Even though our MR2 Spyder is a sports car in the purist, most authentic meaning of that, it also is am affordable runabout; a róad car for the general public.
As such it is developed to be the optimal for the average user on the public roads. The development of the model, albeit sparse, points in this direction too: The FL is slighty beefed up and just that bit less oversteered still.
So; a compromise.
Thínk about that a moment.
It means the optimal for the market, the circumstances; a balance between properties.
THÍNK about that.
Poor yourselves a proper coffee and play with the thought.
Average driver, average road, optimum compromise.
Now WHY are ALL the availeble mods only going in ÓNE direction; that of perceived sportyness i.e. smoother tarmac and nothing towards more comfort, worse surfaces, better compliance??
It gets worse still:
Toyota sold the car on summer rubber, with the suspension optimalised for those.
Many a user would fit all weather or worse still cheaper tyres, both needing a SOFTER!! setting.
You see what I am getting at?
The starting point is a compromise. This per definition means one can, shoúld, go either way if circumstances change either way.
Most car folk are aware that for rain an F1 car of GP bike is fitted with more profile and softer suspension settings.
Yet when dealing with a sporty road car it is near impossible to point out that OEM springs/dampers are quite hard enough for all weather. Never mind badly maintained real world roads in winter.
All in all I find it weírd that áll ´go faster´ stuff only goes one way; the far from always faster stiffer way.
By and large I again blame motoring journalists. I can come up with only two examples pointing the softer way; James May with his lambasting the Nürburgring craze and a funny video of ´monkey´ playing with an AMG on four emergency wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kQrbPEXKU
I think our cars attracted mostly daily users when they were new whereas now they are mostly used as an extra car for occasional use. As a result they tend to be used for a different purpose. Plus, with warranties long expired and depreciation due to modifications less of an issue we can tinker away without much worry.
It is interesting that in general there aren't many comfort based car modifications but perhaps that is down to the easy availability of cheap older luxury cars but not much in the way of affordable focused sports cars?
Quote from: james_ly on January 15, 2020, 11:36https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9kQrbPEXKU
THANK you Sir.
Spot on what I mean. Very, véry pleased with your link. Truely enjoyed it.
This underlines my question; why, oh whý?
Looking at the video, this is similar to the theory behind the set up of the GT86. The tyres are narrow to allow it to slide around more. Unfortunately most drivers (myself included) aren't up to handling a car beyond its limits and need as much grip as possible!
Quote from: steveash on January 15, 2020, 15:19Unfortunately most drivers (myself included) aren't up to handling a car beyond its limits and need as much grip as possible!
More unfortunate still is the inherent problem with raising grip/performance levels.
Toyota shot themselves in the one foot with the Mk.2 MR2 and subsequently in the other by improving the car. They ended up canceling the car for the US.
By providing more grip, the speed/violence of crossing the limit increases too; i.e. the width of the waring/correction band gets narrower.
See the issue for the average driver?
The mistake you make is the ´handling a car beyond it´s limits´ perception.
The crux is that it is safer to have a wider band of warning/correction. Heck, it is even safer to have lower limits period as thus speeds will be lower thus everything slower with less energy, way easier to control and more gentle when things do go pear shaped.
Back to the MR2 (and Elise); for a normal driver it is safer that the car warns earlier and is easier to correct over a wider safety band. That is éasier to drive, correct. Thát is the crux of the video.
In my experience a car has passed its limits when it's in the ditch! If it's still on the road, pointing in the right direction and not hit owt, you might have brown pants but you were within limits. ;) Seriously, though, ten-tents, or even nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous. If a car feels like it might bite you at any point, it's not set up for the public roads.
My fresh stock suspension, slightly tall front tyres, good all-weather rubber and bracing that actually smooths the bumps, all make for a fantastic real-world driver's car that will not bite.
Stay safe peeps.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2020, 16:59and bracing that actually smooths the bumps,
OUCH!!!
I know you know they do not but the less technically versed may infer that bracing has anything to do with suspension.
That apart from us, although only éver so slightly!, disagreeing on the subject for road use ;-)
Back to the subject I remember an ancient comparison, from well into the previous century, between a factory tuned Mercedes 190 16 valver and some Porsche model. The 190 was quicker on track but the Porsche was unanimously preferred on the road as it had a way broader warning zone. In other words the limit of the 190 was further yonder but less easy thus safe to drive fast.
Mind you that is not adressing the (in)sanity of driving that fast on the public road. Thát is a whole different discussion. I cannot think of any 21st century car with unsafe handling at legal speed.
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2020, 17:23I cannot think of any 21st century car with unsafe handling at legal speed.
Maybe me getting older, but I get all the thrills I require within the legal limit.
It may also be down to the age of the car.
I find new cars so isolating you lack that sense of Speed because you are insulated and isolated. The fact that you can often take the bends in a 2 at legal speed where newer cars cannot is another matter. (heavier?)
As my tagline, I may be short but I am not shallow, I know full well the MR2 has far more capacity and cornering ability then I have talent. To pretend otherwise on public roads would be foolish. I get great satisfaction in my cheap as chips underpowered 14-year old little Japanese hairdressers car that is all over modern more powerful cars like a rash in The Bends
Quote from: Ardent on January 15, 2020, 20:46I get great satisfaction in my cheap as chips underpowered 14-year old little Japanese hairdressers car that is all over modern more powerful cars like a rash in The Bends
Hmmm. You dó have TTE turbo so that basically makes ricers! of us n.a. car drivers ... :-O
And concerning modern more powerful cars, well, there are some really hót hatches here in the village that are rather impressive on the local roads and appearantly disgustingly easy to drive that fast. By Jove those new superboxes are góód (albeit HÉAVY).
Dear
@Petrus I think before you were a member here, we had a "car limits" day.
Pulling a few things together. At the time, I had recently fitted the Yoko AD08r. The video above reinforces my take away from the day.
The tyres offer exceptional grip and cornering ability, until they don't. When they let go, they let go, instantaneously, there is no warning, no, we are now moving into the lack of grip zone you may wish adjust your approach.
Then again, that could just be my lack of talent.
But echos what you and the video allude to. The margin for error (lack of talent) is narrow. Perhaps better to have a more sympathetic tyre that warns you first, it is going to smack you in the face.
Rather than relying on the capabilities of the grippy tyre to keep me out the ditch
I think your example of the AD08Rs is very apt:
I hope I can express myself clearly in a foreign language...
Ok, the speed a tyre lte´s go can be expressed as a the rate of the slip angle change.
It stands to reason that the sáme rate at twice the speed happens twice as quickly.
As you know I delayed replacing the downright áwfull cheap rubber my car came on and that was exactly because of the above.
The tyres let go relatively quickly, thus at a high rate, at disappointingly slow speed. Because of the latter, the real time I had was rather ample.
The ADo8s I have fitted now give say twice (it is more but it is for example sake) more grip. Thus cornering speed is twice as high, the same rate of letting go would give me half the time.
Now if they would be 90% slower in breaking out they would still give me less actual seconds to catch it.
Calculating this the other way around, with two times the grip almost the same response time would be half the rate. I.e. twice the grip, twice as easy on me while not giving me more seconds.
The crux it that going quicker equals less time to respond/correct even if the car is rélatively more forgiving.
The MR has a strong point which is an inherent downside.
It turns véry quickly around it´s centre of mass as that is near the middle.
This makes for quick steering...
and a quick rate of slip angle change.
See the compounded issue?
It corners relatively fast = less actual time to respond to unwanted changes.
It changes direction relatively fast = less time...
Now add grippy rubber increasing cornering speed = all things happening quicker still!!! :o
This btw is also a very good explanation of why I deleted the power assistance. I now get the feedback directly, raw, unfiltered, undampened; power assistance works two ways! Your input amplified to the wheels means that the forces on the wheels are deminishes in your hands at the same rate.
I now feel any changes in grip or angle as much earlier as the pump assisted me before.
Same thing my corrections. It is as much easier to not overcorrect as the pump assisted me before.
Oh and braking HÁRD it is the same. Even when braking in an appearantly straight line I feel changes in grip = slip = direction as much earlier as... you get it.
Lastly: Try your brakes. Please, please pretty please find an empty place to experience the limits of your tyres, your brakes. This little cheap car punches well above it´s weight with the brakes. They are áwesome. Get confident to use them!
No, that was penultimate; lastly is ENJOY!!!! It is súch a delighful car.
In the previous century I wrote an akin article about it for a motorcycle mag.
I invented an easy visualisation; the pear shape rate. Things going wrong quicker at the same rate as the increase of speed are neutral.
I got a bit lost, well, I did not but the explanation did, in the positive and negative. Just like a pregnancy test can.
Now I would call it the pear shape index. Neutal being 100. Higher is quicker is bad. Lower is... etc.
Back to the subject ´softer´ generally means slower, both in actual speed and a lower pear shape index.
This compounded wider margin of error/warning/correction may very well make the mere mortal driver go quicker.
Phew.
And now my wine....
I found the AD08R's really progressive in the damp (provided it's not too cold).... and the grip level in the dry is so obscenely high that by the time they start to let go, the lateral load on the tyre is frankly ridiculous, so the speed that it lets go understandable... if you tyre pressures are wrong, expect the loss of grip to be anything but progressive!! As the tyre starts to lose grip, it deforms slightly and you suddenly lose a chunk of the contact patch, so you will go from bein gon the limit to way over it VERY quickly!!
Quote from: Petrus on January 15, 2020, 10:48funny video of ´monkey´ playing with an AMG on four emergency wheels.
Every time somebody talks about putting big wheels / wider rubber on their car (especially an MR2!), I send them that video :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY
That said, I do like the car to feel taught... too much softness isn't great.... but pram-wheels allow you to have fun at significantly less crazy speeds....
Quote from: BahnStormer on January 16, 2020, 11:33I found the AD08R's really progressive in the damp (provided it's not too cold).... and the grip level in the dry is so obscenely high that by the time they start to let go, the lateral load on the tyre is frankly ridiculous, so the speed that it lets go understandable... if you tyre pressures are wrong, expect the loss of grip to be anything but progressive!! As the tyre starts to lose grip, it deforms slightly and you suddenly lose a chunk of the contact patch, so you will go from bein gon the limit to way over it VERY quickly!!
That observed, the AD08R is not particularly brusque in letting go and you cán feel it coming; especially at the front you can feel/percive the onset of ´vagueness´ when they are at the limit.
Also when they let go, and you describe what happens accurately, they will recover if you give them the opportunity. Again that is most clearly felt/experienced at the front. At the back we encounter the inherent ´issue´ of our MR that it easily moves around the center of mass. It will behave like that with ány tyre and the higher the speed the shorter the time we have to correct.
It is worthwhile to understand hów these tyres achieve their grip; it is the high hysteresis of the rubber compound; the energy lost/dissipated/absorbed by the deformation. This is not just the shape oof the contact patch but more importantly the way the rubber (de)forms following the surface shape.
This energy dissipation is highest júst before exceeding the limit and is also on the limit of the integrity of the rubber itself; just before particles separate.
When óver that limit, the friction coefficient lówers a bit, hence ´brusque´ sliding. When watching powerfull motorcycles racing you can see the riders provóke the onset of sliding and try operate in the margin where they benefit from energy dissipation from material torn off yet stay on the bit befóre the coeffient takes a dive. The typical highside illustrates the sudden gaín of traction under lower load.
Under braking we can see the same. Optimal braking occurs when the rubber deforms, loses material but not lets go yet. That is the black stripe left without actually skidding.
Back to the rear end of our MR is means that we need to get sensitive to the ónset of max deformation. Oh and NÓT lift when we think we feel a twitch, éasy with the easing or just holding it.
Quote from: Carolyn on January 15, 2020, 16:59In my experience a car has passed its limits when it's in the ditch! If it's still on the road, pointing in the right direction and not hit owt, you might have brown pants but you were within limits. ;) Seriously, though, ten-tents, or even nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous. If a car feels like it might bite you at any point, it's not set up for the public roads.
There is an adage in racing. You haven't really crashed until you hit something and stopped moving. Being stuck in the ditch qualifies.
But I totally agree with " nine-tenths driving on public roads is dumb and dangerous". Any speed that takes you out of your lane or requires too much road is potentially dangerous.
I don't think it has been lost, but just for absolute clarity, the car limit day was precisely that, an area to find out where the limit is.
The high speed bend, was designed to provoke loss of traction.
Would never approach anything like the speed required on the road.
Quote from: Ardent on January 16, 2020, 17:36Would never approach anything like the speed required on the road.
It was scary
Span so much the ecu thought I had an accident and fuel cut the car.
Just watched the vid. Like that.
Going back to the Car limits day, At the time, I thought it made sense to get the AD08r on the car prior to the day, as they would be the tyre I would be using after. Still seems logical.
However, some years later (now) and a smidge wiser, it would have been better to have kept the old tyres on. In effect I unknowingly short changed myself, from getting the most out of the day.
In an ideal world, it would be great to rock up, and fit a set of knackered tyres for all the reasons laid out above.
All the above has made me reconsider my next tyre choice.
I cannot exploit the advantages of he yokos, so may save a few £££s and spend that on fuel instead.
Quote from: Ardent on January 16, 2020, 21:39All the above has made me reconsider my next tyre choice.
I cannot exploit the advantages of he yokos, so may save a few £££s and spend that on fuel instead.
Mwah.
Have a look again at the summer/winter test.
Unless your average conditions are near/sub zero cccccold ánd wet, the AD08Rs offer better braking than all seasons throught most of the year. Well, with the caveat of cold tyres which applies to ány tyres apart from full snowies which are a NoNo on anything but snow.
Unless you swap a second set of rims with allweathers for the winter, the summer tyre is a stróng contender even if you are not rubbing the door latches on the tarmac; it is the few meters shorter braking distance that suit ányone.
Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 10:57Unless your average conditions are near/sub zero cccccold ánd wet, the AD08Rs offer better braking than all seasons throught most of the year. Well, with the caveat of cold tyres which applies to ány tyres apart from full snowies which are a NoNo on anything but snow.
Unless you swap a second set of rims with allweathers for the winter, the summer tyre is a stróng contender even if you are not rubbing the door latches on the tarmac; it is the few meters shorter braking distance that suit ányone.
Anything below 5C and AD08R's need to be used with caution... all my comments about them letting go progressively refer to >10C air temps at at least...
I've got a set of 4 or 5yr old Conti summer road tyres that that still have good tread depth, but are looking a little long in the tooth.... a limits day sounds like the PERFECT opportunity - when is the next one?!?
Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer and I want to be able to feel as soon as the front starts "nibbling".... I've never had that on stock suspension (although admittedly you might on fresh, stock suspension).
If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.
I have zero comfort issues driving my track focused Roadster on the road fully braced, front and rear ARB's, stripped, super stiff AR1 track tyres with -4 rear/-2.5 front negative camber and Meister R coilovers on full soft.
Never driven a OE roadster but going from mine to OE spec would probably feel like a pudding anyway.
Quote from: BahnStormer on January 17, 2020, 13:17Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer
That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.
Quote from: JB21 on January 17, 2020, 14:19If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.
Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?
My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...
Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 15:06Quote from: JB21 on January 17, 2020, 14:19If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.
Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?
My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...
So, if OEM is a Pudding, then any variation may be considered to be a Wet Nelly (look it up) with Custard, Maltesers and Sprinkles et al - based on what?
Quote from: SV-3 on January 17, 2020, 15:46Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 15:06Quote from: JB21 on January 17, 2020, 14:19If you want more comfort purchase something else, simple. What's the point in making a mid engine sports car into a pudding, it'll just lose all of its characteristics.
Well, why turn it into a plank if that only sharpens the edge?
My point was and is that OEM is a very good compromise and that compromise inherently means you can go either way depending on your priorities yet there is only lower/harder...
So, if OEM is a Pudding, then any variation may be considered to be a Wet Nelly (look it up) with Custard, Maltesers and Sprinkles et al - based on what?
It´s all relative. For mé the OEM suspension is sporting firm and soft enough for real world B-roads. Any harder/lower and it would be more limited in my world, not better. Call it any food you like.
My point; why is harder/lower the only offering whereas going the other way has benefits to offer too. See the video per example and that is not even mentioning ground clearance.
Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!
I already have two cars set up for combined B-roads and camino fun, otherwise I´d go for it.
The MR Spyder has a, deliberate, rear weight bias. That dictates a softer front in everything stock.
When tuning this remains, include less negative camber up front.
That however says nothing about tuning softer than OEM.
The Spirit videos give rather hárd for all even in Touge trim. That is very specific rácing though. Not neccessarily an example to follow for real world open B-roads.
The most interesting Í found the stock brakes!!!
Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 16:05Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!
I already have two cars set up for combined B-roads and camino fun, otherwise I´d go for it.
There was a guy I'm sure, that had turned an MR2 into a sort of rally car. Google is giving me anything but a space-framed MR2 dune buggy!
Quote from: mr2noob on January 17, 2020, 23:43Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 16:05Mán how nice this car would be on gravel caminos when 50 mm or so higher on the legs, front to rear flush full skid plates and lsd. OEM rims, narrower/higher section gravel rubber, WOW!!
https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/rally-mr-s.130545/
Thanks for the link.
Read that some time ago and wondered why the guy did not stárt with some basic mods, but then I have done my share of stupid thing is the past as well.
The ´caminos´ I am talking about are thoúsands of kilometers of hard pack local roads connecting the rural bits of Spain. Is is áwesome when you can travel them. Simply a different world where you only encounter the local locals. You don´t need a 4x4 or so. Just more wheel travel, softer, progressive springs, ´snow´ rubber and belly protction. The latter needs not be all thát rugged as you are not going rock bashing, not going óff road, just unmetalled road.
I´d seriously LÓVE it with the MR Spyder.
Quote from: mr2noob on January 18, 2020, 15:11Hopefully you can see the kind of "road" it is. The incline where the pavement stopped and rock began was very steep, don't think I could've climbed it with a RWD car, at least not without difficulty.
Just like we have. Hugely fun with rwd; just don´t lose momentum or you´l need to go back till the next bend; the connecting bits between hairpins tend to be less steep.
It is when you learn about kinetic energy traction; the weight of the gravel spun backwards ´pushing´ the car forwards.
Going up the slopes it is a finer balance; spinning enough to gain push, not so much you loose too much traction.
QuoteBtw., when you're already here, Petrus, with cars that have roof scoops, like rally cars, is it possible to close the roof scoop to cut off the incoming air? If yes, where does that forced air then go in order to not tear the scoop off?
There are several functions for air scoops. The older cars used to have small flaps in the roof opening forward of rearward and could simply be closed. Like LandRovers and older R4, 2CVs per example.
Other roof scoops direct air over the mid or rear engine. When running under cold condition simplest is taping the aperture as needed.
More modern rallye cars have incredibly efficient filtered ventilation systems fed from the from or bonnet. Today´s prototypes running in the Dakar go 500 kms through dust at an average of 125 km/h and arrive at the fnish with the interior kept dust free. You have to see to believe.
So, whichever gen. your potential issue simply does not come into play.
(https://myalbum.com/photo/VKqbkDwM6qj7/1k0.jpg)
(https://myalbum.com/photo/LovXvy7lpeaq/1k0.jpg)
this is as bad as I let it get for the De Kikker.
This my drive:
(https://myalbum.com/photo/y91omfUZncI3/1k0.jpg)
and next is what I woúld do:
(https://myalbum.com/photo/pwnzoF6rrZuJ/1k0.jpg)
(https://myalbum.com/photo/XMylj0t7aq2Y/1k0.jpg)
remeber spaghetti westerns with Ennio Morecone music; shot in the Tavernas desert in Almeria?
We crossed it northeast - southwest and .... it rained!!
(https://myalbum.com/photo/SjHHagNG23AL/1k0.jpg)
with the óther car same formula illustrated by
(https://myalbum.com/photo/1p7TVBqkjuEH/1k0.jpg)
invented a vat of extra nothing; a vacuum buffer for shifting under full throttle on looooong bumpy ascends
(https://myalbum.com/photo/4q9k6XnY99Xl/1k0.jpg)
the route, sort of; 2500 kms of hardpack and worse
(https://myalbum.com/photo/MewM3oakFhGf/1k0.jpg)
have action photos sómewhere; on this there´s always nude gf´s in the shot of the whole car, sorry.
Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 15:03Quote from: BahnStormer on January 17, 2020, 13:17Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer
That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.
That characteristic is OEM, but being able to feel it is critical to being able to control it when you're on the edge... and I think you can get a better feel with well setup (non-OEM) geometry and slightly stiffer suspension... that said, I found the 4kg/6kg BC Racing coilovers a bit rattly with AD08R's, but the Tein springs + Koni shocks are a lot more forgiving....
Quote from: BahnStormer on January 19, 2020, 20:09Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 15:03Quote from: BahnStormer on January 17, 2020, 13:17Back on topic though - I like my suspension and steering to be taught enough that if you're cornering hard without pre-loading the front, there's a risk of understeer
That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.
That characteristic is OEM, but being able to feel it is critical to being able to control it when you're on the edge... and I think you can get a better feel with well setup (non-OEM) geometry and slightly stiffer suspension... that said, I found the 4kg/6kg BC Racing coilovers a bit rattly with AD08R's, but the Tein springs + Koni shocks are a lot more forgiving....
I was lóath to go lower or stiffer as that limits functionality for me and decided to improve feel by adding some bracing and do a p.a.s. delete.
Quote from: mr2noob on January 20, 2020, 20:06Quote from: Petrus on January 17, 2020, 15:03That´s OEM I think.
On turn in without loading it is understeered. Load it and it tracks true.
Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?
Getting the weight over the front on turn in. E.g. lifting or braking. Makes a big difference and the only way to drive it IMO. Best learned on a track though!
As answered.
A third is shifting weight by gently flicking the wrong way, out then in, the supersoft version of the scandinavian flick without the handbrake. On series of corners or p.e, some roundabouts you can ´do´ it in the flow by your position on the width of the road/track.
As noted NOT someting to try on the public road.
Be aware that, temporarily, shifting the balance is not the same as actually moving weight. Going uphill versus downhill is ... different.
Ditto the camber of the road which can be negative, positive or a trichy crown ready to upset your intentions between two corners.
Another word of caution; we are talking lower speed turn in.
In general our MR likes it best when you have all done when peeling of into a corner.
Quote from: mr2noob on January 20, 2020, 20:06Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?
As James has said - best learned / practised on a track / empty airfield.... but the car has fundamentally different levels of front-end grip if you:
a) go through a corner at a flat 40mph
VERSUS
b) decelerate from 60mph to 40mph (in a straight line) and THEN tuck the nose into the same corner at the same speed...
The difference is that if you've timed this right, then some of the car's weight has just been transferred forward as you've decelerated... worth noting that this gives you more front end grip and likely more speed and control through the apex, but more weight over the front means less on the rear and will result in more risk of throttle oversteer on the exit; if you're careful on the throttle and gradually ease the power in as the weight transfers back to the rear, this is utterly awesome and will make you look and feel like a hero, but only if managed carefully... time it right and the effect will make your heart sing... get it wrong and you will probably leave the corner backwards...
Essentially you're trying to create the front-end grip effects of trail-braking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking#Driving)... Please note that high speed trail-braking is best avoided in a short wheelbase, rear weight biased car like ours unless you have either a lot of experience or a lot of run-off before the tyre wall...
I've experienced high speed trail breaking in my old turbo.
It's was quite exciting.
I was utterly amazed I didn't die.
What amazing feats that the well trained can perform.
Was an instructor on our car limits day.
Quote from: BahnStormer on January 21, 2020, 10:08Quote from: mr2noob on January 20, 2020, 20:06Please forgive my ignorance, but pre-load how?
As James has said - best learned / practised on a track / empty airfield.... but the car has fundamentally different levels of front-end grip if you:
a) go through a corner at a flat 40mph
VERSUS
b) decelerate from 60mph to 40mph (in a straight line) and THEN tuck the nose into the same corner at the same speed...
The difference is that if you've timed this right, then some of the car's weight has just been transferred forward as you've decelerated... worth noting that this gives you more front end grip and likely more speed and control through the apex, but more weight over the front means less on the rear and will result in more risk of throttle oversteer on the exit; if you're careful on the throttle and gradually ease the power in as the weight transfers back to the rear, this is utterly awesome and will make you look and feel like a hero, but only if managed carefully... time it right and the effect will make your heart sing... get it wrong and you will probably leave the corner backwards...
Essentially you're trying to create the front-end grip effects of trail-braking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking#Driving)... Please note that high speed trail-braking is best avoided in a short wheelbase, rear weight biased car like ours unless you have either a lot of experience or a lot of run-off before the tyre wall...
Thanks for the explanetory perspective and the (highlighted) caveat. The crux being effect of trail braking but nót trail braking.
A relatively safe way to get to grips with the principle is to reverse it.
Find a wide roundabout on a deserted industrial estate. Position the car on the outside and from a standstill accellerate round. This means you will go straight and then need to turn reatively brisquely under accelaration. Understeer on turn in practically guaranteed.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 21, 2020, 10:28I've experienced high speed trail breaking in my old turbo.
It's was quite exciting.
I was utterly amazed I didn't die.
What amazing feats that the well trained can perform.
Was an instructor on our car limits day.
Yep - that's what those limits days are for, definitely keen for the next one: when it comes to road driving, I aim to finish each journey exhilarated in ways other than "amazed I didn't die"....
Quote from: BahnStormer on January 21, 2020, 13:43Quote from: 1979scotte on January 21, 2020, 10:28when it comes to road driving, I aim to finish each journey exhilarated in ways other than "amazed I didn't die"....
Best not let me drive you anywhere then 😂
You can learn how to transfer weight on the road very easily. Just learn how to trail brake. Everyone will do it in some way shape or form on the road without even noticing it. Once you have an understanding of trail braking you can really exploit grip that wouldn't be there otherwise versus just braking in a straight line and turning in where the car is neutral.
Even if you don't have the fastest car out on track and even on the road if that's what you're into you can really make time up on much faster cars (not faster drivers) honing your trail braking technique. I can pretty much out brake most cars on track using it given how light and agile the MR2 is and its 100% where I make up most of my time on track over faster cars. You can brake much later as you can brake all the way to the apex giving you more front end grip, less understeer also rotating the car where you want it. More inexperienced drivers brake in a straight line, lift off, turn in towards the apex and then only accelerate on or after the apex. Think how much time is lost with the car being neutral (no braking, no accelerating) not to mention they wont have the additional front end grip on entry or benefit of being able to rotate the car into the apex to give you a better line on exit to get on the power earlier.
This Driver61 article by Scott Mansell is very intuitive.
https://driver61.com/uni/trail-braking/
Thanks for the explanation of both trail braking and the differences between traack and open road; you put the finger on the crux of this thread; that track requirements are not the same as those for the public road.
On the public road you strive to drive with ample grip reserve and need more compliance.
That said, to be able to drive like that it helps to know where the limits are and that you have several tools in your tool boy of driving skills.