Hi all,
I have a bit of a dilemma with my camshafts for my build, here is my issue:
I have a set of reground pipercams for forced induction
I have measured the clearance with them fitted to the cylinder head with the valves
The base circle diameter has been ground down by Piper meaning that there is quite a lot of clearance between the cam and the bucket
The shimless bucket required to bring them into spec don't exist (would need buckets between 74 and 90 equivalent) - largest bucket I can get is a 72
Here are my options:
1. Fit shimmed Supertech buckets and shims to bring them into spec and use the Piper cams - downside is I would need to buy a full set of shimmable buckets as well as the fact that I don't really want to run a shimmed bucket at higher RPM as they can fail.
2. Bin the Pipercams and buy a set of Crower stage 2 FI cams from the states - I believe these are from new blanks so would have the correct base circle diameter, I would still need to probably buy a few buckets but I have 48 buckets of various sizes in the garage but at least they will be within spec to use OEM shimless buckets.
3. Bin the Pipercams and fit a set of OEM camshafts - these will work fine with the OEM shimless buckets but I might be down on power vs the performance cams.
Basically:
Option 1 = Some cost, will bring the clearance into spec but might have a catastrophic failure
Option 2 = VERY VERY expensive but should allow the engine to make the most power and retain shimless buckets
Option 3 = lowest cost, will keep shimless buckets but won't make as much power
Not sure what to do really, I have dropped Pipercams an email to see what they say as they have basically provided me with a set of cams that are unusable for the OEM setup (although still technically usable if converting over to shimmed buckets).
Have you tried stock cams in head to see if you can get correct clearance since you rebuilt head?
If so i would try get refund on piper cams and run stock they should make plenty of power, you can always swap to crowers in future if you want that last bit of topend.
You could also get valve seats recut to sit valves in more to close up clearance for pipers, might be cheapest way of using them if they won't refund.
Id do what thetyrant said. On the plus side the OEM will spool the turbo way faster due to the small valve overlap.
Id also look into CAT cams as their FI cams have less valve overlap than OEM but unsure if they are making them from blanks or not. They have some specs on their site.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 05:38Have you tried stock cams in head to see if you can get correct clearance since you rebuilt head?
If so i would try get refund on piper cams and run stock they should make plenty of power, you can always swap to crowers in future if you want that last bit of topend.
You could also get valve seats recut to sit valves in more to close up clearance for pipers, might be cheapest way of using them if they won't refund.
These seats can't be cut or ground unfortunately.
I have found that Supertech do their own cam followers that I can then run the supertech plates to make up the clearance. Another option is to run lash caps and OEM followers, I can get 5.5mm lash caps, however I think the skirt of the lash cap will be too long meaning that it would actually be resting on the keepers, also the underside of the OEM cam follower is machined only for the 5.5mm valve with the rest of the post being untouched. If I were to run lash caps they would sit on the keepers on one side and on the unmachined underside of the follower on the other side.
I think my option would be to either run stock cams or go all out and get a full set of supertech lifters and plates to make up the clearances - still don't like the idea of having any sort of shim in there but at least they are under bucket rather than on top!
The piper cams I have run a 32 degree overlap, looks like the stock overlap is 29 degrees and it looks like the Crower cams have a 14 degree overlap.
Quote from: Carolyn on May 18, 2020, 07:39These seats can't be cut or ground unfortunately.
Thats a bugger :(
Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 08:10I have found that Supertech do their own cam followers that I can then run the supertech plates to make up the clearance. Another option is to run lash caps and OEM followers, I can get 5.5mm lash caps, however I think the skirt of the lash cap will be too long meaning that it would actually be resting on the keepers, also the underside of the OEM cam follower is machined only for the 5.5mm valve with the rest of the post being untouched. If I were to run lash caps they would sit on the keepers on one side and on the unmachined underside of the follower on the other side.
I think my option would be to either run stock cams or go all out and get a full set of supertech lifters and plates to make up the clearances - still don't like the idea of having any sort of shim in there but at least they are under bucket rather than on top!
The piper cams I have run a 32 degree overlap, looks like the stock overlap is 29 degrees and it looks like the Crower cams have a 14 degree overlap.
Have you had stock cams in for clearance check ?
Quote from: Nvy on May 18, 2020, 06:44Id also look into CAT cams as their FI cams have less valve overlap than OEM but unsure if they are making them from blanks or not.
The cams they offer are from blanks but when asked they will regrind too.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 08:35Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 08:10I have found that Supertech do their own cam followers that I can then run the supertech plates to make up the clearance. Another option is to run lash caps and OEM followers, I can get 5.5mm lash caps, however I think the skirt of the lash cap will be too long meaning that it would actually be resting on the keepers, also the underside of the OEM cam follower is machined only for the 5.5mm valve with the rest of the post being untouched. If I were to run lash caps they would sit on the keepers on one side and on the unmachined underside of the follower on the other side.
I think my option would be to either run stock cams or go all out and get a full set of supertech lifters and plates to make up the clearances - still don't like the idea of having any sort of shim in there but at least they are under bucket rather than on top!
The piper cams I have run a 32 degree overlap, looks like the stock overlap is 29 degrees and it looks like the Crower cams have a 14 degree overlap.
Have you had stock cams in for clearance check ?
I have gone through all of the clearance checking, I don't have stock cams spare anymore as Pipercams took them as a core exchange - looks like they have reground OEM cams rather than used fresh blanks meaning that the cams are unusable using the OEM method which I am really rather angry about as they aren't fit for purpose.
Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 09:07Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 08:35Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 08:10I have found that Supertech do their own cam followers that I can then run the supertech plates to make up the clearance. Another option is to run lash caps and OEM followers, I can get 5.5mm lash caps, however I think the skirt of the lash cap will be too long meaning that it would actually be resting on the keepers, also the underside of the OEM cam follower is machined only for the 5.5mm valve with the rest of the post being untouched. If I were to run lash caps they would sit on the keepers on one side and on the unmachined underside of the follower on the other side.
I think my option would be to either run stock cams or go all out and get a full set of supertech lifters and plates to make up the clearances - still don't like the idea of having any sort of shim in there but at least they are under bucket rather than on top!
The piper cams I have run a 32 degree overlap, looks like the stock overlap is 29 degrees and it looks like the Crower cams have a 14 degree overlap.
Have you had stock cams in for clearance check ?
I have gone through all of the clearance checking, I don't have stock cams spare anymore as Pipercams took them as a core exchange - looks like they have reground OEM cams rather than used fresh blanks meaning that the cams are unusable using the OEM method which I am really rather angry about as they aren't fit for purpose.
If the work done is "not fit for purpose", and it certainly sounds like it, that is surely one good reason for a refund and replacement of your OE cams.
Quote from: Joesson on May 18, 2020, 09:18Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 09:07Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 08:35Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 08:10I have found that Supertech do their own cam followers that I can then run the supertech plates to make up the clearance. Another option is to run lash caps and OEM followers, I can get 5.5mm lash caps, however I think the skirt of the lash cap will be too long meaning that it would actually be resting on the keepers, also the underside of the OEM cam follower is machined only for the 5.5mm valve with the rest of the post being untouched. If I were to run lash caps they would sit on the keepers on one side and on the unmachined underside of the follower on the other side.
I think my option would be to either run stock cams or go all out and get a full set of supertech lifters and plates to make up the clearances - still don't like the idea of having any sort of shim in there but at least they are under bucket rather than on top!
The piper cams I have run a 32 degree overlap, looks like the stock overlap is 29 degrees and it looks like the Crower cams have a 14 degree overlap.
Have you had stock cams in for clearance check ?
I have gone through all of the clearance checking, I don't have stock cams spare anymore as Pipercams took them as a core exchange - looks like they have reground OEM cams rather than used fresh blanks meaning that the cams are unusable using the OEM method which I am really rather angry about as they aren't fit for purpose.
If the work done is "not fit for purpose", and it certainly sounds like it, that is surely one good reason for a refund and replacement of your OE cams.
I messaged Pipercams yesterday and will see what they say, I mean technically they will work, but not using the OEM method of setting clearance. I think the Crower cams use new blanks so the base circle diameter is the same as stock so you can use the OEM method of setting clearance. I can only think that Pipercams just assumed that the clearance is set via movable shims rather than shimless buckets.
@m1tch said:
" I can only think that Pipercams just assumed that the clearance is set via movable shims rather than shimless buckets."
"Never assume" was my mantra for guidance of my new "colleagues" when I was working.
Quote from: Joesson on May 18, 2020, 09:38@m1tch said:
" I can only think that Pipercams just assumed that the clearance is set via movable shims rather than shimless buckets."
"Never assume" was my mantra for guidance of my new "colleagues" when I was working.
I agree - will see what Pipercams say, I think they just cut corners to save the cost of a new cam blank
Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 09:07I have gone through all of the clearance checking, I don't have stock cams spare anymore as Pipercams took them as a core exchange - looks like they have reground OEM cams rather than used fresh blanks meaning that the cams are unusable using the OEM method which I am really rather angry about as they aren't fit for purpose.
Ok thats a shame, im not clear if you checked the clearance with oe cams before sending off to Piper ? im guessing not from what you have said but im just trying to work out if if might not be the cams but other work on head like new aftermarket valves for example that might be causing the clearance issue.
Ive seen in before where aftermarket valves have caused this issue either due to thicker heads or longer/shorter stems, often the valves are supplied longer than required and need a trim to get clearance required, not so easy to add length though, especially if seats can not be cut :(
Regrind is common and you can usually tell from price, we get new chilled iron cam blanks made here for the old Aston vb6 engines and they are quite pricey, more than the grinding! if old cams are reground correctly taking into account valve clearances etc there is no issue with doing it but as they are removing material it needs careful planning, they should be aware of the bucket shims on these cars so maybe they have a solution.
Will be interesting to see what they say about if if you can get an answer.
After only a brief look on the Piper website I can't see an option for vvti, only Li for the Celica.
Maybe there's been some crossed wires, lack of understanding at some point in the ordering process if indeed they have been wrongly ground to 2zz specs.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 10:02not so easy to add length though, especially if seats can not be cut :(
The thing could be valve caps. That is a very common ans safe shimming solution too. Thin caps and thin buckets might do the trick.
Just as an aside to the main problem, be mindful of your terminology when you're contacting Piper. This engine doesn't use "followers" and there's no way you could use them to solve the problem.
If you've mentioned followers in your communications with Piper previously it could've led them down the 2zz path.
Just humour me here David, purely brianstorming to look down every avenue.
You have removed the standard spring seats and fitted the Supertech seats the right way up haven't you?
Again just throwing stuff out there, we all make weird mistakes at times.
It might be of benefit to share the images of your clearance measurements here as well, they all looked a bit too uniform to me when you put them on Facebook.
It might let some fresh eyes see something others have missed.
The thinnest lash cap I can get is a 1mm cap, would need a negative number bucket on the intake side to get to clearance with that - I could go with the Supertech follower and shim for all 16 of them which would sort the issue out but ideally I wouldn't really want to be running shims.
Basically I can't get shimless buckets thick enough but I also can't get lash caps that are thin enough to work with any shimless buckets. An option is to grind down the post on the OEM bucket to smaller than stock and fit a lash cap but not really happy with that option either.
I have installed the seats the correct way up - they are dual valve springs with the seat sitting inside the springs to centre them.
Below are the specs I have including the bucket thickness and the clearances - the installed height of the springs would be the same, the cams are 100% reground and I have used buckets in basically the same range so I would expect things to be fairly uniform - the clearances were done with a feeler gauge so its only as accurate as I could go. Worth noting that the 'bucket number' on the sheet below relates to the actual bucket number when measuring it rather than the actual number on the bucket.
(https://i.imgur.com/kECCSQL.jpg)
Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 09:59Quote from: Joesson on May 18, 2020, 09:38@m1tch said:
" I can only think that Pipercams just assumed that the clearance is set via movable shims rather than shimless buckets."
"Never assume" was my mantra for guidance of my new "colleagues" when I was working.
I agree - will see what Pipercams say, I think they just cut corners to save the cost of a new cam blank
"just cut corners" is exactly what they've done !
Quote from: Joesson on May 18, 2020, 12:10Quote from: m1tch on May 18, 2020, 09:59Quote from: Joesson on May 18, 2020, 09:38@m1tch said:
" I can only think that Pipercams just assumed that the clearance is set via movable shims rather than shimless buckets."
"Never assume" was my mantra for guidance of my new "colleagues" when I was working.
I agree - will see what Pipercams say, I think they just cut corners to save the cost of a new cam blank
"just cut corners" is exactly what they've done !
If the base circle diameter was 0.3mm larger then everything would be fine - might still run the stock camshafts though, looking at the specs on the Pipercams they aren't really much different to stock.
I am going to modify some stock buckets and remove some of the post on the inside to create an OEM bucket that is less than OEM (there is still a fair amount of post on the inside of the buckets even with the lower numbered bucket).
The smallest lash cap I can find is a 1.35mm cap so I should be able to reduce the bucket thickness down to then be able to accept the lash caps.
Not ideal but an option I am going to look into.
Im not sure i would go down that route as would imagine its going to be difficult to accurately machine out the post in the buckets to allow for the lash cap, it will be very tough material as well due its required usage possibly just a hardened surface which once removed could be too soft, also as you need various sizes it would be a hell of mission imo
I would think you would be better off removing the material off the valve stems then fit the lash caps if you continue with the pipers.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 18, 2020, 14:41Im not sure i would go down that route as would imagine its going to be difficult to accurately machine out the post in the buckets to allow for the lash cap, it will be very tough material as well due its required usage possibly just a hardened surface which once removed could be too soft, also as you need various sizes it would be a hell of mission imo
I would think you would be better off removing the material off the valve stems then fit the lash caps if you continue with the pipers.
I am going to see what Pipercams say first, ideally I don't really want to be running shims at all, there isn't a huge amount of clearance at the top of the valve stem for much grinding else the skirt of the lash cap might touch the collets etc.
I would only need to remove around 0.5mm off the posts within the followers, will try on a junk one first to see what its like but probably won't need much to remove material.
I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.
Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm
Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.
It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.
Quote from: m1tch on May 24, 2020, 17:03I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.
Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm
Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.
It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.
Let me know what buckets you need. The bank does't have all sizes - but we can usually get pretty close.
I tend to go for .20 inlet and .30 exhaust, which is in the middle of the range specified. (As you already know.)
Quote from: Carolyn on May 24, 2020, 18:04Quote from: m1tch on May 24, 2020, 17:03I have just fitted a set of OEM camshafts to the head, looks like most of the tolerances are slightly too tight now typically but at least that should be fairly easy to fix. Think I might just bin the Pipercams, no response so far from them and as a company they don't seem to care that the cams provided cannot be used.
Intake side clearances are between 0.00mm and 0.15mm
Exhaust side clearances are between 0.15mm and 0.30mm
Current buckets on the intake side are between 38 and 42 with the exhaust side having buckets between 36 and 40.
It would seem I need to run (if aiming for optimal between the OEM spec clearances) of a 24 to a 34 bucket on the intake and a 22 to 38 bucket on the exhaust side. I do have 4 of the buckets that were within minimum spec in terms of clearance but might aim for optimal clearance rather than them running too tight.
Let me know what buckets you need. The bank does't have all sizes - but we can usually get pretty close.
I tend to go for .20 inlet and .30 exhaust, which is in the middle of the range specified. (As you already know.)
Ok, here goes, I have checked everything but I can't seem to add a table onto this forum where it formats it correctly but here are the figures:
Intake Bucket thickness Calculated bucket number Current intake clearance Clearance needed Additional clearance Corrected bucket clearance Calculated bucket number
1 5.426 42 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.276 26
2 5.402 40 0.15 0.20 0.05 5.352 34
3 5.445 44 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.295 28
4 5.433 42 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.283 28
5 5.389 38 0.10 0.20 0.10 5.289 28
6 5.461 46 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.311 30
7 5.450 44 0.05 0.20 0.15 5.300 30
8 5.408 40 0.10 0.20 0.10 5.308 30
Exhaust Bucket thickness Calculated bucket number Current exhaust clearance Clearance needed Additional clearance Corrected bucket clearance Calculated bucket number
1 5.395 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.295 28
2 5.406 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.306 30
3 5.400 40 0.20 0.30 0.10 5.300 30
4 5.392 38 0.25 0.30 0.05 5.342 34
5 5.396 40 0.30 0.30 0.00 5.396 38
6 5.382 38 0.15 0.30 0.15 5.232 22
7 5.373 36 0.25 0.30 0.05 5.323 32
8 5.379 38 0.15 0.30 0.15 5.229 22 |
I have measured the buckets with a micrometer to get the actual sizes rather than the numbers, but also worked out the numbers they would be equivalent to. These are for the middle clearance eg 0.2mm for intake, 0.3mm for exhaust so buckets each side would work (its why I have also put the mm).
Below are the buckets needed to correct the clearances
Buckets needed
22
22
26
28
28
28
28
30
30
30
30
30
32
34
34
38
From this list I have only 5 of them, meaning I need these, quite a lot of 28s and 30s it seems! I am guessing the bucket numbers are lower than I would have thought probably due to the brand new valves (meaning the valve stem tip isn't worn at all).
22
22
26
28
28
28
28
30
30
30
30
I have over 40 usable buckets in my collection at the moment so happy to help anyone else out with the bucket bank.
Also worth noting that I have gone to 3 DP, I can see that E1 bucket is at 5.295 so technically a 28 bucket but could easily be rounded to 30 - also going with the middle clearance it means that I could go up or down 2 bucket sizes - ideally not tighter though.
Hopefully the bucket bank has at least a few in stock, luckily its in the lower range which I know aren't as desirable.
This is what we've got that's close...this would wipe out the bank for the smaller numbers.
1x26, 1x27, 1x28, 2x30, 3x31 and 2x32.
I have appealed more than once for new contributions to the bank, with no success. Spit originally built up the bank and I have made additions by breaking poor engines and donating the buckets.
We need both smaller sizes and ones in the 45 plus range.
All 'out's' from the bank need to be replaced with whatever you might have.
Quote from: Carolyn on May 25, 2020, 11:18This is what we've got that's close...this would wipe out the bank for the smaller numbers.
1x26, 1x27, 1x28, 2x30, 3x31 and 2x32.
I have appealed more than once for new contributions to the bank, with no success. Spit originally built up the bank and I have made additions by breaking poor engines and donating the buckets.
We need both smaller sizes and ones in the 45 plus range.
All 'out's' from the bank need to be replaced with whatever you might have.
Do you have the mm size of the buckets at all? Guessing these bucket sizes have been worked out with the size of the bucket rather than what is marked on them.
I will be donating all of the buckets I have to the bank - will be any of the spare ones plus another full set once I pull the stock engine.
In my experience of measuring buckets, they rarely differ significantly from the number marked on them. Certainly not enough to make a meaningful difference.
However, I have measured them and they are as advertised.
Your contributions to the bank will be gratefully appreciated!
I take it you want these?
Quote from: Carolyn on May 25, 2020, 13:03In my experience of measuring buckets, they rarely differ significantly from the number marked on them. Certainly not enough to make a meaningful difference.
However, I have measured them and they are as advertised.
Your contributions to the bank will be gratefully appreciated!
I take it you want these?
I thought that buckets only go up in even steps but I guess there are inbetween bucket sizes as well - as you mention even if they are 2-4 sizes different they will still be within spec as the sizes I am aiming for are mid point - will be double checking the exact thicknesses to match them against the clearances. One '28' bucket might be say closer to a 30 whereas another might be only just a 28 - I am probably getting a bit too accurate on these as I only have a set of feeler gauges that go to 0.05mm so not quite as accurate as a micrometer!
It would be great if I could have them - as mentioned, once I get my engine together I am happy to send over all of my spare buckets. Would have around 60 spare at that point in the 38 to 50 range, have rejected a couple of them as they seem to have been run with less oiling and have worn slightly but most are in great condition.
Yes, you're being a tad OCD on thicknesses!
PM your address and I'll send them - or as you're only in Bedford, you could come and do a socially distanced pick-up.
Thanks to
@Carolyn and the bucket bank I have now managed to clearance the stock camshafts with the Supertech valvetrain and will be donating 40+ buckets to the bucket bank for others to use.
I am still waiting to hear back from pipercams in terms of their solution but happy to run the stock cams for the time being. Slightly easier to change cams over in the car than something like pistons!
Looks like I may be in a similar situation, reading this got me thinking (more worried actually) so checked the stock cams from the spare engine against the Piper fast road na cams that I have just got and yes the heal end(?) of the cam is significantly smaller, I might get away with it on the intake cam but I can't see it on the exhaust side. I will have to do a better more thorougher check one Sunday.
I can understand why they make the cams like this but it would be nice if you were told before you bought them, I did get them cheap from a third party seller who has now stopped trading so am probably up bu**erd but they will make nice lamp stands if nothing else.
Best thing is I have an other set as well so will have to check them, something in the back of my mind tells me that on that set it is only the inlet cam that is re-profiled but I've probably got that wrong.
Quote from: Mikeymead on May 30, 2020, 18:03Looks like I may be in a similar situation, reading this got me thinking (more worried actually) so checked the stock cams from the spare engine against the Piper fast road na cams that I have just got and yes the heal end(?) of the cam is significantly smaller, I might get away with it on the intake cam but I cant see it on the Exhaust side. I will have to do a better more thorougher check one Sunday.
I can understand why they make the cams like this but it would be nice if you were told before you bought them, I did get them cheap from a third party seller who has now stopped trading so am probably up bu**erd but they will make nice lamp stands if nothing else.
Best thing is I have an other set as well so will have to check them, something in the back of my mind tells me that on that set it is only the inlet cam that is re-profiled but I've probably got that wrong.
Think I bought from the same seller - will see what Pipercams say if they actually get back to me, I thought Pipercams were pretty good but I guess I am mistaken.
I did email them in the past asking if the first set I bought needed uprated springs and I did get a reply, maybe the current situation with Covid-19 might have something to do with the lack of replies?
Quote from: Mikeymead on May 31, 2020, 12:12I did email them in the past asking if the first set I bought needed uprated springs and I did get a reply, maybe the current situation with Covid-19 might have something to do with the lack of replies?
I think they are a bit slower to respond, will let you know if they get back to me though.
piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3 or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.
Quote from: jonbill on May 31, 2020, 15:59piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3 or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.
They are custom ground, Crower cams use a fresh blank for their cams, was expecting the same from Pipercams rather than just grinding a used camshaft - thought that they would have done some checking to see how they are usually clearanced before grinding away the base circle.
Quote from: jonbill on May 31, 2020, 15:59piper's website doesn't list mr2 mk3 or the 1zz engine at all, at least I can't find it.
I suspect Piper just reground cams to order from the people you bought from. IMO your beef is with them, not Piper.
You may well be right Jon, In my case I will have a better chance contacting aliens!
I've only ever seen pipers on a 2zz now that I think of it
So being slightly more up to date with work and having nothing better to do today I still went to my workshop to do some valve gap measuring with the three sets of cams and the cylinder head from my spare engine.
Here are the results:-
Cams Roc.pdf
At this moment I'm not sure how I will get over this as I don't think Buckets go big enough :-\
Caveat emptor! But it would seem that is not just once that seller got it wrong.
How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?
After watching the skid factory fitting the cams in the Mk 1 engine they used shims under the buckets to make the gaps up.
Different engine, granted but essentially the same principle.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on June 14, 2020, 16:53After watching the skid factory fitting the cams in the Mk 1 engine they used shims under the buckets to make the gaps up.
Different engine, granted but essentially the same principle.
Yes that's probably the way to do it, they faced the same issue on Project Binky, they were going to go shimless using 1zz buckets on a 3sgte but couldn't as the buckets wouldn't go thick enough so had to keep the shimmed buckets.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 16:42How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?
I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying.
Quote from: Mikeymead on June 14, 2020, 17:31Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 16:42How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?
I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying.
That's really rather poor. No offense m1tch :)
But if I wanted higher lift cams I'd want the lobes higher and with longer duration, not the actual cam ground down! That's cheating
Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 17:36Quote from: Mikeymead on June 14, 2020, 17:31Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 16:42How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?
I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying.
That's really rather poor. No offense m1tch :)
But if I wanted higher lift cams I'd want the lobes higher and with longer duration, not the actual cam ground down! That's cheating
Not m1tch's fault, we were both duped!, I suppose it keeps the costs down.
this is how cam regrinding works.
Quote from: Mikeymead on June 14, 2020, 17:50Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 17:36Quote from: Mikeymead on June 14, 2020, 17:31Quote from: shnazzle on June 14, 2020, 16:42How can the gaps be so big??
Does the camshaft need to be ground? I mean, it's off by miles. What diameter are the journals compared to stock?
I guess that these are reground stock cams, they get the greater lift by basically reducing the size of the cam heel. Therefore the gap has to be adjusted to compensate and the lift is increased. Quite cleaver really but also annoying.
That's really rather poor. No offense m1tch :)
But if I wanted higher lift cams I'd want the lobes higher and with longer duration, not the actual cam ground down! That's cheating
Not m1tch's fault, we were both duped!, I suppose it keeps the costs down.
I didn't mean it was Mitch's fault. I meant I didn't want to insult the Piper cams :)
Are Crowers reground or cast?
My Crowers are ground from new cores but there's two different Crowers to consider.
I am still awaiting a response back from Pipercams, apparently they have now relayed it to the development director, I sent all my measurements over and simply asked how I am meant to clearance the cams with the stock setup.
As mentioned already, it looks like Piper have reground used cams vs using new cores like Crower meaning that the base circle diameter has been reduced meaning that its basically impossible to clearance them with shimless buckets.
Options are either:
Use the Supertech buckets with shims
Use 5.5mm lash caps and grind down OEM buckets
To be able to run lash caps you actually need to remove material from the OEM buckets to then allow for the lash caps, think the smallest is 1mm so around 0.5mm needs to be removed from the 'post' inside the bucket - ironically you need a smaller bucket to then increase the overall shim and bucket stack.
Will update this thread once Pipercams get back to me - they are currently very short staffed.
Would shim under bucket 3SGTE followers fit?
Quote from: Mikeymead on June 19, 2020, 14:06Would shim under bucket 3SGTE followers fit?
yes, I believe they do. I saw it on telly. maybe it was project binky?
Quote from: Mikeymead on June 19, 2020, 14:06Would shim under bucket 3SGTE followers fit?
The 3SGTE and the 2JZ engines use the 1zz shimless buckets as upgrades so yes you can run either of those buckets and followers in the 1zz, however they are a downgrade from the shimless buckets as the shims can pop out at higher RPMs which is why people usually upgrade to 1zz shimless.
Quote from: m1tch on June 20, 2020, 10:44Quote from: Mikeymead on June 19, 2020, 14:06Would shim under bucket 3SGTE followers fit?
The 3SGTE and the 2JZ engines use the 1zz shimless buckets as upgrades so yes you can run either of those buckets and followers in the 1zz, however they are a downgrade from the shimless buckets as the shims can pop out at higher RPMs which is why people usually upgrade to 1zz shimless.
Is that so likely with shim under bucket types, I can definitely see it on shim over bucket ones.
Hi m1tch,
How did you get on with the cams in the end? Looking at getting a regrind for an N/A 1ZZ from Newman who are just around the corner from me (much cheaper than Crowe/Cat etc) and wondering what I should do about the buckets... did Piper ever get back to you?
TIA!