So this is how it ended up by the time I got home from the Dales drive. Bearing in mind the stage 2 cams and dual spring valvetrain I don't know if this is normal for stronger springs and valves or not.
I imagine I'm going to have to take the cover off and give everything an eyeball at least, regardless.
https://youtu.be/-xttvO_tThk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It does sound a bit like a typewriter..... [emoji848]
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Fairly confident it's valvetrain rather than bearing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 7, 2019, 20:49
Fairly confident it's valvetrain rather than bearing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes sounds like valves. Doesn't sound good. [emoji53]
Quote from: jonbill on April 7, 2019, 21:11
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 7, 2019, 20:49
Fairly confident it's valvetrain rather than bearing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes sounds like valves. Doesn't sound good. [emoji53]
Fill me full of good cheer why don't you??[emoji23][emoji23]
Got progressively worse as the afternoon wore on and that was recorded on cold start up. Everything was nice and tight, gap wise, on the rebuild so I'm wondering what I'll find when I lift the cover off. Drove well enough on the way home, well no different to when I left in the morning at least.
The only "used" parts on the build were the chain tensioner which isn't that old anyway and the vvt hub and sprocket. Everything else is brand new, doesn't mean it can't fail obviously just for information.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could hope you didn't do the cam caps up properly and find them loose :)
Quote from: jonbill on April 8, 2019, 08:09
You could hope you didn't do the cam caps up properly and find them loose :)
It's funny you should say that, it's on my list of wonderings already, although they were brand new Toyota screws and done up to spec. But you never know, especially as I made the head up all saucy like before realising I couldn't fit it to the block with the cams in...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 8, 2019, 08:48
Quote from: jonbill on April 8, 2019, 08:09
You could hope you didn't do the cam caps up properly and find them loose :)
It's funny you should say that, it's on my list of wonderings already, although they were brand new Toyota screws and done up to spec. But you never know, especially as I made the head up all saucy like before realising I couldn't fit it to the block with the cams in...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have my fingers crossed for you
Based on recent experience..... if it is technically allowable I'd be putting thread locker on everything!
Quote from: jonbill on April 8, 2019, 08:59
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 8, 2019, 08:48
Quote from: jonbill on April 8, 2019, 08:09
You could hope you didn't do the cam caps up properly and find them loose :)
It's funny you should say that, it's on my list of wonderings already, although they were brand new Toyota screws and done up to spec. But you never know, especially as I made the head up all saucy like before realising I couldn't fit it to the block with the cams in...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have my fingers crossed for you
Cheers, it'll be whatever it'll be and I'll just have to deal with it. Depending on what the problem may or may not be it might be time to admit my feet aren't touching the bottom anymore and let someone else have a look at it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jvanzyl on April 8, 2019, 09:01
Based on recent experience..... if it is technically allowable I'd be putting thread locker on everything!
Yup. I did on the majority of stuff but the cam caps are stretch so you'd imagine they'd stay put.
The tired, hacked off part of me says ignore it until the weekend but the wanting to know and move forward part of me wants to pull the covers off tonight and stick it's nose in!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're really going to hate me!
Did it go on the dyno with mineral oil in the engine?
The 'progressive' bit says rod bearing to me.
Stop driving it until you find the problem.
Quote from: Carolyn on April 8, 2019, 09:49
You're really going to hate me!
Did it go on the dyno with mineral oil in the engine?
The 'progressive' bit says rod bearing to me.
Stop driving it until you find the problem.
Could never hate anyone trying to help.
But yes to the dyno with mineral oil, plus one on my own thoughts about a spun bearing and don't worry it's going nowhere until it's sorted.
I was under it on Wednesday while it was running on the 4 post lift and I couldn't decide if the bottom end sounded a bit ticky or if it was just the acoustics in the workshop.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ooer. When I listened on the phone I thought very valvy, but, listening on the TV there is a bit of a knock too.
B*gger.
If it's a spun bearing, chances are the crank is fine. Clean the pan out thoroughly, very fine wet&dry to take any white metal pick-up off the crank and a new set of shells.
Could be worserer!! :)
Quote from: Carolyn on April 8, 2019, 10:38
If it's a spun bearing, chances are the crank is fine. Clean the pan out thoroughly, very fine wet&dry to take any white metal pick-up off the crank and a new set of shells.
Could be worserer!! :)
That it could, another new set of shells won't break the bank, just wondering whether it's doable in situ or needs to come out again to do it properly?
I think I already know the answer to that one, I'll be turning up to cars in the park in the Mondeo [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Definitely an in-car job. Drop the pan, work from underneath.
Done it myself!
I'll talk you through it if you need help.
(I'd drop the pan, just to find out for sure.)
Quote from: Carolyn on April 8, 2019, 10:56
Definitely an in-car job. Drop the pan, work from underneath.
Done it myself!
I'll talk you through it if you need help.
(I'd drop the pan, just to find out for sure.)
It was the polishing of the crank that I was trying to get my head around doing on the car. On the bench I did it with a strip of paper and a shoelace so just trying to imagineer doing it in situ with my sausage fingers. Probably a job for the apprentice.
I've seen a video of the shells being replaced from underneath so I know what we're up against but at least it's less hassle than taking the lump out again.
I'll definitely be giving you a shout if we get stuck though, always appreciated.
Need to source a replacement IACV too and swap that out, go back to standard injectors and standard ECU for a while before going back to finish the dyno work off.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've got a spare iacv in the garage I think.
But... I didn't think your problem sounded like iacv. Weren't the symptoms severe hunting when warmed up?
Quote from: jonbill on April 8, 2019, 13:08
I've got a spare iacv in the garage I think.
But... I didn't think your problem sounded like iacv. Weren't the symptoms sever hunting when warmed up?
The valve was seized up when I checked it, once I'd freed it up and refitted it the idle was as good as you'd expect with the cams but by the time I got it to the dyno it was doing it again so need to swap it to get it tuned again as it's currently mapped out of the loop, best he could do really at the time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well we had a look at the typewriter this evening for the first time since the weekend, both agreed it was definitely a tick from the top rather than a knock from the bottom.
So off with the cam cover and in with the gauges and found an intake gap of 0.65, yup, had to check it 30 times before we believed it.
A couple of others were a bit off too but not that much, once we got the cams out and pulled the bucket it was easy to see why the massive gap. The bucket was dished in, could probably play a nice bit of steel drum on it if I had the sticks..[emoji23]
Not really sure why it happened, there was an assembly incident when I lifted the cams out to fit the head to the cylinder and pulled some buckets out at the same time as they were stuck to the assembly paste but I was confident I'd got them back in the right holes.
It's one of the recycled buckets and the inner does look a bit more tired than the others so maybe was just not up to the extra stress?
Either way we're relieved it's not a spun shell but also hoping it's not a bound spring or something but it does explain a lot, regardless.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to hear that you've found the source of the sound!
Who's got the bucket bank currently??
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
I've an idea but I need to measure all mine again and see what I need yet, I only binned my original paperwork on Sunday too while having a sulky tidy up in the garage.
I'll have to have a think and some trial and error with the mullered one though. I'm going to have to put them back together with something I'm assuming is the right size and then measure it and make any adjustments again, can't really use 0.65 as a starting point [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's very odd. Just one valve? The shims should be very hard, so not really compressible. I can't remember, do these cams oil through holes in the lobes? Maybe that lobe's hole is blocked and not oiled properly and its worn a trough in that shim. Does the lobe look OK? Have you got calipers and can you measure it and compare with others?
TBH I don't think you should be quick to just write it off as a dodgy shim.
Nope, no different to standard cams as far as oiling goes and everything was nicely lubed up with plenty of oil on every surface.
One other was well off gap wise with 0.20 when it should've been 0.15 but no obvious damage showing anywhere.
I'm not attributing it to a tired, old shim just putting it on the table as a possibility to see who picks it up.
The other possibility is that the gap was too big from the start and it's been hammering away at it against the dual springs, it's a very even effect so it's been revolving as it should.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Patrick has the bucket bank.
Let him know what you need, I'm sure he'll send them pronto
Glad to hear it wasn't bottom end :)
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 06:22
Patrick has the bucket bank.
Let him know what you need, I'm sure he'll send them pronto
Glad to hear it wasn't bottom end :)
Thought he might, we were quite relieved too![emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 06:22
Patrick has the bucket bank.
Let him know what you need, I'm sure he'll send them pronto
Glad to hear it wasn't bottom end :)
I will send indeed! Need to make a trip to thr posties anyway.
Let me know
Quote from: shnazzle on April 11, 2019, 08:09
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 06:22
Patrick has the bucket bank.
Let him know what you need, I'm sure he'll send them pronto
Glad to hear it wasn't bottom end :)
I will send indeed! Need to make a trip to thr posties anyway.
Let me know
I'll see if I can get them measured up tonight but I've got a long day of concrete trials in the lab today so my brain might be fried. [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/19206c26b675c7bf014507cd42520097.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/d920f4d5ffd194a8a271737320a60684.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/68176e4c33483eb72f83283b03c5ce11.jpg)
Not the easiest to illustrate the effect by photo but you can more or less see. There's around 1.15mm of thickness missing from what a number 30 should be.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's been absolutely hammered by the cam. Has it been hanging up in the head? Check for any burrs in its socket that might stop it sliding properly.
These buckets are very hard, I do hope the cam lobe is not damaged.
You need to figure out how this happened, 'cos just putting another bucket in might not be the best idea. Or the valve has been sticking... or something.....
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 20:28
That's been absolutely hammered by the cam. Has it been hanging up in the head? Check for any burrs in its socket that might stop it sliding properly.
These buckets are very hard, I do hope the cam lobe is not damaged.
You need to figure out how this happened, 'cos just putting another bucket in might not be the best idea. Or the valve has been sticking... or something.....
All agreed, lobes look fine, no obvious damage and measures the same as the rest as well as I can measure with some digital calipers.
I'm starting to think the head might have to come off to give it a proper coat of looking at..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don't take the head off yet......
Don't worry, I'll not even be going in the garage again until Saturday unless I really have to..[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'll give it some thought. Something has been hanging up.
I'd put another bucket in, replace the cams and watch it carefully as the engine is being turned by hand.
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 20:50
I'll give it some thought. Something has been hanging up.
Appreciate that, I wondered if I'd maybe fouled it somehow with the big adjustable when nipping everything up but it's intake 3 and nowhere near the hex moulding.
It popped straight up to the magnet last night when taking it out and it's only a small, extending pick up tool I use nothing particularly strong.
No obvious sign of damage to anything other than the bucket and it ran fine all the way home.
No signs of swarf or chunks in any of the galleries or component parts.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I cant help thinking it's running dry and the cam has worn the bucket. But maybe that's not possible. I can't remember how the oiling works.
Is it double spring? Outer spring broken?
Quote from: jonbill on April 11, 2019, 21:07
I cant help thinking it's running dry and the cam has worn the bucket. But maybe that's not possible. I can't remember how the oiling works.
Is it double spring? Outer spring broken?
I'm 99% sure it's not an oiling issue, everything was wetter than an otter's pocket when we took the top off after a very brief idle just to let H hear it in the flesh.
They're dual springs but nothing seems amiss, the inner springs are relatively soft and I could move them with thumb pressure but not as a pair. Although obviously they're still held to the valve at the moment so whether you'd be able to tell without taking them out is debatable and I'm not equipped to do that with the head in place at the moment.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The cam has the oil-way, holes in the journals lubricate the bearing. The buckets are just splash from that.
Just check that it all operates smoothly first. You can tell by watching how the valve behaves in comparison to its buddy nect door.
Being able to tell without taking the springs out is not 'debatable'. Just observe.
Something has not moved smoothly as it should.
that bucket damage is the result of the bucket not going all the way down. Either the bucket has cocked in its socket or something is preventing the valve from opening all the way.
Quote from: Carolyn on April 11, 2019, 21:23
The cam has the oil-way, holes in the journals lubricate the bearing. The buckets are just splash from that.
Just check that it all operates smoothly first. You can tell by watching how the valve behaves in comparison to its buddy nect door.
Being able to tell without taking the springs out is not 'debatable'. Just observe.
Something has not moved smoothly as it should.
that bucket damage is the result of the bucket not going all the way down. Either the bucket has cocked in its socket or something is preventing the valve from opening all the way.
All received and understood. Broken spring wise I meant debatable in the sense I'd be surprised if you could move them at all in situ even if one was broken, there's not really anywhere for it to go.
Just as additional, background information the tuner was disappointed with the curves as no 2 runs were the same. 6 back to back runs at the end of the session and nothing like the "rainbow" effect you would want to see.
On the day we put it down to a probably dodgy, second hand injector not giving consistency in the fuelling but looking at the problem now I guess it's possible the valve wasn't operating properly on the day and giving the variance rather than an injector.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/c7626670ccedc18024ea2b6324ae7521.jpg)
Given the springs and valve stem etc a coat of looking at and all's good there, bucket spins and moves up and down freely in the hole so all I can put it down to is carelessness/laziness after possibly mixing the buckets up when fitting the head to the block.
Now to light the fuse and stand well back![emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 17, 2019, 21:10
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/c7626670ccedc18024ea2b6324ae7521.jpg)
Given the springs and valve stem etc a coat of looking at and all's good there, bucket spins and moves up and down freely in the hole so all I can put it down to is carelessness/laziness after possibly mixing the buckets up when fitting the head to the block.
Now to light the fuse and stand well back![emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
i see you used the magic tool! Did the valve move freely in the guide? I would have dropped the piston an inch and checked with a magnet on top of the stem......
Anyway, fingers crossed!! :D
What's the bit of string for?
Quote from: Carolyn on April 18, 2019, 08:50
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 17, 2019, 21:10
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/c7626670ccedc18024ea2b6324ae7521.jpg)
Given the springs and valve stem etc a coat of looking at and all's good there, bucket spins and moves up and down freely in the hole so all I can put it down to is carelessness/laziness after possibly mixing the buckets up when fitting the head to the block.
Now to light the fuse and stand well back![emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
i see you used the magic tool! Did the valve move freely in the guide? I would have dropped the piston an inch and checked with a magnet on top of the stem......
Anyway, fingers crossed!! :D
It's a very magic tool! "Wow that's a contraption" was H's reply when I sent him a pic of it in use..
As it happened I probably started with the piston too low as I couldn't get the string to feed in nearer the top so I had more or less the springs compression depth of valve movement to play with. Moved nice and free through rotation and up and down, although I know what you're saying about letting it go further in but knowing my luck I'd lose it altogether![emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: shnazzle on April 18, 2019, 08:57
What's the bit of string for?
It's magic...
Feed the string in through the plughole, bring the piston up against the string, valve stays put with the string underneath it and you don't lose it into the cylinder.
Takes a bit of trial and error and a small leap of faith but does the trick.
Thanks go to Carolyn for everything related to this particular part of the process..[emoji1303]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Please post the pick of the spring compressor in use... I just want to see it in all it's Heath Robinson glory!!
Quote from: shnazzle on April 18, 2019, 08:57
What's the bit of string for?
I thought it was the aforementioned "Fuse"
Quote from: Joesson on April 18, 2019, 09:25
Quote from: shnazzle on April 18, 2019, 08:57
What's the bit of string for?
I thought it was the aforementioned "Fuse"
That's what made me use that particular play on words, just looked very "mission impossible" at the time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Carolyn's valve spring compressor in use...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190418/a00d0ac2979163d69f9abe2d71ba6748.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What's next then? Reassemble and suck it and see?
Get cams back in and check all gaps/adjust as necessary, set timing then give it a good few turns by hand to check everything does what it says on the tin.
Put the lid on and press go.
I'm tempted to drop some oil out and add some fresh, it's only done the Dales drive on what's in at the moment but I've got a couple of litres of the CRO left still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 09:58
Get cams back in and check all gaps/adjust as necessary, set timing then give it a good few turns by hand to check everything does what it says on the tin.
Put the lid on and press go.
I'm tempted to drop some oil out and add some fresh, it's only done the Dales drive on what's in at the moment but I've got a couple of litres of the CRO left still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you hand-turn it with the plugs out, you won't be fighting compression and you can get good feel of how smooth it is....
Quote from: Carolyn on April 18, 2019, 10:07
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 09:58
Get cams back in and check all gaps/adjust as necessary, set timing then give it a good few turns by hand to check everything does what it says on the tin.
Put the lid on and press go.
I'm tempted to drop some oil out and add some fresh, it's only done the Dales drive on what's in at the moment but I've got a couple of litres of the CRO left still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you hand-turn it with the plugs out, you won't be fighting compression and you can get good feel of how smooth it is....
Agreed, not like the other night making H turn it with them in..[emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 10:24
Quote from: Carolyn on April 18, 2019, 10:07
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 09:58
Get cams back in and check all gaps/adjust as necessary, set timing then give it a good few turns by hand to check everything does what it says on the tin.
Put the lid on and press go.
I'm tempted to drop some oil out and add some fresh, it's only done the Dales drive on what's in at the moment but I've got a couple of litres of the CRO left still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you hand-turn it with the plugs out, you won't be fighting compression and you can get good feel of how smooth it is....
Agreed, not like the other night making H turn it with them in..[emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're cruel to that Lad.
Quote from: 1979scotte on April 18, 2019, 16:13
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 10:24
Quote from: Carolyn on April 18, 2019, 10:07
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 18, 2019, 09:58
Get cams back in and check all gaps/adjust as necessary, set timing then give it a good few turns by hand to check everything does what it says on the tin.
Put the lid on and press go.
I'm tempted to drop some oil out and add some fresh, it's only done the Dales drive on what's in at the moment but I've got a couple of litres of the CRO left still.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you hand-turn it with the plugs out, you won't be fighting compression and you can get good feel of how smooth it is....
Agreed, not like the other night making H turn it with them in..[emoji38]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're cruel to that Lad.
Hahahahaha! Nah, he's just well trained, knew full well it would be easier but there was no need for it at that point so in his eyes it was less work.[emoji851]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://youtu.be/iuhk-g4pouM
See what happens this time.[emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Still think it sounds remarkably smooth for a stg2 cam idle. Albeit a bit high.
Fingers crossed (again!)
Quote from: shnazzle on April 21, 2019, 16:02
Still think it sounds remarkably smooth for a stg2 cam idle. Albeit a bit high.
Fingers crossed (again!)
It's on the false setting on the Apexi still so definitely too high, I'm going to take the Apexi out tomorrow I think and see if it'll run on the standard ECU, assuming I've "fixed" the problem.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like an occasional misfire. I think trying it on the standard ECU is a good wheeze.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190421/6a86f9a014ea54d531731f0fa60ed5a3.jpg)
This POS didn't help things along today either, already had to trim 2 inch off it on the first rebuild, wouldn't have been so had if the other end wasn't twice the size!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Carolyn on April 21, 2019, 16:11
Sounds like an occasional misfire. I think trying it on the standard ECU is a good wheeze.
First time I ran it I was getting misfire codes but don't get any EML with the Apexi even if it was so another reason to remove it from the equation for a while.
Back to standard injectors and ECU and see if the IACV behaves itself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Back to standard ECU and injectors, sounds like a tractor with the phone recording but running sweeter than last time on this set up. Still the odd stumble on drop down and haven't road tested it yet as the rear bumper and lights are off.
https://youtu.be/pGXZ-JuPICY
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounding lovely this afternoon...
https://youtu.be/hk0C395Mz4E
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 28, 2019, 19:11
Sounding lovely this afternoon...
https://youtu.be/hk0C395Mz4E
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Gerrin!