Hi folks, I have been back and forth as to which route to go! I've watched some interesting videos on utube and still can't decide! The turbo seems to deliver power gains right through the range and the 2zz at the top of the range. However, the 2zz would likely be more reliable if I was to thrash the life out of the car. They seem to be around the same price, unless you decide to go big on the turbo. Any thoughts? I'm not going to be installing myself so those costs would have to come into it too.
Plenty said on this already.
They're so different you need to drive one to see what you like.
Remeber not all 2zz swaps make the power you would expect.
I was reckoning a 2zz would deliver around 190hp, and perhaps a bit more with some other mods. A turbo should produce quite a bit more though and the turbo's are pretty small so lag/spool shouldn't really be much of an issue. It's a big decision and it isn't cheap, so I need to make the right one! Lol
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 14:02
I was reckoning a 2zz would deliver around 190hp, and perhaps a bit more with some other mods. A turbo should produce quite a bit more though and the turbo's are pretty small so lag/spool shouldn't really be much of an issue. It's a big decision and it isn't cheap, so I need to make the right one! Lol
Personally. After just doing a turbo conversion. The work is soooo much easier than an engine lift. That's including fitting a fake moroso sump etc. mines currently running 5psi actuator pressure on a gt2554, road tuned by myself (badly) and I reckon it's not too far off giving a 2zz a run for its money.
Although maybe not mikeks lol.
Definitely not a decision to rush into. I agree that test drives/rides would be the next best step.
They are going to be very different driving experiences so you need to know what you are looking for.
If I was looking for more power I would be seeing what comes up secondhand and looking at everything available.You have just missed a turbo coming up for sale.
As said above. You need to drive/ get a ride in both as they are very different.
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) I think after Saturday I will be doing very well to stay anywhere near you!!!! Although I'm hoping after my visit I might be a little bit closer!
Quote from: mikek on June 19, 2018, 16:31
As said above. You need to drive/ get a ride in both as they are very different.
@dan944 (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14286) I think after Saturday I will be doing very well to stay anywhere near you!!!! Although I'm hoping after my visit I might be a little bit closer!
I'm getting worried about Saturday but your right. Until you supercharge that is :)
It's all about what you want to achieve. And remember to look into the future. If you can see your self having a power trip then sticking NA may not be best. If a little boost and great reliability is what ya want...scream away!!! :)
I saw the turbo stuff for sale but wasn't in a position too buy it at the time, plus I remain a bit undecided. Dan keeps saying how easy it was to install a turbo but it's all the sourcing of parts that would do my head in! I'd want them all at once so I could begin! The only full turbo kits that I see for sale are in the states which I'm sure aren't cheap shipping over here. The local tuning shop thought a Subaru Impreza turbo might work nicely but I'm unsure. I don't want to be without the car for months on end either, especially with summer coming up!
If you use the list I've knocked up you can purchase the parts virtually in a oner. The only thing I imported was the manifold and it was the second most expensive item. But it is sexy. And took 5 day's :0.
But I'd recommend driving them first.
And don't buy a kit!!! Lol. Soooo not worth it.
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 14:02
I was reckoning a 2zz would deliver around 190hp, and perhaps a bit more with some other mods.
They make 189 box fresh from Toyota.
A secondhand engine with 100k on it will loose some.
Then there is intake and exhaust which is crucial to get right.
We have had a few members who have felt completely underwhelmed by 2zz swaps.
MikeK's is definitely running well and I would suggest following in his footsteps to get the best from a 2zz.
V6 is the best anyway. :-*
I see there is a company in Rugby that sells the whole 2zz conversion for around £2500, then it needs fitting. I think I'd be happy to spend about £3k on fitting a good turbo though. I get what you mean about trying them first but there aren't any here in NI lol I'm a lone warrior over here!
Ahhh. Of course you are.
How power hungry are?/anticipated to be?
Dan I think I'm about the only NI member! You actually see very very few Mr2s here. I think I'd like to go around 250bhp, not that power hungry....yet lol I suppose after a while you'd get used to it and want more!
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 20:49
Dan I think I'm about the only NI member! You actually see very very few Mr2s here. I think I'd like to go around 250bhp, not that power hungry....yet lol I suppose after a while you'd get used to it and want more!
If 250 is your starting point and you're likely to want more than it might be an idea to start with a 2ZZ and either turbo or Rotrex it...
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I must be using the search function wrongly or something, I can't find Dan's Turbo Build! I had considered tubroing a 2zz but then my brain said "how much?" Lol
Can you put any other engines into a 2? Like a 3L Alfa V6 or something?
You need to drive both they are completely different beasts.
Dans Turbo Build
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=15578&share_tid=64595&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emr2roc%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D64595&share_type=t
Apparently Audi v8 is t that hard ;)
Cheers Dan! Audi V8 it is then lol I would like to try them guys, but just don't have the capacity to do it! From watching stuff on utube the Turbo seems to be the more fun though and more powerful!
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 21:08
Can you put any other engines into a 2? Like a 3L Alfa V6 or something?
V8s
4.2 Audi
V6's
2GR
1MZ
V4's
1ZZ
2ZZ
K20
Take your pick...
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Let's not forget Megillian's 1.8 VAG turbo conversion. He's about 80% there.
Talk about tuneability. 300hp+ easy peasy
What other cars have you driven or what car convoy want your 2 to be like.
With a 2zz it is going to be S2000 like.
With a V6 more like a Boxster.
Not sure what it would be like with a 250bhp turbo but bloody quick remember these cars can weigh as little as 950kg with that sort of power you are looking at Boxster GTS territory.
Anything over 200bhp and these things fly.
You should have come to ding day. 2zz/turbo/V6 all there plus an Elise a Cayman S and a Z4 to benchmark them against.
Quote from: 1979scotte on June 19, 2018, 21:20
What other cars have you driven or what car do you want your 2 to be like.
With a 2zz it is going to be S2000 like.
With a V6 more like a Boxster.
Not sure what it would be like with a 250bhp turbo but bloody quick remember these cars can weigh as little as 950kg with that sort of power you are looking at Boxster GTS territory.
Anything over 200bhp and these things fly.
You should have come to ding day. 2zz/turbo/V6 all there plus an Elise a Cayman S and a Z4 to benchmark them against.
I've had a shed load of cars over the years from Jaguar XK8 to STI impezas, I'm just looking for something with a bit of punch to get the juices flowing! Lol I had to ditch all my 'enjoyable' cars when the kids arrived and so my weekend mr2 is my little bit of pleasure! I would have loved to have gone to Ding Day but I'm a 24/7 dad and it's hard to get any time. That's kind of why I was looking at just buying a turbo kit and getting the local tuning garage to fit it as I just don't have the hours in the day to shop and try and install.
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 21:29
I've had a shed load of cars over the years from Jaguar XK8 to STI impezas, I'm just looking for something with a bit of punch to get the juices flowing! Lol I had to ditch all my 'enjoyable' cars when the kids arrived and so my weekend mr2 is my little bit of pleasure! I would have loved to have gone to Ding Day but I'm a 24/7 dad and it's hard to get any time. That's kind of why I was looking at just buying a turbo kit and getting the local tuning garage to fit it as I just don't have the hours in the day to shop and try and install.
You'll enjoy a turbo and if you don't it's easy to remove and sell.
Same can't be said of an engine swap.
If you can do the shop based on Dan's list and take it to get installed, you can get the best of both worlds with minimal effort.
The kits generally just aren't very good. Or rather, not complete. The only benefit is you tend to get a bit of discount based on the fact that they likely stock a lot of the kit elements.
But, regardless, the majority of the cost is in the engine management solution. It's the key to success for a turbo/supercharger.
A 2zz with stg1 cams will just run off the stock celica ecu. Saves a lot of cash.
Mike's build is rather tasty but it is the cream of the 2zz crop; best manifold, best gearbox, lightened flywheel, high flow exhaust, Stg2 cams, and soon to have a standalone ecu.
It's a great showcase for what a 2zz N/A can be, but not really a fair benchmark :)
How much would all Mike's 2zz work come in at? And how much power would it be putting out? I've heard the 2zz only really comes alive at the top end?
DIY Turbo component sourcing thread!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=15578&share_tid=60702&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emr2roc%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D60702&share_type=t
Here's what if said I'd show you. Obviously you have to consider Engine management.
I've not been in mikes 2zzyet but heard it and it's lovely. And. EASILY keeps up with mine at the moment.
What do you want? I get turbo chatter at city driving levels. The 2zz probably won't be noticeable At those conditions without a lightened flywheel. They are very different.
Quote from: michaelb on June 19, 2018, 22:50
How much would all Mike's 2zz work come in at? And how much power would it be putting out? I've heard the 2zz only really comes alive at the top end?
Too much!!
Cams £700 + fitting
Lightened flywheel £250 + fitting
Custom maf pipe and bmc cda £300
Exhaust and manifold £700
Mr2 lsd and 6th gear swap £350 + celica box.
Standalone £1200
Then you need a good 2zz engine and someone to convert it
Really didn't want to add that lot up! (:< >:)
From everything I can work out and summary of lots of other opinion: it all depends on what you want it for and how you want to drive it - if you're tracking it and/or willing to keep it between 6000rpm and 8000rpm, then a 2ZZ is a great option and the most straight forward engine swap, but aside from a slight nudge from the supporting mods (airflow: manifold, exhaust, remapping, etc) you're going to be on stock 1ZZ torque (and power, duh!) until the lift kicks in >6000rpm, after that a 2ZZ will leave a 1ZZ in the dust!
Rotrex is a great way of getting >200bhp, including a solid swell of torque through the rev range, but it's expensive: theoretically ~£5000, but more likely £6000-£7000. Progressive delivery of lots of power, but the hardware is pricey.
Turbo can get to ~200bhp at the flywheel on a dyno for £2500-£3000 (incl install and some rolling road time) and you'll need ~£4000-£4500 to get 220bhp-ish at the wheels and to get that reliably in all conditions and smoothly (i.e. good ECU + map, charge cooler, turbo timer, etc). The power won't be as progressive as the Rotrex, but my money is currently on a good, SMALL turbo that spools fast and don't aim too high - so you have a chance to get used to the power before deciding if you want more... having driving a turbo that was dialed RIGHT down, even a small amount of extra toque in these cars makes them feel VERY different.
A built engine + either of the above can be pushed a lot further, especially the turbo - 300bhp probably possible, but anything over ~240lb/ft torque and you will been needing significantly better clutch and gearbox, so it all depends on what your budget is. Maybe aim for below this level at the first stage before you decide how much more you want - I know that's what I'm going to do!
If you're aiming for a lightweight 250bhp+, then it is probably worth considering a K20 swap (more tunable) or if you don't mind a bit of extra weight, then the V6's open up that 250bhp-300bhp level of resistance a LOT (2GR's can get well over 300bhp - a lot more with the right FI).... but they all come with their complications and extra risks.
Cheers guys, I'm going to have to find some time to just think about all this! I always enjoy the feel from a well tuned n/a engine but I'm keen to push the boundaries a bit too with a turbo! Thanks for the list Dan, really useful! Budget will also be an issue!
Quote from: michaelb on June 20, 2018, 07:12
Cheers guys, I'm going to have to find some time to just think about all this! I always enjoy the feel from a well tuned n/a engine but I'm keen to push the boundaries a bit too with a turbo! Thanks for the list Dan, really useful! Budget will also be an issue!
Hats fine mate.
My budget became a flickering light in the distance :(. I well and truly went over lol.
I feel like, if I'm going to spend the money, I want the car to keep up or be faster than it's expensive counterparts - s2000, boxster s etc. I'm not sure I could justify spending thousands and it still isn't as fast as those cars.
Quote from: michaelb on June 20, 2018, 07:32
I feel like, if I'm going to spend the money, I want the car to keep up or be faster than it's expensive counterparts - s2000, boxster s etc. I'm not sure I could justify spending thousands and it still isn't as fast as those cars.
Depends where. I readily smoked living shizzle out of a boxster s on a twisty road. A lot of it comes down to driver.
Pub bragging rights are easily achieved by turbo.
Dan's install, once mapped, will put it in Boxster S territory on straight line and smoke a s2000 without breaking a sweat.
Personally, while I absolutely love the wife's turbo mr2, 80% of the time my stock 1zz will keep up on a run out. The average hatchback these days is so powerful that it's not even worth getting into willy waving on public roads. Hell a 2.0 VW white van with a remap will push over 250bhp.
That's not where mr2s "live".
The only reason I very often think of going turbo is for more effortless overtaking on motorways.
Think power to weight rather than pure bhp.
My V6 is still 200 kg lighter than a boxster and an s2000 doesn't handle like a 2.
Perhaps you should consider another car if it's just outright power you are looking for.
I've been in a supercharged vx220 and a Cayman S and I know I prefer my 2.
It fits in a niche that I am happy with.
My favourite straight line blaster so far is our old Audi A5 3.0 tdi v6.
That was a thing of beauty.
So freakin fast from standstill and in any gear, any rpm.
Effortless and shames pretty much anything you come across.
Handled remarkably well even on b-roads
And all with 35ish mpg.
Took an RS5 for a blast and was massively underwhelmed and was happy to get back in the A5.
Other than the far superior handling of RS5.
What I'm getting at in the middle of my rambling is that it's torque that gives you that rush.
And it seems like that's what you're after.
So turbo/supercharger or v6 is the way forward.
1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.
I had an rs4 a few years ago, and loved it, with the exception of the interior lol. I want to keep my 2 as I love the go kart feel it delivers, I just want a bit more power to push me back into the seat in a straight line. The 2 is a lovely looking motor and should go as quick as it looks! I know what you mean shnazzle about cars these days but the 2 feels faster as your sitting so low and it would out turn almost anything. I just want a bit more POWER!! Lol
Sounding like you are saying turbo!
I wouldnt go too far though as it will become something different ie a temperamental modified car
(I am a bit concerned that Patrick has been TWOCing his daughters bike, we know how thats going to end....).
Quote from: Topdownman on June 20, 2018, 14:43
Sounding like you are saying turbo!
I wouldnt go too far though as it will become something different ie a temperamental modified car
(I am a bit concerned that Patrick has been TWOCing his daughters bike, we know how thats going to end....).
It's been more than a year Simon!
The forum never forgets...
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Sorry, thought it was another offence!
Quote from: shnazzle on June 20, 2018, 12:26
1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.
Harsh....but fair :thebird:
Quote from: mikek on June 20, 2018, 16:13
Quote from: shnazzle on June 20, 2018, 12:26
1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.
Harsh....but fair :thebird:
Yours has torque! Ish.
But yours is not your average bear now is it?
Yeah I think its turbo all the way for me.. I was just kidding myself about a 2zz lol
Definitely sounds like you want a 250 bhp turbo.
@headcase (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18226) does a kit that looks good?
Quote from: shnazzle on June 20, 2018, 16:16
Quote from: mikek on June 20, 2018, 16:13
Quote from: shnazzle on June 20, 2018, 12:26
1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.
Harsh....but fair :thebird:
Yours has torque! Ish.
But yours is not your average bear now is it?
Who wants to be average?
I'd settle for being average :(
Quote from: michaelb on June 20, 2018, 13:23
I had an rs4 a few years ago, and loved it, with the exception of the interior lol. I want to keep my 2 as I love the go kart feel it delivers, I just want a bit more power to push me back into the seat in a straight line. The 2 is a lovely looking motor and should go as quick as it looks! I know what you mean shnazzle about cars these days but the 2 feels faster as your sitting so low and it would out turn almost anything. I just want a bit more POWER!! Lol
Yep you want a turbo.
They feel quick because of that sudden torque delivery.
Doesn't always help the handling though.
I suppose that would depend on the lag, that was the big problem with the original 911, the turbo would kick in without warning and send you spinning! Lol
Which is easier to insure, a 2zz or a turbo 1zz?
Quote from: Eddie on June 21, 2018, 22:02
Which is easier to insure, a 2zz or a turbo 1zz?
My current insurance is/was happy to insure me for the same price I pay now for a 2zz up to 190bhp.
So, on that basis, I suspect turbo would be more.
But Helen @HereComesTheWife pays the same as I do for her turbo vs my stock
Just thinking here...
Most of us want the car to last quite a while.
Which means that consideration for a well supported engine is probably key.
That would probably mean a K20? .... But then that has to be balanced with the plug and play ability of the 2zz... Just musing really!
I'd still say that bang for buck is turbo... just don't get suckered into big turbo's that give you great peak numbers (pub/dyno bragging rights), but an undriveable torque curve that only spools at high RPM and unbalances the car mid-corner.
@michaelb (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24962) - did you saw what your budget was (ideal / max)?
1. Get mahle pistons.
2. Get 2zz swap package with no header and exhaust.
3. Swap pistons + head bolts + lift bolts + 1zz oil pan + some bearings.
4. Stick 2zz engine in the car.
5. Turbo it with 3 different maps:
- Show off map.
- Sensible daily driver map.
- Whatever you like map.
This is what i would do. There is no definitive answer for the question coz you have lots of options - 1zz turbo/2zz/2zz turbo/couple of v6 options/k20/k24 frank - 250-300 hp NA power/k24 frank with turbo - 1k hp with deep pockets/v8 audi engine. Left to right you are swapping more and more stuff from the car and the difficulty increases, also the cash that you are throwing on the car increases to some numbers that will get you a GTR with aftermarket upgrades.
Easy one - making 230 hp with stock 1zz engine and Chinese turbo plus the group buy standalone ECU - cheapest reliable.
Doable one in my book no crazy fabrication need - If you pick to fully forge 1zz it will run you the same money as 2zz swap with upgraded pistons and bolts. 2zz with the above parts and low boost ~ 12 psi will make reliable 350 hp and depending on your right foot and your tune the tranny will hold or not.
BahnStormer I think I could stretch to around £3.5k before installation.
Turbo
Thanks Shnazzle!
Haha. Why say more when one word suffices eh?
Quote from: Eddie on June 21, 2018, 22:02
Which is easier to insure, a 2zz or a turbo 1zz?
My turbo came in at almost half the price to insure as it did stock :-\
LeeTheSparky covered this last year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIs-_pCEZo&t=5s
Look up DannyDC2 on the dreaded Youtube & have a butchers at his black k20 in action.
If I had my time (and cash) again I'd be wholeheartedly heading down that route. I do love the 2zz engine, it's always about the driving experience than outright power, but the k20 is a savage beast when tuned properly.
You then have the option to throw a tubby in the mix, should the need arise :)
I've had my 2ZZ'd 2 up n running for nearly 2 years now. I love it, but I think one thing it lacks is fueling fine tuning, and maybe stage 2 cams. I think these would make the engine feel more potent, more of the time.
I think a turbo car would probably be better for road driving though.