Didn't want to dirty up my reader's ride until I know what I'm doing sooo...
I've covered this 100x before but it's crunch time;
What will come next for my lovely sable?
Here are some premises:
- This car is my daily
- I love the 1zz. It's a great little block and I love how it behaves in the b-roads. Really can't fault it. Unfortunately wringing its little neck is not what it has been built for.
- I have access to a very nice turbo mr2 that now drives like a peach. Everything about the drive is highly addictive. I've never used it as a daily driver though. The stg2 clutch can get very wearing after miles of traffic.
- I have driven two 2zz conversions; miles apart from each other but also thousands of pounds apart as well. Bog standard and stg2 cammed with perfect exhaust. The former left me a bit cold. A 1zz with a higher rpm limit. The latter had me grinning ear to ear for a long time.
- I'm not bl00dy Rockefeller so no v6 or k20 for me. Not really my thing anyway.
- As I said...I'm not Rockefeller.
Here are my thoughts so far:
1) Rebuild 1zz
I would do this either myself with the help of our lovely Carolyn, if she were willing. So I'd learn a hell of a lot and know what was in it. Full confidence. Full rebuild with new ancilliaries. Solid for at least another 85k miles of punishment. I'd add a good manifold, new cat and likely stg1 cams and lightened flywheel. Alternatively, I could rebuild and get the front of the car resprayed, which is desperately needed, and a general refurb of some of the underbody items (fresh bushes etc).
2) Swap to 2zz
2a) Option 1
Buy a "kit" for £2500 and fit myself. Pay extra for LSD and gear swaps. Put in stg1 cams with money saved
2b) Option 2
Get Rogue to install it. Likely the taller end of £4k but having seen their work, I know it would be a good solid conversion. Drive in, drive out.
2c) Option 3
Wait for a 2zz car, built to my needs and known good runner, comes up for sale. Buy and swap over after some basic servicing and checks.
3) Turbo
I've historically discounted this due to the "fun" we had with Helen's turbo, which was enough to put anybody off a turbo. But now that it's sorted and we know a standalone is key to 100% satisfaction, it has made it very interesting again. Dan's build helped as well!
The benefits are that it's 100% detachable so can recover the costs, and the low-down torque is there which is what I miss as a daily
BUT...I'd need to rebuild my engine. So that's a big overhead. So this build would stand me at about 6k. Unless someone can tell me different. I just don't see this being feasible within my budget.
4) Supercharge
Se7en makes a very jazzy rotrex kit for the 1zz but comes in at 4700. So, also 6k by the time I'm done with all parts required (clutch, exhaust, etc)
5) V6 or K20
Too expensive and just not my thing
6) 1,8t VAG engine
This has been looming but no sign of it yet from Steve Norris at Megillian. This is one other big swap that really has got my interest. Who knows what the costs will be though. Should I hold out? It's a huge change but I can totally see this engine being an amazing match for the 2.
Sounds like you need to man-up and make a decision!
Just go the cheapest 2zz route, if you dont like it you can change or upgrade it later. Maybe you could rebuild the donor engine yourself ovrr the winter and then you could buy any cheap donor knowing you were going to rebuild anyway.
Given that you have access to a turbo and arent desparately wanting one yourself, that says something doesnt it?
Quote from: Topdownman on July 6, 2018, 14:55
Sounds like you need to man-up and make a decision!
I like that quote!!!! haha
But i agree with Simon. The best bet is to rebuild an engine and put it in. Whether that is another 1zz with a turbo attached or a 2zz thats up to you!
But then you get the option to build an engine while still driving yours, and in theory would be a quicker swap.
I know you had bad luck with the Celica you picked up last time, but there will be a decent one out there, that you could even drive for a bit before dismantling, you just have to find it!
I'm happy with my 1zz, but doesn't get driven enough now! :( But I'd still go V6 if I ever did change!
I think that Simon has a good point... you have access to Jack yet are still wondering if you'd like it for yourself... and seem to enjoy the act of "wringing" to get more power out of your current car.
Go for 2ZZ with lightened flywheel, Cams, and a standalone ECU... I think it suits your character.
Buy the "Kit" and take it to Carolyns for appropriate oversight whilst you fit the cams and do a light rebuild (if needed) but general inspection would be good.
Fit and enjoy with you existing 2001 ECU and then take it to RRR for standalone and mapping at a later date when you have the better exhaust etc.
1 or 3 for me personally, and I guess 3 would be if you've not got explicit permission to use Helen's :)
You've got more NSL roads near you than I have, but the 2ZZ argument for me would come down to whether you can get it up to that rev range on a regular basis to enjoy it.
I can reply whats the best thing to do for me:
First id collect parts and stick a Chinese knockoff turbo for a start. You can pick decent turbo for little money so the biggest investment will be the ECU that you can use later too. So this gives you the same as Helen's car for not so much cash. I can do this for as little as 2.2k around here with the mapping. Im willing to help with finding turbo and balancing it so it will be way cheaper than UK prices.
Wanting more power i see two valuable choices:
1. Replace the 1zz with 2zz and RRR to do their magic again so you can have 300 horses and not blow your engine.
1.1. Build 2zz, swap the 3rd and 4th gear for something stronger and bump the power to almost 400 horses. At that level you should be totally satisfied with the car.
2. Build 1zz with forged parts and have again 300 horses.
That way the monies are stretch into time and it will not be all at once. And also in the process you would be able to sell couple of parts that wont be needed anymore.
P.S. I love the sound of 2zz when its in lift so prolly 2zz with divided T4 manifold and ERF 7163 turbo.
P.S.2 It can be Saab turbo but not Chinese knockoff but most likely it will need a rebuild. Chinese one will need balancing so both will come to almost the same money.
One thing you missed was option 4.5
Rebuild engine and Supercharge using Carolyn's build for inspiration
Quote from: Essex2Visuvesi on July 6, 2018, 16:09
One thing you missed was option 4.5
Rebuild engine and Supercharge using Carolyn's build for inspiration
I have considered this. It's a great kit and it just needs mapping and some bits and bobs.
Standalone, cooling.. That's all I can remember.
As for a fresh turbo build; it's just not feasible financially for me. 2.2k is a pipe dream for a good build.
I'm sure Helen will let me drive hers when I need that buzz.
I like the idea of the 2zz kit and then getting it checked over (and fitted?) at Carolyn's? Again... Depending on whether she will, wants to, can, etc.
My engine with cams was £1700 from Sam Nadheem. Total cost of swap was £3000 through Sam but with rogue doing the work including the gearbox work and airbox. Exhaust £700 including manifold and wrap. Lightened flywheel was £225.
You seemed to love driving my car.....
Get a 2zz. Rebuild it. Install it with all the nice bits. You have the skills and enough people to help. You have something to base your build on that you know works. It won't be that expensive and you can drive your car untill the engine is ready. It's bulletproof once it's done. And before Scotte chimes in about torque you can always steal/borrow Helens.
Upgrades at a later date...turbo, supercharge or the new se7en itb's
Simples!
Quote from: mikek on July 6, 2018, 17:11
My engine with cams was £1700 from Sam Nadheem. Total cost of swap was £3000 through Sam but with rogue doing the work including the gearbox work and airbox. Exhaust £700 including manifold and wrap. Lightened flywheel was £225.
You seemed to love driving my car.....
Get a 2zz. Rebuild it. Install it with all the nice bits. You have the skills and enough people to help. You have something to base your build on that you know works. It won't be that expensive and you can drive your car untill the engine is ready. It's bulletproof once it's done. And before Scotte chimes in about torque you can always steal/borrow Helens.
Upgrades at a later date...turbo, supercharge or the new se7en itb's
Simples!
Hmm.. That's not as bad as I thought.
I could always add the cams and ecu later, as mentioned above.
Does Sam/Rogue do anything to the engine before fitting? Or just shove it in?
After a long talk with my very sensible (and still petrol-head-influenced) wife, I've made a decision I'm very happy with.
My goal would be something like Mike's build. You're right, I absolutely loved driving yours. It's everything I'd want mine to be.
However... I just can't justify the costs.
Also, I can't justify spending all that on an engine I didn't know into a car that really could do with a bit of a spruce-up of some of the suspension and other aged components.
"wouldn't decorate a room with a leaky roof",as Helen said.
There's a hell of a lot of sense in that.
So.
1zz rebuild.
All fresh parts.
Stg1 cams.
Good manifold.
Fix up my TTE exhaust (straighten up pipes for once and maybe repack)
Sort out rusty and aged components (replace or refurb)
If I have cash left, front respray.
BOOM!
A feel a little let down with your sensibility.
I wanted to hear 2zz or at the very least turbo.
At least you'll get to learn how to rebuild an engine though :) I will be doing the same shortly. Pick up my freebie oil burner on Thursday.
Haha sorry to disappoint.
Fact of the matter is, the amount of times I'd use/enjoy the power gain of the 2zz over that of a fresh cammed 1zz versus the cash required just doesn't add up.
Add in things like needing the respray the front of the car and fix up aged bits... Makes too much sense.
Also. I have new wheels, a freshly upholstered interior, etc. Bit of a shame for some of it to be rusting to bits and being a collection of stone chips.
When I need the buzz, I've got 235hp at my disposal with Helen's permission.
Admittedly, as it's my daily, that buzz can easily be satisfied by an occasional blast in hers.
I'm often more jealous of the great state of her car underneath than the turbo.
Besides; 1zz, stg1 cams, good manifold, sports cat.. I'm still looking at a healthy power increase. Maybe 165 haha
Tried to find answer but think I'd be searching for ages ....
What is wrong with your current 1ZZ? / Why does it need the rebuild?
@HereComesTheWife (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23368) Well done Helen for donning the sensible pants and setting him straight! I like the no nonsense decorating analogy. :)
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356) I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun. I get lots of driving Banana. Sometimes spirited, sometimes not. I have thought about power upgrades myself over the years. Came to the conclusion, she does just what she needs to. No need to worry about lift bolts, intake temperatures, remapping or wastegates. Simples. :)
Quote from: frogger on July 6, 2018, 23:48
Tried to find answer but think I'd be searching for ages ....
What is wrong with your current 1ZZ? / Why does it need the rebuild?
It's done 85k and it's sounding a bit worse for wear. It does get its fair share of abuse. It had a funny do not long ago where it was running like a dog, coolant was disappearing (and reappearing) and generally sounding like it was going to die.
Then it decided to work again... No clue what happened. In any case it's time for a refresh
Quote from: StuC on July 6, 2018, 23:50
@HereComesTheWife (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=23368) Well done Helen for donning the sensible pants and setting him straight! I like the no nonsense decorating analogy. :)
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356) I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun. I get lots of driving Banana. Sometimes spirited, sometimes not. I have thought about power upgrades myself over the years. Came to the conclusion, she does just what she needs to. No need to worry about lift bolts, intake temperatures, remapping or wastegates. Simples. :)
This is it! No hassle. Just a reliable, sound 1zz, with a few tweaks to my liking.
If I spend 2k on the build, I'll be a happy camper.
Hell the stg1 cams could even wait, in favour of a respray or new parts (suspension, universals joints, brake pipes, etc etc.) , as they're easy enough to drop in later.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 6, 2018, 23:33
Haha sorry to disappoint.
Fact of the matter is, the amount of times I'd use/enjoy the power gain of the 2zz over that of a fresh cammed 1zz versus the cash required just doesn't add up.
Add in things like needing the respray the front of the car and fix up aged bits... Makes too much sense.
Also. I have new wheels, a freshly upholstered interior, etc. Bit of a shame for some of it to be rusting to bits and being a collection of stone chips.
When I need the buzz, I've got 235hp at my disposal with Helen's permission.
Admittedly, as it's my daily, that buzz can easily be satisfied by an occasional blast in hers.
I'm often more jealous of the great state of her car underneath than the turbo.
Besides; 1zz, stg1 cams, good manifold, sports cat.. I'm still looking at a healthy power increase. Maybe 165 haha
Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?
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So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 7, 2018, 07:47
Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, watch this space, see my question below :)
The stg1 cars I know so far have a flatter and higher torque curve. More usable mid-range
Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Timescales are about 6 months ish. Depending on logistics.
I do have question:
Can someone tell me the difference between stg1 and Stg2 cams?
Other than that Stg2 requires valves a springs.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 08:15
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 7, 2018, 07:47
Out of interest what difference do the stage 1 cams on a standard ECU make?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, watch this space, see my question below :)
The stg1 cars I know so far have a flatter and higher torque curve. More usable mid-range
Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Timescales are about 6 months ish. Depending on logistics.
I do have question:
Can someone tell me the difference between stg1 and Stg2 cams?
Other than that Stg2 requires valves a springs.
Watching, waiting, antici-pating...
Bearing in mind the upcoming winter rebuild.
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Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with
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Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 08:24
Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with
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Nice to see you're prepared to make sacrifices for his happiness Helen...
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Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 08:24
Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Lol!
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 08:24
Quote from: Topdownman on July 7, 2018, 08:02
So, that was quite painless wasnt it?
Now, time to talk timescales........
Might have been painless for you Simon [emoji4] he wasn't allowed to go to bed until he made decision he was happy with
Lovin' your work.
Sometimes it's a carrot and sometimes you need the stick! :bowdown:
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
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Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
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... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:28
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
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... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
And now you've gone too far
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Stage 1 is specifically designed for standard ecu etc. MWR are adamant that stage 2 is much better if you have a different ecu. Tuned properly they lose nothing to the stage 1 low down but gain at the top end. You do need stiffer valve springs.
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:33
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:28
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
And now you've gone too far
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His watch! I really liked his watch!
Sick people..
Quote from: lamcote on July 7, 2018, 09:38
Stage 1 is specifically designed for standard ecu etc. MWR are adamant that stage 2 is much better if you have a different ecu. Tuned properly they lose nothing to the stage 1 low down but gain at the top end. You do need stiffer valve springs.
Ah OK. So perhaps not worth the effort. Can always be done later
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:33
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:28
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
And now you've gone too far
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Way too far!
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:42
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:33
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:28
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
And now you've gone too far
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His watch! I really liked his watch!
Sick people..
I don't wear a watch :-\
Surely if you bought a cheap 2zz and rebuilt it it wouldn't cost much more than rebuilding your 1zz. Plus you wouldn't lose the use of your car?
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but I don't want my car to go missing
Poor Mike is having a bad morning, the den Oudstens have hit on him and threatened to steal his car
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Quote from: mikek on July 7, 2018, 11:44
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:42
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:33
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 09:28
Quote from: HereComesTheWife on July 7, 2018, 09:25
I think what he really wants is Mike's car, so if someone could distract mike at the next ding day it would be appreciated
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
... Maybe it's not his car I want....
;)
And now you've gone too far
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
His watch! I really liked his watch!
Sick people..
I don't wear a watch :-\
Maybe it was just your arms I was admiring then.
Anyway.
2zz rebuild is indeed the same cost and the engine is more solid. But for the 1zz I won't need a new exhaust, different cat, ecu, wiring changes, etc etc.
It's all the extra stuff you need for the 2zz that tips the balance. And for about 25ish extra horses...
I feel this is a head decision not a heart one.
You want a 2zz and even if you cam and rebuild you'll still want a 2zz.
Quote from: 1979scotte on July 7, 2018, 15:58
I feel this is a head decision not a heart one.
You want a 2zz and even if you cam and rebuild you'll still want a 2zz.
I agree...
What if you did the old parts refresh so you get the warm fuzzy feeling that something has changed. Whilst simultaneously acquiring a 2zz and ancillaries over a slightly longer time and like mike said you still have maximum use of the car except in say ...8months? You'll have a nice spec 2zz to drop in with the ancillaries to go with.
Nope that's the beauty of it. Helen's first question starter with "what do you WANT?". And we went from there.
And I shizzle you not... A nicely built up 1zz does make me happy. Look through my build thread and you'll see I always mentioned it.
Quote from: StuC on July 6, 2018, 23:50
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356) I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun.
Does not always seem to be a widely held opinion on here, but I agree. Might not be pretty quick in absolute terms, but can certainly feel it in the right circumstances and it's the feeling that counts.
Yes, in other circumstances (uphill + wrong gear + passenger) it can feel far from quick, but alot of the time you can take the stock car by the scruff of the neck and have a ball on a back road without the speeds getting too silly..........
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 7, 2018, 19:06
Quote from: StuC on July 6, 2018, 23:50
@shnazzle (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=18356) I know how you feel with respect to using a daily. A stock 2 on the right road with good conditions is still a pretty quick car. Certainly a lot of fun.
Does not always seem to be a widely held opinion on here, but I agree. Might not be pretty quick in absolute terms, but can certainly feel it in the right circumstances and it's the feeling that counts.
Yes, in other circumstances (uphill + wrong gear + passenger) it can feel far from quick, but alot of the time you can take the stock car by the scruff of the neck and have a ball on a back road without the speeds getting too silly..........
Exactly. I do think I have limitations as well. Last time I was on a track it was under very controlled circumstances with a car with every aid in the book.
The fact that I can bury the throttle and be reasonably sure nothing stupid will happen is very comforting.
As said by Highland Drive people, a stock 1zz in general will keep up with the v6 mr2s because of the handling and the fact that you can only physically go so fast on certain roads.
I find that on most 60 roads, doing 60 is a bit risky. N Northumberland anyway.
It's about what you use the car for and the maximum enjoyment per £ - If you are on the road for 99% of the time and its your daily driver, do you realy need more than a well sorted, well handling, and nice sounding 1zz ? the logical answer is no you dont - but, you are a bloke, so enjoy the journey wherever it takes you !!
It really is a bit annoying being left behind on the straights by almost any old diesel hatch though!
Quote from: lamcote on July 7, 2018, 21:30
It really is a bit annoying being left behind on the straights by almost any old diesel hatch though!
This was factored in. And you know what? I don't care :)
People on the road are now so aggressive and senseless that it's not even worth risking being assaulted at a traffic light or being run off a road.
Quote from: lamcote on July 7, 2018, 21:30
It really is a bit annoying being left behind on the straights by almost any old diesel hatch though!
And somewhere on a diesel hatch forum someone writes:
"It really is a bit annoying being left behind in the bends and at roundabouts by those poxy hairdresser MR2s " ;)
If you are going to rebuild and go Stage 1 cams & lightweight flywheel then in reality your only a sportscat and a remap away from mine
Yes 171 isn't in turbo or 2ZZ territory but when we went on the ROC trip to Paris I was keeping up with Nige and Nathan in their turbos on the spirited drive back
The power curve and delivery are really smooth and in over 25,000 miles I've covered 100% reliability so using new piston heads in your rebuild jobs a goodun.
Crower Stage 1 Cams (Monkey Wrench USA).
Fidanza lightweight flywheel
Zero - 4 into 2 Equal Length, tuned collector, Manifold SS.
Silverstone Performance De-cat pipe, fitted with 200 CEL Sports Cat.
Blueflame Custom Twin Exhaust.
PPE Cold Air Induction system
Apexi Power FC (ECU) with Commander hand controller
Mapping / Dyno by Noble Motorsport.
171 BHP - with dyno print out
Quote from: Bernie on July 8, 2018, 07:29
If you are going to rebuild and go Stage 1 cams & lightweight flywheel then in reality your only a sportscat and a remap away from mine
Yes 171 isn't in turbo or 2ZZ territory but when we went on the ROC trip to Paris I was keeping up with Nige and Nathan in their turbos on the spirited drive back
The power curve and delivery are really smooth and in over 25,000 miles I've covered 100% reliability so using new piston heads in your rebuild jobs a goodun.
Crower Stage 1 Cams (Monkey Wrench USA).
Fidanza lightweight flywheel
Zero - 4 into 2 Equal Length, tuned collector, Manifold SS.
Silverstone Performance De-cat pipe, fitted with 200 CEL Sports Cat.
Blueflame Custom Twin Exhaust.
PPE Cold Air Induction system
Apexi Power FC (ECU) with Commander hand controller
Mapping / Dyno by Noble Motorsport.
171 BHP - with dyno print out
Exactly. I will put the 200 cell sports cat on so really it's the standalone that will be the only difference. And that can be added at any time in the future. That's what unlocks most of the extra power anyway.
I've driven Bernie's and it is indeed lovely.
There's another side to this in that a rebuild will mean that if I ever feel flush in the future, I can add forced induction without having to worry about the state of the block.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 6, 2018, 14:17
1) Rebuild 1zz
I would do this either myself with the help of our lovely Carolyn, if she were willing. So I'd learn a hell of a lot and know what was in it. Full confidence. Full rebuild with new ancilliaries. Solid for at least another 85k miles of punishment. I'd add a good manifold, new cat and likely stg1 cams and lightened flywheel. Alternatively, I could rebuild and get the front of the car resprayed, which is desperately needed, and a general refurb of some of the underbody items (fresh bushes etc).
You know you're welcome to spend some time here and rebuild any engine you like. Maybe end up with a strong 1zz with a mini supercharger? I know where there's some kit ready to go... (still need an ECU and Greg's services, though).
Quote from: Carolyn on July 8, 2018, 08:19
Quote from: shnazzle on July 6, 2018, 14:17
1) Rebuild 1zz
I would do this either myself with the help of our lovely Carolyn, if she were willing. So I'd learn a hell of a lot and know what was in it. Full confidence. Full rebuild with new ancilliaries. Solid for at least another 85k miles of punishment. I'd add a good manifold, new cat and likely stg1 cams and lightened flywheel. Alternatively, I could rebuild and get the front of the car resprayed, which is desperately needed, and a general refurb of some of the underbody items (fresh bushes etc).
You know you're welcome to spend some time here and rebuild any engine you like. Maybe end up with a strong 1zz with a mini supercharger? I know where there's some kit ready to go... (still need an ECU and Greg's services, though).
Thanks Carolyn. It's definitely a case of logistics as I know I'd have to spend at least a full long weekend there.
I'll definitely be in touch :)
Also, Helen and I want to come down for some more Pod action under the supervision of an adult
Quote from: shnazzle on July 7, 2018, 19:13
The fact that I can bury the throttle and be reasonably sure nothing stupid will happen is very comforting.
Owning many motorcycles (with performance ranging from the sedate to the ballistic) taught me that having alot of power can sometimes make you slower. Like Bigjeff says it all depends on what you want the car for.......
Personally I'd keep driving the existing engine until it becomes undriveable, which could be a while, save up in the meantime. Then go 2zz or k20 depending on costs. That's my plan with my current healthy 100k mile engine.
Quote from: james_ly on July 8, 2018, 20:18
Personally I'd keep driving the existing engine until it becomes undriveable, which could be a while, save up in the meantime. Then go 2zz or k20 depending on costs. That's my plan with my current healthy 100k mile engine.
I will be driving this engine for a bit.
If I go down the route of building a donor oil burner up at Carolyn's, I can then repeat the process on my own engine once the new one is swapped in. I can take my time with that one and sell it or keep it as a spare.
2zz really isn't all that. It is "all that" if you cam it and put a standalone on it like Mike. But it's a lot of money. Money I don't want to spend on a car I paid just over 4k for just short of 4 years ago :)
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 7, 2018, 22:15
Quote from: lamcote on July 7, 2018, 21:30
It really is a bit annoying being left behind on the straights by almost any old diesel hatch though!
And somewhere on a diesel hatch forum someone writes:
"It really is a bit annoying being left behind in the bends and at roundabouts by those poxy hairdresser MR2s " ;)
Yes that's true but also, if you can't overtake easily, and therefore safely, along the straights you are then left tootling round the corners behind them!
This is a good point... It would be frustrating to sit behind cars and having all the fun curves and corners ruined because you can't get past the slow coaches in front.
I hung back alot on the way to ding day as I knew most of the rest of the convoy (Save Dan & Jade) would not be able to pass and we'd break up the convoy...
I guess what I'm saying is that you want turbo like Dans or 2ZZ like Mikes in terms of power, but you want good solid reliable performance....
Have you costed what it would be to do Rotrex either yourself or via headcase?
I'm just wondering if that would be a sweet spot on terms of long term stability, performance and ideal power... If you can get it done in a cost effective way.
And you could use what you've got in terms of emb, and existing hardware till you got the additional funds that unlock more power etc
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Quote from: lamcote on July 8, 2018, 21:25
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 7, 2018, 22:15
Quote from: lamcote on July 7, 2018, 21:30
It really is a bit annoying being left behind on the straights by almost any old diesel hatch though!
And somewhere on a diesel hatch forum someone writes:
"It really is a bit annoying being left behind in the bends and at roundabouts by those poxy hairdresser MR2s " ;)
Yes that's true but also, if you can't overtake easily, and therefore safely, along the straights you are then left tootling round the corners behind them!
Totally see how that can happen, but in all honesty I can't remember a time in over 20,000 miles driving these cars when I've been seriously stuck behind someone. Up here in North Yorks. , pick the right roads at the right times and you've practically got them to yourself anyway :)
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 8, 2018, 22:17
This is a good point... It would be frustrating to sit behind cars and having all the fun curves and corners ruined because you can't get past the slow coaches in front.
Have you costed what it would be to do Rotrex either yourself or via headcase?
With my stock, I find I can pass things safely and then enjoy the corners.
Rotrex has got to be £4K I would have thought all in. I found that somewhere the other day.
Part of the point is being missed here; budget and/or willingness to spend as much on this car in relation to other life costs.
Don't get me wrong, if I had cash to burn it would be a track-prepped, road-legal, K20 madmachine with a nice cruiser mr2 next to it for me to choose every morning.
I crave the buzz of acceleration as much as the next petrol head. And the ability to just overtake someone without having to make a big show of it (dropping 2 cogs) would be absolutely lovely.
But costs of getting that, weighed up against the expenses or the brutal fact that it's just not the car for that... Just doesn't work for me.
What I can afford is either a half-arsed turbo build (in regards to my now high standards for a turbo build), a lacklustre 2zz "base" build that I may or may not expand on later to get less power than a simple turbo setup, or a very nicely balanced, reliable, perfectly running 1zz.
The 1zz may someday, if lottery strikes, see forced induction. If not, it'll provide me the same thrills mine has done for almost 4 years.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 8, 2018, 23:01
What I can afford is either a half-arsed turbo build (in regards to my now high standards for a turbo build), a lacklustre 2zz "base" build that I may or may not expand on later to get less power than a simple turbo setup, or a very nicely balanced, reliable, perfectly running 1zz.
The 1zz may someday, if lottery strikes, see forced induction. If not, it'll provide me the same thrills mine has done for almost 4 years.
That bit. That bit right there. That's the answer. No point in being half arsed about it. Do it properly with an eye to the future. Let's face it, the current weather is exactly what the 2's are all about (Well, for me anyway as my burnt forehead will pay testament to)
If it was me, and i was repeating the same equation i was many moons ago.
Bare in mind i had a similar equation, the car just wasnt fast enough, i would be overtaken on track on a straight by a type R then be stuck behind in a corner. I would personally start building bits up over time to go turbo.
I'm the type who'll let the lead-foot past on the straight, just so I can get up his arse in the corners and watch to see if he can drive. They usually can't.
Also, I really don't mind dropping a cog or two if I have to. It's called a 'gearbox'....
Horses for courses!
Quote from: Carolyn on July 9, 2018, 08:02
I'm the type who'll let the lead-foot past on the straight, just so I can get up his arse in the corners and watch to see if he can drive. They usually can't.
Also, I really don't mind dropping a cog or two if I have to. It's called a 'gearbox'....
Horses for courses!
I can't think of anything more disconcerting than passing Carolyn on a straight and then having her tail gating me through the Twisties... Possibly hearing manic laughing and verbal abuse being directed at me and my poor standard of driving over the wind...
Pity the poor sod in his high power hatch back who has that happen to them!
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I still believe a Roots supercharger is the ultimate solution, I hate having to rev past 4000, especially because you're still only going quite slowly anyway!
The acceleration of modern cars has improved so much over the last few years it really has left us behind, literally and figuratively.
Quote from: jvanzyl on July 9, 2018, 08:13
Quote from: Carolyn on July 9, 2018, 08:02
I'm the type who'll let the lead-foot past on the straight, just so I can get up his arse in the corners and watch to see if he can drive. They usually can't.
Also, I really don't mind dropping a cog or two if I have to. It's called a 'gearbox'....
Horses for courses!
I can't think of anything more disconcerting than passing Carolyn on a straight and then having her tail gating me through the Twisties... Possibly hearing manic laughing and verbal abuse being directed at me and my poor standard of driving over the wind...
Pity the poor sod in his high power hatch back who has that happen to them!
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Ha ha ha ha! This is so true. Id pull over and let her past (and have a little cry)
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Quote from: lamcote on July 9, 2018, 08:23
I still believe a Roots supercharger is the ultimate solution, I hate having to rev past 4000, especially because you're still only going quite slowly anyway!
The acceleration of modern cars has improved so much over the last few years it really has left us behind, literally and figuratively.
Yep, the Rootes-type supercharger does give that instant bottom-end hit! I just can't justify spending the extra £2,000 for the ECU and dyno time that are now required. If one doesn't mind spending the money, it's an elegant solution.
So, fag packet maths, roughly how much for some stage 1 cams and flywheel and do you "need" the lightened flywheel? (reading conflicting reviews on idle performance with the lightened flywheel).
As my engine is coming out this winter anyway I'm wondering if it's worth the extra investment while we're at it, depending on what else will need replacing, bearings etc wise for the new cams.?
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Group buy on stage 1 crowers coming up!
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Quote from: jvanzyl on July 9, 2018, 09:30
Group buy on stage 1 crowers coming up!
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Well you never know...
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Quote from: Carolyn on July 9, 2018, 08:39
Quote from: lamcote on July 9, 2018, 08:23
I still believe a Roots supercharger is the ultimate solution, I hate having to rev past 4000, especially because you're still only going quite slowly anyway!
The acceleration of modern cars has improved so much over the last few years it really has left us behind, literally and figuratively.
Yep, the Rootes-type supercharger does give that instant bottom-end hit! I just can't justify spending the extra £2,000 for the ECU and dyno time that are now required. If one doesn't mind spending the money, it's an elegant solution.
A spare 2k + cash for the kit would be a great thing to have :)
I'd probably take it off your hands if that were the case.
I've always said the only supercharger I'd ever consider on the mr2 would be a roots. Toyota seemed to agree,granted on a 2zz but still.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 08:42
So, fag packet maths, roughly how much for some stage 1 cams and flywheel and do you "need" the lightened flywheel? (reading conflicting reviews on idle performance with the lightened flywheel).
As my engine is coming out this winter anyway I'm wondering if it's worth the extra investment while we're at it, depending on what else will need replacing, bearings etc wise for the new cams.?
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You certainly don't need it at all. You may prefer not having it. I haven't decided yet either as it was a bit funny in Bernie's car. You get used to it. It does rev a fair bit easier. He's got the standalone though so any idling issues etc will have been ironed out anyway.
Cams aren't that wildly far off stock. It's not until you get to stg2 that you start getting the v8 like idling tumble.
A standalone is the only way to really get the best out of the cams. I'll be using my emanage piggyback. Might as well.
I'll definitely be looking to get an ECUMaster on it in due time. Once I have that, the world is my oyster basically as that's the main part of the cost for any other mods. And also the key to be able to do anything else.
For now, stg1 cams with piggyback and the rest of my mods should see me towards low 160s or so. Which is a nice little bump. Standalone opens the door for Stg2 cams if I want to chase revs and higher top end.
I'm not too fussed to be getting into the high revs so I think for starters the stage 1 cams would give me that little bit extra to compensate for my increased weight.
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 11:41
I'm not too fussed to be getting into the high revs so I think for starters the stage 1 cams would give me that little bit extra to compensate for my increased weight.
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Haha. Yes indeed. The flywheel will have the same effect. Just a little less resistance in getting going
My logic is if I'm rebuilding the top end anyway I might as well do it with a shiny, new set of cams rather than the tired, old originals.
I'm just hoping we have the room and joint abilities to get it done without having to send anything away.
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 12:25
My logic is if I'm rebuilding the top end anyway I might as well do it with a shiny, new set of cams rather than the tired, old originals.
I'm just hoping we have the room and joint abilities to get it done without having to send anything away.
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Make temporary space in the dining room :)
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 12:25
My logic is if I'm rebuilding the top end anyway I might as well do it with a shiny, new set of cams rather than the tired, old originals.
I'm just hoping we have the room and joint abilities to get it done without having to send anything away.
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The cams (like the cranks) on these are pretty tough. Remember, change cams and you start again with buckets. New buckets will certainly frighten your wallet. Swapping out used ones is, of course, a perfectly OK option ( so long as you don't need fat ones).
Quote from: Carolyn on July 9, 2018, 13:03
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 12:25
My logic is if I'm rebuilding the top end anyway I might as well do it with a shiny, new set of cams rather than the tired, old originals.
I'm just hoping we have the room and joint abilities to get it done without having to send anything away.
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The cams (like the cranks) on these are pretty tough. Remember, change cams and you start again with buckets. New buckets will certainly frighten your wallet. Swapping out used ones is, of course, a perfectly OK option ( so long as you don't need fat ones).
Worth highlighting this.
If you look through the history on here you'll see that someone has destroyed their head by slamming in stg2 cams and not checking/adjusting clearances.
Granted there's a fair difference between stg1 and stg2. But just so the right thing :)
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Noooooooooo!
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Out of interest- say you get your stg 1 cams installed and possibly have to fork out for a zero header etc and you make an extra 20hp.
In the long run if you were to go FI- how much additional power are you able to make with the stage 1's over stock? So say Dan got a them installed, would he have made an extra 20?
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I doubt stage 1 would make 20 bhp extra even after turboing.
Also bear in mind MWR provide a different spec of cam for use with FI engines, compared to NA.
Just and FYI. Don't want/need another 20hp.
There's a reason I now have leather seats.
Quote from: dan944 on July 9, 2018, 15:06
Just and FYI. Don't want/need another 20hp.
There's a reason I now have leather seats.
Hahaha.
Just put a bowl in the footwell. And brake hard. It'll slide off the leather and into the bowl
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 15:50
Quote from: dan944 on July 9, 2018, 15:06
Just and FYI. Don't want/need another 20hp.
There's a reason I now have leather seats.
Hahaha.
Just put a bowl in the footwell. And brake hard. It'll slide off the leather and into the bowl
I don't really know how to respond.
I mean...is this tried and tested?
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 21:07
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Chip shop run out of pies again ?
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 10, 2018, 17:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 21:07
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
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Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Chip shop run out of pies again ?
Harsh...
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 10, 2018, 17:22
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 10, 2018, 17:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 21:07
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Chip shop run out of pies again ?
Harsh...
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Seriously.
Quote from: shnazzle on July 10, 2018, 17:35
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 10, 2018, 17:22
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 10, 2018, 17:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 21:07
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Chip shop run out of pies again ?
Harsh...
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Seriously.
I don't even get pies from the chip shop.
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 10, 2018, 17:55
Quote from: shnazzle on July 10, 2018, 17:35
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 10, 2018, 17:22
Quote from: K T M Rider on July 10, 2018, 17:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 21:07
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 21:04
Quote from: StuC on July 9, 2018, 21:02
Quote from: shnazzle on July 9, 2018, 13:52
Quote from: Call the midlife! on July 9, 2018, 13:36
Hmmm. Maybe I should just go on a diet??
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Haha that's always an option haha. Or strip out the car :)
Oh please, not another strip out. Seen on here too often.
"I'm gonna track it!!" = 'i'll strip the poor car of all its interior and then run out of either time, money, enthusiasm or mechanical talent'. ::)
Sorry, pet peeve. Rant over!
It was a joke :) John strip out his car? But, eBay isn't empty yet ;) The O.G. lives
Hahahaha!
If you only knew the irony of my lose weight statement, I was supposed to be adding even more this weekend but there's been a glitch in the supply matrix..[emoji23]
If I had much more power I'd only scare myself quicker...
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Chip shop run out of pies again ?
Harsh...
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Seriously.
I don't even get pies from the chip shop.
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Must be four for a pound at Heron foods - that's good old Yorkshire economising for you ;)
Ok here's another option.
Rebuilt 1ZZ... BUT using the cash that would have been thrown at stg 1 cams/lightened flywheel instead for forged components in preparation for FI at a later date if so chosen....
That way should you choose FI later you got no worries, and you could thrash the living daylights out of it up till that point in time anyway..
I don't know what the limit of a built supercharged (roots/Rotrex) would actually be...
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No more options!
:)
You're assuming that there's going to be cash available in the next few years to throw another 3-4k at it. It MAY happen, but it's unlikely.
So, 1zz rebuild. Just had a great chat with Spit (Ste) and he has imparted some wisdom and advice I will follow
Care to share??
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Basically it comes down to "proper prior planning prevents p1ss poor performance"
So, buy block, send it to get soda blasted and possibly lapped/skimmed/honed. (depending on costs).
Make sure all parts are bought and ready
Quote from: shnazzle on July 10, 2018, 20:51
So, buy block
Oooooo oooo oooo I found one!! :D
LINKY (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253742832881) 8)
There was a brand new 1zz on ebay the other day with all new ancillaries for £1200. Had come straight from toyota.
Yeah that was the guy in Nottingham. Toyota world's... Seems to focus on Celica stuff...
I reckon it'd be a good deal as you would get new ancillaries etc with it...
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