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) . Nothing like a bit fast action. Hopefully you can get booked in soon. Did he give any indication?
@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) that'd be great. Your ingenuity is exactly what this needs.
The only concern I have is access as the IC pretty much sits at the same level as the TTE brace, so any "scoop" won't be viable. I'm not sure what the airflow under the car is like and if there's much to scoop up from there.
The only thing I canthink of is some thicker alu sheeting and do exactly as Dan suggests.At least it would force air up through the IC instead of from the top to the bottom diagonally.
If you go to google and type "site:spyderchat.com Turbo Toyota Motorsport (TTE) intercooler", it's the first three images.
I could be wrong byt from the looks of it, it looks like the fan used in the engine lid would fit nicely on the back of the intercooler.
Ive never actually looked at the TTE in detail.
That intercooler isn't brilliant is it :/.
This is going to be a pretty poor attempt at a description but how about a cheese grater type scoop. The Slicing part not the grating part.
I imagine a plate that would be the rough size of the intercooler. With fins twisted 45 so they sit into the airflow. The back of the scoop would be sealed to the IC to force air through it.
And yes by the way. Penciled in for June 23rd. Confirming it tomorrow.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180605/ff851722c4d111859c1d2f01c003a910.jpg)
Sorry about the artistic skills but,
A picture paints a thousand words.
Unless it's dans....then it paints two.
I've done a lot of work in my career with heat exchangers (in the alternate energy biz). Air to air is very difficult to get close to ambient. There are a few tricks I learned....
Interesting little problem.
Will you lot just fit bloomin chargecoolers and be done with it.
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 5, 2018, 19:26
Will you lot just fit bloomin chargecoolers and be done with it.
I'd love to. I always knew it was better but never quite appreciated how much.
Next bonus :)
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2018, 19:27
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 5, 2018, 19:26
Will you lot just fit bloomin chargecoolers and be done with it.
I always knew it was better but never quite appreciated how much.
Do you blow on your finger when you burn them or run them under the tap?
That's what I ask people who think intercoolers are equal or better.
Intercooler cheaper and easier to package in a front engine car but chargecoolers are where it's at especially mid engine.
Even an air-to-liquid (charge cooler) has to dump heat to atmosphere at some point.
Heat exchange efficiency is a function of surface area, relative flow rate and temperature differential.
The trick is to maximise all those.... how you do it (which kit) is depends on what fits the best.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2018, 19:03
Nice one @dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) . Nothing like a bit fast action. Hopefully you can get booked in soon. Did he give any indication?
@Carolyn (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22891) that'd be great. Your ingenuity is exactly what this needs.
The only concern I have is access as the IC pretty much sits at the same level as the TTE brace, so any "scoop" won't be viable. I'm not sure what the airflow under the car is like and if there's much to scoop up from there.
The only thing I canthink of is some thicker alu sheeting and do exactly as Dan suggests.At least it would force air up through the IC instead of from the top to the bottom diagonally.
If you go to google and type "site:spyderchat.com Turbo Toyota Motorsport (TTE) intercooler", it's the first three images.
I could be wrong byt from the looks of it, it looks like the fan used in the engine lid would fit nicely on the back of the intercooler.
The fan can still be purchased new, I've bought one on eBay recently.
Spal axial fan va07-a12/c-58a 12v
About £65
Just had a look and doesn't look like it would fit at the back. It's too close to the gearbox.
So seems like the sheet metal "scoop" is the best option so far.
How much was the engine lid fan from headcase again?
Or do I just buy the fan above and do some cutting? ? Does it come with the thermostat switch?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2018, 20:15
Just had a look and doesn't look like it would fit at the back. It's too close to the gearbox.
So seems like the sheet metal "scoop" is the best option so far.
How much was the engine lid fan from headcase again?
Or do I just buy the fan above and do some cutting? ? Does it come with the thermostat switch?
Slow down... Let's take a good look on Ding Day and then figure it out... I have a few sneaky ideas up my sleeve.
Quote from: Carolyn on June 5, 2018, 20:34
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2018, 20:15
Just had a look and doesn't look like it would fit at the back. It's too close to the gearbox.
So seems like the sheet metal "scoop" is the best option so far.
How much was the engine lid fan from headcase again?
Or do I just buy the fan above and do some cutting? ? Does it come with the thermostat switch?
Slow down... Let's take a good look on Ding Day and then figure it out... I have a few sneaky ideas up my sleeve.
Ooohh.. Sneaky?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 5, 2018, 20:15
Just had a look and doesn't look like it would fit at the back. It's too close to the gearbox.
So seems like the sheet metal "scoop" is the best option so far.
How much was the engine lid fan from headcase again?
Or do I just buy the fan above and do some cutting? ? Does it come with the thermostat switch?
Not sure on headcases price as mine was part of the TTE kit originally. The thermostat switch is separate and not supplied with the the fan.
You could always go down the "toms air scoop" that the mk2 had... Hideous but probably dealt with the same issue..
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Just remembered something.
IAT is now being measured at the throttle body.
Before this weekend it was measured at the MAF, which is about 9 inches from the air filter.
When we came back from Newby Hall I commented that the intake temps were very high. So...
Intake temps were about 45-50 before turbo, and now they're 45-56 after turbo... So really the intercooler seems to be doing a decent job right?
Next steps are to wrap the intake pipes in heat reflective tape. It made a few degrees difference to my car and that's just wrapping about 10inches on pipe/maf housing.
Helen's pipework spans from behind the rear light, over the exhaust and cat and near the manifold, to the red hot turbo. And the turbo end of the charge pipe is awfully close to the cat as well.
Start at the basics... :)
Quote from: shnazzle on June 6, 2018, 07:52
Just remembered something.
IAT is now being measured at the throttle body.
Before this weekend it was measured at the MAF, which is about 9 inches from the air filter.
When we came back from Newby Hall I commented that the intake temps were very high. So...
Intake temps were about 45-50 before turbo, and now they're 45-56 after turbo... So really the intercooler seems to be doing a decent job right?
Next steps are to wrap the intake pipes in heat reflective tape. It made a few degrees difference to my car and that's just wrapping about 10inches on pipe/maf housing.
Helen's pipework spans from behind the rear light, over the exhaust and cat and near the manifold, to the red hot turbo. And the turbo end of the charge pipe is awfully close to the cat as well.
Start at the basics... :)
This is on my to do list as well. My intake from turbo to filter sits over the engine :/. What tape do you use out of curiosity?
I also need to knock up a heat shield for above the cat as that length of pipe right before the MAF is hottest to touch.
I have a roll of silver heat reflective tape. Gold is better of course but is about 20 quid a roll more expensive
I did notice that lol.
Not sure wether to wrap the exhaust or not.
Either way it won't be for a few weeks yet.
It's all about prep work for RRR now.
Quote from: dan944 on June 6, 2018, 08:28
I did notice that lol.
Not sure wether to wrap the exhaust or not.
Either way it won't be for a few weeks yet.
It's all about prep work for RRR now.
Woohoo!
Exciting times for us all.
Mind, Gregg did a sterling job at the configuration so that if temps get over 50 he starts pulling back on power.
So, even if you do go over, he's built in compensation.
In fact, he's built in such strong compensation that there's no overboost protection.
What I was surprised about was the lack of closed loop boost control. He uses open loop and compensation tables instead. It obviously works because it goes straight to the right boost level and holds it flat. I noticed a post on the ecumaster Facebook last night where that is said to be the best way to do it. So Greg's well in the loop (no pun intended) .
The VVTi map is far more detailed than other maps I've seen people put in. It's not just a case of "a bit more overlap here and there".
I spent a long time yesterday plowing through the map he built and it's rather impressive the level of detail he's gone into. I have no idea how he did all of that in the time he had.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 6, 2018, 08:58
Quote from: dan944 on June 6, 2018, 08:28
I did notice that lol.
Not sure wether to wrap the exhaust or not.
Either way it won't be for a few weeks yet.
It's all about prep work for RRR now.
Woohoo!
Exciting times for us all.
Mind, Gregg did a sterling job at the configuration so that if temps get over 50 he starts pulling back on power.
So, even if you do go over, he's built in compensation.
In fact, he's built in such strong compensation that there's no overboost protection.
What I was surprised about was the lack of closed loop boost control. He uses open loop and compensation tables instead. It obviously works because it goes straight to the right boost level and holds it flat. I noticed a post on the ecumaster Facebook last night where that is said to be the best way to do it. So Greg's well in the loop (no pun intended) .
The VVTi map is far more detailed than other maps I've seen people put in. It's not just a case of "a bit more overlap here and there".
I spent a long time yesterday plowing through the map he built and it's rather impressive the level of detail he's gone into. I have no idea how he did all of that in the time he had.
I imagine some of it came from the lotus so imhe may have had vvti maps etc already to hand.
He did mention he used to work for lotus whilst on the phone. Just bought some of the gold stuff. Might do it on the weekend. But at the same time I'd like to log temps after each mod to see the difference made so I can advise on if it's worth it or not.
Quote from: dan944 on June 6, 2018, 09:01
Quote from: shnazzle on June 6, 2018, 08:58
Quote from: dan944 on June 6, 2018, 08:28
I did notice that lol.
Not sure wether to wrap the exhaust or not.
Either way it won't be for a few weeks yet.
It's all about prep work for RRR now.
Woohoo!
Exciting times for us all.
Mind, Gregg did a sterling job at the configuration so that if temps get over 50 he starts pulling back on power.
So, even if you do go over, he's built in compensation.
In fact, he's built in such strong compensation that there's no overboost protection.
What I was surprised about was the lack of closed loop boost control. He uses open loop and compensation tables instead. It obviously works because it goes straight to the right boost level and holds it flat. I noticed a post on the ecumaster Facebook last night where that is said to be the best way to do it. So Greg's well in the loop (no pun intended) .
The VVTi map is far more detailed than other maps I've seen people put in. It's not just a case of "a bit more overlap here and there".
I spent a long time yesterday plowing through the map he built and it's rather impressive the level of detail he's gone into. I have no idea how he did all of that in the time he had.
I imagine some of it came from the lotus so imhe may have had vvti maps etc already to hand.
He did mention he used to work for lotus whilst on the phone. Just bought some of the gold stuff. Might do it on the weekend. But at the same time I'd like to log temps after each mod to see the difference made so I can advise on if it's worth it or not.
Grab yourself one of these or something similar
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-laser-guided-infrared-thermometer.html
Very handy
My scoop looks nothing like intended. It's now a scoop/ diffuser. Haha. Very marmite.
Quote from: dan944 on June 8, 2018, 18:55
My scoop looks nothing like intended. It's now a scoop/ diffuser. Haha. Very marmite.
Does it work?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 8, 2018, 20:11
Quote from: dan944 on June 8, 2018, 18:55
My scoop looks nothing like intended. It's now a scoop/ diffuser. Haha. Very marmite.
Does it work?
I don't know hahahaha.
Guess I'll find out tomorrow. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180608/9b5e52bc8df22d74c4b5b8f41241b18f.heic)