Some may have followed my posts about Dev's door shut bushes; in short, installing them has exposed my sh1t setup for what it is. Sh1t.
Somehow I got away with it before these things;the magic of body flex and compliance.
Lesson learned here is that chassis rigidity comes with the responsibility to make sure that you either handle the rigidity or build in compliance elsewhere.
So on that note; Can I please have your feedback on my setup and what you would change? I'm looking at the track boys for this.
Current setup and what I think is wrong:
Front
Team Dynamics 1.2 alloys
15 x 7.0 ET35 - 195/50/15 AD08R tyres
-0.4deg camber, 0.05deg toe in
Front strut brace
BC coilovers, 4kg, solid mount. Setting 5
Rear
Team Dynamics 1.2 alloys
16 x 7.0 ET45 - 225/45/16 AD08R tyres
-2.0 deg camber, 0.09deg toe in
Rear strut brace + stock brace
BC coilovers, 6kg,rubber mount, Setting 6
TTE middle brace
Dev's door shut bushes
Symptoms
- Back end feels very loose and breaks out easily. Not predictable
- Difficulty steering in. And when you keep pushing, the back end goes. General unbalance front/rear
- Snap back out of a corner. It wants to go straight, asap. Makes sense with the wider front track?
- before Dev's door shuts, a tendency to understeer on powered long bends, but generally felt well-balanced and easy to drive. Very stable back-end.
Guesses
- the front wheels poking out 10mm compared to the rear can't be good
- 2.0neg camber on the rear but 0.4neg camber on front would induce understeer. I'm debating whether I'm OK with that...I definitely prefer the 2.0neg rear camber.
- never done corner weighing. But is that really necessary on a non-track car? Although with all the bracing, light alloys, semi-track tyres and coilovers one could argue it is a track setup,hence should follow the same rules.
- loosening up the damping on rear coilovers, vs the fronts, may add compliance. So if I set the fronts to 10 and rears to 5 for example. Although that seems like it'd be adding compliance to mask an issue.
- at 90k miles, I probably need to do all of my suspension bushes. But as it's a daily, I really struggle with the thought of replacing them all with stiff poly bushes.
Thanks for your help guys
I think you've now managed to show up the fact that you're tyres are summer performance ones. Can't imagine how else a little extra rigidity would have such a marked affect.
If you were nearer, I'd suggest a temporary swap-out with my all-weather ones. Just to see.
As per the other thread- refresh of the suspension bushes will restore driver/road connection, traction, braking and go-kart feeling..
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:47
I think you've now managed to show up the fact that you're tyres are summer performance ones. Can't imagine how else a little extra rigidity would have such a marked affect.
If you were nearer, I'd suggest a temporary swap-out with my all-weather ones. Just to see.
Makes sense but they seem to have been gripping fine through the same conditions over years.
If the tyres offer sufficient grip in the same conditions on one car setup and not another, which one is "wrong"?
Aside from the obvious fact that these aren't the optimal conditions for the AD08Rs :)
As Petrus has observed (and,somewhat Jason) it would seem that the more those tyres are used, the more the characteristic changes and they become less sticky in the cold.
Petrus (with his racing experience) reckons it's the heat cycles the tyre gets put through.
Is there anyone relatively close with some less 'racy' tyres that you could do a quick swap with?
It seems like a worthwhile experiment before you start spending dosh!
EDIT: Jack's tyres have not had anything like the use yours have. Good place to start?
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:57
As Petrus has observed (and,somewhat Jason) it would seem that the more those tyres are used, the more the characteristic changes and they become less sticky in the cold.
Petrus (with his racing experience) reckons it's the heat cycles the tyre gets put through.
Is there anyone relatively close with some less 'racy' tyres that you could do a quick swap with?
It seems like a worthwhile experiment before you start spending dosh!
EDIT: Jack's tyres have not had anything like the use yours have. Good place to start?
Very true they haven't. But I'd have to swap them off the alloys as hers are different sizes. I'm not sure how enamoured she'd be with that :) She doesn't like me fiddling with Jack :)
As I posted elsewhere, I'm definitely considering moving to more all-weather tyres next time, as it is a daily. Or getting a set of stock alloys and putting something like Rainsports on for the non-summer months. That would resolve the grip issues. But it doesn't resolve the unbalance
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 10:05
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:57
As Petrus has observed (and,somewhat Jason) it would seem that the more those tyres are used, the more the characteristic changes and they become less sticky in the cold.
Petrus (with his racing experience) reckons it's the heat cycles the tyre gets put through.
Is there anyone relatively close with some less 'racy' tyres that you could do a quick swap with?
It seems like a worthwhile experiment before you start spending dosh!
EDIT: Jack's tyres have not had anything like the use yours have. Good place to start?
Very true they haven't. But I'd have to swap them off the alloys as hers are different sizes. I'm not sure how enamoured she'd be with that :) She doesn't like me fiddling with Jack :)
As I posted elsewhere, I'm definitely considering moving to more all-weather tyres next time, as it is a daily. Or getting a set of stock alloys and putting something like Rainsports on for the non-summer months. That would resolve the grip issues. But it doesn't resolve the unbalance
But if you swap the wheels between yours and Jacks, then you can see if it is indeed your ET wheels causing the issue?
Quote from: tricky1138 on January 15, 2019, 10:21
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 10:05
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:57
As Petrus has observed (and,somewhat Jason) it would seem that the more those tyres are used, the more the characteristic changes and they become less sticky in the cold.
Petrus (with his racing experience) reckons it's the heat cycles the tyre gets put through.
Is there anyone relatively close with some less 'racy' tyres that you could do a quick swap with?
It seems like a worthwhile experiment before you start spending dosh!
EDIT: Jack's tyres have not had anything like the use yours have. Good place to start?
Very true they haven't. But I'd have to swap them off the alloys as hers are different sizes. I'm not sure how enamoured she'd be with that :) She doesn't like me fiddling with Jack :)
As I posted elsewhere, I'm definitely considering moving to more all-weather tyres next time, as it is a daily. Or getting a set of stock alloys and putting something like Rainsports on for the non-summer months. That would resolve the grip issues. But it doesn't resolve the unbalance
But if you swap the wheels between yours and Jacks, then you can see if it is indeed your ET wheels causing the issue?
Except for that hers are et35 at the rear and scrape the arches, as mine are not rolled like hers :)
I'd have to raise my suspension to make it driveable on et35
I guess what I'm looking for is someone to be able to look at the spec and go "aspect X looks fundamentally wrong" and then I'd change that.
I'm going to order 10mm spacers for the rear to cover up for my whoops on the wheel offsets. That's a must anyway I think. I'm not going to order two new wheels for the rear as I'm not Rockefeller
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 10:27
Quote from: tricky1138 on January 15, 2019, 10:21
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 10:05
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:57
As Petrus has observed (and,somewhat Jason) it would seem that the more those tyres are used, the more the characteristic changes and they become less sticky in the cold.
Petrus (with his racing experience) reckons it's the heat cycles the tyre gets put through.
Is there anyone relatively close with some less 'racy' tyres that you could do a quick swap with?
It seems like a worthwhile experiment before you start spending dosh!
EDIT: Jack's tyres have not had anything like the use yours have. Good place to start?
Very true they haven't. But I'd have to swap them off the alloys as hers are different sizes. I'm not sure how enamoured she'd be with that :) She doesn't like me fiddling with Jack :)
As I posted elsewhere, I'm definitely considering moving to more all-weather tyres next time, as it is a daily. Or getting a set of stock alloys and putting something like Rainsports on for the non-summer months. That would resolve the grip issues. But it doesn't resolve the unbalance
But if you swap the wheels between yours and Jacks, then you can see if it is indeed your ET wheels causing the issue?
Except for that hers are et35 at the rear and scrape the arches, as mine are not rolled like hers :)
I'd have to raise my suspension to make it driveable on et35
I guess what I'm looking for is someone to be able to look at the spec and go "aspect X looks fundamentally wrong" and then I'd change that.
I'm going to order 10mm spacers for the rear to cover up for my whoops on the wheel offsets. That's a must anyway I think. I'm not going to order two new wheels for the rear as I'm not Rockefeller
You are miles away from the stock facelift setup.
Width 15″ x 6″
Offset = et45
to
Width 15″ x 7″
Offset = et35
Your rim will poke out about 22mm more thank before and that can very well unbalance your car. I think its best to have 20mm more rear to front on our cars so you would need a lot more than 10 mm spacer to make up for this difference.
Here is a calculator link with your settings:
https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 09:51
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 09:47
I think you've now managed to show up the fact that you're tyres are summer performance ones. Can't imagine how else a little extra rigidity would have such a marked affect.
If you were nearer, I'd suggest a temporary swap-out with my all-weather ones. Just to see.
Makes sense but they seem to have been gripping fine through the same conditions over years.
If the tyres offer sufficient grip in the same conditions on one car setup and not another, which one is "wrong"?
Aside from the obvious fact that these aren't the optimal conditions for the AD08Rs :)
"Through the same conditions over years" it's also 12 months since this time last year, age in the rubber might have pushed them past their usefulness.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:12
You are miles away from the stock facelift setup.
Width 15″ x 6″
Offset = et45
to
Width 15″ x 7″
Offset = et35
Your rim will poke out about 22mm more thank before and that can very well unbalance your car. I think its best to have 20mm more rear to front on our cars so you would need a lot more than 10 mm spacer to make up for this difference.
Here is a calculator link with your settings:
https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35 (https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35)
Hmm yes I do seem to have done that wrong. You're right. My rear wheel sizes are stock but I did change fronts by quite a bit. I was comparing front to back. Not stock vs my setup.
One thing I don't get though is that if I use willtheyfit to compare front to back, it comes out with a poke difference of only 10mm. Wouldn't this then be 20mm?
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 11:18
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:12
You are miles away from the stock facelift setup.
Width 15″ x 6″
Offset = et45
to
Width 15″ x 7″
Offset = et35
Your rim will poke out about 22mm more thank before and that can very well unbalance your car. I think its best to have 20mm more rear to front on our cars so you would need a lot more than 10 mm spacer to make up for this difference.
Here is a calculator link with your settings:
https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35 (https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35)
Hmm yes I do seem to have done that wrong. You're right. My rear wheel sizes are stock but I did change fronts by quite a bit. I was comparing front to back. Not stock vs my setup.
One thing I don't get though is that if I use willtheyfit to compare front to back, it comes out with a poke difference of only 10mm. Wouldn't this then be 20mm?
You could go for square setup with 10 mm spacer but i had the same what you describe with square setup on a bit of slippery road - the rear will go out rly unpredictable out of nowhere. That made me spin at 60 km/h and smash all my wheels and front suspension, it wasnt very pleasant experience but at least the car was repairable. Good tires just mask the problems in my opinion because for example again on square setup the car is fine in the summer with AD08r but i doubt it will be any good in rain conditions. I have done only city driving and no track or any twisty roads yet. I will of course change the wheels setup if im going for anything more than that.
If you would like to take corners at speed and so on either dial in suspension differently - different springs rates/rollbars - or change the track of the car front to back. Im not a pro in these i just did a lot of reading, no real life experience tho. Except for the crash :D
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:32
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 11:18
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:12
You are miles away from the stock facelift setup.
Width 15″ x 6″
Offset = et45
to
Width 15″ x 7″
Offset = et35
Your rim will poke out about 22mm more thank before and that can very well unbalance your car. I think its best to have 20mm more rear to front on our cars so you would need a lot more than 10 mm spacer to make up for this difference.
Here is a calculator link with your settings:
https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35 (https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35)
Hmm yes I do seem to have done that wrong. You're right. My rear wheel sizes are stock but I did change fronts by quite a bit. I was comparing front to back. Not stock vs my setup.
One thing I don't get though is that if I use willtheyfit to compare front to back, it comes out with a poke difference of only 10mm. Wouldn't this then be 20mm?
You could go for square setup with 10 mm spacer but i had the same what you describe with square setup on a bit of slippery road - the rear will go out rly unpredictable out of nowhere. That made me spin at 60 km/h and smash all my wheels and front suspension, it wasnt very pleasant experience but at least the car was repairable. Good tires just mask the problems in my opinion because for example again on square setup the car is fine in the summer with AD08r but i doubt it will be any good in rain conditions. I have done only city driving and no track or any twisty roads yet. I will of course change the wheels setup if im going for anything more than that.
If you would like to take corners at speed and so on either dial in suspension differently - different springs rates/rollbars - or change the track of the car front to back. Im not a pro in these i just did a lot of reading, no real life experience tho. Except for the crash :D
I do see your point and it's something you see a lot on "track" cars. I.e. the wider rear track.
I don't really like the idea of spacers so I'm more tempted to go 10mm,which should have little effect on the bearings. At 20mm I'd need to see what kind of stress I'm putting on the wheel bearings
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 11:38
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:32
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 11:18
Quote from: Nvy on January 15, 2019, 11:12
You are miles away from the stock facelift setup.
Width 15″ x 6″
Offset = et45
to
Width 15″ x 7″
Offset = et35
Your rim will poke out about 22mm more thank before and that can very well unbalance your car. I think its best to have 20mm more rear to front on our cars so you would need a lot more than 10 mm spacer to make up for this difference.
Here is a calculator link with your settings:
https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35 (https://www.willtheyfit.com/index.php?width=185&aspect=55&diameter=15&wheelwidth=6&offset=45&width2=195&aspect2=50&wheel_size=15&wheel_width=7&offset2=35)
Hmm yes I do seem to have done that wrong. You're right. My rear wheel sizes are stock but I did change fronts by quite a bit. I was comparing front to back. Not stock vs my setup.
One thing I don't get though is that if I use willtheyfit to compare front to back, it comes out with a poke difference of only 10mm. Wouldn't this then be 20mm?
You could go for square setup with 10 mm spacer but i had the same what you describe with square setup on a bit of slippery road - the rear will go out rly unpredictable out of nowhere. That made me spin at 60 km/h and smash all my wheels and front suspension, it wasnt very pleasant experience but at least the car was repairable. Good tires just mask the problems in my opinion because for example again on square setup the car is fine in the summer with AD08r but i doubt it will be any good in rain conditions. I have done only city driving and no track or any twisty roads yet. I will of course change the wheels setup if im going for anything more than that.
If you would like to take corners at speed and so on either dial in suspension differently - different springs rates/rollbars - or change the track of the car front to back. Im not a pro in these i just did a lot of reading, no real life experience tho. Except for the crash :D
I do see your point and it's something you see a lot on "track" cars. I.e. the wider rear track.
I don't really like the idea of spacers so I'm more tempted to go 10mm,which should have little effect on the bearings. At 20mm I'd need to see what kind of stress I'm putting on the wheel bearings
I dont think 20mm is anything to worry about and even more if you can replace them yourself as they are cheap. I had 25 mm on my civic for a year and a half and it was fine.
Of course its best to have the right rims, i do have a set of 17x8 BBS forged(8 kg a corner) out of Evo 9 that im tempted to fit somehow but i dont think its happening unless i can somehow do 5x114 hub conversion and kill the arches :)
Offtopic you could try to look on facebook or some forums to trade your back wheels with somebody so you get the right thing say around ET 20-25
First of all, PLEASE bear in mind that I have just about NO experience with the MR2. Thus évery single one of my observations is a generic one and should be ´reconfigured´ for the MR2 concept which is very specific: Per example; the mid engine, the relatively long wheelbase, it being relatively lightweight is neutral and easy on tires thus not putting a lot of heat in them. Less than with less neutral concepts, heavier cars. Just as an illustration of the MR2 being a bit specific. Same applies to the Lotus Elise and derivates. Beter look at earlier Elises than at any FWD hot hatch or BMW to name two other concepts.
Chassis act like suspension. Same thing the side wall of the tyre. To some extend same thing rubber bushes and stabeliser/torsion bars.
OEM spec is a finely tuned optimum for a wide range of ´sporty´ use on public roads conditions.
It is with good reason that most manufacturers tailor a model to the market. Hence more than just emision spec. differences.
See the OEM spec. as a chain with all links as strong as any other.
The moment the user changes óne link that will put different stresses on other links.
Take a stiffer of softer sidewall. This will change directional stability and roadholding. The latter is more important than the former. The latter sets the limits of the traction, the grip. This is why higher end sports cars with far more expensive high tech suspensions have more traction with all else the same; same weight/layout/tyres.
Stiffening the chassis has akin effects:
Ever jacked up one corner of a an average 5 seat hatchback? You can jack it up a lóóóng way befor another corner gets off the ground.
Now install a full roll cage, lower(stiffer) suspension and see how this effects the ´roadholding´ of the other three.
As a perspective: ´In the old days´ there were only diagonal ply tires with hight sidewalls. The contact path flexed a lot as did he high sidewalls hence the tire pressure needed to be high yet the tire still acted as air suspension.
When Michelin invented radial tires ALL changed and to keep now not absorbed vibrations from the occupants, rubber bushes needed to be incorporated in the suspension, which in its turn introduced designed flex. Etcetera. The chain see?!
Right now oversteer versus understeer.
The generics are rather simple and by and large apply to any vehicle. Just more or less acute depending on the weight bias/ engine location et al.
This is extensive as it gets simplified:
http://www.morpca.org/drivers-education-guide/understeer-oversteer/
As to the MR2 mk.3 there is the electric power assisted steering. It works a treat but is almost fly by wire; does not give the best of feed back in the steering wheel.
Snazzle is in the situation that many things have been changed with a confusing combined result. It is not óne thing leading to the behavior and it will not be magically sorted by changing óne thing.
Changes however must be done one buy one, well documented and best MEASURABLE thus under ´controlled´ conditions. Seat of the pants, the ´feel´ is important to document too but not measurable.
When making a change don´t exagerate as that may introduce other effect masking what you are doing. Don´t be too subtle either as you do want to measure sómething.
If I would be experiencing any of the issues Snazzle describes, I would try get more info, feed back and temporarily ´switch off´ the power steering.
As I understand it is fairly simple to do by connecting the two hydraulic lines at the pump side, creating a closed loop.
@Snazzle; with or without power steering; try tyre pressure first. One directon at one end only. Then a bit more. Now go the the other way.
Return to where you started and apply to the other end.
Well, ´first´no. Fírst choose a test section of road, a test route.
Will be interesting to see how you fare.
What's your ride height? If you've lowered it a lot, this will have impacted the suspension geometry. Unfortunately there's not much information I've found on this.
However I suspect the main problem is AD08s in cold conditions. I've noticed on track that lightweight cars are more affected by cold temps than heavier cars, as they can't get tyre temperature (and goes the other way on a hot day where the GTRs etc cook tyres fast).
Anyone know if you can buy standard rubber bushes anywhere?
Oh and RE balance... mine is like that. Set up in the dry to be quite pointy, but it's ultimately got more grip than power, so it will be neutral or understeer under power. On cold, wet tarmac however, limited traction, so corner exit it's pretty lively. Even though the chassis is the same in both conditions.
I vote tyres what is your manufacturers date and when did you fit them?
Am sure you would benefit from a new bushes etc but start with tyres.
Love this club :)
1) I haven't changed anything to my setup in a good while and it's been aligned to 0.00deg as it is, without the bushes.
2) happy to try 20mm spacers. We had 30mm spacers on our Audi (were already on there) and that never did any damage for years so.. Should be OK. Finding someone willing to sell those exact wheels, in that colour, in that specific size for my size is a very very unlikely scenario. So spacers is infinitely more realistic.
3) tyres were put on last year and had a build date of 2018
4) I hear what you're saying about the tyres but I can't help but feel that's not the issue. I "feel" a fair bit of the car and it's not the lack of grip I'm dealing with. I'm used to the AD08Rs having little grip in the cold and wet. It's the fact that before i was able to work with that. It communicated very well when I reached the limits of what they'd do in those conditions. And now they're not. Now they're just snapping. It feels a lot like a rubber band. I turn in, turn in and the car feels tighter and tighter to turn. Then all of a sudden, snap and the back end goes.
Whereas before it was turn, turn, feel it start to slip, compensate (speed, angle, etc) , keep turning, all good.
I don't know how else to explain it other than that the car feels like it's 80/20 front to back. Even on very shallow and slow corners, I feel like I'm much further forward in the car. I don't feel like I'm centered. The whole weight balance seems off.
Obviously that's not the case, so something else is making it feel that way.
Also, the rear losing grip doesn't explain why the front now feels like a chore to get around a corner.
... Lastly... I can't believe I'm having these discussions after sticking some blocks of nylon in my door shuts. Wtf.
Take them out and see if it's really them?
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 15:13
Take them out and see if it's really them?
Will do. Will get some more double-sided tape. But I drove home from work, ran straight in and got the bushes, put them on within 15 mins tops and headed straight out for a test run and noticed things immediately. So, I'm not sure what else could have changed in the 15 mins it stood on the drive :)
I noticed it first on the first right-hander through our estate (literally the first time you turn the wheel after pulling away) when I got a bit close to a car on the outside of the bend, as the turn-in was not as expected.
When I got on a straight later, I swirved the car left and right and I remember grimacing a bit. Now bear in mind at this point I was all "yippee this is great!", so having a moment where I grimaced isn't good.
I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?
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Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 15, 2019, 15:42
I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago
Did I mention suspension bushes?... not sure if I have... but no really... it's your suspension bushes! It's the ONLY thing left and I kid you not, you're probably looking at nice flaky rubber by now and the extra rigidity everywhere has now found them to be the weakest point, which I think explains the lack of linear change or "snap" as you call it...
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 16:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 15, 2019, 15:42
I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago
OK, so you have actually already located the ´cause´; the door stabilizers.
Now have a look at
http://trdparts.jp/english/image2012/doorstabilizer_graph.jpg
With the door stabilized, the steering angle response becomes more direct.
In other words; the same steering input should see you to the inside of the corner quicker.
Since it is ceterus paribus we should assume that it is so.
Can you do a objective test?
Wrap a drift style yellow/bue/red/green/whatever tape around the top centre op the steering wheel.
Find a stretch of straight highway and do a ´slalom´ with the dotted line with the driver side front wheel.
Do same on a more lane round about.
Watch carefully how much steering input you give and how the car responds.
Take the blocks out and repeat.
What is different?
Repeat with the blocks refitted if needed.
It can very well be perception and you ´doing´ it, subconsciously compensating:
Steering in, oops feeling, subconsciously compensating out and then getting insecure, leading to tenser arms adding to a twitchy ´car´ feel.
On motorcycles it is só easy for the rider to be the ´issue´. Done that mááány times befor getting my brain/muscles reprogrammed to a change. Took Jorge Lorenzo a year and a half ;)
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 16:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 15, 2019, 15:42
I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago
Well that's me out [emoji23]
Trying to think of anything that could snap/fail/give all of a sudden that would effect your geometry in such an all consuming fashion.
Even a broken spring shouldn't cause that much change and you'd expect to hear it knocking.
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Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 16:30
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 16:06
Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 15, 2019, 15:42
I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago
OK, so you have actually already located the ´cause´; the door stabilizers.
Now have a look at
http://trdparts.jp/english/image2012/doorstabilizer_graph.jpg
With the door stabilized, the steering angle response becomes more direct.
In other words; the same steering input should see you to the inside of the corner quicker.
Since it is ceterus paribus we should assume that it is so.
Can you do a objective test?
Wrap a drift style yellow/bue/red/green/whatever tape around the top centre op the steering wheel.
Find a stretch of straight highway and do a ´slalom´ with the dotted line with the driver side front wheel.
Do same on a more lane round about.
Watch carefully how much steering input you give and how the car responds.
Take the blocks out and repeat.
What is different?
Repeat with the blocks refitted if needed.
It can very well be perception and you ´doing´ it, subconsciously compensating:
Steering in, oops feeling, subconsciously compensating out and then getting insecure, leading to tenser arms adding to a twitchy ´car´ feel.
On motorcycles it is só easy for the rider to be the ´issue´. Done that mááány times befor getting my brain/muscles reprogrammed to a change. Took Jorge Lorenzo a year and a half ;)
The whole "steer out of a corner to go round a corner" thing on bikes boils my brain.
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Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 15:06
... Lastly... I can't believe I'm having these discussions after sticking some blocks of nylon in my door shuts. Wtf.
Thanks for the link. Have dropped Dev a pm.
I reallyréally appreciate the idea of ´restoring´ some of the structural rigidity a cabrio looses because of not having the roof.
Also looked at the TRD one. The MR2 latches a re the same as the ´common´ type.
Rather more pricey; with customs and VAT about four times, but as Dev himself observes a very neat bit of engineering versus a nylon lump. Still does the same! although spacing out :D the door catch puts the more rigid connection higher in the door so should give more structural strength.
Anyway, thanks again.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on January 15, 2019, 16:33
The whole "steer out of a corner to go round a corner" thing on bikes boils my brain.
As on bicycles.
Being Dutch born I was practically born cycling ;) yet with modern ultrastiff hyperquick geometry frames with ultra light carbon wheels it is learning to ´unsteer´, to not caúse the instability. By Jove is that responsive. It took me a bit.
Runabout NL sells the TRD door stabilisers... 239 euros!
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I see three major things wrong with this set up.
1. The rear offset not being the same as the front can have a profound negative effect with the scrub radius.
2. The front negative camber needs to be at least -1.5 minimum. If not it will want to come undone.
3. BC coilovers are valved badly. They are just stiff with no give in the suspension. Suspension needs to be well dampened and there needs to be the right amount of roll for the kind of tires used.
If the first two are corrected everything will go back to being somewhat normal and above all safe.
As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.
Bushes are definitely a go-to. As you say, they won't be in the best state by now. But last time I checked they were actually in an admirable state for the age/miles.
Even the engine mounts looked decent when I did the gearbox.
It's just.. Polybushes...so stiff...
But then you must wonder; what is he whinging about? He's gone to the far end of a fart to make every other aspect of the car stiff and then whinges about bushes :) haha... Hmmm... Must rethink my life.
Petrus... Man of many wisdoms. How have I never seen that graph before? So, what you're saying is that actually the car is steering in quicker than I'm used to, and hence I'm trying to force it through as I user to need to. Which then causes the back to break.
On a side-note, I reduced the damping on the rear by 3 clicks before I drove home and it did make a noted improvement. Which kind of supports the statement above. I've made the rear a bit soggier (teehee), hence added some compliance on the rear, which brings it back more to what it was.
Also funny you mention slaloming. I've been doing that a lot since I had them on "just to see". And even more oddly, I was doing it on a big roundabout as well (slowly). And actually the odd thing is, it reacts immediately and steering input is minimal. I can't slalom much on public roads so I could only play with a few degrees of steering angle but I did note it felt short.
... Argh.
Cars make my head hurt. If it's not engine management it's handling and physics making my brain ouch
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 18:00
As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.
I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.
I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different. That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!
Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.
Just a couple of questions, will adding a 10mm spacer to an ET45 wheel not just make it into an eT35 wheel with all the clearance issues that would bring?
I use the same wheel sizes and tyre sizes as you and I was aiming for a -1 10 camber on the fronts and ended up with 1 14 and 1 07 (this is the previous time I had the alignment checked, couldnt find the latest sheet).
This is way different to your set up?
I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).
As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.
The more you modify that which is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.
Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 18:50
I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).
As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.
The more you modify that which is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.
Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.
That is why the Nürburgring fetishsism is such a bummer.
Concerning mods for the track we are só on the same line with the addition that those mods are súre to be a less optimal compromise.
Even dealer/OEM availeble mods/options cannot be taken for granted to be an improvement. It is after all extra profit/marketing. Just look at the TRD rear strut brace...
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2019, 18:50
I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).
As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.
The more you modify that which is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.
Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.
How true that is.
If I take Tommyzoom's car for example; full on track setup and he does track the living bejesus out of that thing.. Well.. Before he binned it hehe (can't wait to see v2 on the road!) but in any case it gripped absolutely amazingly on normal roads as well.
However... But... Big but... Straight line stability was iffy (he runs some crazy amount of camber) so while grip was amazing, handling for day to day was choice.
Having said that... Yes mine's a daily but if it gripped like Tommy's, was as well-balanced, and as predictable...I'd be a happy chappy.
I guess I like the challenge of a very responsive car.
Point firmly noted though
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 18:34
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 18:00
As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.
I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.
I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different. That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!
Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.
There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.
As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned. As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts. Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 19:10
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 18:34
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 18:00
As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.
I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.
I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different. That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!
Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.
There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.
As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned. As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts. Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.
Judging by that response Dev, you do have an engineering team; you.
I never thought of the security/safety implications.
Good man
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 19:10
As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.
I will have a look at that small rubber then. Depending on where it rests against a more solid replacement could counterbalance the inevitable torsion created by the nylon spacers.
Well unless you would want to sell on your TRD ones that is :))
Your´s ánd the TRD seems the best of two worlds.
Fingers crossed the five orders will be fulfilled soon ;)
Looking forward to the improvement.
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 19:28
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 19:10
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 18:34
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 18:00
As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.
I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.
I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different. That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!
Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.
There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.
As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned. As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts. Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.
Judging by that response Dev, you do have an engineering team; you.
I never thought of the security/safety implications.
Good man
Im a team of one. Its very easy to make all sorts of things for yourself and you will have endless amounts of great solutions but as far as safety goes for others it narrows nearly all of your available options. Even if you get thought that stage it will come down to how complex and costly it is to be worth consideration so it sells.
Although these seem like two plastic blocks there is so much thought that went into the design and material that it was a struggle just to get them to print.
I tried other materials like ABS and some other nylons but they didn't work out as well as alloy 910 which is an outstanding material for this purpose.
Anyway that was the thought process behind these bushings. Certainly not a simple matter but a nice milestone.
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 19:44
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 19:10
As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.
I will have a look at that small rubber then. Depending on where it rests against a more solid replacement could counterbalance the inevitable torsion created by the nylon spacers.
Well unless you would want to sell on your TRD ones that is :))
Your´s ánd the TRD seems the best of two worlds.
Fingers crossed the five orders will be fulfilled soon ;)
Looking forward to the improvement.
The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions. I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings. Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.
If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 20:03
The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions. I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings. Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.
If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.
I was under the imprssion that the TRD latch slides up a ramp, closing the gap as the door is pushed shut. If it still has play in the latched position, then it literally leaves room for improvement ;)
Your bushing ´loads´(minimally) the latch, that way taking up áll play. Yes that is no doubt more solid, more rigid.
Yes I am (pending price) interested in the TRD latch as I would try mount the TRD one with less play and combine it with your solution.
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2019, 21:18
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 20:03
The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions. I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings. Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.
If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.
I was under the imprssion that the TRD latch slides up a ramp, closing the gap as the door is pushed shut. If it still has play in the latched position, then it literally leaves room for improvement ;)
Your bushing ´loads´(minimally) the latch, that way taking up áll play. Yes that is no doubt more solid, more rigid.
Yes I am (pending price) interested in the TRD latch as I would try mount the TRD one with less play and combine it with your solution.
It kind of does slides up on a ramp however part of the plate which is spring loaded detaches and slides towards the inner part of the door. On the opposite side of the door you will install these clips that hold in the provided plastic pieces which is what creates the interference and locks everything together. However its not supper tight and has play in it but better then just having the latch as the only point of contact between the door and the frame so it will do something but nowhere near enough. Its a very well made but way more complex in operation and its flaw is the plastic piece on the opposite side of the door that is easy to come off the clips and fall on the floor.
If you lose the plastic pieces then you are out of luck because you cant get a replacement and all you will have left is an expensive hinge.
I have a feeling they implemented it this way so that there is no liability with the door getting jammed and so the end user will not have to make any adjustments. My bushings on the other hand is made for enthusiasts which are far more forgiving in regards to understanding that adjustments might be needed for a good fit.
If I find my old latches in my garage then we can work something out.
Quote from: Dev on January 15, 2019, 21:47
If I find my old latches in my garage then we can work something out.
Finger crossed :)
Quote from: shnazzle on January 15, 2019, 18:11
Petrus... So, what you're saying is that actually the car is steering in quicker than I'm used to, and hence I'm trying to force it through as I user to need to. Which then causes the back to break.
On a side-note, I reduced the damping on the rear by 3 clicks before I drove home and it did make a noted improvement. Which kind of supports the statement above. I've made the rear a bit soggier (teehee), hence added some compliance on the rear, which brings it back more to what it was.
Also funny you mention slaloming. I've been doing that a lot since I had them on "just to see". And even more oddly, I was doing it on a big roundabout as well (slowly). And actually the odd thing is, it reacts immediately and steering input is minimal. I can't slalom much on public roads so I could only play with a few degrees of steering angle but I did note it felt short.
You are well on the way to getting to grips then.
You had no issue before so it is unlikely that there is a mechanical issue after.
Feel is só crucial.
The increased stiffness gives you more and more direct feedback. Unless one lacks common sense of self preservation that can only lead to ´WOAHHHH´.
Increasing the softness at the rear will slow things down and help you confidence. Whether it is the best set up?
Take your time getting used to the feel.
I am going to an akin phase; the initial understeer REALLY unsettles me. My personal style is too engrained from racing all sorts of motorcycles to change but I am aware that I go in too deep before peeling off and tend to make it worse by braking late (too deep as well).
The current crap rubber, different brands/compounds/carcass F and R!!!, makes it a ´guess what?!´, not adding to the confidence in either the car or myself.
Now, when going to new rubber I will go to 195/50 but apart from adding lightness and stiffening it up somewhat prefer to leave well enough alone.
I knów that the OEM set up is good and that quality all rounder road hoops with a low load index will suit it.
It is me; on the public road, not racing and the only REALLY important thing is the braking distance ;)
The rest is just fun :D
Bottom line; get some miles behind you. Relax. Do not attach too much weight to the limits with AD08s on cold, moist roads; you knów they are subideal, you knów you can sort the occasional ´happening´; don´t screw up your setup for that.
I'm convinced there isn't a mechanical problem perse. Perhaps just suboptimal to my likings in certain areas. Also some aged bushes. Well, definitely aged bushes, but I need to keep some level of flex somewhere in the car.
The one thing I've said from day 1 of putting my wheels on is that I need to get the track sorted front to back. So I will buy spacers. 10mm just to bring it back to square. As Simon says, 20mm would lead to me having to flare my arches which I can't be bothered with.
On the way to work I went I to a roundabout a bit faster than I was comfortable with, but not faster than I usually would be comfortable with, and nothing happened. It didn't feel great but that could be me. The unbalanced feeling remains.
So are you not considering your alignment set up?
That front camber sounds less than ideal to me.
I wonder whether jet washing your arches and shocks would help? I think they get covered in dirt at this time of year which must create an inertia for the dampers to overcome before they can move and they dont have much travel to begin with.
(I am still amazed by the effect of these bushes on your car though!).
Quote from: Topdownman on January 16, 2019, 10:48
So are you not considering your alignment set up?
That front camber sounds less than ideal to me.
I wonder whether jet washing your arches and shocks would help? I think they get covered in dirt at this time of year which must create an inertia for the dampers to overcome before they can move and they dont have much travel to begin with.
(I am still amazed by the effect of these bushes on your car though!).
I'm definitely considering alignment. But at the minute the understeer the low camber at the front gives me is a bit of a buffer for me. Day to day I'd rather see the tree I'm hitting than going into it backwards. It would do my head in on track, but that doesn't happen so...
Having said that, I will go -1 next time after I widen the rear track
Your suspension bushes may not necessarily 'look' bad but they're still 13 years and 80?k miles old.
Mine didn't look terrible and there wasn't any particularly noticeable play pulling on the wheels with the car jacked up. But there is a massive difference in the movement of new ball joints and inner tie rods. Admittedly the car has only moved in and out the garage since it was done but I'm sure it felt different.
You also don't need to polybush (if you think it's front related) - I got arms, droplinks, tie rod ends, a new inner tie rod and some misc bolts for less than £90 all in. Probably cost about that in tools lol
If you're passing by at any point you're welcome to try my stock wheels but given the brands on them I'm not sure it would be an objective test.
Quote from: Bossworld on January 16, 2019, 22:00
Your suspension bushes may not necessarily 'look' bad but they're still 13 years and 80?k miles old.
Mine didn't look terrible and there wasn't any particularly noticeable play pulling on the wheels with the car jacked up. But there is a massive difference in the movement of new ball joints and inner tie rods. Admittedly the car has only moved in and out the garage since it was done but I'm sure it felt different.
You also don't need to polybush (if you think it's front related) - I got arms, droplinks, tie rod ends, a new inner tie rod and some misc bolts for less than £90 all in. Probably cost about that in tools lol
If you're passing by at any point you're welcome to try my stock wheels but given the brands on them I'm not sure it would be an objective test.
Funnily enough I did think of those arms that come with "stock" bushes. That's the only way I've seen a way to replaces bushes without going poly.
ARBs poly'd wouldn't be too bad.
So that leaves the rear
Just for fun and perspective:
An entertaining CLEAR example of understeer going in and oversteer going out at 2:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csyCLFrs-5g
followed by FWD throttle lift oversteer.
Buenos dias caballeros,
How are you getting on Shnazzle?
I cam back up into the mountains from the coast. It had rained on the coast, took the modern by pass and on the wide bridges crossed quite a few broad metal connections/drains. Looooooog sweeping corner, wiiiiiiide 5 lane smooth tarmac, not wet but moist. At around 130 km/h the car tracked giving confidence untill.... WOAHHHH... a metal connection;
I féél the chassis flexing and know I best NOT respond to what I think to feel.
It is more sound than actual jolt as the suspension is pleasantly soft but all four wheels stepped a bit outside, the rear ones also momentarily loosing forward traction and then finding it again. Basically nothing happens. The car literally shakes it off. Íf I would respond, I would be late to the facts and upset the car, caúse it/me to loose it.
Modding the door into a chassis brace would change nothing as the air suspension in the tyres and the car suspension absorb the jolt. The chassis only flexes ´after the fact´. The féél however will be more violent, undampened by the chassis. Ditto any response by me.
I am só looking forward to bracing the door!!
Quote from: Petrus on January 19, 2019, 11:40
Buenos dias caballeros,
How are you getting on Shnazzle?
I cam back up into the mountains from the coast. It had rained on the coast, took the modern by pass and on the wide bridges crossed quite a few broad metal connections/drains. Looooooog sweeping corner, wiiiiiiide 5 lane smooth tarmac, not wet but moist. At around 130 km/h the car tracked giving confidence untill.... WOAHHHH... a metal connection;
I féél the chassis flexing and know I best NOT respond to what I think to feel.
It is more sound than actual jolt as the suspension is pleasantly soft but all four wheels stepped a bit outside, the rear ones also momentarily loosing forward traction and then finding it again. Basically nothing happens. The car literally shakes it off. Íf I would respond, I would be late to the facts and upset the car, caúse it/me to loose it.
Modding the door into a chassis brace would change nothing as the air suspension in the tyres and the car suspension absorb the jolt. The chassis only flexes ´after the fact´. The féél however will be more violent, undampened by the chassis. Ditto any response by me.
I am só looking forward to bracing the door!!
You know what? I think I'm getting used to it.
The steering in the front is quite direct now, which took some getting used to and caused me to oversteer. Not the car.
I won't be getting spacers. As that will induce more oversteer.
But, I will be keeping the rear damping lower than front and I'll change my rear toe inwards, front outwards a smidge, and a bit more front neg camber. I think that will work rather well based on what I'm feeling now.
I'm in no rush to do so though. I'm going to stick to damping for now and perhaps raise the driver's side front a couple of mm as I notice the steering is sharper one way than the other.
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 12:31perhaps raise the driver's side front a couple of mm as I notice the steering is sharper one way than the other.
Some manufacturers realise that their car will be driven with only the driver on board and compensate for this weight unbalance by fitting a harder front spring driver side.
It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine with light cars and I really have to switch it off when I get in and notice the one sided sag.
Most of these bracing modifications are generally in the feel category rather than actual suspension modifications like sway bars, struts and tires which actually make the car faster. Having said that without feel you will be lost and will either input too early or too late, and that can make the car unstable and lower the preceived limits. Having a good sense of feel in my opinion is the magic sauce that makes the other upgrades work at the correct timing.
However with all modifications there are consequences and that is the more bracing you add the more weight you will tack on and then the car will suffer a loss of nimbleness and might end up being sluggish or it can actually ruin the feel by being too stiff.
You need to be judicious as well as conservative in your approach when applying modifications and at times you may need to pull something off.
Exactly the above.
So far, I've hopefully not added much weight.
Front strut bar - removed frunk plastics and bin lid. The strut bar is very light. Spare wheel out. Alarm bracket smaller
Rear strut bar - stock airbox and heavy piping removed and replaced with lightweight alu enclosed cone on much shorter silicone hose. May remove this though.
Toolkit removed
Coilover replacement with BC - each unit seemed a fair bit lighter than the stock units.
Exhaust manifold - 3kg saved by adding zero manifold
Cat - custom stainless cat will be lighter than stock.
Added weight:
Double din radio (front)
Small subwoofer (front driver side)
Piggyback ecu (center)
Door stabilisers (sides)
CG-Loc seat belt immobilisers (front driver side)
Lower mid brace
So, definitely a need to revisit the corner weighting, partially because I've also lowered the car and changed wheels/tyres from stock.
I think once you get to the point I have, you've well and truly messed with the stock setup and balance so really it's back to the drawing board.
Corner weighting, roll center adjustment (which I really need to do), alignment.. Hell, sometimes on a more spirited drive I wish I could adjust the brake bias a bit.
I enjoy all this. It's teaching me a lot about handling, mechanical grip, "feeling" the car, the physics of the car.
So, if I didn't do anything wrong, I wouldn't learn as much. So frankly I welcome my f-ups :)
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 21:17
Hell, sometimes on a more spirited drive I wish I could adjust the brake bias a bit.
What would you like to achieve?
Quote from: Petrus on January 19, 2019, 21:49
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 21:17
Hell, sometimes on a more spirited drive I wish I could adjust the brake bias a bit.
What would you like to achieve?
It's not a must-have by any means. But I've had the front lock up a small handful of times coming into a corner, unexpectedly,which then lead to basically not being able to steer obviously. Having a bit less front bias on dry days on grippy roads would let me play with that a bit.
As I said, that's something I've encountered maybe 3 times since ownership 2013. I'll never actually implement this :) Too much hassle and money for something I'm unlikely to use as most of the time it would be in stock config
Worth noting that those 3 situations arose (most likely) because of driver error. Not because I was driving 9/10ths on a public road.
Oh and as you might have guessed or seen from all my other posts over the years, I like tinkering and diving into the depths of things.
Keeps me off the streets :)
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 22:06
Quote from: Petrus on January 19, 2019, 21:49
What would you like to achieve?
It's not a must-have by any means. But I've had the front lock up a small handful of times coming into a corner, unexpectedly,which then lead to basically not being able to steer obviously. Having a bit less front bias on dry days on grippy roads would let me play with that a bit.
As I said, that's something I've encountered maybe 3 times since ownership 2013. I'll never actually implement this :) Too much hassle and money for something I'm unlikely to use as most of the time it would be in stock config
Did you fit a hard brake line kit yet? My appologies if I missed that.
It does not change the braking ofcourse but does improve modulation which is the most important property of the set up so the driver can brake to the max a given system is possible of.
Quote from: Petrus on January 19, 2019, 22:54
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 22:06
Quote from: Petrus on January 19, 2019, 21:49
What would you like to achieve?
It's not a must-have by any means. But I've had the front lock up a small handful of times coming into a corner, unexpectedly,which then lead to basically not being able to steer obviously. Having a bit less front bias on dry days on grippy roads would let me play with that a bit.
As I said, that's something I've encountered maybe 3 times since ownership 2013. I'll never actually implement this :) Too much hassle and money for something I'm unlikely to use as most of the time it would be in stock config
Did you fit a hard brake line kit yet? My appologies if I missed that.
It does not change the braking ofcourse but does improve modulation which is the most important property of the set up so the driver can brake to the max a given system is possible of.
Yes I have, a few years ago, and it did indeed improve things to no end for braking.
In fact, one of the 3 occurrences I mentioned, lead to me getting my HEL lines. It was on the Hartside Pass. I remember it well.
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 23:12/quote]
Yes I have, a few years ago, and it did indeed improve things to no end for braking.
In fact, one of the 3 occurrences I mentioned, lead to me getting my HEL lines. It was on the Hartside Pass. I remember it well.
Then basically Patrick you have all the modulation you need :D
If wánt to, if only for confidence sake, you could achieve more rear bias with different pads; the same brand and type in one grade softer at the rear than at the front.
Personally I would not modify the genreic road condition set up for an exception.
Quote from: Petrus on January 20, 2019, 10:58
Quote from: shnazzle on January 19, 2019, 23:12/quote]
Yes I have, a few years ago, and it did indeed improve things to no end for braking.
In fact, one of the 3 occurrences I mentioned, lead to me getting my HEL lines. It was on the Hartside Pass. I remember it well.
Then basically Patrick you have all the modulation you need :D
If wánt to, if only for confidence sake, you could achieve more rear bias with different pads; the same brand and type in one grade softer at the rear than at the front.
Personally I would not modify the genreic road condition set up for an exception.
No indeed. I shan't :)
And? How is it goin? Getting used to it?
I am looking só foward to stuffing them in.
Expecting quite a transformation now ;D
I'm quite comfortable with it now to be honest, but it's been quite cold and wet so truthfully I won't be 100% comfortable until summer comes :)
Also a bit more tramlining on the rear. But that's always been there to some degree. Especially after -2 rear camber
Quote from: Petrus on January 18, 2019, 18:48
Just for fun and perspective:
An entertaining CLEAR example of understeer going in and oversteer going out at 2:58
Enjoyed that.
Just to revisit this.
It's an odd thing. I've had a good push a couple of weeks ago. Perfectly dry and sunny warm weather.
Very obvious UNDERsteer. Came around a long-ish bend and the car just wouldn't come in.
The front was dragging the car out. Very obnoxious.
So, rear unsettled when wet, but when pushing it, understeer for days. The rear being unsettled has changed with fresh AD08Rs on the rear.
So before big suspension changes take place I want to try;
10mm spacers rear. Rear toe in a bit for straight line. Front camber to -2 with 0 toe.
After that, it's koni inserts into my BC coilovers or something along those lines. The damping on the BCs really does degrade very quickly over time. It seems to be crap at first, then goes sweet, and then dreadful
Having driven a few cars with stock suspension now, I'm actually leaning towards moving to a more stock setup.
Me not like.
Please try change ONE thing at a time.
Also, go back to THE one and only basic:
Going through a corner, centrifigal force pushes the car to the outside and the grip of the rubber prevents that, with the limit being the amount of adhesion.
ANY other force on any of the tyres will lower the the amount of adhesion availeble to counteract centrifugal force.
On the mid engined MR2 with rear bias weight distribution, slight load shifts or steering changes will affect the above mentioned balance noticably. The resulting oversteer/understeer needs be taken back to the basics and to individual aspects if you want to address it.
Additionally the oversteer/understeer is both tyre ´slip´; the creep of the rubber itself while maintaining adhesion ánd actual slip, a % of drift becasue of going over the limit of adhesion.
An example:
Inflating a tyre a bit will stiffen it and reduce the creep of the rubber itself: Inflate the front ones a bit and it will result in less understeer.
Adding a bit negative camber ot a front tyre that has a reduced contact patch because of centrifugal forces, will give more adhesion and thus reduce thát slop = also reduce understeer.
Now add the effect of driving forces. Accellerating or decellerating will not only add forces directly, it will also shift the weight load on all four of the tyres.
I have found the this MR2 to be very, véry sensitive to the latter. To both the accelerating/decellerating and weight shifts.
I see what you're saying but my logic is as follows:
1) my front track is wider than my rear. That's jusr wrong regardless. Hence spacers. I messed up on alloy purchase.
2) rear - 2 camber with front - 1 camber will induce understeer. So either reduce rear or increase front. I like the corner grip that - 2 rear gave. So going with changing front
3) I didn't toe the rears in enough when I had my last alignment, so straight-line stability suffered a bit. Not massively
I used to be able to push through the same corner much harder than I cna now. Which tells me I messed something up.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 26, 2019, 16:10I used to be able to push through the same corner much harder than I cna now. Which tells me I messed something up.
So start with making a list of what changes you made and write the effects of those; both the theoretical and what you perceived, behind them.
@ 1. Agreed BUT be aware that this does not affect the front scrub radius you changed, although it affects mainly stability, not understeer/oversteer,
@ 2. You should not have more negative camber than necessary to restore a by distortion reduced contact patch.
As on the MR the rear is heavier and the sidewall higher, the tyre distortion tends to be larger. Through tighter corners, the steering angle of the front adds a force thus distortion.
Too much negative camber for the available traction; cornering forces, redúces the contact patch.
It is só easy to completely loose track of the actual set up and thus where to go to.
A good comparative list remains:
http://www.morpca.org/drivers-education-guide/understeer-oversteer/
but it has to be seen in the context; see my reservation concerning negative camber.
Do read through the whole list and try project it on the basic; centrifugal force vs. traction.
The ´take a different line´ is very sound one and shoul be read as enveloping all driver´s style. In mý case it made a world of difference and I am stíll coming to grips with the behavior of this mid engined gem: Just this very weekend concluded that Í am ´causing´ the recently experienced understeer in tighter corners.
I have been following this thread with interest. The link from Petrus has it all down to a fine art. I remember something like this in a booklet many years ago from the BRDC, I used to do hill climbs and sprints and then had a couple of seasons on the track before the money ran out.
However, unless you are competing, please remember these limits and the subtleties being discussed are way beyond driving on the roads (at least in the UK
@Petrus)
Stay safe chaps. Greg
Facinating read.
Quote from: H1GRM on June 27, 2019, 08:28However, unless you are competing, please remember these limits and the subtleties being discussed are way beyond driving on the roads (at least in the UK @Petrus)
Buenos Greg; point taken.
HOWEVER; if the political correctness rules than we need a non public sub forum for all this and related.
Bottom line:
- A bit more or less negative camber, more of less tyre pressure, a bit wider rims even oversized ones, are not going to lower the availeble traction só much that legal speed centrifugal forces surpass it.
- Within the framework of indicated maximum speeds, there will never ever be more than the lightest understeer or oversteer on dry roads with an MR2 Spyder even on El Cheapo tyres.
- Rain on worn shiney roundabouts excepted.
The link I gave is for the reference framework. Without proper understanding of the basics and the principles, ány modding is per definition going into unknown territory.
Right, now for road legal advice;
1, Push less and you woes will go away.
2. Change the AD08Rs for rubber with a wider/lower temp. range befitting the driving mentioned under 1..
For those keen to learn, to understand the art of setting up a vehicle there is an intersting write up on the model development of the first gen. Honda NSX:
As found by the automotive press such as Car and Driver in their September 1997 issue's comparison of "Best Handling Car for more than $30K", the NSX, due to its mid-engine layout and rear-end link travel, was susceptible to a sudden oversteer condition during certain cornering maneuvers.
While this condition rarely occurred during normal driving conditions, it was much more prevalent on race tracks where speeds were much higher.
To address the problem and improve the NSX-R's cornering stability at the limit, Honda added one aluminium bracket under the front battery tray and added one bracket in front of the front radiator to add more chassis rigidity replacing the entire suspension system with a more track oriented unit, featuring a stiffer front sway bar, stiffer suspension bushings, stiffer coil springs and stiffer dampers.
The standard NSX has a somewhat rearward bias in its spring and bar rates, where the rear was relatively quite stiff versus the front.
This means that the lateral load transfer distribution, or the amount of load that is transferred across the front axle versus the rear while cornering, is rather rear biased. This can make the car quite lively and easy to rotate at low speed, but during high speed cornering, this effect becomes more pronounced and could be a handful to manage.
To reduce the tendency to oversteer, Honda fitted softer rear tyres on the NSX.
For the NSX-R, Honda reversed the spring bias, placing stiffer springs on the front suspension along with stiffer front sway bar.
This shifted the load transfer stiffness balance farther forward, resulting in more rear grip at the expense of front grip; this had the effect of decreasing the oversteer tendency of the car, making it much more stable while cornering at high speeds.
Overall, the NSX-R utilises a much stiffer front sway bar along with stiffer springs than the standard NSX (21.0mm xt2.6mm front sway bar :F 3.0 kg/mm—R 4.0 kg/mm for the NSX versus F 8.0 kg/mm—R 5.7 kg/mm for the NSX-R).