Looking at coilover options and quickly discovering that we don't have a whole lot to choose from. I don't necessarily want something super stiff, but I would like to lower the car - however, I prioritize performance over aesthetics, so any choice has to be good quality.
What I would love is an Ohlins Road & Track set like I have for my BMW. Simply sublime - simultaneously more comfortable on the street and more composed on the track. But no such thing exists for our cars. I guess Ohlins Japan did have a PCV set (as opposed to the newer DFV aka "Road & Track" kits) for the MR-S, but it has long since been discontinued and is extremely difficult to find in the States (although if I could find one cheap I'd be happy to send it for rebuilding).
What a lot of people seem to use is the BC coilovers. Normally I wouldn't give these a second look as my impression is that they're sort of a low-tier brand (and priced accordingly) but then I saw that they were used in the MR2 Championship spec-racing series you guys have. If they're used in real racing, they must be okay, no? Or is it just that they're cheap and expendable? Reviews on SpyderChat are pretty mixed, curious what you all have to say.
The only really quality solution that is easily obtainable off-the-shelf seems to be the KW V3s, but at a little more than twice the cost of the BCs, I figured I'd ask for opinions. I've seen almost nothing said about the KW's, but I trust the brand at least.
Thoughts?
can you elaborate on what "your" requirements are.
Street?
Track?
In my opinion (and experience) BC Racing and Meister R are far far too stiff for the road. I really didn't get on with them at all.
The spring rates seemed completely out of sync at low damping levels, leading to a curious and unpleasant pogo-ing motion.
For the record, they were good on track (very, very stiff), but for the road they needed less spring and more damper.
I didn't want to go back to springs and dampers, so I ended up going for a used set of TEIN Superstreets with EDFC from Japan.
You can literally feel the difference in damping sophistication. They are a great compromise for road and track. Having in-car damping adjustability is a real boon too. I couldn't be happier with them.
Another option. Some Americans with knowledge have done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI
I went for BCs with 4/6kg springs years ago. They've been on my car for about 6 years now and 50k miles. Never failed. No leaks. Nothing broken. Adjusting mechanism flawless. I've had some really pleasure out of them.
So for budget all-in coilovers, yes, they were worth every penny. I paid GBP642 delivered to my door. Another 20 for new rear droplinks.
Then MeisterR brought out the CRD model (5/7kg springs) and I had a ride and drove a couple and quite frankly it felt more compliant. Not as harsh. But not enough to really set it apart from BC who, like you say, had some pedigree in racing.
Then the CRD+ model came out and that was a notch better again. At this point I started wishing I had the CRD+. Bear in mind, I'm on softer springs than the MeisterR setups I've experienced. So I simply wouldn't entertain them with 5/7.
All the while, BC hasn't changed. No improvements, no nothing.
So if I had to choose a budget brand, it'd be MeisterR. I think it would make for a comfortable (enough) daily driver.
But, there's a reason the V3s are as much as they are. They're "proper" suspension. That's millions spent on R&D, dynos, race tracks, etc. Yes there's some name premium but the V3 kit leaves you without any doubt you're getting pretty much the best quality.
And now enter Jason's question... What are you going to do be doing with the car?
BCs are great and you'd really enjoy them I think (with 4/6kg springs). MeisterRs same. Maybe not as great on track but on rough roads, better.
So primarily this car is going to be used on the street, both for commuting in the city and for fun on some back roads. Ideally I will get some seat time at autocross events, but I don't currently have the time to seriously compete - it would just be for fun and as a safe way to learn the limits of this particular car. Probably no track days, at least not for the next two years as I'll be very busy with work (after that, who knows?).
San Diego city streets are rife with potholes and are generally in poor repair (at least that was the case when I lived there last, about six years ago), so I'm definitely not looking for something too stiff. I think this rules out the BCs. What appeals to me about the KWs, besides the reputation behind them, is the softer spring rates (3/5kg), which just might be the sweet spot between stock and track set ups.
The other possibility that someone mentioned is the Koni strut inserts, which could be paired with lowering springs from the likes of Eibach or H&R. This is kind of a close second place - the KWs win in terms of ride height adjustability and likely in terms of invested R&D as well - but a Koni-based set up runs about a third the cost of the KWs. However, the labor involved cannot be understated. Although I have no doubt of my ability to perform the "cut-a-strut" procedure, it is profoundly more complicated and time consuming than a true off-the-shelf solution like the KWs - and time, after all, is money.
If only there was a more reasonably priced product, like KW V1s - then it would be a no brainer. As it is, I'm still leaning towards the V3s as the best overall option currently on offer, but they run about as much as I paid for my Öhlins, and this was supposed to be my economical sports car. :)
You need KYB shocks and Tein springs.
Or just a full OEM suspension refresh, even...
3 options in my research.
Koni Sport damper inserts with your choice of springs - these are miles ahead of all coilovers for comfort and road use while still retaining good body control, only downside is lack of springs if wanting to track them hard, i use these with Teins and looks good height wise but too soft for serious track but do teh job, coupled with stiffer ARB helps a lot with that.
KW V3 coilovers - expensive but proper quality and researched system, more street biased than track and KW themselves market as a street coilover rather than track, however will be better than above for track due to firmer springs, comfort wise probably not as nice as Koni on softer settings but should be acceptable for most, i keep toying with a set to replace my Konis but so far havent made the jump as Konis are such good allrounder.
BC Coilovers- cheap and cheerful but generic damping and firm spring rates mean not the best for road use in terms of comfort unless you like a firm ride, ive used them on other cars but primarily for track where they do an ok job, much easier to make a suspension setup work on track compared to all the variables of public roads.
Option 4
Stock refresh kyb and teins as above.
I have been wondering what to do with my suspension. I have MeisterR coilovers and they are too firm for back road driving and you can get thrown off line by bounces on the worst roads.
I like the idea of the koni inserts but they are expensive and a bit of hassle to fit. Plus they rely on you knowing how to adjust them correctly (as coilovers do of course).
We can get kyb or sachs shocks but the sachs are more expensive and internet wisdom seems to say the sachs are softer than the kybs.
I am considering going back to kybs and tein springs myself as I think it will ultimately be better for what I use the car for. If I find too much body roll then I could think about bigger anti-roll bars.
I like the tein springs because they drop the car 4 mm more than the rear which compensates for the raised front on the stock set up.
Given that suspension is an item that wears out with time and mileage, I dont want to have a crazy expensive set up personally unless I knew it was right for me!
My #1 at the minute is definitely the Koni+H&R option.
For 2 reasons; compliance but I CAN adjust it for a bit more fun on flatter roads. And not having my teeth rattled out after 6 years would be a bonus.
I have to reiterate what I said somewhere else
@Bimmer-Bob...
I drove Carolyn's setup, which is fresh KYB and OEM springs, the whole lot refreshed and brand new,with a big mama middle brace and a TRD front strut brace and although I drove it for a limited amount it felt fantastic.
A LOT stiffer than than imagined it would be. Certainly not the soggy mess I was used to from aged stock suspension.
It's not to be underrated. It's not even night/day. It's much more of a difference than that. It's peak summer/deep winter.
Comfortable for even the most sensitive but corners felt controlled, firm and communicative. And I also know for a fact that Carolyn puts it through its paces and it performs absolutely fine.
I've never been a fan of the stock struts + Tein or TTE/Eibach setup because the stock struts don't seem to compensate well. The spring rates are the same, meaning a lot of scraping of the car on deep compressions. And there are a lot of those where I live. But I've never seen Tein+fresh KYB/stock. That may work well. Maybe it was just an effect of aged struts I was seeing.
We had one MR2 with reasonably fresh struts (25k miles) and TTE springs and quite frankly I found it stupid. Same rate but less spring,same weight on car... Seems daft.
Stock struts in good shape are ok but i always felt on mine it was a bit floaty at front end, changed to TEin springs and felt better but then i added the Koni sport dampers into the mix and it was night and day improvement!, to be fair i havent used brand new stock struts but the ones i had appeared to be in good order when removed but appreciate they wouldnt of been as good as new ones.
Its a shame Koni dont make a direct bolt on complete unit for these like they do on others as i think they would sell loads, many are put off by them being inserts with cut-a-strut to install, its a bit of a fiddle to cut your stock strut and replace etc with Koni but its a lot less work than it sounds, however you do need to have the tools and more know how than just swapping struts over.
I was tempted to start buying up old dampers to convert and sell on with Konis fitted but i just dont have the time at moment.
We have run stock springs with KYB and Konis, and Tein-S with KYB and Konis. The stock springs work nicely with the KYB, but the Koni are a bit better. However, the cost of the Konis may be hard to justify for a daily driver.
The Tein work "OK" with the KYB, but the Konis are much better. Unless cost is a big consideration, I would suggest going with the Konis with any lowering springs as the damping in the KYB doesn't match up very well with stiffer springs.
The Tein are not nearly as stiff as any of the common coilovers, but if you have a lot of potholes (we do), any lowering spring will reduce travel and ground clearance, and both could be issues.
I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
I can't back this up with any evidence but I was told the Teins were supposed to be super harsh. Is that not true?
If it's not then they're firmly back on my list. Especially with EDFC.
@jvanzyl second opinion? I've never actually asked you.
Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
Tein superstreet is no longer made and hasnt been for some time, buying used suspension at best of times is a gamble but importing it from Japan is even more so and its not cheap either.
Tein monosport is available (just!) for these car new but its expensive and more track focused, from research i did damper is much better than Superstreet etc and it will take some softer springs to make it more road biased, however for the price of it KW V3 is better option if mainly road use imo
Ive used Tein superstreet on my GT86 and while it was ok and better than BC etc it wasnt anything special, certainly not worth gambling with importing a used kit from japan, i see there is a set on ebay a moment in uk from a breaker but at 750 i think its a bit much but was tempted.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 12:44Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
I can't back this up with any evidence but I was told the Teins were supposed to be super harsh. Is that not true?
If it's not then they're firmly back on my list. Especially with EDFC. @jvanzyl second opinion? I've never actually asked you.
I've got the Tein Monosport with EDFC2, it is defininetly stiffer but I also have poly bushing all round.. I've love to know what it's like with standard bushing. The great benefit to me is being able to switch from "cruising" to "sport" with the push of a button. i.e. coming off a motorway and going onto a roundabout system, having a blast, then rejoining the motorway and going back to "cruise"..
I think they are very good, but I do think that going with stock bushing refresh would make them even better.
I've unfortunately bought T1R's which seem to last a lifetime but at least they're cheap to replace with all the punctures. Next tyres will likely be yoko's but the new TR1's sound (in theory) to be better so we'll see what it's like in terms of costs.. I've got the snelbaard breastplate, plus the TTE mid brace and the UR front strut brace so it really does handle fantastically when on the boil, limited only by my driving talent and the current softer side walls..
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 12:44Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
I can't back this up with any evidence but I was told the Teins were supposed to be super harsh. Is that not true?
If it's not then they're firmly back on my list. Especially with EDFC. @jvanzyl second opinion? I've never actually asked you.
Absolutely not harsh at all. There's a real quality to the damping.
Miles better on the road than any Meister/BC that I have tried.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 21, 2020, 12:49Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan.
It's a bit more hassle than buying from the UK, but it's easier than it's ever been now.
They really are fantastic - I can't praise them enough. They are great on the road, and more than enough (for me) on track, and most of you know I do a lot of trackdays.
Tein superstreet is no longer made and hasnt been for some time, buying used suspension at best of times is a gamble but importing it from Japan is even more so and its not cheap either.
Tein monosport is available (just!) for these car new but its expensive and more track focused, from research i did damper is much better than Superstreet etc and it will take some softer springs to make it more road biased, however for the price of it KW V3 is better option if mainly road use imo
Ive used Tein superstreet on my GT86 and while it was ok and better than BC etc it wasnt anything special, certainly not worth gambling with importing a used kit from japan, i see there is a set on ebay a moment in uk from a breaker but at 750 i think its a bit much but was tempted.
I'd have to disagree about the Gamble comment. From my many experiences of buying used car parts from Japan, they are SIGNIFICANTLY better described, and much more honestly marketed than anything I've bought elsewhere. They go to lengths to photograph and describe any flaws.
Really you think buying something used isnt a gamble ? of course it is no matter what the item is and especially on suspension when you cant check to see if damping is working as it should be etc, i do agree that used parts in Japan are often better condition and described well/pictures etc but on coilovers all you can see is that collars for adjustment look ok and basic paint condition, not how well it functions etc which even seller may not be aware of so even more of a gamble, sound like you got lucky and pleased that you are are happy with them :D
Ive been importing used and new parts from Japan for over 25years for my cars and can tell you there is plenty of rubbish over there as well, personally on something like a low budget coilover aka Tein Superstreet which cant be easily rebuilt if there is a damper issue i would say gamble is too big for me, each to their own though :)
I would like to try the Monosport before its discontinued and use a softer spring setup to make it more road/sprint biased, cost is the problem though and as i can get KW v3 at reasonable trade discount i would just go with that if i changed.
last I checked sending Teins off for a rebuild was about £400?
Quote from: jvanzyl on May 21, 2020, 14:01last I checked sending Teins off for a rebuild was about £400?
Depends on which ones i think and some are not rebuild-able so needs a new body, pretty sure your Monosports can be opened up and rebuild though and typically looking at anything from £100 to £300+ per damper from memory, just depends what is needed and if just seals and oil its not so bad, but if bent rods etc it adds up, often its cheaper to replace the complete unit hence why some of the lower models in range they dont offer a rebuild service and just replace the damper.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 21, 2020, 13:42Really you think buying something used isnt a gamble ?
That's absolutely not what I said - at all.
I was referencing the fact that Japanese auctions are higher quality and more honest than most, which you then went on to also elude to.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - in which case - my mistake.
My friend Andy (the former proprietor) of Bonsai Garage recently rebuilt his Tein Superstreets for less than £150.00 with genuine parts from here: https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html
If you can do it yourself - it's very inexpensive.
Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 14:35Quote from: thetyrant on May 21, 2020, 13:42Really you think buying something used isnt a gamble ?
That's absolutely not what I said - at all.
I was referencing the fact that Japanese auctions are higher quality and more honest than most, which you then went on to also elude to.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - in which case - my mistake.
My friend Andy (the former proprietor) of Bonsai Garage recently rebuilt his Tein Superstreets for less than £150.00 with genuine parts from here: https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html
If you can do it yourself - it's very inexpensive.
Well you did say "I'd have to disagree about the Gamble comment" which i took as you thought it wasnt a gamble ;) , its no issue though and i dont want to start an argument about it, if you had good luck with them and are happy thats the main thing :)
I was mainly trying to react to your original comment "I honestly don't know why more people don't do what I did and import TEIN Superstreet from Japan" there is good reason and mainly that its not so simple for most of us, knowing where to look and how to translate etc can be quite a minefield, also the risk of buying used suspension on top of that to me makes it quite a gamble in my eyes that is all.
Having a good contact out there is the key, especially if the auction/for sale text looks like just a collection of lines and squiggles like it does to me :D
Thanks for all the opinions. A few thoughts:
(1) The main advantages of KYB are cost and convenience. They are essentially an OEM replacement as I understand, meaning they will bolt right up (good) but offer similar damping (not so good if changing springs). Then you throw on some springs, but you have no idea if they're properly matched or if you've reduced the service life of the damper by over-springing (and, if so, you must factor earlier replacement in against any initial cost savings). Sticking with OEM springs is of course an option, but that won't meet my requirement for a lower ride height.
(2) Konis are still very much on the table. In terms of price, they are a relatively small leap from they KYBs and are designed from the outset to be run with slightly stiffer springs, like lowering springs (in fact, they sell a kit already paired with Eibach springs, which would probably be my choice). I agree with whoever said that Koni would sell loads of these if they were full strut bodies rather than just inserts. In fact, I think that they would be the de facto strut choice by many people for a primarily street-driven car, and we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.
But, of course, Koni does not make such a strut and only makes inserts, which means more time in the garage, fiddling at the work bench. And, frankly, I'm not thrilled with the Frankenstein nature of the cut-a-strut installation.
I'm curious why so many recommend the Teins over other brands, like Eibach or H&R? I would have assumed there to be little difference between them, but maybe I'm wrong?
(3) Sill a dearth of first-hand experience with the KWs, although if the Tein SuperStreets are so good with their 3/6 kg spring rates, I'm inclined to think the KWs would be even better, given their slightly greater street bias (spring rates are 3/5 kg). But that cost...
Still a lot to think about. The KYB/Tein combo would be low-cost and low-hassle and probably get me close to a ride height I like without sacrificing ride quality. The Konis would be a step up and probably work better with lowering springs. The cost is over double the KYBs, but still not a huge issue at this range; the penalty in terms of blood, sweat, and tears shed is pretty significant, it seems.
There's no getting around the fact that the KWs are expensive, and I don't pretend to need the double adjustability. Ride height is of course adjustable for fine tuning, for whatever that's worth (I suspect an off-the-shelf lowering spring would be satisfactory). Streetability is always an issue with coilovers, but in my experience there is a world of difference between budget coilovers and premium ones - and the only complaint I've heard about the KWs (other than price) is that they're too soft for serious track work, which is actually a plus in my scenario.
There is an argument to be made to get the best product one can afford in the very beginning ("buy once, cry once"), but also an argument to go with the cheapest and easiest solution that gets the job done. Will have to keep mulling it over...
there is a set of Tein Super Street with controller on ebay for £750 with 3 months warranty at the minute!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-MR2-TEIN-SUPER-STREET-ELECTRONIC-ADJUSTABLE-COILOVER-KIT-DAMPER-00-06/383479084336?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
Quote from: Alex Knight on May 21, 2020, 12:41Absolutely not harsh at all. There's a real quality to the damping.
Miles better on the road than any Meister/BC that I have tried.
I also have the Tein Super Street. They are not harsh at all and actually on the soft side where you can actually use sway bars to tune the behavior. As Alex pointed out you can feel them moving to dampen bumps and irregularities on the road well to stabilize the car. They are firmer than the Koni inserts but actually dampen better which makes them feel smoother and composed especially at the limit where it inspires confidence.
Every application for the Tein SS are different so they cannot be compared and what they researched for the MR-S was well done.
I had mine rebuilt at 60k miles because I thought it was time but after they received the dampers the tech said they were fine and once I got them back after the rebuild they were the same. The reason for this is the twin tube design which can take a beating on the street and last a long time. Monotube especially the cheap stuff doesn't fair as well and I have seen several sets of locked up units especially the inverted type.
There are only a few good street researched sets left on the market and what they all have in common is being twin tube.
If I was in the market today the only two I would consider is the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3. Both have good support and can be rebuilt. There is a big difference between a researched set and a cheap coilover and its not a marginal thing based on budget.
This is the predecessor to the Tein SS. From what Tein told me they improved on their coilover design for the SS by eliminating the helper springs so they would be more street friendly and so they could use the EDFC.
Quote from: Dev on May 21, 2020, 18:33If I was in the market today the only two I would consider is the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3. Both have good support and can be rebuilt. There is a big difference between a researched set and a cheap coilover and its not a marginal thing based on budget.
At this point, I'm strongly favoring the KWs. I just don't see myself regretting that decision much. About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins, but those are pretty hard to find (and navigating the Japanese auction sites is a little daunting).
For those who know...
What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?
Quote from: Bimmer-Bob on May 21, 2020, 20:14About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins...
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).
Another thing is that my experience with Ohlins is limited to the newer Dual Flow Valve (DFV) design, which was not available on MR2 fitments.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 20:16For those who know...
What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?
I'm not an expert, but I believe an over-dampened car would not allow for full suspension travel (i.e., the spring would be more resistant to compression). It seems like that might result in either a jarring ride or loss of traction on bumps (or both). However, I doubt a change from 4 kg to 3kg is significant enough to be problematic.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 20:16For those who know...
What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?
Yes it would be over dampened. The springs need to be matched to the valving.
A friend of mine did that with his BCs and although the ride was less harsh it was not very good.
Quote from: Bimmer-Bob on May 21, 2020, 20:34Quote from: Bimmer-Bob on May 21, 2020, 20:14About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins...
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).
Another thing is that my experience with Ohlins is limited to the newer Dual Flow Valve (DFV) design, which was not available on MR2 fitments.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 20:16For those who know...
What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?
I'm not an expert, but I believe an over-dampened car would not allow for full suspension travel (i.e., the spring would be more resistant to compression). It seems like that might result in either a jarring ride or loss of traction on bumps (or both). However, I doubt a change from 4 kg to 3kg is significant enough to be problematic.
I guess really it's a change from 5 to 3 in the front and 7 to 4 rear.
If I were to go from what it ships with.
Jarring is the opposite of what I'd want to achieve but if the struts can cope well...
Quote from: Dev on May 21, 2020, 20:44Yes it would be over dampened. The springs need to be matched to the valving.
A friend of mine did that with his BCs and although the ride was less harsh it was not very good.
Well, I tried.
I wonder if going 4/6kg actually made it worse for me
Quote from: Bimmer-Bob on May 21, 2020, 20:14Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).
You are on the right track. There is no doubt that Ohlins makes great suspension based on reputation but it depends on the application. Here is the dirty little secret I found out. There are many so called forum race car equationist that show shock dynos in the internets for comparisons and to appear smart. What they do not understand is you cannot judge a coilover system just by looking at the dyno graph especially for a street application because there are trade offs.
A excellent strut that shows very little cross talk and other metrics that show them to be superior are the reasons why they need to be rebuilt more often.
A good street coilover system doesn't need have the best strut dynos but they should be properly researched as well as the OEM.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 20:45Well, I tried.
I wonder if going 4/6kg actually made it worse for me
I don't want to say no. The friend who changed out his springs to the rates you listed said it was much better than the harder spring rates his BCs came with which was unbearable. It might be ok as a compromise of being better as far as ride quality but I wouldn't expect the same thing as a researched set. Since they were never researched it cant get any worse so why not try, you might like them.
Where the BCs fail is having so many adjustments for you to match with various spring rates.
The way Tein does it, they will re-valve for the spring rates they provide during the rebuild. I didn't go for it because the tech said it would be too hard.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 21, 2020, 20:16For those who know...
What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?
It all depends on the damper range and ability, i did a similar thing with the Teins on my GT86 after another forum member raved about it, i didnt like and it and just felt wrong somehow no matter what i did with damping so ended up switching springs back before swapping it for Ohlins DFV kit which transformed the car.
Ohlins dont make a proper kit for these cars unfortunately, there is the fabled JDM Ohlins kits but like a lot of Japanese coilover they are more circuit spec generally and very firm from what ive seen.
I made a cheeky offer on those Tein SS on ebay as if i could get them cheap enough be interesting to try them, im always up for trying other kits as only way you know if something works for you is to try them yourself, it was a fair bit less than asking price as they are a bit of a unknown and look to have a few years/rust etc on them so could well need some work to get back to tiptop, offer was declined but looks like they are willing to move a bit if anyone else fancies them :)
Quote from: thetyrant on May 22, 2020, 15:15I made a cheeky offer on those Tein SS on ebay as if i could get them cheap enough be interesting to try them, im always up for trying other kits as only way you know if something works for you is to try them yourself, it was a fair bit less than asking price as they are a bit of a unknown and look to have a few years/rust etc on them so could well need some work to get back to tiptop, offer was declined but looks like they are willing to move a bit if anyone else fancies them :)
Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this. I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.
Quote from: Dev on May 22, 2020, 16:08Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this. I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.
There is a Tein service centre here in UK yes and ive emailed them to get an idea on price but looking at there guidelines on link below basic service is going to be around £55+vat per damper if its just seals and oil, good chance will need some other bits so i reckon could be £100+ each, add that to cost of kit pushes them upto near what i can get a new kw v3 kit for so for me probably best to just hold on and maybe try those next, thats if i dont fit spring collars to current Koni setup next so i can up spring rate a tad on those, which is all they really need for my usage.
Link -https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html
Quote from: thetyrant on May 22, 2020, 16:16Quote from: Dev on May 22, 2020, 16:08Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this. I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.
There is a Tein service centre here in UK yes and ive emailed them to get an idea on price but looking at there guidelines on link below basic service is going to be around £55+vat per damper if its just seals and oil, good chance will need some other bits so i reckon could be £100+ each, add that to cost of kit pushes them upto near what i can get a new kw v3 kit for so for me probably best to just hold on and maybe try those next, thats if i dont fit spring collars to current Koni setup next so i can up spring rate a tad on those, which is all they really need for my usage.
Link -https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html
I also think its better to just get the KW v3. There is so much more to the KWs than the Teins like like double adjustability and better damping. The Tein dampers settings are useless like most budget coilovers and thats why they work best in a very narrow range but in that limited scope they do a great job.
I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10
It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.
Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it
Quote from: Dev on May 22, 2020, 21:57I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10
It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.
See the rear wing?
I knéw I am right :-)
No seriously, for the road the OEM KYBs are spot on. As was observed, not the same as 100k kms ones, renewing would be an upgrade. The Sportivo kit was a relatively tepic step for a reason.
Quote from: Dev on May 22, 2020, 21:57I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10
It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.
I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.
Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on May 22, 2020, 22:08Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it
Wonder if it was someone on this thread and what they paid, the seller offered it to me for £675 after i initially offered £600, even that was too much in my eyes really so didnt go for it at 675. If it turns out to be in perfect order it was a good buy though.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 23, 2020, 09:03I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.
This is a véry particular use; rácing on a mountain B-road. Yes, pretty rough real world. They know the track like the proverbial back of their hand ánd they drive maximum attack style for spectacle; it´s a video show after all.
You cán take info from it. Especially what is explained in the Spirit videos. Take that as general rule of thumb and then it is confirmation of pretty basic knowledge.
Take these Touge Battle vids. as entertainment with only a limited and specific use comparative value.
In thís video I find it interesting to see what goes wrong with the MR-S. Lift off oversteer and yes probably because too stiff at the rear (still only half as stiff as for circuit use btw).
Bottom line is that you should mount a rear wing .....
Quote from: thetyrant on May 23, 2020, 09:03I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.
Which JDM coilovers in particular are too stiff? The Japanese make various products for street and track. I would consider the Ohlins to be track oriented.
As far as street stuff goes they are soft and often twin tube design.
1. Tein Super Street Discontinued
2. Apexi world sport old version made in Japan Disconitnued
3. JIC Magic Discontinued
4. Cusco Zero 2
All of these products have been reported to be too soft for the track but are fine for people that are starting out and primarily for street use. Buying track suspension is on the owner for making an unwise choice and the Japanese manufactures understand that distinction. It goes without saying that none of these coilovers options including the Koni inserts are any good if you live on rough roads. My Teins are so soft that I need a 1" sway bar for the front and a adjustable sway bar for the rear.
In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64.
What I like about him is his honesty about a particular cars set up. In that same American Togue event he points out problem areas in other cars suspension and doesn't give out false complements.
Quote from: Dev on May 23, 2020, 13:03In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64.
Orido is impressive level too.
Ditto Taro san, Techno Pro Spirit owner himslef.
I am relatively good but not near their shade. Period. It means I need bétter, read softer, suspension on the road as I need more band width of warning.
When mine need replacing I have no doubt: OEM KYB.
Quote from: Petrus on May 23, 2020, 13:24Quote from: Dev on May 23, 2020, 13:03In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64.
Orido is impressive level too.
I am relatively good but not near their shade. Period. It means I need bétter, read softer, suspension on the road as I need more band width of warning.
When mine need replacing I have no doubt: OEM KYB.
I believe they are all professional race car drivers and they go all out to the best of their capability but it's usually a very narrow margin between them and thats is why the cars can be compared and commented on but they are certainly not stock. What I do like about the events is they can compare and contrast a cars potential with modifications and tuning. Tsuchiya is in a different class compared to those guys because he is legendary. I was just looking up his credentials and they are amazing. He was a consultant for the development of the GT86 and currently a consultant for Honda tuning. His Le Mans career isn't too bad either.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 23, 2020, 09:15Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on May 22, 2020, 22:08Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it
Wonder if it was someone on this thread and what they paid, the seller offered it to me for £675 after i initially offered £600, even that was too much in my eyes really so didnt go for it at 675. If it turns out to be in perfect order it was a good buy though.
I just had a look at them. I would have passed. I seen ones in better condition for less on my side. The only way I would buy a set of any coilovers is if they looked pristine without a salvage history. Accidents are known to bend rods in the damper. They may work but it will not be optimal and down the road you will have leaking seals. I have had mine since 2005 and although they are not pristine anymore they have faired better then those without any rust.
I gained a newfound appreciation for my BCs actually since I realised I've had them for 6 years and they've done over 50k miles.
That's not bad going in my eyes for budget coilies that get used quite hard.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 23, 2020, 14:22I gained a newfound appreciation for my BCs actually since I realised I've had them for 6 years and they've done over 50k miles.
That's not bad going in my eyes for budget coilies that get used quite hard.
Do you have the inverted type or the regular?
Quote from: Dev on May 23, 2020, 14:57Quote from: shnazzle on May 23, 2020, 14:22I gained a newfound appreciation for my BCs actually since I realised I've had them for 6 years and they've done over 50k miles.
That's not bad going in my eyes for budget coilies that get used quite hard.
Do you have the inverted type or the regular?
Just cheapest of the cheap. BR-RA, with rubber mounts and 4/6kg springs.
Softest setup I could get.
But... It has actually go me looking at their high end series.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 23, 2020, 15:29Quote from: Dev on May 23, 2020, 14:57Quote from: shnazzle on May 23, 2020, 14:22I gained a newfound appreciation for my BCs actually since I realised I've had them for 6 years and they've done over 50k miles.
That's not bad going in my eyes for budget coilies that get used quite hard.
Do you have the inverted type or the regular?
Just cheapest of the cheap. BR-RA, with rubber mounts and 4/6kg springs.
Softest setup I could get.
But... It has actually go me looking at their high end series.
If you are happy with what you have thats all that matters. I have had the pleasure of having driven many set ups for this car, sometimes twice or thrice for the same dampers. One of the best ones was the TRD Sportivo and although it was on the soft side it was very well balanced and thats what I care about more than stiffness. Its too bad they never made a budgeted line of researched dampers for the street similar to these as that would have bridged the gap from spending close over $2k on the KWs.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 23, 2020, 09:15Quote from: KRAMSNEHPETS on May 22, 2020, 22:08Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it
Wonder if it was someone on this thread and what they paid, the seller offered it to me for £675 after i initially offered £600, even that was too much in my eyes really so didnt go for it at 675. If it turns out to be in perfect order it was a good buy though.
They were going to do a deal at £675, but some one jumped in and hit the buy it now! price
I realise this is an old thread
Did anyone ever buy the KW V3 ....if so, what are their impressions of how good/bad?
My current set up of 2yo Kybs springs + shocks have now done circa 20k miles and have been v satisfacory, but just may consider the KW's in the not too distant future
Unless mistaken from your profile
@Bugster_MR2 , you have KW V3 coilovers installed. Can you give your impressions of how good/bad they are, are they value for money in your opinion? etc etc
Quote from: Gibla on May 27, 2025, 21:31Unless mistaken from your profile @Bugster_MR2 , you have KW V3 coilovers installed. Can you give your impressions of how good/bad they are, are they value for money in your opinion? etc etc
Hey Gibla
Correct, have had them on for quite a few years now. I installed them and set them up as per KWs recommendation and haven't fiddled with them since. I've taken the car 20 rounds around the Nürburgring and a few trackdays at small tracks here in Norway. For that kind of use I am 100% satisfied with them. For daily driving around town and on bumpy sideroads, they are definitely on the harsh side. I guess it is possible to adjust them a bit to regain some comfort, but for a daily driver I would always prefer shocks and springs instead of coilovers, really.
What are you using your car for?
Regarding value for money, these were the only ones I could find with TÜV approval at the time of purchase, which is a necessity over here. Hence, I did not consider other coilover brands without approval. That costs a bit extra, but worth it for me.
Bug
Quote from: Bugster_MR2 on June 3, 2025, 09:14What are you using your car for?
Would be 99.9% road use only, so I will take your advice and stick with shocks + springs .....cheers 4 the feedback given sir
Quote from: Gibla on June 3, 2025, 11:56Would be 99.9% road use only, so I will take your advice and stick with shocks + springs .....cheers 4 the feedback given sir
Good choice IMHO. I installed a set of new KYBs and H&R 30mm springs on my second MR2 last year. Loving it for the daily drive and twisty mountain roads. Retains most of the comfort. :) 👍
We are running H&R springs with Koni inserts on our PFL MR2. We started with KYB, but the damping didn't match well with stiffer springs. We also have a FL MR2 with stock springs and Konis, and on fairly smooth roads they ride about the same. The H&R shine in the twisties.