Compressor, rotrex, turbo and....
TorqAmp!!
Although the electric blower idea has been about a lóng time, there has not been any capable of creating useful boost.
Now there is.
A few Dutch blokes have worked out a really functional electric turbo.
It seems the ideal solution for the MR2 Spyder.
Quote from: Petrus on November 22, 2019, 11:24Compressor, rotrex, turbo and....
TorqAmp!!
Although the electric blower idea has been about a lóng time, there has not been any capable of creating useful boost.
Now there is.
A few Dutch blokes have worked out a really functional electric turbo.
It seems the ideal solution for the MR2 Spyder.
If it doesn't require an extra battery and a much bigger alternator, it's pants.
Its an interesting idea but a waste of money imo at the moment as battery tech just isnt there, reading their FAQ you get 4minutes of boosting then it needs to cool down for at least 2minutes before you can go again, providing battery has charged up as well, i cant think of anything other than a dyno or drag run that would be useful for.
Also price is crazy, approx £2k for the kit then you need a aftermarket ecu to tune it properly so your over £3k in and for a few minutes of boost at a time, no thanks :D
There is a reason everyone isnt fitting these and thats because it has a very very limited market....as Peter would say on dragons den.....im out :D
Quote from: Carolyn on November 22, 2019, 11:53Quote from: Petrus on November 22, 2019, 11:24Compressor, rotrex, turbo and....
TorqAmp!!
Although the electric blower idea has been about a lóng time, there has not been any capable of creating useful boost.
Now there is.
A few Dutch blokes have worked out a really functional electric turbo.
It seems the ideal solution for the MR2 Spyder.
If it doesn't require an extra battery and a much bigger alternator, it's pants.
True:
1. It has a 48V subsystem with LiFe battery.
2. The alternator argument stands. I cannot see how the auxiliary power pack can be kept charged unless it is used for occasional boost like an NOx system.
Looking further down the FAQ it says approx 10seconds of charging for every 1 second of boosting, so if you got 4minutes of boost thats 240 seconds x10 = 2400seconds to charge back up, which is 40minutes!...hmm i wonder how many they have sold :)
I like the scenario of "occasional boost" - it's a bit like the system on the CRZ...but it would need to be cost effective..
It'd fit well with the commute style driver..
Quote from: thetyrant on November 22, 2019, 12:02Its an interesting idea but a waste of money imo at the moment as battery tech just isnt there, reading their FAQ you get 4minutes of boosting then it needs to cool down for at least 2minutes before you can go again, providing battery has charged up as well, i cant think of anything other than a dyno or drag run that would be useful for.
Also price is crazy, approx £2k for the kit then you need a aftermarket ecu to tune it properly so your over £3k in and for a few minutes of boost at a time, no thanks :D
There is a reason everyone isnt fitting these and thats because it has a very very limited market....as Peter would say on dragons den.....im out :D
No disagreement from me.
The importance is though that technology is just about getting there.
I´ve been looking at electric RC airplane tech for decennia now and the evolution is simply awesome.
The brushless enclosed ´jet´ fans are crazy efficient and easily move more air than the 1ZZ-FE at an energy use the stock alternator can easily provide. The only snag is that the thrust they deliver is not pressure that can be used as boost like the centrifugal fan/turbo can.
The tech ís getting there though.
At the side of energy recuperation the tech is getting there too and it is easy to see this electric turbo applied in a hybrid car.
Back to the TorqAmp I think they are on to something.
For mé though, I would like the power to be there under the pedal all the time even if I use it only occosionally.
I have had a butane boost system in my turbodiesel for nearly a decade and as fun as it was, it did not affect the general driving unlike a TRD compressor or TTE turbo.
oops, sorry
Cute... I think that sums it up
To be fair was was surprised at how much boost it actually made.
As the tech gets better, I'm sure we'll see something in the bear future.
That was an interesting watch. They didnt go into much detail about how it would work in day to day use but maybe there is a future for this type of mod after all.
Sounds like a lot of kit, and weight and work, to do what a direct drive belt can do.
However you do it, the energy required to spin a supercharger comes out of the rest of the system.
Anyone reckon you could transplant a Honda ima system across? What is it, a beefy starter and a rechargeable battery? 😬😂
Nobody here that actually has the Torqueamp on an mr2? Instant torque down low definetly looks nice.
Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 16, 2020, 18:32Nobody here that actually has the Torqueamp on an mr2? Instant torque down low definetly looks nice.
That is why I looked into it. Three snags:
1. it´s like NOS temporary boost only
2. needs a hefty power pack
3. needs a piggy back e-box
Bottom line is a none too cheap solution with limited added value.
Imo the only thing speaking fór it is ease of install.
Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 19:06Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 16, 2020, 18:32Nobody here that actually has the Torqueamp on an mr2? Instant torque down low definetly looks nice.
That is why I looked into it. Three snags:
1. it´s like NOS temporary boost only
2. needs a hefty power pack
3. needs a piggy back e-box
Bottom line is a none too cheap solution with limited added value.
Imo the only thing speaking fór it is ease of install.
Well yeah ease of install on the mr2 and every other car you could possibly have after, i also don't think you can find a cheaper turbo kit(new) the TTE turbo was almost double the price for around the same advertised power..(i know it had higher potential)
i agree the kit would not be ideal on track but according to reviews you cant drain the battery on the street(you wouldent go full throttle for that long of a duration)
I realise this thing is still pretty much a gimmick though but still would have a very nice acceleration boost.
Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 16, 2020, 19:33i agree the kit would not be ideal on track but according to reviews you cant drain the battery on the street(you wouldent go full throttle for that long of a duration)
Because it is NOS application mode and as such véry limited. It´s a circular argument and if you stop to think the battery being up to it prooves the limited use.
It cán be a better proposition if accompanied by a throttle/revs related power feed to it; the way Audi has done. It would thus be a proper zero lag turbo.
The way it is, NOS is cheaper, lighter and more easy to install still.
Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 19:56Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 16, 2020, 19:33i agree the kit would not be ideal on track but according to reviews you cant drain the battery on the street(you wouldent go full throttle for that long of a duration)
Because it is NOS application mode and as such véry limited. It´s a circular argument and if you stop to think the battery being up to it prooves the limited use.
It cán be a better proposition if accompanied by a throttle/revs related power feed to it; the way Audi has done. It would thus be a proper zero lag turbo.
The way it is, NOS is cheaper, lighter and more easy to install still.
I don't know if you know the phantom electric turbo which is similar to this and started its development on the fr's/gt86/brz platform I remember that they had something like a 3 way throttle position underneath the accelerator pedal which increased boost the more you pressed the it and that worked really well (according to all the test persons) So making the torqueamp do, this wouldn't be that hard, still I just would be really interested in the results the torqueamp would have on a mr2 :p
Imo it would be ´only´ a matter of the electronic programming to get instant extra torque with way less thermal load than an exhaust turbo.
I think the MR2 is an ideal prospect; stuff it between MAF and throttle body, stick in yellow injectors and then.... reprogramming the motormanagement :o
Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 20:58Imo it would be ´only´ a matter of the electronic programming to get instant extra torque with way less thermal load than an exhaust turbo.
I think the MR2 is an ideal prospect; stuff it between MAF and throttle body, stick in yellow injectors and then.... reprogramming the motormanagement :o
That definetly looks like a better solution that way, i just hope someone would try this even if it all just is for knowledge of more options that benefits this platform :p
Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 20:58Imo it would be ´only´ a matter of the electronic programming to get instant extra torque with way less thermal load than an exhaust turbo.
I think the MR2 is an ideal prospect; stuff it between MAF and throttle body, stick in yellow injectors and then.... reprogramming the motormanagement :o
That would be the absolute worst place to put said device as you're injecting tons of air after it has measured it... Kaboom.
So either piggyback and before MAF or standalone and, well, then there would be no MAF :)
Quote from: shnazzle on May 16, 2020, 22:43That would be the absolute worst place to put said device as you're injecting tons of air after it has measured it... Kaboom.
Oh no, sucking in all through MAF, no extra air coming from nowhere. Same as TTE turbo, just not with the in that layout neccessary detour. All the air is measured by the MAF.
Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 23:24Quote from: shnazzle on May 16, 2020, 22:43That would be the absolute worst place to put said device as you're injecting tons of air after it has measured it... Kaboom.
Oh no, sucking in all through MAF, no extra air coming from nowhere. Same as TTE turbo, just not with the in that layout neccessary detour. All the air is measured by the MAF.
Err, no not quite but anyway, off topic.
Tbh the more I think of the application in the MR2, the more attractive it seems. For that quick overtake on the motorway a 4 second boost would really help.
Then chances are your next overtake is a few minutes away anyway. Quite good actually for how little hassle it is to install. No cooling needed or anything as it's such a short duration and chances are that depending on what power it can output, you can plumb it in pre-maf and the stock ECU would compensate nicely.
Hmm.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 16, 2020, 23:32Quote from: Petrus on May 16, 2020, 23:24Quote from: shnazzle on May 16, 2020, 22:43That would be the absolute worst place to put said device as you're injecting tons of air after it has measured it... Kaboom.
Oh no, sucking in all through MAF, no extra air coming from nowhere. Same as TTE turbo, just not with the in that layout neccessary detour. All the air is measured by the MAF.
Err, no not quite but anyway, off topic.
Tbh the more I think of the application in the MR2, the more attractive it seems. For that quick overtake on the motorway a 4 second boost would really help.
Then chances are your next overtake is a few minutes away anyway. Quite good actually for how little hassle it is to install. No cooling needed or anything as it's such a short duration and chances are that depending on what power it can output, you can plumb it in pre-maf and the stock ECU would compensate nicely.
Hmm.
The battery will boost for about four minutes, according to the website, though sometimes it gets hot after two. TorqAmp says one second of boosting needs about 10 seconds of charging.
Saying that you wont go full throttle for 2-4min at a time on a public road and whenever you stop full throttle it will start to recharge.
Goh this info from the their website.
There are several methods to control the TORQAMP. Either one mounts the included hard switch below the gas pedal to simply switch the TORQAMP on and off. Alternatively, two wires from Throttle Position Sensor or Drive by wire pedal can be connected to the open-source Control Box in which one can set the percentage of throttle to a percentage of boost. When using an open ECU, one can also program a boost map and give an PWM signal into our open-source Control Box. Finally we also developed boost control with which one can measure the pressure in the intake manifold. In combination with turbo chargers and or superchargers the boost is now based on the pressure built up from the turbo or supercharger.
Also pricing with vat(btw-tax included) are around 2700€ now. (Used to be 3500€ at the start)
I am watching this with interest as I hope that someone is going to give it a go!
It sounds like it should work for a certain style of driving?
It did put me in mind of this old test on 5th gear though, I know they are completely different systems but if your battery does run out, then you are just carrying extra weight until it catch's up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ZCac4JX_A
Not to mention it is still a LOT of money for a little boost every now and then.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 17, 2020, 09:53Not to mention it is still a LOT of money for a little boost every now and then.
My point.
NOS does the same for less money and a simpler install.
The problem I see with the MR install is the OEM ECU.
The turbo should be installed between MAF and TB and a piggy back programmed. A serious extra expense.
A not highlighted secondary issue is that the turbo will hamper breathing when not operating. With the turbo inoperative the engine is n.a. sucking through the impellor, dríving the impellor to get the air in.
The install needs to be so that the turbo blows at least at ambient pressure, otherwise it is a step báckwards for 99% of the time. What?!, TWÓ steps backwards as you will be hauling the xtra kilos too.
Apart from the doubtful safety of a pressurised gas bottle in the car, NOS is a better proposition.
Now I ám willing and cán swing the expense but with all supercharging options having serious down sides, adding lightness remains my objective.
If Ivo´s initiative falls flat, will make an effort to will local resources. A bloke I know in Granada makes carbon stuff for a mainstream bicycle brand and the glass fitter in the village has responded neutrally about a polycarbonate windhield.
As Jason stated, weight reduction is like compound interest in your favor whereas adding hp is hampered by deminishing returns.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 17, 2020, 09:53Not to mention it is still a LOT of money for a little boost every now and then.
Well, yeah it definitely is expensive at this time but it's pretty new and will go down in price stil after some years, but well so was the TTE Turbo kit it also did not increase power that much and costed double the amount of the Torqueamp in my opinion a boost time of 4 min (max) is enough for the street, you will hardly ever run out of boost in just spirited driving, though constantly trashing it probably will eventually.
I also know of no other options at this moment with this kind of power increase that is priced the same (new) if you want to go for high power one day, then this is not the kit, but you could still combine it with a turbo for instant power without lag if you really wanted to.
Quote from: Petrus on May 17, 2020, 10:35Quote from: shnazzle on May 17, 2020, 09:53Not to mention it is still a LOT of money for a little boost every now and then.
My point.
NOS does the same for less money and a simpler install.
The problem I see with the MR install is the OEM ECU.
The turbo should be installed between MAF and TB and a piggy back programmed. A serious extra expense.
A not highlighted secondary issue is that the turbo will hamper breathing when not operating. With the turbo inoperative the engine is n.a. sucking through the impellor, dríving the impellor to get the air in.
The install needs to be so that the turbo blows at least at ambient pressure, otherwise it is a step báckwards for 99% of the time. What?!, TWÓ steps backwards as you will be hauling the xtra kilos too.
Apart from the doubtful safety of a pressurised gas bottle in the car, NOS is a better proposition.
Now I ám willing and cán swing the expense but with all supercharging options having serious down sides, adding lightness remains my objective.
If Ivo´s initiative falls flat, will make an effort to will local resources. A bloke I know in Granada makes carbon stuff for a mainstream bicycle brand and the glass fitter in the village has responded neutrally about a polycarbonate windhield.
As Jason stated, weight reduction is like compound interest in your favor whereas adding hp is hampered by deminishing returns.
They actually have a solution for this already though with something like a bypass, but even than you only lose power on the top end of the power band and only if the turbo is not operative.
So go for it MrBart and let us know.
Quote from: Petrus on May 17, 2020, 10:49So go for it MrBart and let us know.
sure i've been really thinking about it honestly, but i try to do alot of research before i spend this amount of money on something but if i actually do this i will definetly report it here even if alot of people dont see the benefit of this kit i still find it interesting just to have more options for this platform.
Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 17, 2020, 11:26Quote from: Petrus on May 17, 2020, 10:49So go for it MrBart and let us know.
sure i've been really thinking about it honestly, but i try to do alot of research before i spend this amount of money on something but if i actually do this i will definetly report it here even if alot of people dont see the benefit of this kit i still find it interesting just to have more options for this platform.
I was getting the sense that you were interested!
I would contact the company once lockdown is over to say you are interested but would need to experience it and then see if they have some sort of demonstrator etc. Then its just a case of a nice family outing to Holland. Even if you dont go for it, would be fun. Small companies do have the ability to do deals though and a project into an MR2 might generate more interest in their product so you may be able to haggle a deal?
Just watched the clip again and I had forgotten the boost it provides. It's actually quite impressive.
Was thinking that even the emanage blue I've got would be sufficient if I installed a greddy MAP sensor as well to manage the system in boost.
So if we take the approach of installing it after the MAF, then it would run full stock (albeit with a slight intake restriction until the impeller spins up) when off boost, and then on positive boost pressure it would basically run off the piggyback and MAP.
12v trigger to turn it on, can be done via the VTEC signal,with a relay in between triggered by available charge.
That way it's completely automatic, you can can set when you want it to trigger and it would only turn on if you had the charge.
Don't really see the need for boost control with 3psi tbh.
So my brother bought one for his Lotus Exige R he's combining it with a turbo, however we are gonna test it on both the 1zz and 2zz first so we have some information to show for both platforms we will have to wait for at least 16-22 weeks though as it seems Torqueamps have been selling really well, i hope it's a good contribution to our platform.
(https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/100479073_2999722756737807_7872378958522613760_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=0be424&_nc_ohc=bamW5X0EstIAX9KZXgK&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=2382a52a7fdb7c1ae87ca16d2bfa6366&oe=5EEB15EB)(https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/100672657_2999465793430170_9014533946486030336_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=7_wcjktzl8kAX-sGPET&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=17b0881f50a0868cbc5a4244b0634384&oe=5EEB839B)
Beejeeezusss 16 - 22 weeks!!! That´ll be autumn! Better install NOS for the summer and sell it on by then ;-)
Quote from: Petrus on May 21, 2020, 09:36Beejeeezusss 16 - 22 weeks!!! That´ll be autumn! Better install NOS for the summer and sell it on by then ;-)
Yeah didn't expect that either but they said it would probably ship faster than that.. and nah im to lazy to refill nos :D rather have a kers like setup. Anyway testing something new that works on our cars is never a bad thing.
I think Patrick mentioned a very real possibility: This system has a relatively low boost and it is most likely that the OEM ECU can sort the needs of the carburation.
Simply replace the rubber tube between MAF and throttle body with one incorporating the torqe amp.
I think it is an extremely elegant solution almost tailor made for the modest extra power needs of the ZZW30 on the road.
Imo the cux to practicality is to sort the gradual feel to the e-turbo; that it is always on and supporting the need of the engine, only chárging progressively from say 75% throttle opening. A pot meter under the pedal would do.
The alternator is rather overdimentioned and should be able to keep up. Just stay off the rear window heater and don´t install heated seats or boom boxes :-)
Look forward to seeing the results you get in 6 months time.. can we set a timer on this site??
Having looked at the site, and seen the IS200 results I'm guessing that you'll get roughly 30-35 extra at the wheels and your torque will jump like 20lbs up till about 4500-5000 rpm..
Certainly be interesting to understand the limiting factors with the technology.. just need old dyson to get in on the act!
Quote from: jvanzyl on May 21, 2020, 10:13Look forward to seeing the results you get in 6 months time.. can we set a timer on this site??
Having looked at the site, and seen the IS200 results I'm guessing that you'll get roughly 30-35 extra at the wheels and your torque will jump like 20lbs up till about 4500-5000 rpm..
Certainly be interesting to understand the limiting factors with the technology.. just need old dyson to get in on the act!
Yeah i do hope it gets here sooner but looking at dyno's from their site im expecting around 180 BHP and 170-180ftlb
You will need yellow injectors for that. Not the most elegant to rely on the O2 loop for the ECU to correct but it works. The MAF mod. relies on it too without a glitch.
Quote from: Petrus on May 21, 2020, 13:05You will need yellow injectors for that. Not the most elegant to rely on the O2 loop for the ECU to correct but it works. The MAF mod. relies on it too without a glitch.
I actually have a maf mod kit lying around here but just not installed it yet, so you recommend installing just the yellow injectors in combination with the torqueamp and let the maf compensate? (As a test)
Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 21, 2020, 13:15Quote from: Petrus on May 21, 2020, 13:05You will need yellow injectors for that. Not the most elegant to rely on the O2 loop for the ECU to correct but it works. The MAF mod. relies on it too without a glitch.
I actually have a maf mod kit lying around here but just not installed it yet, so you recommend installing just the yellow injectors in combination with the torqueamp and let the maf compensate?
No.
I do recommend fitting it untill you get it, but best take the spacer out and the vanes back when you fit the e-turbo.
If you have freed up the exhaust already do add the ´funnel´ elbow btw. Cheap, easy and effective. It is the TRD intake mod taken one step up ;-)
A word of caution, I would 100% not be running any kind of forced induction on the stock ECU without some kind of ignition timing control, high compression ratio of these engines along with aggressive n/a ignition timing maps means you would be relying on the weedy factory knock sensor to try and keep engine together, it can only do so much and its not what its designed to cope with.
Interesting on the leadtime, its probably as i suspected they are not really geared up to supply these to market and most likely building to order which is fine, they probably got a shock someone ordered one lol
Good luck with it an hope it works outs, its a good idea i just dont think the tech is there yet.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 21, 2020, 15:20A word of caution, I would 100% not be running any kind of forced induction on the stock ECU without some kind of ignition timing control, high compression ratio of these engines along with aggressive n/a ignition timing maps means you would be relying on the weedy factory knock sensor to try and keep engine together, it can only do so much and its not what its designed to cope with.
Interesting on the leadtime, its probably as i suspected they are not really geared up to supply these to market and most likely building to order which is fine, they probably got a shock someone ordered one lol
Good luck with it an hope it works outs, its a good idea i just dont think the tech is there yet.
Yeah we were definetly planning to tune it but a kit like this "phantom electric charger" also worked on the stock frs/brz/gt86 ecu without tuning and well there was suprisingly alot of interest in that kit also on the ft86forum(i had a gt86) every kit that was made was inmediatly sold out.. that was the USA market though and the Torqueamp is more Professionaly made by a bussiness while the "ESC" was started somewhat as a hobby..
I followed the progress of that Esc from the start and while there definetly was still alot of improvements to be made for it to be optimal, still was pretty impressive for what it is.. alot of people first thought of it as snake oil because of all the ebay fake electric chargers so it had to prove itself alot against non believers(still the same with the Torqueamp)
Most people bought it though for the ease of install as it needs no intercooler and fits every car without a problem so you can put it on all the cars you have or will have.
It works on alot of stock ecus (with maf) but tuning it is always recommended) for me it's also not about what's best or cheapest for me but these "new tech" things really interest me. And i can always easily just turbo the car like everyone else if this thing does not satisfie me :D
Working and working safely in the longterm is another matter remember, also the BRZ/GT86 has a lot more tech in the ECU and knock sensor department, as ive seen when tuning my Cosworth Supercharged car with EcuTek software, this would give much more headroom in safety if fitting something like the Torqamp on a otherwise bone stock car, compared to say the MR2 much more primitive system.
I imagine if only triggered at high revs/full throttle it wouldnt be crazy risky but would need monitoring to be sure, however bringing it in at lower revs to boost overtaking etc (which would be nice time to have it!) would 100% need a tune and work on ignition and fuelling to keep engine together imo.
Look forward to your findings though :D
Quote from: thetyrant on May 21, 2020, 15:51Working and working safely in the longterm is another matter remember, also the BRZ/GT86 has a lot more tech in the ECU and knock sensor department, as ive seen when tuning my Cosworth Supercharged car with EcuTek software, this would give much more headroom in safety if fitting something like the Torqamp on a otherwise bone stock car, compared to say the MR2 much more primitive system.
I imagine if only triggered at high revs/full throttle it wouldnt be crazy risky but would need monitoring to be sure, however bringing it in at lower revs to boost overtaking etc (which would be nice time to have it!) would 100% need a tune and work on ignition and fuelling to keep engine together imo.
Look forward to your findings though :D
You're right about that i'm definetly not planning to run it long term on stock ecu just more like a test "if it would work with stock ecu" would a higher octane fuel and bigger injectors help for a "safer" run?
There's ways and means. Have a look at
@spit who has been running his turbo on stock ECU for over 100k miles. I think his car is possibly the longest running turbo car out there.
Original mr-s I believe.
That stock ECU is a beast. And that knock sensor and the processing of it in the stock ECU is mint.
Hence I say, I'd be comfortable running this with no more than some slight timing and fueling adjustment on a piggyback
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 16:15There's ways and means. Have a look at @spit who has been running his turbo on stock ECU for over 100k miles. I think his car is possibly the longest running turbo car out there.
Original mr-s I believe.
That stock ECU is a beast. And that knock sensor and the processing of it in the stock ECU is mint.
Hence I say, I'd be comfortable running this with no more than some slight timing and fueling adjustment on a piggyback
Interesting info but personally i wouldnt want too unless i had to, then i guess without trying you dont know and it would be interesting to have a play providing i had wideband for monitoring afr and det cans for knock to see and listen to what happened, i spent a lot of time tuning my old supercharged mazda mx on an emanage blue and to a point it was great and easy but after a point you were always fighting the stock ecu, which was not fun and not very consistent for the tune.
Ah, so that's how the @ feature works. Hello!
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 16:15Have a look at spit who has been running his turbo on stock ECU for over 100k miles.
I think we've all been dumbfounded by the reliability of this C2 kit. The ECU/EMB combo has kept it singing for over 130k miles now. My biggest problem is preventing the car from falling apart around it!
I certainly go along with Patrick's view on the stock ECU's ability. Whether its more cute than the Mazda MX box I couldn't say.
Out of sheer laziness (and because it works) I run a slightly "off" map on the EMBlue. Its always a bit gnarly after an ECU reset, but a couple of tootles in traffic and squirts up the motorway and the ECU has trimmed everything to where it should be. (Or, more specifically with running a piggyback, where it's fooled into thinking it should be!). And it holds it there consistently.
An additional point of clarification (and you may wish to close your ears for this Ian!) ..... there's
no ignition adjustment on the C2 map. Nada. Just Fuel and Air and a correction ratio for the larger injectors. That's it.
Quote from: spit on May 21, 2020, 19:26Ah, so that's how the @ feature works. Hello!
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 16:15Have a look at spit who has been running his turbo on stock ECU for over 100k miles.
I think we've all been dumbfounded by the reliability of this C2 kit. The ECU/EMB combo has kept it singing for over 130k miles now. My biggest problem is preventing the car from falling apart around it!
I certainly go along with Patrick's view on the stock ECU's ability. Whether its more cute than the Mazda MX box I couldn't say.
Out of sheer laziness (and because it works) I run a slightly "off" map on the EMBlue. Its always a bit gnarly after an ECU reset, but a couple of tootles in traffic and squirts up the motorway and the ECU has trimmed everything to where it should be. (Or, more specifically with running a piggyback, where it's fooled into thinking it should be!). And it holds it there consistently.
An additional point of clarification (and you may wish to close your ears for this Ian!) ..... there's no ignition adjustment on the C2 map. Nada. Just Fuel and Air and a correction ratio for the larger injectors. That's it.
I need you to come and have a go at my supercharger car!!!
We need to keep in mind the max boost this kit is running at.
Quote from: spit on May 21, 2020, 19:26Ah, so that's how the @ feature works. Hello!
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 16:15Have a look at spit who has been running his turbo on stock ECU for over 100k miles.
I think we've all been dumbfounded by the reliability of this C2 kit. The ECU/EMB combo has kept it singing for over 130k miles now. My biggest problem is preventing the car from falling apart around it!
I certainly go along with Patrick's view on the stock ECU's ability. Whether its more cute than the Mazda MX box I couldn't say.
Out of sheer laziness (and because it works) I run a slightly "off" map on the EMBlue. Its always a bit gnarly after an ECU reset, but a couple of tootles in traffic and squirts up the motorway and the ECU has trimmed everything to where it should be. (Or, more specifically with running a piggyback, where it's fooled into thinking it should be!). And it holds it there consistently.
An additional point of clarification (and you may wish to close your ears for this Ian!) ..... there's no ignition adjustment on the C2 map. Nada. Just Fuel and Air and a correction ratio for the larger injectors. That's it.
That is certainly impressive :) , what sort of boost does the C2 kit run out of interest ?
Quote from: Petrus on May 21, 2020, 19:44We need to keep in mind the max boost this kit is running at.
Yes indeed. Which makes it all the more of a no-brainer.
If it can run spit's C2 turbo kit... This 3-5psi setup is a bit "meh, whatever" for the stock ECU + EMB setup.
Spit's C2 CAN run some of the highest boost I've seen anybody run on this forum yet!
Which is why I rant about his build and the capability of the OEM ecu with a little help of the EMB.
It's not to be underestimated.
See page 41 for
@spit making 267bhp back in 2006!
https://issuu.com/mr2onlymag/docs/mr2_only_issue_3_issuu
Bottom line being that it would not be an outlandish idea to simply fit the e-turbo in after the MAF and have it operate from a pot meter on the loud pedal set up so it´s not a restriction and gradually starts building pressure from 75% load.
I still find it expensive though.
2006 :o ?? surely not. Nurse!
Quote from: thetyrant on May 22, 2020, 07:22what sort of boost does the C2 kit run out of interest ?
Gaspar's first kits ran stock injectors at wastegate pressure (6psi), primarily to allow us to get going on tired stock clutches. For no reason whatever I added a simple MBC (turbosmart). This really perked things up by holding back the wastegate signal (still at 6). 380cc injectors and an Exedy organic clutch went in to give the kit some more headroom and the option to turn it up into the 10-12 range.
There's never a bad time to post this. Gaspar having fun.....
Impressive and hilarious.
It also puts the complications in a relative ... simple light.
Apart from the low boost, the e-turbo also has a wáy lower thermal load issue.
I really see the benefits. Remember I did a lot of calculations on EDF from model airplanes. Still a lot of money and the lead time simply kills it imo.
Have a look at
https://hobbyking.com/es_es/dr-mad-thrust-70mm-10-blade-alloy-edf-3000kv-motor-1200w-4s.html?queryID=dd533dfb5e977efef6d983b63e3f0545&objectID=82385&indexName=hbk_live_magento_es_es_products
Now imagine it in the intake hole in the panel beneath the fuse box.
Hook it up to the battery through an electronic speed controller. This you can hook up to a switch or pot. meter you operate by hand or via the loud pedal.
150€ max.
If you delete the duct through the rear panel, the space will be plenum chamber.
Alternatively I could stick a 90mm fan in the funnel air horn I fiited.
A 90mm 4S fan which can be fed from the car battery pumps through air at 50 m/2sec. which with the swept 50 cm2 adds up to over 2,5 times what the 1ZZ sucks in at 6K revs.
The boost though, that is a different matter: 2 kg of thrust does NOT equate bar charge. Also it is dynamic thrust. These fans are poor at building up pressure. Also the thrust needs to be divided by the surface to get ´pressure´ : 2 kg of thrust is only 0.04 kg/cm2 in a 50 cm2 tube.
The large diameter ensures that there is no resistance when not driven.
Also if the poopoo would hit the fan, any bits would be stopped by the filter.
With controlling electronics it would add up to 250€ for maybe 5% extra oompf.
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/wemotec/1691-edf-ducted-fan-wemotec-midi-fan-evo-het-650-58-2100.html
Quote from: Petrus on May 22, 2020, 12:36Have a look at
https://hobbyking.com/es_es/dr-mad-thrust-70mm-10-blade-alloy-edf-3000kv-motor-1200w-4s.html?queryID=dd533dfb5e977efef6d983b63e3f0545&objectID=82385&indexName=hbk_live_magento_es_es_products
Now imagine it in the intake hole in the panel beneath the fuse box.
Hook it up to the battery through an electronic speed controller. This you can hook up to a switch or pot. meter you operate by hand or via the loud pedal.
150€ max.
If you delete the duct through the rear panel, the space will be plenum chamber.
Alternatively I could stick a 90mm fan in the funnel air horn I fiited.
A 90mm 4S fan which can be fed from the car battery pumps through air at 50 m/2sec. which with the swept 50 cm2 adds up to over 2,5 times what the 1ZZ sucks in at 6K revs.
The boost though, that is a different matter: 2 kg of thrust does NOT equate bar charge. Also it is dynamic thrust. These fans are poor at building up pressure. Also the thrust needs to be divided by the surface to get ´pressure´ : 2 kg of thrust is only 0.04 kg/cm2 in a 50 cm2 tube.
The large diameter ensures that there is no resistance when not driven.
Also if the poopoo would hit the fan, any bits would be stopped by the filter.
With controlling electronics it would add up to 250€ for maybe 5% extra oompf.
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/wemotec/1691-edf-ducted-fan-wemotec-midi-fan-evo-het-650-58-2100.html
Well developing something and getting it to market cost's alot of money and well you know "Europe" this would be probably way cheaper if it came from USA the "Phantom ESC" was originally 1800USD(people also found this expensive) but well you can definetly tell the difference between the 2, you're right though for this thing to really take off worldwide it needs to be cheaper..
And well we we're definetly not expecting that much of a lead time...
Also i know you we're originally from holland were you can still customise your car somewhat but in Belgium just nothing is allowed at the MOT so a easily removable kit like this was the easiest choice though.
Quote from: MR2Bart1991 on May 22, 2020, 14:40Well developing something and getting it to market cost's alot of money and well you know "Europe" this would be probably way cheaper if it came from USA the "Phantom ESC" was originally 1800USD but well you can definetly tell the difference between the 2, you're right though for this thing to really take off worldwide it needs to be cheaper..
And well we we're definetly not expecting that much of a lead time...
Agreed.
Also I think it a véry good idea. Hence I started the thread.
For those still in the woods about fans because of youtube failures using 16A fans, have a look at this 48V 120A one;
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/jp-hobby/1062-edf-ducted-fan-jp-hobby-90mm-12s-motor.html
Ok, it is not a pressure pump. It will however produce close to 0.2 bar regardles of engine revs/load. Simple install and when you´ve emptied the battery it´s a 3 min. swap for a charged one.
With speed controller, two batteries and a charger 450€ max. Oh and 1 kilo in all.
@MR2Bart1991 Any update on this project yet?
Quote from: Topdownman on October 6, 2020, 12:41@MR2Bart1991
Any update on this project yet?
Sadly corona has set back alot at this moment.. the Torqueamp also has massieve production problems thanks to their suppliers.. so we are still waiting.
Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear about the delay but not surprising I guess.
Looking forward to hearing how you find it when you do finally get it!